Thread: Adventures with Garny part 2

I just want to add my two coppers to this.

The last few SWS packs I've led or been in have been combining Flayer and Shadow stances with appreciable results against small groups (4-6). We win some, we lose some. C'est la vie and on to the next fight. Against a larger number of freeps, same tactics can work and they get used, but time is decidedly not on our side.

But our pack leaders generally know the stances and skills and we're able to effectively communicate in combat.

It's not as easy in a mixed raid though. Pack tactics aren't always compatible, Even if the raid has a preponderance of wargs. even the best leader out there has alot to communicate, and a warg RAT calling out a root can still get missed. I've lost count of the times one of us has rooted a target only to hav no one follow through. Also, a wargs role in a mixed raid is different that in a pack.

And Dolmir - one last thing about a couple of those fights. Lag comes into play too often (doesn't offset lack of skill). Too many times in those larger clashes lately I've tried to get off an attack only to find my target has moved 20m away. I've come to understand that's hitting both sides, though.

-pup-

Originally Posted by Thane9

As for the continued insistance from Bio about the healing issues, here's my take.

Having personally fought most of the high rank defilers on our server there is ONE key observation I'd like to make. Some are traited in a way that I CANNOT out dps their healing; literally cannot hurt them faster than they can heal themselves.

FYI, im one of the rare Landroval defilers that trait 100% healing, even when soloing (which avoid me the trouble to retrait each time im asked to group). And when im grouping, im 100% focusing in healing, unlike the majority of other defilers that like to blight/flies and DPS in group. Not judging, just saying. So when it comes to defilers healing, i know what im talking about bro.

My current corruption setup includes 5 mastery (+13.6% healing output) and HfP2 to get an extra 10% morale, for better survivability against current monstrous freep DPS level. I slot all class traits related to healing. In combat conditions, when facing a solo champion that is constantly interupting you, its simply impossible to throw off any induction skills, is it healing or debuffing. Which leave you with only 2 insta cast single target HoTs, that give you ==>

1 skill heal for 500 initial healing and 500 per 5 seconds tics for 30 seconds ==> 100 HPS
1 skill heal for 450 initial healing and 450 per 3 seconds tics for 15 seconds ==> 150 HPS

...for a grand total of 250 HPS, which ill round up to 300 HPS to take in account random crit. Now, any champion, even the most mediocre ones, can DPS throught this without even sweating. If a champion player cannot do it, then i would suggest to either:

A- Delete and reroll another class.
B- Sub to Hello Kitty Online immediatly.
C- Keep farming greenies in quest hubs, to stay within his personnal gaming level.

Originally Posted by Thane9

That's with a maxed out 1st age and solid gear, and a reasonably well thought out attack sequence. Some can't even come close to keeping up with my dps. I'm not exactly sure what the difference in spec is, but let me tell you it's MASSIVELY noticable. In fact there are relatively low rank defilers that are FAR more difficult to kill on our server than some of the highest ranked. This isn't to say any players are bad or good, but there are clearly spec choices that are dramatically impacting healing output...something to consider.

The maximum difference would be a total of +16% healing output (full 6 mastery) against a defiler that would choose to not slot any. Theres also a class trait that gives defilers an additionnal +10% healing output. Its a combined +26% maximum difference.

Thats it, thats all.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

FYI, im one of the rare Landroval defilers that trait 100% healing, even when soloing (which avoid me the trouble to retrait each time im asked to group). And when im grouping, im 100% focusing in healing, unlike the majority of other defilers that like to blight/flies and DPS in group. Not judging, just saying. So when it comes to defilers healing, i know what im talking about bro.

My current corruption setup includes 5 mastery (+13.6% healing output) and HfP2 to get an extra 10% morale, for better survivability against current monstrous freep DPS level. I slot all class traits related to healing. In combat conditions, when facing a solo champion that is constantly interupting you, its simply impossible to throw off any induction skills, is it healing or debuffing. Which leave you with only 2 insta cast single target HoTs, that give you ==>

1 skill heal for 500 initial healing and 500 per 5 seconds tics for 30 seconds ==> 100 HPS
1 skill heal for 450 initial healing and 450 per 3 seconds tics for 15 seconds ==> 150 HPS

...for a grand total of 250 HPS, which ill round up to 300 HPS to take in account random crit. Now, any champion, even the most mediocre ones, can DPS throught this without even sweating. If a champion player cannot do it, then i would suggest to either:

A- Delete and reroll another class.
B- Sub to Hello Kitty Online immediatly.
C- Keep farming greenies in quest hubs, to stay within his personnal gaming level.





The maximum difference would be a total of +16% healing output (full 6 mastery) against a defiler that would choose to not slot any. Theres also a class trait that gives defilers an additionnal +10% healing output. Its a combined +26% maximum difference.

Thats it, thats all.

I think you're missing something. Look, I'm no expert. I just know who I cannot out dps and who I can. Perhaps being 100% healing isn't the best way to get max healing???

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

I AM THE DUNKMASTER BLAAARRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SOISOISOISOISOISOI

OH NO!

Jaiyne and myself tried to hide the secret, but now it's out.

Originally Posted by Thane9

I think you're missing something. Look, I'm no expert. I just know who I cannot out dps and who I can. Perhaps being 100% healing isn't the best way to get max healing???

If it's personal survivability you are looking for, then the mitigation traits+R7 Audacity is what does it.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

If it's personal survivability you are looking for, then the mitigation traits+R7 Audacity is what does it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certain a lot of defensive issues come into play as well (which IMHO are an advantage that creepside has over freepside healing) but this seems to be a healing issue.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

If it's personal survivability you are looking for, then the mitigation traits+R7 Audacity is what does it.

