Thread: Commendations/audacity, a flawed system strangling the moors

As it is now, commendations/audacity is strangling the moors in several ways.


- Commendations are too hard to get compared to the costs of skills/traits etc. This makes it quite impossible for new creeps to join the moors, thus we see very few new recruits.

- Audacity is strangling freep side because freeps now hesitate to bring their character to the moors unless they have audacity. And let's face it, unless you are a dedicated PvP'er, it will take quite some time before you will get your audacity high enough. This stops a lot of freeps from coming to the moors.

- Freep alts. Even if you are a dedicated pvp freep, you cannot bring your alts to the moors for quite some time. This means when you're not having fun on class A, you cannot switch to class B to pwn.

- Veterans returning, only to find their 4-5 years of playing counts for nothing and all their Destiny points are pretty much useless, and they can't get anymore of it. All their previous map deeds count for nothing and they start on scratch like some greenie. It's a huge slap in the face and I know several veterans who's returned only to leave again when they found this out.

- "Part-time players" on both sides. They struggle hard for quite some time until they get audacity.

- Players playing multiple characters on both sides. Needless to say, they will have to prioritise and it will take them many, many months if not a year to get audacity on many chars. A result of this will be that they will have to stick with 1 or 2 characters at a time, making the moors less diverse and possibly boring them.



This needs to be adressed asap, it's a system working to keep players away from PvP. Although rewarding dedicated PvP'ers in itself isn't a bad thing, all this combined is very bad for PvP.

The thread found here has over 50,000 views, over 40 pages of comments from players, but not 1 single response from Turbine. Simply put, Turbine doesn't give a "bleep" about the PVP community.

Turbine refuses to acknowledge that they made a mistake, and they choose to ignore all their customers who complain about the current state of PVP.

Areanet, here we go!

Originally Posted by lutemaster

The thread found here has over 50,000 views, over 40 pages of comments from players, but not 1 single response from Turbine. Simply put, Turbine doesn't give a "bleep" about the PVP community.

Turbine refuses to acknowledge that they made a mistake, and they choose to ignore all their customers who complain about the current state of PVP.

Areanet, here we go!

Just another example of turbine's lack of customer support and feedback.

Talk to us, Kelsan!

Originally Posted by lutemaster

Areanet, here we go!

I agree 100%

The only thing commendations take is time. They are incredibly easy to get. Even on a green creep, once they do quests and get blown up a few times they have enough for a skill then it only gets easier...alting is the only thing that sucks though...I didn't bring out any alts until I got my champ all the armor and then had enough to get six pieces on my minstrel. All I did was focus on the pvp and before I knew it I was getting piece after piece. Took me probably 1.5 months to get fully geared audacity armor for 2 toons including lots okf morale pots and also some skills for my creep...

hmmm 1.5 months for me to gear out my already geared out freep that took me 1,5 months to get a set i already liked.......on top of that i had to spend 1.5 months to get my already pretty god creep him new ad.trait..now when do i get to stop grinding ?? ps im still working on my freep..it has crushed me as a casual player in a massive way..

Originally Posted by aad0italian

The only thing commendations take is time. They are incredibly easy to get. Even on a green creep, once they do quests and get blown up a few times they have enough for a skill then it only gets easier...alting is the only thing that sucks though...I didn't bring out any alts until I got my champ all the armor and then had enough to get six pieces on my minstrel. All I did was focus on the pvp and before I knew it I was getting piece after piece. Took me probably 1.5 months to get fully geared audacity armor for 2 toons including lots okf morale pots and also some skills for my creep...

Easy? I'm a rank 10 warg, still rank 4 audacity. I can't play nonstop, very few ppl can. Ppl have families, jobs, friends, studies, etc. And if I as an experienced creep spend 1 month scraping together 18k comms(+ maybe 20-30% extra that I spent on pots), just imagine how a new creep struggles just to get his most basic skills and traits.

Sure, it's easy and quick for you, but you are a minority in this game. Read my arguments in the initial thread, it's quite a barrier.

