Hi guise, Garny here! I've got some more baylife videos for you to watch, since you guys enjoyed my first video, I've got another one for you to watch. Thanks for the fights and enjoy!
COME INTO THE MOORS, AND FEEL THE POUNCE OF BORNTOOWN! Borntown - Champion - 75 r7!!! - *OG* Borntoown - Warg - 75 r7!!!- Pirate Lords - back in action
I'm not sure if I appear in any of that video Garnybaby - and even if I did I don't think it would make any difference
That is a great display of skill and knowledge, and a testament to your time played.
I'm not saying anything bad whatsoever, but Suicidal Warg Squad now has a new mission. Either we change your taste in music for videos, or we eat you - somehow
Love & Hugs
Fluffy Hithy
If I had a penny for every child I ran over - I could maybe afford car insurance
Folks I have spoken to who are leaving, and some I have just heard were leaving. And by the way my good mutt, it says close to 65 indicating an approximate number which may be higher or lower in actuality.
Last edited by Aedon; May 08 2012 at 02:12 AM.
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
We Pounce Because We Care
Please watch the above videos. Yes, the music sucks badly, but it may help you understand why Landy is about to lose close to 65 vet creep players.
Thank you,
Garny, try some better music. The stuff gives me a headache. *grins*
There are multiple of things that could of been done for yous to wipe them. Still kind of laughing how a lm and champ provided enough dps to burst through those heals or lack of heals from the healers.
There are multiple of things that could of been done for yous to wipe them. Still kind of laughing how a lm and champ provided enough dps to burst through those heals or lack of heals from the healers.
Good video tho Garny!
I asked that Turbine take a look at its completely borked PvP system.
Do Garny and crew work well together? ---Yes
Is the system of PvP as it stands now balanced?----NO
My original answer to this was longer and better thought out. But Turbines forums could not handle it so I am reduced to, Moors Bad.
Last edited by Aedon; May 08 2012 at 06:33 PM.
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
We Pounce Because We Care
What's broken in that video? There are imbalances in the Moors, yes, but they're not shown in that video IMO. In groups, people either play their primary role or they don't and it shows. That group is playing their roles - in every situation. The healer is healing, the LM is keeping everything debuffed supporting with SI/power/silence clears, the DPS is ripping stuff up, the captain(s) are healing and using a TON of defeat responses, etc. Pretty plain to see what goes wrong there, IMO.
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
Folks I have spoken to who are leaving, and some I have just heard were leaving. And by the way my good mutt, it says close to 65 indicating an approximate number which may be higher or lower in actuality.
Well to be perfectly clear , as of now we have 55 on our roster that are guaranteed to leave plus more that haven`t yet signed up on our forums but have indicated their interested in joining us for GW2 on our facebook page.
What does not kill you makes you stronger....
Though that which kills you makes your mother stronger....
What's broken in that video? There are imbalances in the Moors, yes, but they're not shown in that video IMO. In groups, people either play their primary role or they don't and it shows. That group is playing their roles - in every situation. The healer is healing, the LM is keeping everything debuffed supporting with SI/power/silence clears, the DPS is ripping stuff up, the captain(s) are healing and using a TON of defeat responses, etc. Pretty plain to see what goes wrong there, IMO.
Logic isn't welcome here.
...and LOL @ the lack of SI comment. When we're roaming, Garny will dismount, SI the whole group, and mount back up. What a joke.
What's broken in that video? There are imbalances in the Moors, yes, but they're not shown in that video IMO
Let me try to answer that question. After, feel free to agree/desagree if you like. As opposed to you, i think this video is quite explicit about whats wrong in the current Moors.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
In groups, people either play their primary role or they don't and it shows. That group is playing their roles - in every situation.
Absolutly. Everyone agree that Garny's group are all excellent players and they are performing well together.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
The healer is healing
Correct. But pay close attention to the huge amount of HoTs Garny is receiving during most the battle, especially when the battle is at his peak. This outheal a defiler maximum output, by a mile. This bring the topic of the current imbalance in regard of the healing capacity of both faction, especially under fighting conditions. While one side can AoE HoTs almost in total impunity thanks to no knockback/defeat responses, the other is limited to 2 (rather poor) single target skills.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
the LM is keeping everything debuffed supporting with SI/power/silence clears
You described here game mechanisms that are non-existant creep side. We simply dont have anything comparable. The SI/silence clear are greatly reducing the operating efficiency of the bulk of any creep raid in todays Moors, the wargs. In such battle conditions, wargs are reduced to be simply DPS support, doing OK in terms of damage dealing but rather poorly in term of survivability. Its tough to keep a standard warg up if hes getting pounded by any freep DPS class. Forget it if hes focus fired, hes gone in less than 3 seconds, no matter if hes focus healed by creep healers.
Burst damage > HoTs
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
, the DPS is ripping stuff up
I dont think anyone will dispute the fact that freep DPS is greater in any category, is it AoE, DoTs, Burst or critical level/% to occur. Look at 3:55 the AoE done by Garny on a group of creeps. I counted 7 targets that received about 1k average of initial damage plus 200-300 per each 3 seconds tics. Theres simply nothing comparable, even remotly, creep side. And thats coming from a LM, that isnt even considered a DPS class.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
the captain(s) are healing and using a TON of defeat responses, etc.
Again, this bring the topic of the disparity between the 2 factions. The captain counterpart, the WL, dont have this type of defeat response skill that he can spam non-stop group wide. All he have is some rather average healing output skill on a long CD.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
Pretty plain to see what goes wrong there, IMO.
