Thread: improve group play and instances?

Just a general question.. what are your ideas about how group play could be improved?

I got inspired to this thread by other threads discussing xp gain and level cap. After reading so many posts with valid arguments + some self reflection, I think the greatest problem we have is the way group play is going. It doesn't really matter if a new level cap comes every year or every two years, eventually old instances will become obsolete and quite a few old instances have already become obsolete.

It is a good step in the right direction from turbine to make more instances scalable but I think this can't be the end of the story. It makes instances interesting again for cap level chars, but for exampel, if someone wants to do an annuminas instance at lvl 40 while he is questing there, it will be hard to impossible to find others at nearly same level for a group.

90% of the time I play solo and I'm glad that it's possible to get through the game without being forced to spend hours and hours trying to find a group. On the other side I do like grouping, too, and then I don't wanna be forced to go solo. I have my first toon in Dunland and usually quest there duo with my best friend. It is rather annoying that every few quests down the epic story line we have to ungroup for a solo instance. And while questing solo is pretty easy most of the time, questing duo gets rather boring and is no challange whatsoever. But I do see very many people who do quest duo, so I think a lot of people are willing to work in small groups rather than be solo all the time.


So my suggestions are:
-use inspiration again like in the old story line, giving people a choice to solo or group
-give people a choice to play any instances with 6 or 3 man or maybe even duo - much like skirmishes (this could again be accomplished by adding inspiration when ever you run a 6 man instance with less than 6 man)
-make regular questing just a bit harder. no 6 man quests like in angmar where you can never find groups anymore... I'm thinking about 3 man and duo quest. 3 man quests should be ok and relatively easy for three chars, but also quite possible to do for only two people. Just in the same manner duo quests should be difficult but doable if you choose to do them solo.

Oh btw, I don't want to change any raids for you, I'm only talking about regular quests and instances

Originally Posted by Smartig

-use inspiration again like in the old story line, giving people a choice to solo or group

These instances become solo instances. Nobody will do them in a group. The design and scripting has to be reworked so that a single member of all nine classes can complete the instance. One character with Inspired Greatness is much weaker than a group of 6.

Essentially they all turn into tank and spanks where the opponents are so weak even the squishy classes can accomplish the tank and spank. Advanced techniques like aggro, keeping opponents apart, crowd control ... can not be used.

The current Volume 1 Epic Group Instances had all the fun removed out them when they became soloable.

I would prefer they go ahead and make them a solo instance with a duo option. That way you can't face roll one of these instances with a 3 person group - DPS, Healer and Tank.

Originally Posted by Smartig

-give people a choice to play any instances with 6 or 3 man or maybe even duo - much like skirmishes (this could again be accomplished by adding inspiration when ever you run a 6 man instance with less than 6 man)

Same problem as above. Change them to solo instances and be done with it.

Originally Posted by Smartig

-make regular questing just a bit harder. no 6 man quests like in angmar where you can never find groups anymore... I'm thinking about 3 man and duo quest. 3 man quests should be ok and relatively easy for three chars, but also quite possible to do for only two people. Just in the same manner duo quests should be difficult but doable if you choose to do them solo.

The landscape group quests were taken out because nobody does the quests. It is wasted development effort creating content that isn't used.

Summary - I enjoy group content. I don't raid much. I do not find raid instances to be fun and compelling content. You change all the 3 and 6 person content to have a solo option. I will not have group instances to do any more. The game becomes a fully solo game.

There are plenty of better single player games like Skyrim. The allure of Lotro is things like:

1) Kinships and friends for chatting
2) Grouping to instances
3) Solo landscape content which depending on my schedule I try to duo with friends.
4) Lot of content

IMHO - The group content is throw away content. It is designed to be used for a year. It is replaced by new content. It does not really bother me. Often I end up doing a specific instance so many times, I am bored to tears. If see the inside of School of Tham Mirdan again, it will be too soon.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

I would prefer they go ahead and make them a solo instance with a duo option.

I would be ok with that.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Summary - I enjoy group content. I don't raid much. I do not find raid instances to be fun and compelling content.

same here

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You change all the 3 and 6 person content to have a solo option. I will not have group instances to do any more. The game becomes a fully solo game.

