Thread: My first impressions of Moors- A LMs perspective

Howdy fellow moors dwellers and those alike. Recently I have been bored and at the end of the game with pve content and figured it was time for me to venture into the moors and try my hand at PVMP as I heard it wasnt as bad as I thought it was. After a week of doing quests, raiding, exploring, and the like I have come here to voice my thoughts on the current state of pvmp from "My eyes and experiences". Im aware every server is different with its population and class count so im not judging everything as a whole but this is what i've come to realize.

CC: When I first went out I was aware of diminishing returns and just found out about the new aduacity stat after being off for a few months. I saw what it did and was not pleased to see my cc nerfed even more but I was optomistic about it and decided it cant get that bad right? So after getting ganked by countless wargs/reavers who seem to be the only classes out there that travel alone i've come to noticed the lack of any real escape plan for LMs now that the cc is gone, its so bad that my 30s root can just be pot/brand/aduacity to seem to only be 3 secs long. Even when the possibility of me acutally winning was to come the wargs have a get out of jail free card and the reavers will just run into my face with there cc immune speed boost.

Raids/groups: Traveling with a raid it seemed to perk up, I was getting quests done, getting easy comms, it was all working out. The groups themselves were not every well coordinated half the time with not everyone focus-fireing on one guy. It became worse as time went on and I would only see the creeps have 1 defiler healing and one creep could seem to withstand up to 9 guys hitting on him with the heals he was receiving. I am well aware that it was pry the raids themselves so im not just going to throw it all out the window and say "omg creeps oped" just yet.

Area defences: As I fought more and more creeps it became apperent that the npc do jack squat against even the most green of them. I would be outside of lugs/TR/TA and fight a few of them but end up running away while they would storm the castle all by themselves, just 2 or 3 of them, and actually survive the onslaut that was raining down apon them and laughing it off after killing me, thats it, just walk in and walk out like nothing happened. I am sure there is a huge balance problem cause isnt that the point of getting a group together is to be able to work your way thorugh the keeps to take down the tyrant at the end and not just act like its nothing? Im sure it might have something to do with the new aduacity with its damage reduction but this is just not acceptable when im trying to find a safe haven only to find out i've walked into an unforgiving grave.

Travel: Travel throughout the land was more of an annoyance then a so called "advantage on horses" cause of many flaws i've come to find out while doing PVMP. While riding with a group or even just by myself I kept hitting my quick key for SI and SoP:vigolance only to found out you cant perform these simple yet very much needed buffs but yet I can use an outdated/useless airlore. Why cant I do these 2 simple buffs? They are very needed in moors and I cant prepare for combat before I arrive at the battle by putting SI and myself and the healers only to have to do it once combat is engaged for the simple pleasure of pleasing the creeps. The creeps do no have mounts so I do not see the harm in letting the freeps prepare on thiers if the creeps are already waiting for us/looking for us with all thiers on already. Dismounting is another issue on horseback. I would have Si on and just 1 hit from a warg (mostly it seemed) would put my horse away therefore renduring me any chance of running away if I knew I couldnt win, why cant it take more then 1 hit?

These are the major topics i've wanted to talk about from my first experiences and I wont say I didnt have a few good moments myself but there are just so many things that put my LM down that I am having second thoughts about returning just to get ganked by wargs and other creeps who are immue to everything I try to cc them with while they run away scott free with no consequenses from fighting me. Why does my dots not pop wargs out of invis? Why does my class primary role in cc seem utterly useless when I heard storys of how it used to be great out there? If turbine wants the LMs to be dps out there why not have a LM buff to reduce inductions? Everything out there seems to shy away from topics that seem to break it/make it really hard for new players.

I know most mmos dont have perfect pvp and they will always be hard for new players but this shouldnt be difficult to fix since theres not multiple locations or even mechanics that change the field drastically. Its the same thing they have had for years and im not sure they even care to make it fairer in some areas. Now that WB has them they might get thier game strait but this was my first impressions of the moors and its flaws for new LMs and some players in general.

Originally Posted by Madden666

Howdy fellow moors dwellers and those alike. Recently I have been bored and at the end of the game with pve content and figured it was time for me to venture into the moors and try my hand at PVMP as I heard it wasnt as bad as I thought it was. After a week of doing quests, raiding, exploring, and the like I have come here to voice my thoughts on the current state of pvmp from "My eyes and experiences". Im aware every server is different with its population and class count so im not judging everything as a whole but this is what i've come to realize.