Its a matter of perspective, i guess. When you are on the receiving end, you tend to be able to see things that elude you when you are on the stronger side.
Last edited by whitefox1313; May 08 2012 at 09:16 PM.
What I see is a LOT of creeps trying to just burst through a target without warg rooting it or disarming while she's still attuning. I also see a very clear lack of healing going on with the Defilers. There were a lot of defilers in the first part of the video (5?) and the only one - literally - that had any self HoTs at all was Wyver.
I agree with a lot of the imbalances between both factions but what stands out to me the most in the video isn't that. It's what's not happening that stands out to me.
I also disagree on a lot of the debuffs argument. Creeps need to use their debuffs more - particularly defilers. Not flies, not blight (and it looks to me like people are too focused on getting flies out and blight down - which does little against a group with a HoH captain). But curse a target before you warg root, disarm, silence and burst it down. They just melt (after captain bubble is down) if they're the only healer.
Also yes, WLs could use a defeat response heal. Good fit for them probably.
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
I also disagree on a lot of the debuffs argument. Creeps need to use their debuffs more - particularly defilers. Not flies, not blight (and it looks to me like people are too focused on getting flies out and blight down - which does little against a group with a HoH captain).
Theres a very good reason why most defilers are using those 2 debuffs. They are the only one worth casting. All the others have very trivial effects and dont even worth being in your toolsbar, with the exception of Curse of The Deadly Sorrows.
+20% induction casting time/+5% incoming damage/-10% run speed are exemple of the current debuffs totally obsolete in the current PvP system. And all of those are single target with long induction. When you have your hands full trying to keep up your raidmates, you simply cant afford to lose those precious seconds.
Oh, and one more thing...All creeps debuffs are potable/clearable while only a few freep ones can be poted/cleared.
Last edited by whitefox1313; May 08 2012 at 10:51 PM.
What I see is a LOT of creeps trying to just burst through a target without warg rooting it or disarming while she's still attuning... But curse a target before you warg root, disarm, silence and burst it down....
The number of wargs that use Flayer at all is very small, and probably even fewer in raids. Why? The damage is largely based on applying a lot of DoTs. Even with the increased mits, most raid engagements simply don't allow us enough time in range to apply those DoTs. Besides, the difference in survivability can mostly be made up by ducking in and out of cover.
As for the root itself... It's unreliable, very close range, and easily interrupted. If wargs aren't moving, they're dead. Silence? The only targets silence is reserved for are minnies and captains. Both of those classes can easily remove multiple effects and one has a period of immunity. Any attempt to silence either of those classes is going to be a momentary stall, and nothing more. I'll grant that a well timed disarm can be very useful, but again, no Flayer wargs.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
I also see a very clear lack of healing going on with the Defilers. There were a lot of defilers in the first part of the video (5?) and the only one - literally - that had any self HoTs at all was Wyver...
I also disagree on a lot of the debuffs argument. Creeps need to use their debuffs more - particularly defilers. Not flies, not blight (and it looks to me like people are too focused on getting flies out and blight down - which does little against a group with a HoH captain).
Cross apply Bio's comments about defiler heals here. Weaker HoTs and single target heals mean that when you're trying to keep group members up, there's very little time for anything else. Creep healers have a hard time dealing with focus fire as it is without pausing every couple seconds to stack HoTs on themselves. [This is the main reason BoD is such a pain to use. You can throw a bubble out to redirect the damage to yourself, but you usually don't have the HoTs to survive the focus fire for more than a couple seconds. You just have to hope your target will get out of range or get other heals in that time.]
For the debuffs, if the LMs are doing their primary role, they'll be quickly cleared won't they?
"I've brushed with death so often, I should start giving him high-fives when I pass..."
"Take that lorebreaker! Behold the wrath of Tolkien!" ~Harumph
Let me try to answer that question. After, feel free to agree/desagree if you like. As opposed to you, i think this video is quite explicit about whats wrong in the current Moors.
Absolutly. Everyone agree that Garny's group are all excellent players and they are performing well together.
Correct. But pay close attention to the huge amount of HoTs Garny is receiving during most the battle, especially when the battle is at his peak. This outheal a defiler maximum output, by a mile. This bring the topic of the current imbalance in regard of the healing capacity of both faction, especially under fighting conditions. While one side can AoE HoTs almost in total impunity thanks to no knockback/defeat responses, the other is limited to 2 (rather poor) single target skills.
You described here game mechanisms that are non-existant creep side. We simply dont have anything comparable. The SI/silence clear are greatly reducing the operating efficiency of the bulk of any creep raid in todays Moors, the wargs. In such battle conditions, wargs are reduced to be simply DPS support, doing OK in terms of damage dealing but rather poorly in term of survivability. Its tough to keep a standard warg up if hes getting pounded by any freep DPS class. Forget it if hes focus fired, hes gone in less than 3 seconds, no matter if hes focus healed by creep healers.
Burst damage > HoTs
I dont think anyone will dispute the fact that freep DPS is greater in any category, is it AoE, DoTs, Burst or critical level/% to occur. Look at 3:55 the AoE done by Garny on a group of creeps. I counted 7 targets that received about 1k average of initial damage plus 200-300 per each 3 seconds tics. Theres simply nothing comparable, even remotly, creep side. And thats coming from a LM, that isnt even considered a DPS class.
Again, this bring the topic of the disparity between the 2 factions. The captain counterpart, the WL, dont have this type of defeat response skill that he can spam non-stop group wide. All he have is some rather average healing output skill on a long CD.