Correct. A defiler that like to solo and look especialy for 1vs1, like Uglymf for exemple, will probably go for a totally different built that will allow him to better survive/DPS a solo target. But the same built would lower his efficency as a healer in group situation.

Personnaly, when caught in the open and engaged, ill try to defend myself the best i can or simply try to escape if i dont have any hope to win.

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

Hi all, I would just like to clear up some common misconceptions here...

Many people seem to believe that our success is based off of freep imbalance. Other claim it is because of our skill, or the lack of skill demonstrated by our opposition. Others go so far to even claim it is because of exploiting and cheating.

I am here to tell you all the truth. It is neither of these things mentioned above, but rather something else much more inexplicable: the red double swords.

As shown in the screenie of my secret build below, these red double swords shown. Together, with other important elements, they grant dunkmaster status. This status allows you to dunk what they call "n00blords", which are basically just players (good or bad) that get "dunked". These 4 red swords are actually created from yellow double swords. However, over time, the blood of the n00blords that you dunk turns them red, which explains why it has taken so long to finally achieve dunkmaster status.

However, we notice some other things in the screenshot: Equipped in the foot slot are the boots of moving very fast, and equipped in the class slot is wiggles lantern, shown between the doubleswords. The boots of moving very fast are self-explanatory: they allow you to move very fast, which is good for catching up to n00blords to make a successful dunk. The wiggles lantern, combined with the 4 red double swords, allows you to see more and dunk harder. All of these together help contribute to "dunkmaster" status



Since I am aware that very few people are unfamiliar with dunkmaster status, I will be happy to answer some frequently asked questions:

Q: Is it possible to dunk a dunkmaster?

A: It is possible to dunk a dunkmaster, however you must have more double swords than the dunkmaster and they must be red


Q: Where can red double swords be obtained?

A: The evil forest


Q: Are you a dunkmaster? How do I become a dunkmaster?

A:Yes, as shown in my title I am a dunkmaster. Dunkmaster status can be achieved simply by obtaining the following from the evil forest: 4 yellow double swords, the boots of moving very fast, and wiggles lantern.


Q: What if I get dunked? Does that mean that I am a n00blord?

A: Only if you are dunked by a dunkmaster, in which case you would be considered a n00blord.

I hope this clears up some common misconception

I've got to give you +rep for this post... gave me a chuckle on this cloudy, rainy day

Originally Posted by Thane9

Don't get me wrong, I'm certain a lot of defensive issues come into play as well (which IMHO are an advantage that creepside has over freepside healing) but this seems to be a healing issue.

You are aware that healing scales much better with defensive stats than actual healing stats right? Pretty much the reason this has occurred is the -30% incoming damage that everyone now has.

Although I've heard that treenub can kill any defiler with his -25% inc healing menace set, provided he doesn't run out of power.

What this thread needs is trolling, so here it goes: I wonder how many folks went creepside knowing they were the weaker side/underdog? Knowing this, makes argueing balance a lulz issue. It's like moving next door to a gun range/landfill, then complaining about the noise/smell. Lulz factor is even greater when the freep moves creepside and becomes a diehard, goggle wearing, cool-aid drinking, in the tank creep. (*cough* Biohazzard ). That aside, I'm generally unopinionated about the situation in the Moors. I just always found this issue amusing.

Originally Posted by Reichpapers

What this thread needs is trolling, so here it goes: I wonder how many folks went creepside knowing they were the weaker side/underdog? Knowing this, makes argueing balance a lulz issue. It's like moving next door to a gun range/landfill, then complaining about the noise/smell. Lulz factor is even greater when the freep moves creepside and becomes a diehard, goggle wearing, cool-aid drinking, in the tank creep. (*cough* Biohazzard ). That aside, I'm generally unopinionated about the situation in the Moors. I just always found this issue amusing.

Starhugger GRRRRRRRRRRR

Sorry had to ;-D

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Starhugger GRRRRRRRRRRR

Sorry had to ;-D

hehe, I love star hugging. I mean really, I wouldn't know how to play any other way if I tried, and I've tried Just so you know. If you see Alaster in the gift box cosmetic, it means my rating is back to 2k. Whoever hunts me down and kills me gets the gift.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

You are aware that healing scales much better with defensive stats than actual healing stats right? Pretty much the reason this has occurred is the -30% incoming damage that everyone now has.

Although I've heard that treenub can kill any defiler with his -25% inc healing menace set, provided he doesn't run out of power.

Of course I understand that. In fact I believe it's a key issue that a lot of creeps convienantly forget about when they compare healing vs freep healing. Creep healers are tougher.

But my point is taking that into consideration. I can rip apart some very high level defilers, whereas others are seemingly able to heal through just about anything I can throw at them...even while running away with their backs to me.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Creep healers are tougher.

This is debatable, their mitigations are basically the same (in fact freeps are slightly higher). The difference is that Creeps have basically double the amount of morale while freeps have around 40% more healing output. All the morale does is allow other heals to realize that this player needs some help, while the greater healing output of the freep healers means they can take alot more damage over time.

What actually ends up happening is that with audacity freep healers become extremely hard to kill at all times, where as creep healers are hard to kill only in small engagements.

Originally Posted by Thane9

But my point is taking that into consideration. I can rip apart some very high level defilers, whereas others are seemingly able to heal through just about anything I can throw at them...even while running away with their backs to me.

This may have something to do with skill.