Originally Posted by stoffi

Easy? I'm a rank 10 warg, still rank 4 audacity. I can't play nonstop, very few ppl can. Ppl have families, jobs, friends, studies, etc. And if I as an experienced creep spend 1 month scraping together 18k comms(+ maybe 20-30% extra that I spent on pots), just imagine how a new creep struggles just to get his most basic skills and traits.

Sure, it's easy and quick for you, but you are a minority in this game. Read my arguments in the initial thread, it's quite a barrier.

You are a warg, it should be incredibly easy to get renown and commendations from soloing. Also being in a raid for an hour or two will bring in the commendations. I by no means play nonstop either. They are just easy to get.

Originally Posted by aad0italian

You are a warg, it should be incredibly easy to get renown and commendations from soloing. Also being in a raid for an hour or two will bring in the commendations. I by no means play nonstop either. They are just easy to get.

Yet I spent 1 month to get rank 4 audacity, because of time issues. And I might remind you that all players are not rank 10 wargs.

But this isn't about me. I get along fine. It's about all the players that don't think it's fine, as my initial post says.

You just have to realise that for many ppl this is a huge obstacle, even though it seemingly isn't for you. It's statistics, even if only 20% think it's too much, you get 20% less action in the moors.

I'm a raid leader on Evernight, my r10 Defiler, r10 warg and R8 wl 8k from R9 are retired until the situation is sorted. Good luck encouraging pvp with gates and a huge imbalance between the sides!

Originally Posted by stoffi

As it is now, commendations/audacity is strangling the moors in several ways.


- Commendations are too hard to get compared to the costs of skills/traits etc. This makes it quite impossible for new creeps to join the moors, thus we see very few new recruits.

- Audacity is strangling freep side because freeps now hesitate to bring their character to the moors unless they have audacity. And let's face it, unless you are a dedicated PvP'er, it will take quite some time before you will get your audacity high enough. This stops a lot of freeps from coming to the moors.

- Freep alts. Even if you are a dedicated pvp freep, you cannot bring your alts to the moors for quite some time. This means when you're not having fun on class A, you cannot switch to class B to pwn.

- Veterans returning, only to find their 4-5 years of playing counts for nothing and all their Destiny points are pretty much useless, and they can't get anymore of it. All their previous map deeds count for nothing and they start on scratch like some greenie. It's a huge slap in the face and I know several veterans who's returned only to leave again when they found this out.

- "Part-time players" on both sides. They struggle hard for quite some time until they get audacity.

- Players playing multiple characters on both sides. Needless to say, they will have to prioritise and it will take them many, many months if not a year to get audacity on many chars. A result of this will be that they will have to stick with 1 or 2 characters at a time, making the moors less diverse and possibly boring them.



This needs to be adressed asap, it's a system working to keep players away from PvP. Although rewarding dedicated PvP'ers in itself isn't a bad thing, all this combined is very bad for PvP.

Have to say it's rare I fully agree with you Stoff but all your points here are pretty much spot on.
Rather than levelling the playing field, audacity further increases the gap between those who have it and those who don't. And as you said it seriously discourages people from bringing alts.
Why t****** wanted to make yet another gating system, preventing more people from enjoying the "content" of the game to the fullest is beyond me... It completely screws over casuals...

Audacity at its' max rank has mostly improved action and was needed - but the grind for it was not.

Audacity is the Radiance of PvMP. They think it's a great idea but is a complete fail.

I see the problem from a new creep's point of view. Skill costs needs to be significantly lower the first 5-6 ranks. That much is very evident.

That said, I do not see a problem for experienced creeps and freeps in acquiring comms. Does it take time? Yes, but not nearly as much as it's being made out to be. I'm in the moors maybe 4-6 days most weeks, and hardly ever for more than a couple of hours. My captain has 11 or 12 pieces of audacity gear, more morale/fear pots than I'll ever use and I recently just got my RK to 40 and got him 2 pieces just so I'm not wasting comms sitting at the 10k cap. EDIT: Also bought shadow for my warg to test it out.

Complaining about not having time to get comms is about as good of a complaint as complaining that other creeps/freeps were higher rank than you because they had more free time in SoA -> SoM when rank actually meant something to a creep.

People who play more tend to have more gold, more marks, more seals, better gear, more accomplishments and now more comms. That's an MMO for you.

