Thread: U7 Guardian Update Notes

Guardian -













Really Devs, you could think of nothing that Guardians needed or fixed, really?

It is so sad that it is funny.

Have to say, it's been a while since I've seen someone complain that there's nothing to complain about.^^

On topic, my guardian's fine, so I'm glad they took care of other things.

Well, as you probably now, this hasn't changed a bit:

Its like there is a small paid army of people ready and waiting (pics and all) to respond with the same "Guardians are fine" mantra, as if that should somehow justify no changes.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Its like there is a small paid army of people ready and waiting (pics and all) to respond with the same "Guardians are fine" mantra, as if that should somehow justify no changes.

If you are talking about me, I was being sarcastic.

But regarding having no changes, was anyone really surprised? All changes we get are more like teases than anything... the block event on Ignore the Pain, and the amazing 50 rating buff on GT, to mention some of them. I enjoyed my guard a lot, but the updates (or lack of them) killed the class and pretty much the game for me.

Originally Posted by CrusaderOfMetal

If you are talking about me, I was being sarcastic.

But regarding having no changes, was anyone really surprised? All changes we get are more like teases than anything... the block event on Ignore the Pain, and the amazing 50 rating buff on GT, to mention some of them. I enjoyed my guard a lot, but the updates (or lack of them) killed the class and pretty much the game for me.

+1

and Guards need attention

Op and Dmg: Lets be honest champs in glory want tanking updates so bad why we cant have dps update ??

Parry stance do something with it coz its joke

Cab-scale


thos e3 things need to be fixed for sure

Originally Posted by Evendale

Its like there is a small paid army of people ready and waiting (pics and all) to respond with the same "Guardians are fine" mantra, as if that should somehow justify no changes.

You're right, we're busted. We're paid to respond to these posts. Thousands of us. A small army, exactly right. All...let's see, there's the OP, then me, then one more...all two of us. And one was sort of agreeing about the lack of changes to the class compared to others. It's like there's a small paid army of people ready and waiting to complain about anything done or not done in every update.

And my whole point was that if it ain't broke I don't personally want it fixed, and you're welcome to feel otherwise. Nothing changed? Cool, I'll keep going as I have been. Something changed? Cool, I'll keep going and see what I need to adjust. Different outlooks for different players. Relax and enjoy the game, I'm sure they'll change something sometime.

Originally Posted by Jatayu

Guardian -













Really Devs, you could think of nothing that Guardians needed or fixed, really?

It is so sad that it is funny.

"Thanks for adding Reputation to this user."

I for one could add a half dozen or more changes to guard class...yea i saw the new update good thing i got a warden climbing up

Originally Posted by CrusaderOfMetal

Well, as you probably now, this hasn't changed a bit:

Wait.... Have you seen something we haven't?
Hunters were last updated in update 2... I don't think that qualifies as having "Devs' attention"
Unless you count RoI updates, in which case Hunters got about the same, or a little less attention then the guardian.
A LOT less attention if you include the mechanic changes that really screwed over medium classes survivability (between the mitigation hit and the finesse bat to avoidance's)
For crying out loud, my guard went to 75 in moria quest gear, my hunter was scrounging for any extra gear possible just to complete some of the on-level Dunland quests.

That said, I cannot really think of anything that will make the guard THAT much better in the primary role, that of tanking.
We don't really have survivability issues, threat is not a huge problem (Usually... I do have trouble keeping a solid hold off one champ in my kin, but of course with capped crit, 30k mastery, blade brother, and then he traits 1-2 threat traits... Meh, that's why we have engage. Now to get him to practice that whole "Ebb" thing, maybe even enough to get the deed done for it?)
Yes, the Guard could use a bit more OP DPS, but I really don't know how much bonus that is going to give for most guards. A guard is already not half bad at DPS in most instances (excepting obvious issues like a tank-geared GRD in a raid as DPS).

Hunters on the other hand... some definite issues arise with hunters... Some simple bug-fixes, some stuff that needs updated after RoI, Two major issues with threat and survivability! I usually run with a pretty decent tank on my hunter, but good lord some tanks are bad! When I am being lazy and doing 600-800 DPS and still pull on my hunter? I understand that Hunters should not be able to really tank anything, but with no real threat drop or emergency skill survival skill? (except for the "desperate flight to bug the instance") Don't even get me started on mobs that do aggro-breaking stuns, like RoF boss 1. A boss that can devastate 6k on a mitigation-capped guard... and as soon as the guard is stunned it goes for the hunter? And who scripted this?

first this is a guard thread please use hunter thread... 1 cab never scaled also that CD is silly and stops whole block chain..try tanking in pvp pfft lol.. youll get kited to death and even WLs out heal you..heck even my warg out heals my guard now..also unless you got drag set warriors haert also needs to be scaled..finisse cuts pledge nicely..heck thats justa tiny bit of changes..