Without a doubt that group of players (freeps) plays well together. Nothing should be taken away from them on that. Nearly an ideal group makeup for medium to long time duration wins. If that freep group gets caught by surprise or sleeping, there could quickly be some issues for them. That RK or Capt dies immediately because of key cc or incap of the RK or Capt and the entire tone of fight could change. Best initial kill is probably the captain, without him the RK WILL get taken down.

I have an LM and it's impressive how Garny stays busy always chaining skills and swapping targets. Very smooth transition from damage to debuff and situational awareness.

Some Major factors creepside in that LC fight are :

1. Imbalance in healing. Defilers have a rough time responding to burst damage and useful group heal.
2. Imbalance in healing. WLs, unless stacked 3 deep have a rough time responding to burst damage (other than bubble). Stacked you lose some DPS. But that could be a possible solution to that type of matchup. 3WLs per group...dunno
3. Wargs being misused overall. Focused Flayer is the key.
4. Windlore (i've never had this applied to me from Garny without something stacked in front of it. Alongside PVP armor and audacity, makes a BA nearly useless. Make catch prey and/or other spider debuffs AE...ok..now we're talking.
5. There's more than just Garny's group in that fight
6. NPCs not being dealt with to help the group. Could be popping warg heals, reducing the NPC damage and induction interruptions, gathered up and run out for a kite...etc..
7. Focus fire deteriorated after the initial push. Proper damage on a target swapping rotation is needed, along side that getting all the damage necessary to land at nearly the same time. So, target swapping and timing.
8. IMO the main issue was the clear lack of a multi-phase tactical plan to deal with the opposition beyond the inital rush and FF attempts

Pure or I may try to run a raid or 12 man again sometime, but it's so difficult to get people on voice and also coordinated once they are on voice. We generally do better in a 4man-6man than how we do when we expand beyond that. Unfortunately a 6man creep group can generally only deal with xx # of freeps. You just can't offset the incoming damage long enough to overcome freep healing beyond the first few kills. I would not really want to matchup a 6man vs that 6man with any expecation other than to eventually lose. I'd take 12 of the right people against it any day open field though.

I truly belive that what creeps are missing at this point can be mostly addressed in the lack R11+ skills/traits that "should" be added. ie - WL defeat response skills. Additional burst damage capabilities. Additional debuffs and debuff removal abilities. Traits to address induction issues for healers beyond what they have now and/or increase healing output.

Go play on E freepside and see what well coordinated creeps (grouped and ungrouped) can accomplish.

Moof, be honest. What's really missing from those creep groups?

THE ONE AND ONLY TANKER OF FREEP RAIDS.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Go play on E freepside and see what well coordinated creeps (grouped and ungrouped) can accomplish.

I've played creepside and simply gold tagging with them opened my eyes considerably. It's why I say that 23v6 was 100% the creep's fault.

I have a feeling that if you guys brought a 6man out, it would be more effective than the raid, 12 would (and should) be a guaranteed wipe for us.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

This is debatable, their mitigations are basically the same (in fact freeps are slightly higher). The difference is that Creeps have basically double the amount of morale while freeps have around 40% more healing output. All the morale does is allow other heals to realize that this player needs some help, while the greater healing output of the freep healers means they can take alot more damage over time.

What actually ends up happening is that with audacity freep healers become extremely hard to kill at all times, where as creep healers are hard to kill only in small engagements.
.

Seems pretty straight forward to me. But yeah, I'm not considering zerg playability because nothing matters in those fights but numbers and focused fire. NOTHING. Those two things are the only predictor of victory.

But in any reasonable sized engagement that toughness and greater morale pools matters a lot. So much so I personally am becoming more and more of a believer of tearing down the DPS opponents first, then only killing the healers last. Healers have in some ways become the true tanks in the moors. Particularly creepside, where WLs in a large way are built that way already.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

This may have something to do with skill.

How is skill involved when a defiler is running away in a straight line and able to completely heal through my dps? Whereas other defilers who try to fight are unable to even slow me down while I'm cutting through them?

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

This is debatable, their mitigations are basically the same (in fact freeps are slightly higher). The difference is that Creeps have basically double the amount of morale while freeps have around 40% more healing output.

While i agree with some of your points, i want to correct this one. The gap is even widder. A good minstrel will have around 9k morale (average of Landroval top 3 minstrels: Dagr, Jaiyne and Minipied) while a high rank defiler will have around 14k. Thats 55% and not double.

As for healing output, a decently geared minstrel will score 1600 HPS and some top RKs will hit 1800 HPS. Defilers would only throw out 800 HPS. Thats 100% minimum in favor of the freeps.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

As for healing output, a decently geared minstrel will score 1600 HPS and some top RKs will hit 1800 HPS. Defilers would only throw out 800 HPS. Thats 100% minimum in favor of the freeps.

This is just not accurate. I have been parsing both in PvE AND in PvE lately. It's not anywhere close to 1600 HPS in the Moors. Not even remotely close. No one is planting feet and casting away freely in the Moors - and even if they were? They still wouldn't parse 1600 HPS in combat. Not only would they never be traited to produce that PvE level of healing (which isn't even required in PvP); but that would only be possible under very specific conditions that do not exist in PvP and would require very specific gear, heal rotation, as well as long CDs. None of this is happening. It's just not accurate.

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

Hi all, I would just like to clear up some common misconceptions here...

Many people seem to believe that our success is based off of freep imbalance. Other claim it is because of our skill, or the lack of skill demonstrated by our opposition. Others go so far to even claim it is because of exploiting and cheating.

I am here to tell you all the truth. It is neither of these things mentioned above, but rather something else much more inexplicable: the red double swords.