Its a matter of perspective, i guess. When you are on the receiving end, you tend to be able to see things that elude you when you are on the stronger side.
This is it exactly, and what I was saying about what is wrong in the moors. The freep group was working well together, but the creep group was as well. We just have a hell of a lot less to work with.
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
We Pounce Because We Care
The number of wargs that use Flayer at all is very small, and probably even fewer in raids. Why? The damage is largely based on applying a lot of DoTs. Even with the increased mits, most raid engagements simply don't allow us enough time in range to apply those DoTs. Besides, the difference in survivability can mostly be made up by ducking in and out of cover.
As for the root itself... It's unreliable, very close range, and easily interrupted. If wargs aren't moving, they're dead. Silence? The only targets silence is reserved for are minnies and captains. Both of those classes can easily remove multiple effects and one has a period of immunity. Any attempt to silence either of those classes is going to be a momentary stall, and nothing more. I'll grant that a well timed disarm can be very useful, but again, no Flayer wargs.
Cross apply Bio's comments about defiler heals here. Weaker HoTs and single target heals mean that when you're trying to keep group members up, there's very little time for anything else. Creep healers have a hard time dealing with focus fire as it is without pausing every couple seconds to stack HoTs on themselves. [This is the main reason BoD is such a pain to use. You can throw a bubble out to redirect the damage to yourself, but you usually don't have the HoTs to survive the focus fire for more than a couple seconds. You just have to hope your target will get out of range or get other heals in that time.]
For the debuffs, if the LMs are doing their primary role, they'll be quickly cleared won't they?
Some good points Arctic. I'm tempted to go through point by point but it's just too late at night for me. Suffice to say when I watched video, a few things stood out to me. The RK's bread and butter heals are also single target and she always appeared to have the small ooc HoTs on herself starting a fight - obviously anticipating the barrage of focus fire to burn her down before she can attune further once she enters combat. The big heals aren't even available unless they use consumables immediately and RKs can't do any prepping because every good heal is gated by being in combat and then gated by tiers of healing attunement. Regardless, prioritizing flies - for example - instead of heals in a fight like that with a very strong HoH captain doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Neither does charging into an enemy camp with not even a single heal on themselves. I dunno.
As for debuffs, most people don't use them enough or even properly on both sides. Plenty of freep debuffs are absolutely pottable - many of the really bad ones that I can think of off the top of my head anyway (windlore, firelore, etc). But of course the tricky part is removing the one you want to remove and not the lesser ones. But yes, the fact that creeps don't have a class that can remove debuffs like a LM can with wounds/diseases - or a captain with fear effects, is definitely a weakness. Among many other things, obviously.
The warg flayer thing is a whole other subject. I would imagine having a couple in shadow and a couple in flayer would be a pretty important tool for a raid serious about disrupting healers or casters. But, obviously my experience on creepside is limited recently, so I could be wrong.
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
Jaineybaby - I can say with 100% honesty that a group of wargs mixed stance is just incredibly difficult to run.
It's near impossible to get 4 or 5 to run in Shadow, attack, de-stance to get the non-stanced effects, and coordinate those who DO have Flayer to contribute. Of course, by the time any target has been engaged, all our Shadow wargs have all pounced - complete waste of time.
All a big mess really.
We still try though!
Love & Hugs
Fluffy Hithy
If I had a penny for every child I ran over - I could maybe afford car insurance
...
As for debuffs, most people don't use them enough or even properly on both sides. Plenty of freep debuffs are absolutely pottable - many of the really bad ones that I can think of off the top of my head anyway (windlore, firelore, etc). But of course the tricky part is removing the one you want to remove and not the lesser ones. But yes, the fact that creeps don't have a class that can remove debuffs like a LM can with wounds/diseases - or a captain with fear effects, is definitely a weakness. Among many other things, obviously.
For the sake of not posting a wall of text here, I 'll try to be as brief as possible.
If you say that debuffs in a fight like that are easily potable, then I assume you are not aware on how easy is for a LM to apply AoE debuffs, and make sure the creep doesn't ever get to clear the right one. I mean, if it's easy for a LM to keep a group of creeps from clearing any debuffs, how can it be easy for creeps to clear one of them by using a pot.
Like it has been stated before by others, nobody is saying that those players don't know what they are doing, they play their class well, but it is also biased not to acknowledge that there is something out of whack when they are able to pull this off.
In fact, just a few months ago, these same players in garny's group that have been around for a while, weren't able to do this same thing they are doing in their videos. To me that is proof, that it was actually a change introduced by turbine that is making this possible.
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
Here is a little reminder of some of the most effective debuffs LMs have against a group of creeps, only Ancient Craft and Fire Lore cannot be perma applied. Btw, the only skill that requires the LM to be facing his target is Ancient Craft, for all the rest, you can be facing backwards, and it won't matter; this also happens to a lot of the LM's DPS skills. Are LMs really that difficult to play? you be the judge.
Also, consider that Tar and Benediction of the Raven can be applied to an unlimited amount of people, Tar being able to stay active 100% of the time, and Benediction of the raven being easily spammed.
To the right, is the skill that will easily clear most of creep debuffs and wound dots for the whole group with the press of a button and on a 5 second cooldown.
and Just for fun, what do you think is your Fire Mitigation Stat when you have Sticky tar, Benediction of the Raven and Ancient Craft on you?
Really, this class is so good at Debuffs and curing them that a while back it made sense that it wasn't a DPS class to keep the game balanced. Now they are one of the Highest AOE DPS in game.