CC: When I first went out I was aware of diminishing returns and just found out about the new aduacity stat after being off for a few months. I saw what it did and was not pleased to see my cc nerfed even more but I was optomistic about it and decided it cant get that bad right? So after getting ganked by countless wargs/reavers who seem to be the only classes out there that travel alone i've come to noticed the lack of any real escape plan for LMs now that the cc is gone, its so bad that my 30s root can just be pot/brand/aduacity to seem to only be 3 secs long. Even when the possibility of me acutally winning was to come the wargs have a get out of jail free card and the reavers will just run into my face with there cc immune speed boost.

Raids/groups: Traveling with a raid it seemed to perk up, I was getting quests done, getting easy comms, it was all working out. The groups themselves were not every well coordinated half the time with not everyone focus-fireing on one guy. It became worse as time went on and I would only see the creeps have 1 defiler healing and one creep could seem to withstand up to 9 guys hitting on him with the heals he was receiving. I am well aware that it was pry the raids themselves so im not just going to throw it all out the window and say "omg creeps oped" just yet.

Area defences: As I fought more and more creeps it became apperent that the npc do jack squat against even the most green of them. I would be outside of lugs/TR/TA and fight a few of them but end up running away while they would storm the castle all by themselves, just 2 or 3 of them, and actually survive the onslaut that was raining down apon them and laughing it off after killing me, thats it, just walk in and walk out like nothing happened. I am sure there is a huge balance problem cause isnt that the point of getting a group together is to be able to work your way thorugh the keeps to take down the tyrant at the end and not just act like its nothing? Im sure it might have something to do with the new aduacity with its damage reduction but this is just not acceptable when im trying to find a safe haven only to find out i've walked into an unforgiving grave.

Travel: Travel throughout the land was more of an annoyance then a so called "advantage on horses" cause of many flaws i've come to find out while doing PVMP. While riding with a group or even just by myself I kept hitting my quick key for SI and SoP:vigolance only to found out you cant perform these simple yet very much needed buffs but yet I can use an outdated/useless airlore. Why cant I do these 2 simple buffs? They are very needed in moors and I cant prepare for combat before I arrive at the battle by putting SI and myself and the healers only to have to do it once combat is engaged for the simple pleasure of pleasing the creeps. The creeps do no have mounts so I do not see the harm in letting the freeps prepare on thiers if the creeps are already waiting for us/looking for us with all thiers on already. Dismounting is another issue on horseback. I would have Si on and just 1 hit from a warg (mostly it seemed) would put my horse away therefore renduring me any chance of running away if I knew I couldnt win, why cant it take more then 1 hit?

These are the major topics i've wanted to talk about from my first experiences and I wont say I didnt have a few good moments myself but there are just so many things that put my LM down that I am having second thoughts about returning just to get ganked by wargs and other creeps who are immue to everything I try to cc them with while they run away scott free with no consequenses from fighting me. Why does my dots not pop wargs out of invis? Why does my class primary role in cc seem utterly useless when I heard storys of how it used to be great out there? If turbine wants the LMs to be dps out there why not have a LM buff to reduce inductions? Everything out there seems to shy away from topics that seem to break it/make it really hard for new players.

I know most mmos dont have perfect pvp and they will always be hard for new players but this shouldnt be difficult to fix since theres not multiple locations or even mechanics that change the field drastically. Its the same thing they have had for years and im not sure they even care to make it fairer in some areas. Now that WB has them they might get thier game strait but this was my first impressions of the moors and its flaws for new LMs and some players in general.

I have to agree that for a new LM player, and most unskilled and/or undergeared LMs, the moors is absolute hell. The class role is just completely removed, and you are forced to be a gimped hunter with lower dps, SI, and some good debuffs. But, I suggest you try playing a creep class for a couple of weeks because it is much harder for anything that isn't a warg. As a LM the class takes a lot more skill than other classes. IMO it takes the most skill of any class to play it at full potential. New/bad LMs do terrible, while a good LM is still a fairly powerful class.

Originally Posted by Madden666

It became worse as time went on and I would only see the creeps have 1 defiler healing and one creep could seem to withstand up to 9 guys hitting on him with the heals he was receiving. I am well aware that it was pry the raids themselves so im not just going to throw it all out the window and say "omg creeps oped" just yet.

I admit, i loled hard at this one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIfzA...ature=youtu.be


See that that fully buffed and self healing defiler at 2:31 getting smoked in 20 seconds by those 6 freeps?

Thats me....