As shown in the screenie of my secret build below, these red double swords shown. Together, with other important elements, they grant dunkmaster status. This status allows you to dunk what they call "n00blords", which are basically just players (good or bad) that get "dunked". These 4 red swords are actually created from yellow double swords. However, over time, the blood of the n00blords that you dunk turns them red, which explains why it has taken so long to finally achieve dunkmaster status.

However, we notice some other things in the screenshot: Equipped in the foot slot are the boots of moving very fast, and equipped in the class slot is wiggles lantern, shown between the doubleswords. The boots of moving very fast are self-explanatory: they allow you to move very fast, which is good for catching up to n00blords to make a successful dunk. The wiggles lantern, combined with the 4 red double swords, allows you to see more and dunk harder. All of these together help contribute to "dunkmaster" status



Since I am aware that very few people are unfamiliar with dunkmaster status, I will be happy to answer some frequently asked questions:

Q: Is it possible to dunk a dunkmaster?

A: It is possible to dunk a dunkmaster, however you must have more double swords than the dunkmaster and they must be red


Q: Where can red double swords be obtained?

A: The evil forest


Q: Are you a dunkmaster? How do I become a dunkmaster?

A:Yes, as shown in my title I am a dunkmaster. Dunkmaster status can be achieved simply by obtaining the following from the evil forest: 4 yellow double swords, the boots of moving very fast, and wiggles lantern.


Q: What if I get dunked? Does that mean that I am a n00blord?

A: Only if you are dunked by a dunkmaster, in which case you would be considered a n00blord.

I hope this clears up some common misconception

Okay, this post made checking the forums before bed totally worth it. You have literally saved the 15 minutes or so I've browsed the forums in a disappointed manner, only to find this gem.

+epic rep.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

This is just not accurate.

Alright, prove it.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I have been parsing both in PvE AND in PvE lately. It's not anywhere close to 1600 HPS in the Moors. Not even remotely close.

Show your numbers.

Originally Posted by Thane9

But in any reasonable sized engagement that toughness and greater morale pools matters a lot. So much so I personally am becoming more and more of a believer of tearing down the DPS opponents first, then only killing the healers last. Healers have in some ways become the true tanks in the moors. Particularly creepside, where WLs in a large way are built that way already.

After all these years you are just now figuring this out?

Granted, I'm going with you on the "reasonable sized" engagement. There isn't alot of target selection to choose from when fighting 2 - 3 people. But in "reasonable sized" engagements...squishy/dps goes first. Always. It was rare I would call a target on healer, but there were a few that I DID because they needed to be taken out, such as Dagr.

RK's and LM's were almost always the priority targets followed by hunters. But as a general rule it was expected that a few players would take the initiative and finish off "anyone that looks like they are about to go".

You don't have to kill a minstrel to take them out of the fight, you just need one capable player assigned to serve that purpose. A healer can't heal if someone is on top of them preventing the healing. Save the focus fire for the people that can actually kill you, like Radarstiel. You leave someone like that alone, you are going to lose a lot of people. Or in this case, you leave Garny alone, you are going to get embarrassed.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Alright, prove it.





Show your numbers.

For example, I just did Lightening T2 CM in Orthanc. I parsed: just shy of 1500 HPS and that is obviously being traited full heals, using Fellowship's Heart, and wearing 5 Orthanc Thelin set, plus a first age healing book that is maxed. I am never being CC'd, interrupted, and I never have any agro.




And my gear/first age that makes the healing possible (ie - you would NOT wear this stuff in the Moors).



My healing trait set-up I will post when we're done with Acid if you want to see it...also not something any minstrel would ever be traited in the Moors. In this set-up, I am maxed healing - which is 50% outgoing healing. Also not something that anyone is going to be built for in the Moors.

I should note, I do not trait all WoR traitline because I balance 5 anthems instead of pure HPS. A pure WoR healer would parse higher. I trait 4 PoS, 3 WoR.

Originally Posted by Olympic

After all these years you are just now figuring this out?

Granted, I'm going with you on the "reasonable sized" engagement. There isn't alot of target selection to choose from when fighting 2 - 3 people. But in "reasonable sized" engagements...squishy/dps goes first. Always. It was rare I would call a target on healer, but there were a few that I DID because they needed to be taken out, such as Dagr.

RK's and LM's were almost always the priority targets followed by hunters. But as a general rule it was expected that a few players would take the initiative and finish off "anyone that looks like they are about to go".

You don't have to kill a minstrel to take them out of the fight, you just need one capable player assigned to serve that purpose. A healer can't heal if someone is on top of them preventing the healing. Save the focus fire for the people that can actually kill you, like Radarstiel. You leave someone like that alone, you are going to lose a lot of people. Or in this case, you leave Garny alone, you are going to get embarrassed.

Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of the idea that a dead creep can't hurt me. It's why I prefer ST damage over AoE, it's why I know I'm gimping myself a bit dual wielding instead of utalizing the massive burst from a 2hander.

But the prevailing wisdom has generally been to focus on healers first (note, in most cases healers are the squishies you talk about). And I've generally gone along with that in group situations.

But when we examine creepside dynamics the healers are NOT the squishies and that's where things get weird.

Also, just to clarify, when I mentioned "reasonable sized" I was specifically referring to sub-raid level engagements. When you have 20+ people in your group ANY target should be valid. In fact, I would suggest that rapid focus and target aquisition is far more important than specific target selection.

Frankly, it's one of the reasons I believe Lee is such a good raid leader, because he's melee and the things he is targeting are the things that tha majority of the raid can apply damage to immediately. AND he's aggressive in his personal movement, i.e. at the front...so his next target is also likely to be aquirable by the majority of the group. It makes for fast killing.