There are plenty of better single player games like Skyrim.

I don't know if you misunderstood me.. but it is not my intent at all to remove group instances - rather the opposite. I want more group content for small groups and/or duos because it is so hard to find bigger groups for anything that is not end game. I wasn't talking about a solo option for instances, but even if there was one doesn't mean people would not run it as groups anymore. You can do skirmishes solo or duo or with however many people you prefer. Yet at least on my server, it is very common for people to do skirmishes as a raid because it's easier and the reward is better. It could be done the same way for instances, it would not effect group play much, only give an option.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

The allure of Lotro is things like:
1) Kinships and friends for chatting
2) Grouping to instances
3) Solo landscape content which depending on my schedule I try to duo with friends.
4) Lot of content

again.. exactly the same here

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

IMHO - The group content is throw away content. It is designed to be used for a year. It is replaced by new content. It does not really bother me. Often I end up doing a specific instance so many times, I am bored to tears. If see the inside of School of Tham Mirdan again, it will be too soon.

I'm not sure why you are against inspiration when you are sick and tired of old content anyways. That group content is throw away content is exactly my problem. Especially when leveling a toon and knowing that I can't do any fun group content for another 50 levels or so. So maybe inspiration is not perfect, but it's better than nothing.. and it's better than waiting hours or days to find someone willing to join you in an old low level instance.

Originally Posted by Smartig

I don't know if you misunderstood me.. but it is not my intent at all to remove group instances - rather the opposite. I want more group content for small groups and/or duos because it is so hard to find bigger groups for anything that is not end game. I wasn't talking about a solo option for instances, but even if there was one doesn't mean people would not run it as groups anymore. You can do skirmishes solo or duo or with however many people you prefer. Yet at least on my server, it is very common for people to do skirmishes as a raid because it's easier and the reward is better. It could be done the same way for instances, it would not effect group play much, only give an option.

You bring up Skirmishes. Skirmishes are a collection of four different instances on the same map. You have a solo, 3, 6 and 12 person instance. The duo is a scaled 3 person instance.

Turbine did try to create two versions of some instances. The group instances in Volume 1, Book 1 and 2 come in a solo and six person version. Same map. Two instances. Volume 2, Book 8 is done the same way. There is a solo and 3 person version. Same map. Two instances.

The Volume 2, Book 8 instances have different rewards depending on whether you do the much more difficult group version or the solo version.

Since Skirmishes were designed for solo character even with scaling and manual redesign they do not scale up properly in difficulty for large size models. This situation is very apparent when you get to the Raid versions. You find six person groups (when you are a well trained team) face rolling the Raid Skirmishes.

Originally Posted by Smartig

I'm not sure why you are against inspiration when you are sick and tired of old content anyways.

It makes the content a face roll. It is no longer fun. It becomes something I can do while watching "Game of Thrones" on the labtop next to me. For the solo version. If I go in with a group, then it is even more a face roll. I gone thru many an Inspired Greatness instance with 3 using only auto attacks. Sometimes some aggro skills are required to keep the weak dumbo Key Stone cop Ranger from dieing on me.

In summary, I do not mind if Turbine provides a solo version of these instances with reduced rewards. Turbine obviously doesn't have the resources. Turbine has scaling tech. Turbine only released a single level for the "In your Absence" cluster, OD, Draigoch (which was supposed to be a level 65 instance).

Hence, my position that Turbine is deliberately designing content that is supposed to last one year before throw away. It is targeted for level 65 or 75 or ... level characters with no "Future safe concept" planned.

Final thoughts, I think we are probably stuck in the "agree to disagree" rut. I am fine with this situation. Inspired Greatness does its job of proving the ability for very poorly equipped characters played by low skill customers the ability to complete instances. But as a solo mechanism for 3, 6 and 12 instances - it does not work. You have to run the group experience to get something that a IG will allow a customer to complete the instance.

I too enjoy both solo and group content. I have also find it difficult to find people for lower level group content.