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

first this is a guard thread please use hunter thread... 1 cab never scaled also that CD is silly and stops whole block chain..try tanking in pvp pfft lol.. youll get kited to death and even WLs out heal you..heck even my warg out heals my guard now..also unless you got drag set warriors haert also needs to be scaled..finisse cuts pledge nicely..heck thats justa tiny bit of changes..

Lol really? You want to sit there and sound ignorant just because his signature says a 75 hunter? Strikerin has a 75 guard and a 75 hunter. He has run the end game content on both, and has done it pretty well. You could see that he has both had you bothered looking at his profile. Granted he can improve on some things in the guard area, but never-the-less his critique is spot on. Guards need little attention, I know the small amount of attention drives the class to become stale which is why I said screw my guard for now and leveled up my warden. But as far as changes go, the only thing a guard could maybe use is an improvement to their overpower dps, but I know of a guard that when running in the proper gear can dish out amazing damage in overpower. Their catch a breath doesn't need much scaling, if any. I can run in on my guard and never have any power issues and I've tanked ToO runs with him. And guards are not supposed to be self-healing classes, they run out there and absorb the damage. It's what they do better than any class in the game. They can take the most damage and keep on fighting, where a warden needs those self-heals to keep himself up. Tanking in PvP is very boring on a guard, which is why you should run overpower when going out there or be prepared to be a pocket protector. This is another thing Strikerin has done on both of his 75's.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

Wait.... Have you seen something we haven't?
Hunters were last updated in update 2... I don't think that qualifies as having "Devs' attention"

The last "month of" or class specific revamp for guardian was b12. Around the time hunters we updated was supposed to be a full set of revamps, they screwed up their timing and did every class but guardian, warden, and champ. RoI revamped those classes and doubled up on quite a few others. Guardians were not touched.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

Unless you count RoI updates, in which case Hunters got about the same, or a little less attention then the guardian.

Guardians got WR changed so you can choose between it and retaliation.
Guardians got a small tactical mitigation buff for GW.
Guardians got improved challenge which slows your target if they hit you and then stop hitting you (AKA useless for PvE avoidable for PvP).
Guardians got improved overwhelm a whole 600 reduction to B/P/E.
Guardians got improved Guardian's defence which has nothing more than that useless slow on it.
And finally guardians got improved TtT, hands down the most pathetic improvement to a skill I've ever seen as they FIXED a broken skill and called it improved.

Yeah... one useful improvement (WR) and it's one that should have been there from the beginning of the game

Compared to hunters...

Hunters got improved focus closing in on the most OP skill for landscape and PvP.
Hunters got improved PS removed the CD not sure if you noticed but that's a lot of damage especially when combined with improved focus for 4-5+ PS with that buff still up.
Hunters got improved SotE for a basically passive heal (you don't use that skill for the heal so it's just a bonus).
Hunters got improved scourging blow to remove the induction on your BA.
Hunters got improved QS for more of that sweet, sweet focus.


I didn't even bother buying my guardians "improved" skills until I was lvl75 while I was taking my hunter back to the trainer every time a new skill opened.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

A LOT less attention if you include the mechanic changes that really screwed over medium classes survivability (between the mitigation hit and the finesse bat to avoidance's)

Game wide changes like that don't justify leaving a single class out of the revamps completely.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

For crying out loud, my guard went to 75 in moria quest gear, my hunter was scrounging for any extra gear possible just to complete some of the on-level Dunland quests.

Player issue.

No offence, but I ran BG/VM gear all the way to lvl75 and I had one issue and that was on a platform near the tower when the uruk was hitting me for 1.3k (IIRC) still didn't die though and it was still faster than with all my other classes.

Originally Posted by Jatayu

Guardian -

I actually went and read the patch notes, and no we didn't even get a title. One can dream

For Guardians that are not familiar with the Warden class.. in Update 7 Wardens will have their Defiant Challenge cooldown reduced to 210 seconds, allowing them to reduce that down to 120 seconds when traited max legacy.