Originally Posted by Madden666

Howdy fellow moors dwellers and those alike. Recently I have been bored and at the end of the game with pve content and figured it was time for me to venture into the moors and try my hand at PVMP as I heard it wasnt as bad as I thought it was. After a week of doing quests, raiding, exploring, and the like I have come here to voice my thoughts on the current state of pvmp from "My eyes and experiences". Im aware every server is different with its population and class count so im not judging everything as a whole but this is what i've come to realize.

CC: When I first went out I was aware of diminishing returns and just found out about the new aduacity stat after being off for a few months. I saw what it did and was not pleased to see my cc nerfed even more but I was optomistic about it and decided it cant get that bad right? So after getting ganked by countless wargs/reavers who seem to be the only classes out there that travel alone i've come to noticed the lack of any real escape plan for LMs now that the cc is gone, its so bad that my 30s root can just be pot/brand/aduacity to seem to only be 3 secs long. Even when the possibility of me acutally winning was to come the wargs have a get out of jail free card and the reavers will just run into my face with there cc immune speed boost.

Raids/groups: Traveling with a raid it seemed to perk up, I was getting quests done, getting easy comms, it was all working out. The groups themselves were not every well coordinated half the time with not everyone focus-fireing on one guy. It became worse as time went on and I would only see the creeps have 1 defiler healing and one creep could seem to withstand up to 9 guys hitting on him with the heals he was receiving. I am well aware that it was pry the raids themselves so im not just going to throw it all out the window and say "omg creeps oped" just yet.

Area defences: As I fought more and more creeps it became apperent that the npc do jack squat against even the most green of them. I would be outside of lugs/TR/TA and fight a few of them but end up running away while they would storm the castle all by themselves, just 2 or 3 of them, and actually survive the onslaut that was raining down apon them and laughing it off after killing me, thats it, just walk in and walk out like nothing happened. I am sure there is a huge balance problem cause isnt that the point of getting a group together is to be able to work your way thorugh the keeps to take down the tyrant at the end and not just act like its nothing? Im sure it might have something to do with the new aduacity with its damage reduction but this is just not acceptable when im trying to find a safe haven only to find out i've walked into an unforgiving grave.

Travel: Travel throughout the land was more of an annoyance then a so called "advantage on horses" cause of many flaws i've come to find out while doing PVMP. While riding with a group or even just by myself I kept hitting my quick key for SI and SoP:vigolance only to found out you cant perform these simple yet very much needed buffs but yet I can use an outdated/useless airlore. Why cant I do these 2 simple buffs? They are very needed in moors and I cant prepare for combat before I arrive at the battle by putting SI and myself and the healers only to have to do it once combat is engaged for the simple pleasure of pleasing the creeps. The creeps do no have mounts so I do not see the harm in letting the freeps prepare on thiers if the creeps are already waiting for us/looking for us with all thiers on already. Dismounting is another issue on horseback. I would have Si on and just 1 hit from a warg (mostly it seemed) would put my horse away therefore renduring me any chance of running away if I knew I couldnt win, why cant it take more then 1 hit?

These are the major topics i've wanted to talk about from my first experiences and I wont say I didnt have a few good moments myself but there are just so many things that put my LM down that I am having second thoughts about returning just to get ganked by wargs and other creeps who are immue to everything I try to cc them with while they run away scott free with no consequenses from fighting me. Why does my dots not pop wargs out of invis? Why does my class primary role in cc seem utterly useless when I heard storys of how it used to be great out there? If turbine wants the LMs to be dps out there why not have a LM buff to reduce inductions? Everything out there seems to shy away from topics that seem to break it/make it really hard for new players.

I know most mmos dont have perfect pvp and they will always be hard for new players but this shouldnt be difficult to fix since theres not multiple locations or even mechanics that change the field drastically. Its the same thing they have had for years and im not sure they even care to make it fairer in some areas. Now that WB has them they might get thier game strait but this was my first impressions of the moors and its flaws for new LMs and some players in general.

I'm sorry, but you you can't expect to pwn on an advanced class from day 1 in the moors with no PvP experience. It takes time to get used to.

Here's a suggestion for you, make a creep first instead, try creeping a bit and then you might understand a bit more. You'll struggle like a crazy zebra in a pride of lions, you won't stand a chance and you'll discover that creeps DON'T have cc immunity, only the 5 sec immunity after you've already CC'ed them. Freeps on the other hand, use store brands much more and have LM SI.