Originally Posted by DreagonMK

People who play more tend to have more gold, more marks, more seals, better gear, more accomplishments and now more comms. That's an MMO for you.

This has to be one of the most sane things i've ever seen on these forums.

Originally Posted by defrule

Audacity is the Radiance of PvMP. They think it's a great idea but is a complete fail.

^^This. I couldn't have put it better.

+rep

both features are horribly implemented and need to be removed since they will never FIX it properly, though I rather they just remove it.

instead of making pointless distractions and 'workarounds' they should remove this and focus on how to properly fix things for Rohan, it is very possible they just don't want to do it.

those saying its easy to get try being a new player rolling a f2p reaver and see how far you get when everything costs 5k+.

I think the best thing to do would just be to remove the commendation costs for creep skills. As for wargs having an easy time at commendations, I love playing alt wargs on other servers but creating a r0 warg you can't even get enhanced stealth before you're at least r2 or r3. A warg without enhanced stealth is chanceless against anything except perhaps a norbog. It's a skill every warg needs but with the commendations, new wargs can't afford it.
I have a r9 warg and I can't even afford the cost of basic skills for my alt defiler due to all commendations being used to get skills for my warg.
Imagine if your freep had to buy every one of your skills for 2-5K commendations before you could use them in PvMP. That's the reality of a new creep. Even traits cost loads of commendations. Audacity is just out of reach for a new creep.

A system where you got the skills once you reached the right rank would be a lot better or even if you could pay gold for the skills.

Thread #6-7 I imagine, same topic. Amount of actual correspondence, the usual.

Originally Posted by invaznoftheazn

Thread #6-7 I imagine, same topic. Amount of actual correspondence, the usual.

No, different thread, different points to be made. Other threads have not been exactly the same as this one. Also, it cannot be said enough.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

The thread found here has over 50,000 views, over 40 pages of comments from players, but not 1 single response from Turbine. Simply put, Turbine doesn't give a "bleep" about the PVP community.

Turbine refuses to acknowledge that they made a mistake, and they choose to ignore all their customers who complain about the current state of PVP.

Areanet, here we go!

Pretty much sums it up, commendations was a good step in a positive direction that they managed to screw up... I don't think Turbine has kinda admitted to a mistake once or twice they never actually came out and said we're sorry this was a bad idea they just keep whatever they did there and just try to tidy it up so it doesn't look like as big of a mess.

Last part of the quote awesome game, great company what more can you ask for?

Originally Posted by Stigger32

^^This. I couldn't have put it better.

+rep

Still waiting on my rep

Originally Posted by Notaforumguy007

Pretty much sums it up, commendations was a good step in a positive direction that they managed to screw up... I don't think Turbine has kinda admitted to a mistake once or twice they never actually came out and said we're sorry this was a bad idea they just keep whatever they did there and just try to tidy it up so it doesn't look like as big of a mess.

Last part of the quote awesome game, great company what more can you ask for?

Thats the point. Turbine has never admitted that they were wrong, until it was too late, and the damage already done. It happend with Radiance, and it will happend with commendations too.

My prediction is that they will in conjunction with the release of Riders of Rohan (where level cap will be increased), realise that commendations was a bad idea and quite possibly remove it all together.

Up until then, I think they will still try to make as many sales from the LOTRO store as possible, since people rather purchase the skills instead of grinding them in-game. So once store sales decline, Turbine will lower the commendation cost, or even give the skills/audacity out for free.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

My prediction is that they will in conjunction with the release of Riders of Rohan (where level cap will be increased), realise that commendations was a bad idea and quite possibly remove it all together.

Commendations was/is a great idea, the way in which it was implemented was terrible.

Audacity is just the new version of Radiance. And since Turbine doesn't care about PvP in this game, they decided to make the PvPers go through what the PvEers hated for so long until they got rid of it.

If Turbine actually wanted to 'slow down combat in the Ettenmoors' they would have just given everyone a passive skill, like Audacity is now, but without the grind mechanic.

I don't really have a problem with Commendations outside of grinding them for Audacity (and the ridiculous prices of creep skills and traits). Being able to get all your pots from PvPing is a good change, but players that like to play multiple classes are just as screwed like raiders were when we had Radiance.