Raids who stop, stand, allow their opponent to set their feet, then lock on a target based on their name, their class, their skill, or whatever are going to be a> faced with an onslaught of incoming damage, b> risk getting spread out in an attempt to get to that "smart" target, and c> more likely to have to overcome focused healing on their chosen target.

Anyhow...my take home is healing is powerful right now. Freeps may have more of it (when they have an equivalent number of healers...last night for example there were a lot more WLs/Defilers than all the freep healing combined at times) but Creep healers are awfully tough and with that adds a layer of complexity when measuring their effectiveness as healers.

/shrug.

But what do I know...I just like to slice and dice creeps. Healing is something that doesn't often factor into my decision making...

but it's fun to talk about.

BTW, do we get to factor Flies into the Defiler discussion...or Uruk heal into the WL discussion?

OH OH...how about rezzing...can we talk about the discrepencies there?!?!?

---

IMHO one of the very best features of LotRO's PvMP versus any other PvP game is that the classes are NOT mirrors. LOVE IT.

Is there still work to be done? Yes.
Are things mathematically better now than before? Yes.

(Note: I say mathematically purposefully, because I think there are game mechanics that are UTTERLY borked...but that's a seperate issue)

Anyhow, hope to see you all out there soon...I'm pushing to get R13 before my 5 year anniversary of R1. I'm gonna need creeps to kill...so bring it.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

.




.

Who cares about your healing parse? I'm on your friends list!!

WOOWOO!!!

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

This is just not accurate. I have been parsing both in PvE AND in PvE lately. It's not anywhere close to 1600 HPS in the Moors. Not even remotely close. No one is planting feet and casting away freely in the Moors - and even if they were? They still wouldn't parse 1600 HPS in combat. Not only would they never be traited to produce that PvE level of healing (which isn't even required in PvP); but that would only be possible under very specific conditions that do not exist in PvP and would require very specific gear, heal rotation, as well as long CDs. None of this is happening. It's just not accurate.

Whether the parses are a bit off or not, I think your point is actually a great one Jaiyne. Defiler for example has 2 on the move heals, the others are fairly long inductions. So based on this point a defiler under freep attention is at about 300HPS? (bio that right?, fully traited?).

Freep heals scale better and they have more traits and/or skills that reduce knockback or make things instant...right? Still by far out heal a defiler in utility and magnitude even while most of them are traited to roflyellstomp at people all day in WS (waaaaaahhhhh, haaaaaah! SHUT UP!)

Putting numbers to it is somewhat pointless, you just need to watch to see the huge difference and the clear issue that needs to be addressed in some manner. Can you or an RK keep a target alive with your feet planted with 4 BA's shooting it? Pretty sure you can most of the time if it's not a low moral freep (you need to have something to work with). Can a creep healer do the same thing with 4 hunters pewpewing? (remember we're not talking about MT or Bubbles), maybe for a short time, the healing inbalance is there because of the disparity of damage. Freeps heal more and damage more...that's not balance...that's - "oh no the baby's car seat fell off the bed onto the hardwood floor..upside down....and the baby was in it...then the headboard tipped over and fell on top of that"

Originally Posted by Olympic

After all these years you are just now figuring this out?

Granted, I'm going with you on the "reasonable sized" engagement. There isn't alot of target selection to choose from when fighting 2 - 3 people. But in "reasonable sized" engagements...squishy/dps goes first. Always. It was rare I would call a target on healer, but there were a few that I DID because they needed to be taken out, such as Dagr.

RK's and LM's were almost always the priority targets followed by hunters. But as a general rule it was expected that a few players would take the initiative and finish off "anyone that looks like they are about to go".

You don't have to kill a minstrel to take them out of the fight, you just need one capable player assigned to serve that purpose. A healer can't heal if someone is on top of them preventing the healing. Save the focus fire for the people that can actually kill you, like Radarstiel. You leave someone like that alone, you are going to lose a lot of people. Or in this case, you leave Garny alone, you are going to get embarrassed.

Tarbosh, I don't know when you departed game so I'm not entirely sure exactly how you're relating to the current issue with Aud7 freeps with pvp gear sets coupled with current freep healing mechanics, so excuse any repeated info you know.

Anyhow, you're right even in the current situation. BUT, your burst has to be on point or you can't get past that damage/incoming healing window. Once a freep healer starts healing a freep, you need to swap targets or come up with a different plan. You're just not likely to burn through the healing output.

On the point of putting one person on a minstrel....yeah kinda...one person isn't going to make a dent unless that is the only healer in the FRaid..slap a Flayer warg on the mins...good idea...throw 2 in there..better idea. Just hope they don't get blown up immediately. The overall situation is just loaded with challenges...more captains out than i've ever seen, short CD bubbles all over, increased damage output by freeps, group healing by minstrels, rk healing...lots of stuff to contend with.

Hi btw

Originally Posted by Thane9

but it's fun to talk about.

BTW, do we get to factor Flies into the Defiler discussion...or Uruk heal into the WL discussion?

OH OH...how about rezzing...can we talk about the discrepencies there?!?!?

.

Heck yeah.

Flies are pretty ridiculous once they actually get on a target you want them on...that's a given.

Uruk heal, sometimes i get the impression you still think it works the way it did before...regardless.
3k heal on 3min CD, group only...pretty good without a doube. Like having a 3min Manheal CD with no root.

Keep in mind as well that BAs have it too...so there's more than just WLs running with it.

It's a great offset from a crit'd remorseless or a swift bow or scribes spark. But it's not a big deal. Most big hits from freeps pretty much offset anything that heal is doing for ya. But it IS handy.