Also, as a brand new lm with no experience, you would be the prime target of every creep on the server. They know you don't know how to play, so they will attack you for easy infamy.

As I said, just play a creep for a few weeks, see what it's like, then get back to your freep and you'll find that feeling, the feeling of getting into a shower after a long, wet and cold day out working, with a chill in your bones, you're freezing your #### off and then you finally get to take a hot shower. That's the feeling you will get after trying creep first and getting back to lm.

Originally Posted by Madden666

CC:

Don't rely on CC. It's not useless, but with audacity it doesn't pack as much punch as it used to. Instead, rely on debuffs and damage

Originally Posted by Madden666

Raids/groups:

Ya, that was all the fault of your group. Learn to focus fire and heal and freeps will learn they are infinitely more OP than any creep.

Originally Posted by Madden666

Area defences:

idk what happened here... unless the creeps were buffed out the wazoo with a healer, you didn't tar or CC, and you have no moral and were standing at the front door, that shouldn't have happened... NPCs do hurt. They hit me for 300 per shot on average and when you have even the main room of TR or Lug (~12 npcs), you do go down rather quickly.

Originally Posted by Madden666

Travel:

So you want to be able to buff on the move? Ok, get rid of your horse and run around on foot like creeps. As for getting knocked off your horse, any "interrupt" skills will knock you off immediately (and any good creeps will use these skills to get you down) and if you don't have any of the rep horses with crit immunity, a crit will knock you off instantly.

Originally Posted by Madden666

rest of stuff

Play a green creep... you will learn how easy you have it. Burgs are much more annoying than wargs imo since they have much more CC and can have the same/better damage as well as stealth and "get out of jail free cards" as you put it.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

I admit, i loled hard at this one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIfzA...ature=youtu.be


See that that fully buffed and self healing defiler at 2:31 getting smoked in 20 seconds by those 6 freeps?

Thats me....

Maybe its the terrible quality of the video or they have some option turned off, but i saw no hots on you.

But thats beside the point, a defiler healing themselves while being pounded on, and a defiler healing someone else while said person is being pounded on are two entirely different things.

Sorry madder,

But LM is probably the worst Freep class in the moors. Some may argue hunter, but they are a glass cannon. LM's are not. I havnt yet lost to a LM on my weaver. Unless your awesomely skilled you probobaly won't win most mid-high ranked creeps.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Sorry madder,

But LM is probably the worst Freep class in the moors. Some may argue hunter, but they are a glass cannon. LM's are not. I havnt yet lost to a LM on my weaver. Unless your awesomely skilled you probobaly won't win most mid-high ranked creeps.

OMG, not to flame the LMs you are fighting but they must be terrible. I couldn't possibly lose to a weaver. LMs have always been the anti-weaver since day one for many reasons (SI for one), more so than the anti-BA. I know I'm really getting my ego out here in this post as usual but I wish I could fight you and show you what a good LM does to any weaver. There's just no way a skilled LM loses to one.

Originally Posted by babaju2

OMG, not to flame the LMs you are fighting but they must be terrible. I couldn't possibly lose to a weaver. LMs have always been the anti-weaver since day one for many reasons (SI for one), more so than the anti-BA. I know I'm really getting my ego out here in this post as usual but I wish I could fight you and show you what a good LM does to any weaver. There's just no way a skilled LM loses to one.

Well I've fought my fair share of LM's, I got damaged to 1.5k once but that's about it. Oh, also, ALL of these LM's pop their heal, and still lose.

Ents is quite devastating considering I am so squishy and their lighting skill packs a punch. However all of my damaging skills are instant cast and on the move, whereas most of the LM skills are not. Apart from the 2 skills above their skills don't do much damage, and I have 12k morale. Their stun skills are annoying, but im literally moving again in less than 2 seconds.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

I admit, i loled hard at this one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIfzA...ature=youtu.be


See that that fully buffed and self healing defiler at 2:31 getting smoked in 20 seconds by those 6 freeps?

Thats me....

Nothing in that post leads me to believe you were speaking of CC.

Originally Posted by Daec

Maybe its the terrible quality of the video or they have some option turned off, but i saw no hots on you.

But thats beside the point, a defiler healing themselves while being pounded on, and a defiler healing someone else while said person is being pounded on are two entirely different things.

In optimal healing condition, i can heal for 800 HPS, at best. In combat condition, assuming im getting pounded by 1-2 opponants and can use only my 2 HoTs, its about 400 HPS. Most freeps class, or any conbination of 2 freep class, can DPS throught this easily.