Originally Posted by stoffi

No, different thread, different points to be made. Other threads have not been exactly the same as this one. Also, it cannot be said enough.

The one single point noone else has addressed that you've mentioned in the OP is freep Alts actually having a challenge (oh boy) and that is about as non-issue as you can get regarding pvp today

Originally Posted by invaznoftheazn

The one single point noone else has addressed that you've mentioned in the OP is freep Alts actually having a challenge (oh boy) and that is about as non-issue as you can get regarding pvp today

The other threads I saw were terrible, having one short sentence in the starting post. The discussion came below, but the starting post is VITAL for a good debate. This has what the others lacked.

Vote me as PvP dev, and I shall get rid of commendation costs from all audacity items. Make them 100% free.

I will then make ideal (meaning not trash stats) incentivized pvp jewellery/misc items for freeps (which WILL cost commendations as a counter-grind to creep skill/traits costs ect, speaking of which, will be lowered) in a similar fashion.
Which will be similarly necessary to wear like audacity, but maintaining a form of customisability.

Under these changes, the only control mechanism for freeps we won't have for PvP is then LI's and traits.
I would then, using the MP buff, normalise the damage and healing outputs of all LI's to balanced levels.
So it wouldn't matter if you had a third age or a first age you earnt in a raid or got from a mob in PvE, you are then playing a more balanced and easy to control system.

This would allow for the PvP only players to skip the unnecesary grinds, and just get into the grind of PvP itself, which would be eventually broadened in a more fun and highlighting fashion for more than one playstyle.

And this is why I should be your PvP dev.

Thank you very much. ./bow

Originally Posted by lutemaster

The thread found here has over 50,000 views, over 40 pages of comments from players, but not 1 single response from Turbine. Simply put, Turbine doesn't give a "bleep" about the PVP community.

Turbine refuses to acknowledge that they made a mistake, and they choose to ignore all their customers who complain about the current state of PVP.

Areanet, here we go!

Yep. Meanwhile, ANet reps are fighting and dying alongside players. Not to mention accepting group invites to spend time talking and explaining things to them.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Vote me as PvP dev, and I shall get rid of commendation costs from all audacity items. Make them 100% free.

I vote for you, 100%!
You have more common sense than some of the current developers @ Turbine.

Recently thought about starting PvMP. I'm F2P and was using a Reaver which I understand is a bit underpowered. If it seemed fun I'd have paid TP for another class.

I was earning about 200 comms per hr. Most likely that is low (no maps, no knowledge of the area) but since I was starting out it is what it is. When I saw the cost of buying just one skill let alone the cost of a rank of audacity I pretty quickly gave up the thought of PvMP.

Once they adjust the prices I'll likely jump back in but unless the entry fee lessens I just can't justify the time.

Originally Posted by Emachine

Recently thought about starting PvMP. I'm F2P and was using a Reaver which I understand is a bit underpowered. If it seemed fun I'd have paid TP for another class.

I was earning about 200 comms per hr. Most likely that is low (no maps, no knowledge of the area) but since I was starting out it is what it is. When I saw the cost of buying just one skill let alone the cost of a rank of audacity I pretty quickly gave up the thought of PvMP.

Once they adjust the prices I'll likely jump back in but unless the entry fee lessens I just can't justify the time.

This sums things up for me as well. I bought a Warg as I thought the Moors were great, but now it is shelved as I can't survive there with the #### skills I have and just can't face the grind to improve them and no-way am I buying while the game is in such a poor state!

Stoff, I agree with you about 5% of the time, but you're spot on with this one. The issue is not a creep vs freep argument. Its not a balance issue. The problem goes to the core of PvP.


Anyone remember the dev who played a key part in this change?


Hint: it wasn't Kelsan.



yep, Zombie Columbus, the same dev who is in charge of hunters. I think the two (audacity/commendations and hunters) are pretty similar in attention paid and functionality in general. Anyone with a warg who's come across a solo hunter knows exactly what I mean.

I love comms, sorry.

Originally Posted by DaveChappelle

I love comms, sorry.

Heard dat!