In a raid setting you may have 1-3 uruks in a group....that's certainly of some use, but the skill has NEVER EVER EVER EVER been what you have always made it out to be over the years. Used properly it's an advantage, certainly. Is it actually ever leveraged as the group heal it is?, rarely because groups do not always take damage evenly..... Your repeating point on this skill is that it heals everyone for 3k (3x6 = 18k) 18k HEAL OMG. The reality is that skill is normally popped to heal a single target. 3k single target heal...very good no doubt but a drop in the bucket with the damage freeps are putting out atm..


Rez imbalance...yeah for sure creeps are on the bottom of this one as far as I can see.

WL

1. Medium to Long CD (5 or 6mins i think)
2. Only AE no single target or ranged rez (bad). You must be on top of the dead creep. Can't rez multiple people unless they died in a heap. It's pathetic when you hear a raid leader to ask everyone to die in a pile
3. AE can hit multiples (good & bad) if it's more than one dead creep, usually not a great idea to BR unless uruks and quitters are up on instant cast. Creeps just don't have enough burst healing to get multiples topped off or protected long enough to top them off. Without a doubt a great use of Uruk heal.. IF they all happen to be in the same group. However, popping up a bunch of creeps at once with a single skill is still pretty sweet in many situations. (Garny -"did they just rez....bang sticky gourd, ents....ok they're all dead again"
4. Must trait or rezzed come back and dangerous health levels

Defilers (correct me where i'm wrong, cuz i don't have one).

1. Out of combat rez.
2. No AE capability
3. Moderate to minimal CD, but you definately can't chain rez.
4. Long induction

RK

1. Out of Combat rez
2. Single target, no AE capability
3. No CD as far as I remember
4. Medium to long induction

Mins

1. Out of combat - Although I know a mins can trait rally (not sure if this is even done out of PVE anymore).
2. Also my understanding is that mins can trait for AE rez now...does that make it in combat too?
3. Medium to long induction
4. I think no or minimal CD

Captain

1. In combat - This one kills you more times than almost anything else. You get ahead of the curve with a few well executed kills and bang the RK is back up with long creep CDs down .
2. Really long CD I believe (10 or 15mins?)
3. Low Health on rez?

LM

1. Out of Combat
2. Like a 27 minute induction
3. Target could potentially die from a sharp blade of grass
4. Uses pipe weed...blasphemy
5. Hard to get LMs attention - "Hang on Wind Lore'ing those BAs...hang on Entroflstomping that pile of creeps...hang on lightning blasting that other pile of creeps...hang on Sticky gourd!...ooooh Wind Lore is up again..."

Yeah let's talk about rezzes...

Originally Posted by Moofer

Whether the parses are a bit off or not, I think your point is actually a great one Jaiyne. Defiler for example has 2 on the move heals, the others are fairly long inductions. So based on this point a defiler under freep attention is at about 300HPS? (bio that right?, fully traited?).

Freep heals scale better and they have more traits and/or skills that reduce knockback or make things instant...right? Still by far out heal a defiler in utility and magnitude even while most of them are traited to roflyellstomp at people all day in WS (waaaaaahhhhh, haaaaaah! SHUT UP!)

RK's can keep up their normal rotation (MV Spam) for 10s out of ever minute even when being interrupt spammed. Other than that they too will be shut down by 1 warg in flayer that can debuff inductions by nearly 50% and spam interrupts.

In fact if it was a Minstrel instead of an RK we would probably just die most of the time, because it's so easy to zerg them down. I don't know if I would ever want a minstrel healing and it's mostly because of the fact that minstrels suck at pvp healing that Baslion is DPS in every single video (he also doesn't know how to heal but that's not important).

Basically a minstrel can pull the same (if not more) HPS as an RK PROVIDED that they are freecasting. Otherwise they will just get interrupt spammed and die without extreme support (i.e shieldwall).

Originally Posted by Moofer

Putting numbers to it is somewhat pointless, you just need to watch to see the huge difference and the clear issue that needs to be addressed in some manner. Can you or an RK keep a target alive with your feet planted with 4 BA's shooting it? Pretty sure you can most of the time if it's not a low moral freep (you need to have something to work with). Can a creep healer do the same thing with 4 hunters pewpewing? (remember we're not talking about MT or Bubbles), maybe for a short time, the healing inbalance is there because of the disparity of damage. Freeps heal more and damage more...that's not balance...that's - "oh no the baby's car seat fell off the bed onto the hardwood floor..upside down....and the baby was in it...then the headboard tipped over and fell on top of that"

This is 100% on the shoulders of the freeps in question. I would actually say yes, because most hunters don't know how to build their character. I've seen a defiler stack HoTs on themselves and not die to a similar situation. On the other hand, I've seen Shilow (1 hunter) destroy a Defiler with his HoTs + 2-3 other Defilers cross healing him with their HoTs. The guy had over 2 rows of HoTs on him and just died. Of course for a hunter to function in a small group they need to either win the fight in the first 30s, or have a guardian permanently shield wall them.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Heck yeah.

Flies are pretty ridiculous once they actually get on a target you want them on...that's a given.

Meh, not really I'm pretty used to just sitting in song brother now when in a group. Sure I can't protect the healer as effectively, but I have power problems anyways so for longer fights I have to drop to it no matter what.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Uruk heal, sometimes i get the impression you still think it works the way it did before...regardless.
3k heal on 3min CD, group only...pretty good without a doube. Like having a 3min Manheal CD with no root.

Keep in mind as well that BAs have it too...so there's more than just WLs running with it.