So the idea of having a defiler outhealing 9 freeps, even if they are terrible players, focus fire is laughable at best.

Top LMs are a fearsome sighting in the Moors. They are the best AoE DPS class, next to the champion, and also the top CC class. Add their very potent debuffs (Windlore anyone?) in the mix and you have a beast, if played by capable hands, that absolutly dont need any fixing/buffs whatsoever.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

In optimal healing condition, i can heal for 800 HPS, at best. In combat condition, assuming im getting pounded by 1-2 opponants and can use only my 2 HoTs, its about 400 HPS. Most freeps class, or any conbination of 2 freep class, can DPS throught this easily.

So the idea of having a defiler outhealing 9 freeps, even if they are terrible players, focus fire is laughable at best.

Top LMs are a fearsome sighting in the Moors. They are the best AoE DPS class, next to the champion, and also the top CC class. Add their very potent debuffs (Windlore anyone?) in the mix and you have a beast, if played by capable hands, that absolutly dont need any fixing/buffs whatsoever.

You still never had any Hots on you. Taking 20 seconds for 6 freeps to burn you down WHILE you are zerging into a keep is not all that impressive. In fact, you should have died faster if anything.

Hardly any of the *many* Defilers in that video had any self HoTs or looked to be doing much healing - sort of hard to tell. A couple literally ran into the middle with zero HoTs I saw plenty of flies though.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

You still never had any Hots on you. Taking 20 seconds for 6 freeps to burn you down WHILE you are zerging into a keep is not all that impressive.

I dont have any DoTs on me because im focus CCed right at the bat, even before i can land in the keep. And thats why i choose this specific video to answer the OP who complain about *LM useless CC skills* and *have second thoughts* about playing his LM in the Moors, Until its *fixed*.

No fix needed here, at all.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

See that that fully buffed and self healing defiler

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

I dont have any DoTs on me

Which is it?


To the OP, Your CC doesn't work cause of 5 years of creep QQ finally killed it. Now that that is dead, they're working on your damage and critical attacks. I wonder what will come next after they get their way again and still are dying? Freep morale too high? Armor hurting the eyes? Hobbit's bare feet are turning you on too much and distracting?

A solo LM - especially one who's unfamiliar with the mechanics of their foe, without the benefit of +audacity, is an easy kill in the 'moors; and even at that, a LM is a tough class to play out there solo - there's a steep learning curve.

However, in a group/raid situation, LMs (especially if they're stacked) with their initial burst-damage/cc/de-buffs et al. are one of the most potent classes out there, hands down.

I think you just need to rank your freep a bit and come back to us. I agree that you low rank makes you a target. With Regards to LM's when I am on my Warg I usually hide from them because they can see me too easily.

Also get a creep and learn the other side a bit as other said.. might releive some of your freep fustration.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Which is it?

The second one. Since im on this video later in the corner sequence, i confused the 2. My bad.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

To the OP, Your CC doesn't work cause of 5 years of creep QQ finally killed it. Now that that is dead, they're working on your damage and critical attacks.

Yay, we finally can get trashed by freepboi in a few seconds without being greybarred all the way. We may actually even have time to click 1 or 2 skills before going down.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

I wonder what will come next after they get their way again and still are dying? Freep morale too high? Armor hurting the eyes? Hobbit's bare feet are turning you on too much and distracting?

So, according to you, everything is fine in the Moors? The game is perfectly balanced? No DPS or healing imbalance?

You agree with this guy in my sig?

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

I dont have any DoTs on me because im focus CCed right at the bat, even before i can land in the keep. And thats why i choose this specific video to answer the OP who complain about *LM useless CC skills* and *have second thoughts* about playing his LM in the Moors, Until its *fixed*.

No fix needed here, at all.

I assume in your post you were making a point about freep dps, you stated you were the self healing defiler being killed in 20s. You were not self healing as far as i could tell, so providing a false situtation only helps to discredit your point.

Originally Posted by Daec

I assume you were making a point about freep dps, you stated you were the self healing defiler being killed in 20s. You were not self healing as far as i could tell, so providing a false situtation only helps to discredit your point.

Reread my post, im making a point about LM CC. OP is complaining that LM CC is useless. Its not and the proof of this is in the video sequence. You can clearly see im chained CCed for almost the whole 20 sec duration. Dont take my word for it, check my debuff row by yourself.