My recommendation would be increase the number of people who could play at lower levels then individuals could appeal to a larger group in the kin or wide world to get a group. The reason it is easy to find people at level cap is that a lot of people are your level. I think group play would be improved if people had an ability to set there characters to a lower level. This would increase the amount of people who could play at or around level 40 in Annuminas or 50 in Angmar because kinmates or nice people could revert back to a lower level and join you without ruining the challenge. This would also reopen up all the old level cap areas and lower level instances that don't get played much.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

It makes the content a face roll. It is no longer fun.

Well if for example you are lvl 40 and you want to do tomb of elendil then you just will not find a group for that. Even more than a year ago I had to search several hours on several days until I found a group. What will usually happen is that you either don't play the instance at all, or you accept help from a friendly high level char. I once wanted to do garth agarwen with my warden hoping to learn a bit about group play and tanking, but after some time the leader invited a high level loremaster. He soloed through the whole instance and every one else just tried to keep up with the speed and was happy to get a single strike on an enemy. Now THAT is boring.
Well my thoughts are not stuck with inspiration. I can compromise like simply adding a 3 person option for instances. Or maybe only activate inspiration once the content has seen one or two more expansions and can thus be safely considered "old" content.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Hence, my position that Turbine is deliberately designing content that is supposed to last one year before throw away. It is targeted for level 65 or 75 or ... level characters with no "Future safe concept" planned.

Why would they put so much work in designing instances and later put again much work into scaling instances if they were only throw away content?

Originally Posted by BitzM

I think group play would be improved if people had an ability to set there characters to a lower level. This would increase the amount of people who could play at or around level 40 in Annuminas or 50 in Angmar because kinmates or nice people could revert back to a lower level and join you without ruining the challenge. This would also reopen up all the old level cap areas and lower level instances that don't get played much.

I have had the exact same idea I even think that would be the perfekt solution. Only I think downscaling characters would be something much harder to accomplish than scaling an instance for three persons or adding inspiration

Originally Posted by Smartig

Just a general question.. what are your ideas about how group play could be improved?

I think the greatest problem we have is the way group play is going. ... And while questing solo is pretty easy most of the time, questing duo gets rather boring and is no challange whatsoever. But I do see very many people who do quest duo, so I think a lot of people are willing to work in small groups rather than be solo all the time.

So my suggestions are:
-use inspiration again like in the old story line, giving people a choice to solo or group
-give people a choice to play any instances with 6 or 3 man or maybe even duo - much like skirmishes (this could again be accomplished by adding inspiration when ever you run a 6 man instance with less than 6 man)
-make regular questing just a bit harder. no 6 man quests like in angmar where you can never find groups anymore... I'm thinking about 3 man and duo quest. 3 man quests should be ok and relatively easy for three chars, but also quite possible to do for only two people. Just in the same manner duo quests should be difficult but doable if you choose to do them solo.

Agreed, you have some good suggestions. I was disappointed to see almost no attention in this game given to duos, and duos must be a common way of playing. And even Small Fellowship (3-man) quests are much too sparse and have too many solo quests in between them. Solo quests are much too easy for 2-man or 3-man groups, and it gets annoying to always seek out red level or higher quests (some of which you don't qualify for yet anyway).

Overall what I would like to see is some simple scaling up of monster stats (morale, damage) for all the landscape monsters and landscape quests, based on the number of players in your fellowship (from 1-6). RPGs have been doing this for decades now (e.g. Diablo). Sure, it's not ideal, but it's easy to implement and at least duos and 3-man teams would have a little more challenge when doing the normal solo questing, and not getting totally bored with landscape quest content that is far too easy for multiple players as is currently the case (solo quests seem like 80% or more of the game).

Originally Posted by Smartig

I have had the exact same idea I even think that would be the perfekt solution. Only I think downscaling characters would be something much harder to accomplish than scaling an instance for three persons or adding inspiration

You are probably right that it would be much harder to scale back characters than to change "an Instance". The advantage to a scaling back approach would be that it is a bigger one time fix and then across the board all the instances and quests and other unscaled game content is fixed. No going back and making Forges or the Grand Stair scalable because people can go back to lvl 60 and play it if they want. None of the Isengard stuff would need to be touch ever because people could roleback to 75 once they hit 125 if they wanted.