P.S. Improved Knowledge of Cure only show max level 70 because my LM is level 65, at 75, I assume it will cure up to 80.
Last edited by Forza; May 09 2012 at 03:11 AM.
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
Some good points Arctic. I'm tempted to go through point by point but it's just too late at night for me. Suffice to say when I watched video, a few things stood out to me. The RK's bread and butter heals are also single target and she always appeared to have the small ooc HoTs on herself starting a fight - obviously anticipating the barrage of focus fire to burn her down before she can attune further once she enters combat. The big heals aren't even available unless they use consumables immediately and RKs can't do any prepping because every good heal is gated by being in combat and then gated by tiers of healing attunement. Regardless, prioritizing flies - for example - instead of heals in a fight like that with a very strong HoH captain doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Neither does charging into an enemy camp with not even a single heal on themselves. I dunno.
As for debuffs, most people don't use them enough or even properly on both sides. Plenty of freep debuffs are absolutely pottable - many of the really bad ones that I can think of off the top of my head anyway (windlore, firelore, etc). But of course the tricky part is removing the one you want to remove and not the lesser ones. But yes, the fact that creeps don't have a class that can remove debuffs like a LM can with wounds/diseases - or a captain with fear effects, is definitely a weakness. Among many other things, obviously.
The warg flayer thing is a whole other subject. I would imagine having a couple in shadow and a couple in flayer would be a pretty important tool for a raid serious about disrupting healers or casters. But, obviously my experience on creepside is limited recently, so I could be wrong.
Hi, you must be new here so I'll give you a few tips. As a landroval player you are expected to not analyze what's going on. Not in such depth anyway, it's more appropriate to say OP, abuse, ezmode or exploit. Moreover you are expected to QQ in proportion to Niagara falls every time you are outplayed. Most importantly NEVER even think that you could be doing something better. You must be resolute without a doubt that you are the king of whatever class you play and that in every situation you played perfectly. In fact you are an ex-professional korean starcraft player that has taken up lotro as a pastime and always play with 100% of your ability. Most importantly, when someone gives you tips on how to play make sure to tell them where to stick it. Welcome to landroval and enjoy your stay!
@ all those people who say that the creeps were playing well. No you are wrong, in the LC fight, pick a warg, any warg (there are alot of them). Now follow his movement, only him, it doesn't have to be a long time, maybe a minute.
I was astounded by what I saw, there were people who literally got lost, they would walk away from the fight, sit there doing nothing, walk back in and die.
Or they would get in position, maybe get an attack off, realizing that their target had moved the player would move, backpeddal like a boss, then make a wide keyboard swing. Eventually ending up off screen, a few seconds later there they are attacking an NPC.
Wargs are the class with the highest dps on creepside, yet there are like 3 people on this server that can play them.
Originally Posted by Forza
In fact, just a few months ago, these same players in garny's group that have been around for a while, weren't able to do this same thing they are doing in their videos. To me that is proof, that it was actually a change introduced by turbine that is making this possible.
In the first video everyone except for Garny was using Orthanc PVE gear. In the new video most people (particularly Celebraena) had their full PvP set. Nothing else has changed except we now all have -30% incoming damage, and set bonuses that are beneficial to PvP.
The truth was, we could do this way before audacity, back when Dragon and skirm raids were endgame we tried a healing RK + LM + HoH captain. We fought against 12 creeps with only a 3 man group and realized that we might have been on to something.
Originally Posted by Forza
Here is a little reminder of some of the most effective debuffs LMs have against a group of creeps, only Ancient Craft and Fire Lore cannot be perma applied. Btw, the only skill that requires the LM to be facing his target is Ancient Craft, for all the rest, you can be facing backwards, and it won't matter; this also happens to a lot of the LM's DPS skills. Are LMs really that difficult to play? you be the judge.
To be clear, yes we run very dps light, so Garny has to be able to do damage on top of the following: Keep SI on everyone, Clear Silences, Clear Disarms, Disrupt people with a well timed random fast loader, debuff the ranged dps, debuff the melee dps, keep tar down, throw out an occasional heal and on top of all that do big damage.
Not to mention the fact that this game has the most poorly designed induction system I have ever seen. If everyone is focusing an induction class their dps will literally go to zero. Even a simple thing like sending a spider baby on him can nerf his dps by something as silly as 30%.
Originally Posted by Forza
Also, consider that Tar and Benediction of the Raven can be applied to an unlimited amount of people, Tar being able to stay active 100% of the time, and Benediction of the raven being easily spammed.
To the right, is the skill that will easily clear most of creep debuffs and wound dots for the whole group with the press of a button and on a 5 second cooldown.
and Just for fun, what do you think is your Fire Mitigation Stat when you have Sticky tar, Benediction of the Raven and Ancient Craft on you?
Really, this class is so good at Debuffs and curing them that a while back it made sense that it wasn't a DPS class to keep the game balanced. Now they are one of the Highest AOE DPS in game.
As I mentioned before Garny needs to run DPS so he can't trait improved clear. If it isn't traited then it's single target the same with sticky tar, it's got a 1:30 CD because he doesn't have enough trait slots.
Actually all the tooltips you listed are from an AM traited LM, which Garny isn't (and never would be in the moors), Fire/Wind Lore only have 3 targets for him. Actually it looks like you also had 3 KoA traits as well, so obviously you are using some weird support build.
Wow the Lotro forums are fubar...trying this again.
Originally Posted by Umbrarg
Jaineybaby - I can say with 100% honesty that a group of wargs mixed stance is just incredibly difficult to run.