I dislike audacity. It is way to powerful for something that takes quite a lot of time to acquire (for most of us). If a r12 freep comes back and starts playing the game again does it really make sense that they have to grind PvP again to get audacity? I don't think so.

As for commendations I think the earning system isn't to bad. Then again I haven't tried an alt or a new creep. From the look of it this will need to be addressed somehow.

Something needs to be put in to make new creeps earn comms quick and easy. I think they should be able to get enough for the first 4 or so ranks without to much grinding. I think it would be nice if they put in some new (one time) quests with large commendation rewards. Every time you roll a new creep you could do these quests 1 time. This would also make it easier for freeps to farm because you could farm all this out then delete the creep if you wanted.

My BIGGEST issue with all of this is how they screwed over all of us who have been playing for years. I don't understand why they made DP useless. It was a good system and as far as I'm concerned needed no change. It makes me feel like they are doing this to say they updated PvP. Looks like we are going down the same road here as with PvE...start adding grinding content rather then actual updates.

My BIGGEST issue (part 2) is that they didn't give those of us with already ranked toons something out of this. What about all the deeds/maps I've done that I can't redo? As far as I'm concerened we should have started with 10k commendations. I'm sure they could have come up with a system to distribute those based off ranked toons. (ex. each R7=2.5k comms. Each rank after 7 adds 500 more. Then just cap it as 10k....simple enough).

I also think the cap should be removed. Honestly what do you people with one character do once you have all your gear and such...hit the cap and waste the comms?

Yea they screwed this up big.

Originally Posted by Slin6

I dislike audacity. It is way to powerful for something that takes quite a lot of time to acquire (for most of us). If a r12 freep comes back and starts playing the game again does it really make sense that they have to grind PvP again to get audacity? I don't think so.

As for commendations I think the earning system isn't to bad. Then again I haven't tried an alt or a new creep. From the look of it this will need to be addressed somehow.

Something needs to be put in to make new creeps earn comms quick and easy. I think they should be able to get enough for the first 4 or so ranks without to much grinding. I think it would be nice if they put in some new (one time) quests with large commendation rewards. Every time you roll a new creep you could do these quests 1 time. This would also make it easier for freeps to farm because you could farm all this out then delete the creep if you wanted.

My BIGGEST issue with all of this is how they screwed over all of us who have been playing for years. I don't understand why they made DP useless. It was a good system and as far as I'm concerned needed no change. It makes me feel like they are doing this to say they updated PvP. Looks like we are going down the same road here as with PvE...start adding grinding content rather then actual updates.

My BIGGEST issue (part 2) is that they didn't give those of us with already ranked toons something out of this. What about all the deeds/maps I've done that I can't redo? As far as I'm concerened we should have started with 10k commendations. I'm sure they could have come up with a system to distribute those based off ranked toons. (ex. each R7=2.5k comms. Each rank after 7 adds 500 more. Then just cap it as 10k....simple enough).

I also think the cap should be removed. Honestly what do you people with one character do once you have all your gear and such...hit the cap and waste the comms?

Yea they screwed this up big.

A fully mapped out r6 creep will have acquired 30k+ comms, aside from the stupid prices of skins, how much do they need?

Originally Posted by Daec

A fully mapped out r6 creep will have acquired 30k+ comms, aside from the stupid prices of skins, how much do they need?

8-10 skills x 2000 commendations each = 16k to 20k comms (I think this varies by class a bit)
6 corruptions x 1000 = 6k comms
2 racial traits x 1500 = 3k comms
7 class traits x 1500 = 10.5k comms
6 advanced passives x 500 = 3k comms

So before touching audacity (6k each), brands (5k each, in case you want to upgrade between ranks), skins (7.5k each) or purchasing delving consumables, a r6 creep would need ~38-43k commendations. And that leaves no choice between what traits to use (and won't allow MfP2, DfP2 and the like, since you need rank1 of those corruptions first).

Infamy to reach r7 is 37500. If commendations are earned at half the rate to infamy, a regular creep could afford about half of this by the end of rank6 without map deeds (37500/2 = 18750 comms + 5 maps x (500+1000+1500) = 33.75k comms?). So that's how Audacity/Commendations removes the need to pve from ettenmoors?