It's a great offset from a crit'd remorseless or a swift bow or scribes spark. But it's not a big deal. Most big hits from freeps pretty much offset anything that heal is doing for ya. But it IS handy.

In a raid setting you may have 1-3 uruks in a group....that's certainly of some use, but the skill has NEVER EVER EVER EVER been what you have always made it out to be over the years. Used properly it's an advantage, certainly. Is it actually ever leveraged as the group heal it is?, rarely because groups do not always take damage evenly..... Your repeating point on this skill is that it heals everyone for 3k (3x6 = 18k) 18k HEAL OMG. The reality is that skill is normally popped to heal a single target. 3k single target heal...very good no doubt but a drop in the bucket with the damage freeps are putting out atm..

The nerf to uruk heal was huge, but I guess creeps are used to having all their nice things getting taken away. It's better now with audacity, but still isn't much more than a speedbump.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Rez imbalance...yeah for sure creeps are on the bottom of this one as far as I can see.

WL[*]Medium to Long CD (5 or 6mins i think)[*]Only AE no single target or ranged rez (bad). You must be on top of the dead creep. Can't rez multiple people unless they died in a heap. It's pathetic when you hear a raid leader to ask everyone to die in a pile [*]AE can hit multiples (good & bad) if it's more than one dead creep, usually not a great idea to BR unless uruks and quitters are up on instant cast. Creeps just don't have enough burst healing to get multiples topped off or protected long enough to top them off. Without a doubt a great use of Uruk heal.. IF they all happen to be in the same group. However, popping up a bunch of creeps at once with a single skill is still pretty sweet in many situations. (Garny -"did they just rez....bang sticky gourd, ents....ok they're all dead again"[*]Must trait or rezzed come back and dangerous health levels

Captains used to be able to do something similar to this, but it got nerfed with ROI. I could trait CoV to be 2 target, then reset the CD, then use my induction res. Could res up to 5 people, but again it had alot of ifs attached to it. For CoV two people would have to die within 10m of each other and I only had like 8s to use it after someone died. My induction res was also a 4s induction so if even 1 person was on me I would not be able to get it off.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Defilers (correct me where i'm wrong, cuz i don't have one).[*]Out of combat rez. [*]No AE capability[*]Moderate to minimal CD, but you definately can't chain rez.[*]Long induction

Yeah it's a 30s CD so it's not even worth dropping combat to use.

Originally Posted by Moofer

RK[*]Out of Combat rez[*]Single target, no AE capability[*]No CD as far as I remember[*]Medium to long induction

No CD, but an RK can do much more if they just stick to healing rather than trying to drop combat, again not worth it.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Mins[*]Out of combat - Although I know a mins can trait rally (not sure if this is even done out of PVE anymore). [*]Also my understanding is that mins can trait for AE rez now...does that make it in combat too? [*]Medium to long induction[*]I think no or minimal CD

This is what's broken, on this server and others minstrels won't even heal. One will just sit out of combat in the back and use this. It's an out of combat AOE res with no cooldown pretty sad that people do this but so it goes.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Captain [*]In combat - This one kills you more times than almost anything else. You get ahead of the curve with a few well executed kills and bang the RK is back up with long creep CDs down .[*]Really long CD I believe (10 or 15mins?)[*]Low Health on rez?

I have 2, one that is instant cast on a 30min CD and one that has a 4s induction that has a CD ranging from 30min to 2.5min. Smart captains will trait their res otherwise the instant cast one will res you at 20% morale. A smart BA can just send the guy back down, traited it will res them at 70% morale. The other res also gets better when traited, it loses 2s off the induction, 10min off the CD and will res at 100% morale and 75% power. Still having even 1 person on you makes this a pain to get off.

Originally Posted by Moofer

LM[*]Out of Combat[*]Like a 27 minute induction[*]Target could potentially die from a sharp blade of grass[*]Uses pipe weed...blasphemy[*]Hard to get LMs attention - "Hang on Wind Lore'ing those BAs...hang on Entroflstomping that pile of creeps...hang on lightning blasting that other pile of creeps...hang on Sticky gourd!...ooooh Wind Lore is up again..."

The res for LMs got buffed, but it used to give you a -70% outgoing damage debuff lol. It still has like a 10 second induction and 10 second animation so IDK who would drop to use this skill.

The only thing I can think of that creeps have better than freeps is healing debuffs. Champions get a 25% with a set, RK's have a 30% inherent, and captains get a very unreliable 25% with a set (that nobody will ever use). Defilers have a 75% one with a trait and a 25% inherent skill, wargs have a 25% inherent proc and reavers have a 50% inherent skill.

BTW jaiyne your build needs more crit, I could optimize that for you...

Heck, I STILL see people complaining about man-heal, or at the very least citing it as some MASSIVE advantage to have.

If they can complain about man heal I can certainly complain about Uruk heal. It's FAR FAR FAR better. 100Xs better. At least. (hard to quantify the root aspect of man heal...but let me tell you, I've died with it on my hotbar more often than used it to survive) Good in PvE, completely an albatross in PvMP.

I don't feel like quoting and breaking down posts, etc., but:

Minstrels healing in PvP can be completely shut down by any bit of harassment. Any minstrel pulling 1600 HPS (which is ludicrous without popping big CDs) in the 'moors is being ignored and, due to that reason, the creep group deserves to die.

Now a minstrel can, if traited for heals (which you would never do outright in the 'moors because you sacrifice several better PvP traits), kite-heal mildly well, but to nowhere near the extent a defiler or RK can.

What minstrels provide to a small group: mild burst damage, mild group HoTs/ICMR, flash heals if we drop WS, buffs, rezzing, and moderate CC/harass.