Fluffy Hithy
Actually the only reason I even mentioned it is actually how effective groups you have been in are with casters. Most of the time when grouped I am with only 1 or 2 others, and I don't typically even have a captain with me so I don't even really know if this would be effective with groups like are shown in the video, but generally speaking, flayer bleeds wreak havoc on healers and casters.
Even while under All Fates, RK heals get interrupted and minstrel's Feign is interrupted, on top of everything else for as long as the Brute bleeds are active. Even improved raise the spirit - the traited kind - gets interrupted. BTW, no other skill can interrupt a channeled feign outside of a latent poison on a target with no SI. Pretty powerful stuff that doesn't exist freepside and nor should it.
Originally Posted by Forza
If you say that debuffs in a fight like that are easily potable, then I assume you are not aware on how easy is for a LM to apply AoE debuffs, and make sure the creep doesn't ever get to clear the right one. I mean, if it's easy for a LM to keep a group of creeps from clearing any debuffs, how can it be easy for creeps to clear one of them by using a pot.
I actually never said they were "easily pottable." I was correcting Bio by pointing out that plenty were clearable but difficult to remove for the exact reasons you state here. Still, the fact remains plenty of them are in fact pottable on both sides, but with other effects, they're difficult to remove.
Originally Posted by Forza
In fact, just a few months ago, these same players in garny's group that have been around for a while, weren't able to do this same thing they are doing in their videos. To me that is proof, that it was actually a change introduced by turbine that is making this possible.
What changes would make this possible? IMO, the only change worth noting for freeps recently is finally fixing healing RKs so they can bring utility and heals to a group again. And as for LMs, if anything, a LM's ability to control a fight has been greatly reduced over the years. And now with Audacity on top of DR and CC pots, CC - one of their core roles - doesn't exist in the Moors anymore.
The biggest change is Audacity of course. Both sides have access to that.
Originally Posted by Forza
Are LMs really that difficult to play? you be the judge.
Yeah, in the Moors I think they are difficult to play. Good ones are micro managing support, DPS, and debuffs in the right orders. I see the LM as a pretty involved class to play well in PvMP, particularly since CC just doesn't exist beyond a blip anymore. The operative word being, "well." Luckily for creeps, a large majority of LMs don't play like that and they're easy to kill.
Originally Posted by Forza
and Just for fun, what do you think is your Fire Mitigation Stat when you have Sticky tar, Benediction of the Raven and Ancient Craft on you?
Really low. But useful debuffs exist on both sides when paired together. How about a Defiler's flies with 100% uptime, AoE power drain? Add a WL Banner of Terror on top of that and watch what happens to everyone's power. Pretty powerful, right? And yes, this opportunity exists only on creepside as a great tool to break up freepballs - just like Blight is a powerful AoE hotspot with a nasty healing debuff and stacking DoT on exit, also unlimited targets - unlike Windlore or Firelore, which are limited by traits.
It's pretty convenient to ignore all the tools available to both sides when just trying to point fingers and say "imba!!!!" when it fact it's more about what skills people are using and when.
Bottom line: we all know there are imbalances in the Moors, but IMO, against a group that is balanced and well played like that, you can't just "focus fire" with random skills. Just like other freep groups that don't have that set-up in terms of classes that are spec'd into specific trait lines, and of course being played well, won't be able to do what is shown in the vid. It's a pretty specific set-up that obviously works.
I don't see blatant broken mechanics in that video. I'm not saying broken mechanics don't exist. There is a difference.
I wasn't in that group so I have no idea the ins and outs of it. I am only commenting on what stood out to me when I watched it - and these things stood out to me pretty quickly.
Last edited by Gillianrial; May 09 2012 at 10:31 AM.
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
Wow the Lotro forums are fubar...trying this again.
Heh, I got a little bit of that myself; so annoying.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
...
Even while under All Fates, RK heals get interrupted and minstrel's Feign is interrupted, on top of everything else for as long as the Brute bleeds are active. Even improved raise the spirit - the traited kind - gets interrupted. BTW, no other skill can interrupt a channeled feign outside of a latent poison on a target with no SI. Pretty powerful stuff that doesn't exist freepside and nor should it.
I'll admit that I wasn't aware of warg dots on Flayer actually interrupting inductions. If this is he case, then It should be a viable tactic for creeps, I don't see why they wouldn't want to try it. Though I didn't see that info on the tooltip under flayer at the warg skill vendor.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
...
I actually never said they were "easily pottable." I was correcting Bio by pointing out that plenty were clearable but difficult to remove for the exact reasons you state here. Still, the fact remains plenty of them are in fact pottable on both sides, but with other effects, they're difficult to remove.
I see, Well I guess I misunderstood your first point.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
What changes would make this possible? IMO, the only change worth noting for freeps recently is finally fixing healing RKs so they can bring utility and heals to a group again.
Well you call it fixing healing, but to me RKs were already good healers before. Their two former protection bubbles, now make people Invincible, and since these skills are on a short cooldown, it makes it a lot easier to keep people alive and heal them back up. I feel that is what's broken since the other side doesn't have access to Invincibility.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
And as for LMs, if anything, a LM's ability to control a fight has been greatly reduced over the years. And now with Audacity on top of DR and CC pots, CC - one of their core roles - doesn't exist in the Moors anymore.
The biggest change is Audacity of course. Both sides have access to that.
Yes, their CC role was greatly reduced but they still hold one of the best CC skills in the moors. Everybody that had a mez, root, or stun got hit by this as well, I don't see how that can be considered as a disadvantage if the world around gets nerfed with you.