Getting full audacity is another 36k commendations, which is far out of reach at these ranks (And probably a terrible idea for casual players anyway due to the seasons mechanic), and running around with default skin, at least to me, feels rather.. humiliating?

Originally Posted by Slin6

I dislike audacity. It is way to powerful for something that takes quite a lot of time to acquire (for most of us). If a r12 freep comes back and starts playing the game again does it really make sense that they have to grind PvP again to get audacity? I don't think so.

As for commendations I think the earning system isn't to bad. Then again I haven't tried an alt or a new creep. From the look of it this will need to be addressed somehow.

Something needs to be put in to make new creeps earn comms quick and easy. I think they should be able to get enough for the first 4 or so ranks without to much grinding. I think it would be nice if they put in some new (one time) quests with large commendation rewards. Every time you roll a new creep you could do these quests 1 time. This would also make it easier for freeps to farm because you could farm all this out then delete the creep if you wanted.

My BIGGEST issue with all of this is how they screwed over all of us who have been playing for years. I don't understand why they made DP useless. It was a good system and as far as I'm concerned needed no change. It makes me feel like they are doing this to say they updated PvP. Looks like we are going down the same road here as with PvE...start adding grinding content rather then actual updates.

My BIGGEST issue (part 2) is that they didn't give those of us with already ranked toons something out of this. What about all the deeds/maps I've done that I can't redo? As far as I'm concerened we should have started with 10k commendations. I'm sure they could have come up with a system to distribute those based off ranked toons. (ex. each R7=2.5k comms. Each rank after 7 adds 500 more. Then just cap it as 10k....simple enough).

I also think the cap should be removed. Honestly what do you people with one character do once you have all your gear and such...hit the cap and waste the comms?

Yea they screwed this up big.

I have four fully mapped creeps on another server I used to play on. the opportunites to earn comms there are greatly decreased. I was tempted to join some friends again on that server. Logged in to about 600 comms (from delving stones in my bags). Nope, not dealing with that grind.

This system is so horribly broken its not even funny. Turning the moors into <primarily> a pve zone makes my creeps cry huge orc tears.

Originally Posted by TizianEnel

8-10 skills x 2000 commendations each = 16k to 20k comms (I think this varies by class a bit)
6 corruptions x 1000 = 6k comms
2 racial traits x 1500 = 3k comms
7 class traits x 1500 = 10.5k comms
6 advanced passives x 500 = 3k comms

So before touching audacity (6k each), brands (5k each, in case you want to upgrade between ranks), skins (7.5k each) or purchasing delving consumables, a r6 creep would need ~38-43k commendations. And that leaves no choice between what traits to use (and won't allow MfP2, DfP2 and the like, since you need rank1 of those corruptions first).

Infamy to reach r7 is 37500. If commendations are earned at half the rate to infamy, a regular creep could afford about half of this by the end of rank6 without map deeds (37500/2 = 18750 comms + 5 maps x (500+1000+1500) = 33.75k comms?). So that's how Audacity/Commendations removes the need to pve from ettenmoors?

Getting full audacity is another 36k commendations, which is far out of reach at these ranks (And probably a terrible idea for casual players anyway due to the seasons mechanic), and running around with default skin, at least to me, feels rather.. humiliating?

This is the problem for new players. And not to mention they got no chance without these skills and traits, making them mere punching bags until they get it. For a new creep, rank 7 is pretty damn far away and we've had several players post on the forums telling us how they just gave up. One guy went creep with 3 freep mates, all had creeps at rank 4 creeps from before. They could barely kill anything, the 4 of them together, no audacity, few skills, op freep classes, they gave up.


Sable, a poster above this post, is another good example. He is definitively not alone, I know several veterans just like him, they came back only to discover they have to grind forever to be able to play properly. Their map deeds are all done and getting audacity becomes and obstacle they won't overcome, feeling they had already earned a right to play by having several nicely ranked creeps already.

Comms are severely flawed.

YAWN - Commendations are one of the few things turbine has got about right on the moors!
There are far more important issues to balance first, such as the class imbalances.
But keep trolling anyways.