In a raid (which are mostly unnecessary in the current 'moors meta), it makes more sense for a minstrel to heal and they can be very effective healing if not shut down or harassed.

Originally Posted by Dolmir

BTW jaiyne your build needs more crit, I could optimize that for you...

Ya my crit in my raid heal build is lower because I am taking advantage of an instrument (I presume bugged lol) with 24% healing crit mod so I don't need the raw crit. Crit in DPS gear is 20% unbuffed though (oops edit)

Oh hey while I'm at it. Let me point out that a couple things:

If creeps want more HPS output, they'll need to give up being so tanky. Particularly WLs.

I just fraps'd a bunch of creeps (Mlsoun, Arrangar, Arankathil, Ugly, Hazbak, and more) literally tank all of EC - including the fat dwarf - and never have a single casualty, while they zerg the one freep (me) on the map inside. I still lived at least 3 minutes because I'm not a complete dolt, but yeah...

The day freep healers can tank like that is the day they should have less healing output. Pretty sure a captain can't even come close there, but then, Dolmir would have to comment on that. Dude, if you can tank 20 NPCs including a chieftain, while keeping everyone in your group at full health, then lemme know.

/troll

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Oh hey while I'm at it. Let me point out that a couple things:

If creeps want more HPS output, they'll need to give up being so tanky. Particularly WLs.

I just fraps'd a bunch of creeps (Mlsoun, Arrangar, Arankathil, Ugly, Hazbak, and more) literally tank all of EC - including the fat dwarf - and never have a single casualty, while they zerg the one freep (me) on the map inside. I still lived at least 3 minutes because I'm not a complete dolt, but yeah...

The day freep healers can tank like that is the day they should have less healing output. Pretty sure a captain can't even come close there, but then, Dolmir would have to comment on that. Dude, if you can tank 20 NPCs including a chieftain, while keeping everyone in your group at full health, then lemme know.

/troll

Well that depends, do I have to do it by myself? Do I get a Celebraena? Do I get another captain?

Basically with someone else healing me yes then yes I can tank all of OC and the tyrant if he is there. If it's just me? Maybe for 12-30s, but once my extremely poor self heals run out I would need to ####. I don't even have all my audacity gear and I'm extremely tanky (with 9k morale). The issue is that I have no self heals to speak of, now if I could use WoC on myself it would be a different story.

Another thing I hate about my class, excellent ability to keep others up, no way to keep yourself up (but plenty of ways to kills yourself lol).

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Oh hey while I'm at it. Let me point out that a couple things:

If creeps want more HPS output, they'll need to give up being so tanky. Particularly WLs.

I just fraps'd a bunch of creeps (Mlsoun, Arrangar, Arankathil, Ugly, Hazbak, and more) literally tank all of EC - including the fat dwarf - and never have a single casualty, while they zerg the one freep (me) on the map inside. I still lived at least 3 minutes because I'm not a complete dolt, but yeah...

The day freep healers can tank like that is the day they should have less healing output. Pretty sure a captain can't even come close there, but then, Dolmir would have to comment on that. Dude, if you can tank 20 NPCs including a chieftain, while keeping everyone in your group at full health, then lemme know.

/troll

I'm not going to argue that kiting npcs in this game is incredibly easy, but to me Minstrels are already very tankish, though they also have heals, and a lot of uninterrupted range dps on the run. They seem to be getting close to running out of things they still don't have, heh.

I've had well played minstrels go into OC after me with a brand, survive being attacked by the npcs that get pulled, kill me (it takes them about 40 seconds to kill me, 50 seconds I have my heal up) and finally leave OC without even coming close to dying. and this while I also had been trying to dps them down.

They sure use a brand, but I wanted to point out how tankish they can be too.

Originally Posted by Forza

I've had well played minstrels go into OC after me with a brand, survive being attacked by the npcs that get pulled, kill me (it takes them about 40 seconds to kill me, 50 seconds I have my heal up) and finally leave OC without even coming close to dying. and this while I also had been trying to dps them down.

Here's the thing, minstrels are way more survivable than any heavy armor class because they can self heal.

Then we have wardens, which are turbine's troll of the moors.

Originally Posted by Dolmir

Then we have wardens, which are turbine's troll of the moors.

Turtle!!! The only way go!

Originally Posted by Treelios

Turtle!!! The only way go!

You're a turtle.

Originally Posted by Baslin

You're a turtle.

You bet your sweet azz I am.

Gleowine and Pouncival I raise my poison blades and salute you both. I got as far as the third page before I started to go blind reading this. I'm absent from this game and forums of late, the game holds little of interest. I was alerted to this thread by a friend and I've noticed that after 5 years nothing has changed nor was I expecting it too.

From what I understand this video is just one of a few confrontations of late with Freeps where entire raids of Creeps Ranks 5 or 6 ish are being wiped by 1 group of Freeps ... I don't care if the Creeps are Drunk or playing the game on their cell phones. If it's happening all the time it's happening as intended Freeps=win, thank Turbine. I've got 3 - 75 lvl Freeps and 1 rank 10 Creep and 5 rank 7 Creeps; if you think you can convince me otherwise don't waste your breath. My /played says ... Turbine owes you a 5 years of your life back.

Gleowine, some times I think in the whole state of New York there are 5 Mets fans, 4 plus me. But the two times I've seen the Mets in the World Series, well lets say there is magic in the world because suddenly 5 becomes 5 million 8) Everyone wants to sit at the kool table in the caffeteria and everyone wants to the quarterback. Human nature. Me I always play the underdog cause when the underdog beats you, hehehe