As for audacity, yeah on the surface it would seem as everybody got the same buff. However, Audacity gave healers more time to react to low green bars. The more time you have to use your spammable healing skills, that easier it is to stay alive. (as long as your heals cannot be easily interrupted)
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
Yeah, in the Moors I think they are difficult to play. Good ones are micro managing support, DPS, and debuffs in the right orders. I see the LM as a pretty involved class to play well in PvMP, particularly since CC just doesn't exist beyond a blip anymore. The operative word being, "well." Luckily for creeps, a large majority of LMs don't play like that and they're easy to kill.
Yes you have a lot of choices, but even the good LMs end up using just a few skills, really it is not rocket science; one doesn't have to go perfectly by the book to effectively kill creeps. As an example, in the first fight of Garny's videos, he forgets to use a lot of skills you would think he should, and still does a lot of damage and protect his group well enough to get the job done.
Here is a little list of what he mostly did in that first fight where non of them died: (I discarded the ones that were trivial to the fight, mostly used when most creeps were dead and the fight was under control)
- Stun-Immunity on Him and RK at all times
- DPS: burning embers (13 times) sticky-gourd (5 times) Light of the rising dawn (5times) staff strike (4 times) march of ents (1 time) lighting strike (1 time)
- Tar (only at the beginning, then he didn't reapply, but it help them early on in the fight so that's why I'm including it).
- Debuffs and cures: SoP Command (5 times), Ancient Craft (2times), cure-wound (2 times)
- Mezz (5 times) which help them interrupt and finish off targets.
And that is just a hand full of all the things LMs have, but at the end, one just have to use those that are the most effective. I'm not saying it's easy, but it not as difficult as people portray it.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
...
Really low. But useful debuffs exist on both sides when paired together. How about a Defiler's flies with 100% uptime, AoE power drain? Add a WL Banner of Terror on top of that and watch what happens to everyone's power. Pretty powerful, right? And yes, this opportunity exists only on creepside as a great tool to break up freepballs - just like Blight is a powerful AoE hotspot with a nasty healing debuff and stacking DoT on exit, also unlimited targets - unlike Windlore or Firelore, which are limited by traits.
It's pretty convenient to ignore all the tools available to both sides when just trying to point fingers and say "imba!!!!" when it fact it's more about what skills people are using and when.
As far as I saw on the first part of the video, 2 captains, and power pots where enough to cancel out banner of terror, and several defiler flies in their group.
As for the defiler skills, yeah they are good, and it's probably one of the few things creeps have left that are still powerful enough to annoy freeps, don't worry I'm sure it will get fixed just like the Fire-Dot, and maybe freeps will get their own version of it on steriods (burning embers) that does more just DoT, and then everybody will be happy I'm sure.
Originally Posted by Gillianrial
Bottom line: we all know there are imbalances in the Moors, but IMO, against a group that is balanced and well played like that, you can't just "focus fire" with random skills. Just like other freep groups that don't have that set-up in terms of classes that are spec'd into specific trait lines, and of course being played well, won't be able to do what is shown in the vid. It's a pretty specific set-up that obviously works.
I don't see blatant broken mechanics in that video. I'm not saying broken mechanics don't exist. There is a difference.
I wasn't in that group so I have no idea the ins and outs of it. I am only commenting on what stood out to me when I watched it - and these things stood out to me pretty quickly.
I agree with some of your points, but I do think there are broken mechanics that come from a lot of the freep skills that have been changed to please their players. All my freep toons (but my hunter I think) have been getting their weaknesses taking away, a their skills improved.
Last edited by Forza; May 09 2012 at 11:13 PM.
Reason: spelling
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
First, Garney and his group are awesome and have been well before the past 6 months. Now since that is said.....
I can pretty much say that among all my characters I have played both sides more than anyone else on landroval. There is a good reason why certain people who play mostly or have played mostly one side won't acknowledge other sides complaints or big issues.
Furthermore, the most glaring cases of blindness goggles, come from those who seem to never, or very seldom, play the side which is at a disadvantage. Hmm, coincidence????? You find certain people on a certain side for a reason. While I won't name any names (there are both freeps and creeps for this), it is pretty plain they want to win and be on the winning side no matter what. There is nothing really wrong with that, until they fill up the boards with holier than thou BS. That is one of the reasons, besides turbine being a bunch of PvP idiots, the PvP in this game has never been good or even remotely balanced among the sides or classes and never will be.
Now back to bickering among yourselves while tooting your own broken horns about how great you are on the winning side <cough> of a game that has had broken PvP and classes since its inception.
Hi, you must be new here so I'll give you a few tips. As a landroval player you are expected to not analyze what's going on. Not in such depth anyway, it's more appropriate to say OP, abuse, ezmode or exploit. Moreover you are expected to QQ in proportion to Niagara falls every time you are outplayed. Most importantly NEVER even think that you could be doing something better. You must be resolute without a doubt that you are the king of whatever class you play and that in every situation you played perfectly. In fact you are an ex-professional korean starcraft player that has taken up lotro as a pastime and always play with 100% of your ability. Most importantly, when someone gives you tips on how to play make sure to tell them where to stick it. Welcome to landroval and enjoy your stay!
@ all those people who say that the creeps were playing well. No you are wrong, in the LC fight, pick a warg, any warg (there are alot of them). Now follow his movement, only him, it doesn't have to be a long time, maybe a minute.
I was astounded by what I saw, there were people who literally got lost, they would walk away from the fight, sit there doing nothing, walk back in and die.