Defilers healing here is irrelevent. We are talking about LMs CC abilities, which is directly relevent to this Thread topic.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Reread my post, im making a point about LM CC. OP is complaining that LM CC is useless. Its not and the proof of this is in the video sequence. You can clearly see im chained CCed for almost the whole 20 sec duration. Dont take my word for it, check my debuff row by yourself.

Defilers healing here is irrelevent. We are talking about LMs CC abilities, which is directly relevent to this Thread topic.

But the OP has every right to complain about LM CC. 7 Audacity has a -50% CC duration, on top of DR (excluding knockdowns) CC in the moors is rather useless nowadays. I used to use stun horns in 1v1 fights, but anymore now it does barely anything, and I can use my fervour pips toward higher DPS skills rather than attempting CC. Having a class that almost exclusively relied on CC and the changes that occured in U6 puts that class at a huge disadvantage. Are the good LMs still a successful class, we of course they are. But that doesnt change the fact they were gimped.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

Having a class that almost exclusively relied on CC and the changes that occured in U6 puts that class at a huge disadvantage.

This is the problem right here. LMs don't "almost exclusively rely on CC"... That is the way they have been played for 5 years because it was possible to keep a creep CCed for almost the entire fight. Go find a good LM and ask them how they trait/fight. You will *hopefully* learn a lot about the class...

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Well I've fought my fair share of LM's, I got damaged to 1.5k once but that's about it. Oh, also, ALL of these LM's pop their heal, and still lose.

Ents is quite devastating considering I am so squishy and their lighting skill packs a punch. However all of my damaging skills are instant cast and on the move, whereas most of the LM skills are not. Apart from the 2 skills above their skills don't do much damage, and I have 12k morale. Their stun skills are annoying, but im literally moving again in less than 2 seconds.

I can root your pet, stack two attack duration debuffs (which puts you down to +30%), and -100% ranged damage (Wind-Lore and Distraction) on you. Your dps is so horrible at that point that you just can't win and the only thing that will do any damage is drink deep. I don't need a single CD to win. Not ents, lightning, or wisdom. 95% of LMs don't play the class correctly. Once you come across one who knows what he/she is doing, you've got no chance.

99% of LMs don't even know about how good warding lore is. Warding Lore (the orange circle) works on weavers! If a weaver is standing in the orange circle, it will take +10% incoming tactical damage and have +2% miss chance. And you can easily get the weaver to stay in that circle. The LM can just stand in the circle, and unless the weaver is running circles around the LM (which means he would have to be in the Warding Lore), then the weaver is at an even bigger disadvantage if he is just standing in place hitting the LM, because the LM would be getting off much more inductions. Weavers are hands down the easiest class for a LM to beat in a 1v1.

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

This is the problem right here. LMs don't "almost exclusively rely on CC"... That is the way they have been played for 5 years because it was possible to keep a creep CCed for almost the entire fight. Go find a good LM and ask them how they trait/fight. You will *hopefully* learn a lot about the class...

If you would have correctly read my post I said "relied" as in they don't anymore. Experienced LMs still can do what needs to be done, it's just more tough now. And regardless of any argument you attempt to make, LMs were gimped from their CC with audacity and DR combined.

And I have an LM, I know plenty about the class.

Originally Posted by babaju2

Weavers are hands down the easiest class for a LM to beat in a 1v1.

My understanding is that, through the use of the -10m skill range debuff, weavers are capable of effectively range kiting LMs with well timed WtE and their inherent MS bonus from racials(?).

Originally Posted by MaroonDragoon

My understanding is that, through the use of the -10m skill range debuff, weavers are capable of effectively range kiting LMs with well timed WtE and their inherent MS bonus from racials(?).

That's a silly idea, and I'll explain why. Perhaps a bad LM could be kited by a weaver. I have the +Burning Embers range legacy. It goes up to +10m range, totaling the range of the skill to being 40m. Weavers have a 30m range on their damaging skills. If they were to attempt kite me I could literally just spam embers with no difficulty of getting it off because they aren't circling me and are right in range. Meanwhile, they're doing horribly low dps because I am able to apply all of my debuffs (which are 40m range, 30m with Venomous Haze) to them. A weaver attempting to kite me would lose by even more morale than if they were fighting in melee range. It works on RKs, but not LMs.

Even without the Burning Embers range legacy, the LM will still eventually get off an Embers if they aren't terrible. WtE does not last long at all (10 seconds of being on the floor), and neither does Venomous Haze (30s duration, 2 minute cd). Entangling Web is the only debuff weavers have that really affects LMs much, but that can be cured in a second.