Or they would get in position, maybe get an attack off, realizing that their target had moved the player would move, backpeddal like a boss, then make a wide keyboard swing. Eventually ending up off screen, a few seconds later there they are attacking an NPC.
Wargs are the class with the highest dps on creepside, yet there are like 3 people on this server that can play them.
Well, I do remember people not denying that people in that group were doing a good job. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of comments and how creeps suck and have to learn their class, and then pointing out that that's the reason Garny's group wipes them over and over. Lots of nice things don't you think?
Originally Posted by TheBigMenace
In the first video everyone except for Garny was using Orthanc PVE gear. In the new video most people (particularly Celebraena) had their full PvP set. Nothing else has changed except we now all have -30% incoming damage, and set bonuses that are beneficial to PvP.
The truth was, we could do this way before audacity, back when Dragon and skirm raids were endgame we tried a healing RK + LM + HoH captain. We fought against 12 creeps with only a 3 man group and realized that we might have been on to something.
I thought that RKs had something on their healing changed with one of the recent updates, but If you say they didn't that ok, I believe you.
Originally Posted by TheBigMenace
To be clear, yes we run very dps light, so Garny has to be able to do damage on top of the following: Keep SI on everyone, Clear Silences, Clear Disarms, Disrupt people with a well timed random fast loader, debuff the ranged dps, debuff the melee dps, keep tar down, throw out an occasional heal and on top of all that do big damage.
Not to mention the fact that this game has the most poorly designed induction system I have ever seen. If everyone is focusing an induction class their dps will literally go to zero. Even a simple thing like sending a spider baby on him can nerf his dps by something as silly as 30%.
I analyzed the first part of the video, and He didn't need to keep SI on everybody, again you guys like to portray it as rocket-science, but that's not what happens when you guys fight. I think Garny did a great job, but you guys do like making it look so much more difficult and fancier that what it really was.
Originally Posted by TheBigMenace
As I mentioned before Garny needs to run DPS so he can't trait improved clear. If it isn't traited then it's single target the same with sticky tar, it's got a 1:30 CD because he doesn't have enough trait slots.
Actually all the tooltips you listed are from an AM traited LM, which Garny isn't (and never would be in the moors), Fire/Wind Lore only have 3 targets for him. Actually it looks like you also had 3 KoA traits as well, so obviously you are using some weird support build.
A support traited LM does no damage.
You are right, I agree with what you are saying, but I just posted what I had on my LM, and to show Gillie some of the debuffs LMs have access to. I wasn't really saying that does what Garny uses, wasn't really talking specifically about him that time, but even if I were there is no way for me to know what traits Garny uses. And sure, depending on group make up, I would trait my LM differently.
Last edited by Forza; May 09 2012 at 11:10 PM.
Reason: spelling
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
There will always be those who fail to see, or just ignore the advantages the side they are playing on have. This is just a part of gaming. But anyone that can look at those videos, and cannot see the imbalance between freep and creep side, while at the same time laud the playing skill of those involved is simply wearing blinders. IMO.
You can blame it on those that "do not play their class well," till you are blue in the face. But fact is fact. Ina game that we are all playing and paying for, balance should NEVER weigh too heavily in the favor of one side or the other. Turbine thought creeps would come in hoards, and yet most nights it is the Freeps who come in hoards. They must make skills viable for use in PVE against bosses and mobs there, and yet do little to bring the same advantages to creeps when they face highly geared freeps.
Someone said in a post, "we all want to win." In many ways this is true. But it all depends on your definition of winning. To me a win is any night of great PvP. A night when both sides log out feeling excited about logging in the next night. If only a hand full of players feel this, then the game has failed the players. It is as simple as that and no carping about playing well, or who is or is not solo will change that.
IMO of course.
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
We Pounce Because We Care
[QUOTE=Forza;6159844]Well, I do remember people not denying that people in that group were doing a good job. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of comments and how creeps suck and have to learn their class, and then pointing out that that's the reason Garny's group wipes them over and over. Lots of nice things don't you think?
Watch the wargs man... just watch the wargs.
Originally Posted by Forza
I thought that RKs had something on their healing changed with one of the recent updates, but If you say they didn't that ok, I believe you.
They did, but they had already been implemented in the first video.
Originally Posted by Forza
I analyzed the first part of the video, and He didn't need to keep SI on everybody, again you guys like to portrait it as rocket-science, but that's not what happens when you guys fight. I think Garny did a great job, but you guys do like making it look so much more difficult and fancier that what it really was.
I dunno if it's good to judge this without going out and actually trying to do it yourself.
Hi all, I would just like to clear up some common misconceptions here...
Many people seem to believe that our success is based off of freep imbalance. Other claim it is because of our skill, or the lack of skill demonstrated by our opposition. Others go so far to even claim it is because of exploiting and cheating.
I am here to tell you all the truth. It is neither of these things mentioned above, but rather something else much more inexplicable: the red double swords.
As shown in the screenie of my secret build below, these red double swords shown. Together, with other important elements, they grant dunkmaster status. This status allows you to dunk what they call "n00blords", which are basically just players (good or bad) that get "dunked". These 4 red swords are actually created from yellow double swords. However, over time, the blood of the n00blords that you dunk turns them red, which explains why it has taken so long to finally achieve dunkmaster status.
However, we notice some other things in the screenshot: Equipped in the foot slot are the boots of moving very fast, and equipped in the class slot is wiggles lantern, shown between the doubleswords. The boots of moving very fast are self-explanatory: they allow you to move very fast, which is good for catching up to n00blords to make a successful dunk. The wiggles lantern, combined with the 4 red double swords, allows you to see more and dunk harder. All of these together help contribute to "dunkmaster" status
Since I am aware that very few people are unfamiliar with dunkmaster status, I will be happy to answer some frequently asked questions:
Q: Is it possible to dunk a dunkmaster?
A: It is possible to dunk a dunkmaster, however you must have more double swords than the dunkmaster and they must be red
Q: Where can red double swords be obtained?
A: The evil forest
Q: Are you a dunkmaster? How do I become a dunkmaster?
A:Yes, as shown in my title I am a dunkmaster. Dunkmaster status can be achieved simply by obtaining the following from the evil forest: 4 yellow double swords, the boots of moving very fast, and wiggles lantern.
Q: What if I get dunked? Does that mean that I am a n00blord?
A: Only if you are dunked by a dunkmaster, in which case you would be considered a n00blord.
Actually the only reason I even mentioned it is actually how effective groups you have been in are with casters. Most of the time when grouped I am with only 1 or 2 others, and I don't typically even have a captain with me so I don't even really know if this would be effective with groups like are shown in the video, but generally speaking, flayer bleeds wreak havoc on healers and casters.
Even while under All Fates, RK heals get interrupted and minstrel's Feign is interrupted, on top of everything else for as long as the Brute bleeds are active. Even improved raise the spirit - the traited kind - gets interrupted. BTW, no other skill can interrupt a channeled feign outside of a latent poison on a target with no SI. Pretty powerful stuff that doesn't exist freepside and nor should it.
I would love to have a mixed pack. It would be absolutely devastating in the right paws, and yet the freeps couldn't complain if the Flayer wargs were visible. The problem is, I don't think it would work at all if it was lead like a standard pack. Pounce, maul, scatter on one target wouldn't be the ultimate solution to all problems. It would need to be a bit more like the old FB groups. The wargs have to be able to work independently, choosing their own targets as needed to see the interrupts and CC are applied in the right places at the right time.
Hell, if we were going to keep the Flayer wargs visible, I'd add a defiler and a WL as well. Devastating.
Originally Posted by Forza
I'll admit that I wasn't aware of warg dots on Flayer actually interrupting inductions. If this is he case, then It should be a viable tactic for creeps, I don't see why they wouldn't want to try it. Though I didn't see that info on the tooltip under flayer at the warg skill vendor.
It's not guaranteed, since it comes from the brute bonus on claws (it ticks every 4s for 16s). But yes, interrupting feign death is very amusing.
"I've brushed with death so often, I should start giving him high-fives when I pass..."
"Take that lorebreaker! Behold the wrath of Tolkien!" ~Harumph
Also, consider that Tar and Benediction of the Raven can be applied to an unlimited amount of people, Tar being able to stay active 100% of the time, and Benediction of the raven being easily spammed.
lol @ the tar part regardless of how a LM is traited. Much less the other AM stuff.
Lol, you be funny.
What kind of LM goes AD with Attack speed.
-Hit me up "DefenderofWeak"
COME INTO THE MOORS, AND FEEL THE POUNCE OF BORNTOOWN! Borntown - Champion - 75 r7!!! - *OG* Borntoown - Warg - 75 r7!!!- Pirate Lords - back in action
Jaineybaby - I can say with 100% honesty that a group of wargs mixed stance is just incredibly difficult to run.
It's near impossible to get 4 or 5 to run in Shadow, attack, de-stance to get the non-stanced effects, and coordinate those who DO have Flayer to contribute. Of course, by the time any target has been engaged, all our Shadow wargs have all pounced - complete waste of time.
All a big mess really.
We still try though!
Love & Hugs
Fluffy Hithy
For as often as some warg groups run together, you'd think they'd have figured it out by now.
I remember running with a couple Champs from time to time, just us, and also within a larger group and you know how long it took us to figure these things out? About 1 microsecond. Voice, and an understanding of your traits relative to the other players traits make things pretty easy to use together. Who is applying rend? Who is the primary snarer, timing of horns, engaging, disengaging, burst, etc...communication is key.
Is it more complex with stealth involved? Probably. But come on. Some of these packs seem to have the same core wargs in it night after night after night. I'm sure it could be figured out.
---
As for the continued insistance from Bio about the healing issues, here's my take.
Having personally fought most of the high rank defilers on our server there is ONE key observation I'd like to make. Some are traited in a way that I CANNOT out dps their healing; literally cannot hurt them faster than they can heal themselves. That's with a maxed out 1st age and solid gear, and a reasonably well thought out attack sequence. Some can't even come close to keeping up with my dps. I'm not exactly sure what the difference in spec is, but let me tell you it's MASSIVELY noticable. In fact there are relatively low rank defilers that are FAR more difficult to kill on our server than some of the highest ranked. This isn't to say any players are bad or good, but there are clearly spec choices that are dramatically impacting healing output...something to consider.
Having said that, yes Freeps in general have a better suite of healing skills. BUT by and large their healers are not as tough as creepside healers. AND baseline morale pools are considerably higher on creepside.
--
Honestly, I think fixing reavers and adding to Creepside AoE dps would likely resolve most well run group level dynamics.
But that's just my opinion.../shrug
Second Marshal Luc Brandenbuck ~Battlemaster~
Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe Champion:'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2
Member Online status:
Reputation:
Poster of Note Online status:
COME INTO THE MOORS,
Poster of Note Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
Senior Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Originally Posted by soccercake7
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
The truth: Must read
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