Now Guardian's Pledge is pretty cool as it adds +50% BPE, but Finesse does eat away at that quite a bit. Also, tactical damage I believe only has a chance to be evaded? Ranged attacks can only be blocked (if you have a shield equipped, ie; not in overpower) and evaded. And if you're stunned then you can't BPE anyway so you're having to mitigate all the damage anyway. With a legacy you can reduce Pledge down to 4 minutes, less if you have the Othanc tanking set with Pledge. Keep in mind the duration of 15 seconds for the next paragraph...

Compare this to Defiant Challege on a 2 minute cooldown that allows a capped Warden to achieve 90% mitigations for 30 seconds, all on a 2 minute cooldown. I'll take that over Pledge any day. Add on some self-avoidances and self or group heals, never surrender, and your survivability is through the roof. Let's not forget that out-of-combat gambits that can be done prior to a battle. Aggression is also getting an update, so combined with EoB w/ TV.. wow... Wardens are looking more and more like the perfect tank from God.

I would love to finish this off with reiterating what Evandale made light of, that we didn't even get a single word mention of us in the BR-U7 Release Notes.

I wouldnt be complaining too much over no changes/upgrades....The Guardian could end up like the Warden being so changed the only thing recognized is the name of the class and use of a javelin. The best update I'd love to see as a FORMER warden is having Orion no longer a dev. He's killed the warden. Its like he's trying patch up the Hoover Dam with bubble gum...

Originally Posted by thatabguy

Also, tactical damage I believe only has a chance to be evaded?

It's my understanding that tactical damage (referring to damage source) can only be resisted and BPE never factors in.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

For Guardians that are not familiar with the Warden class.. in Update 7 Wardens will have their Defiant Challenge cooldown reduced to 210 seconds, allowing them to reduce that down to 120 seconds when traited max legacy.

Now Guardian's Pledge is pretty cool as it adds +50% BPE, but Finesse does eat away at that quite a bit. Also, tactical damage I believe only has a chance to be evaded? Ranged attacks can only be blocked (if you have a shield equipped, ie; not in overpower) and evaded. And if you're stunned then you can't BPE anyway so you're having to mitigate all the damage anyway. With a legacy you can reduce Pledge down to 4 minutes, less if you have the Othanc tanking set with Pledge. Keep in mind the duration of 15 seconds for the next paragraph...

Compare this to Defiant Challege on a 2 minute cooldown that allows a capped Warden to achieve 90% mitigations for 30 seconds, all on a 2 minute cooldown. I'll take that over Pledge any day. Add on some self-avoidances and self or group heals, never surrender, and your survivability is through the roof. Let's not forget that out-of-combat gambits that can be done prior to a battle. Aggression is also getting an update, so combined with EoB w/ TV.. wow... Wardens are looking more and more like the perfect tank from God.

So U can B/P/E every single phisical attack (including ranged)
U can resist Tactical attacks, and debuffs (also debuff component of some phisical attacks),

tactical attacks cant avided (with B/P/E)-> this is why wardens have the greatest problem of the class whne tanking bukot - no B/P/E = irritating low defense

our defense builds from b/P/E primarly so we have a mitigation survival, guards defense builds on mitigation, so they have a B/P/E survival in most situations mitigation tanking is easyer.. no damage spikes, and no killing stuns.

also as guards wardens cant build on survival skills, it is good for beginner for too t2 trash pulls , this gives us some time for building dfense (we havent that passively)

Your +50,+50,+50% B/P/E buff redus guards incoming damage with -50%-25%-12,5%, that is quite decent 87,5%. finesse is bugged or something but it isnt cuting more B/P/E than 10% or near that, as i tested in duel with my hunter frend.

Your only problem can be the lower aggro but u have time for aggro, we must on that time build defense and keeping aggro on targets , that makes us veery squishí at begin of fight, and hard to balace good between aggro and defens..so good warden never makes an aggro making race with any other tank, he just building more threat than dps, and in spare time build as much defense as possible.

Perhaps I should word this a little bit differently...

How many "good" Wardens actually need Defiant Challenge on a 2 minute cooldown? Since the duration is 30 seconds you can effectively have Defiant Challenge up every 1m 30s (2m minus 30s). A good Warden is already going to be built towards an Avoidance build, but then you also have your out-of-combat gambits that can be done before a battle even begins to assist with self heals and buffs.

Here's what I see...

Most groups refuse to wait for a Warden to do their self heals and buffs with their out-of-combat gambits so the devs are trying to make it easier for Wardens to survive having aggro when all they can do is focus on aggro. That's the team's fault for not waiting, not the class of the Warden. So now the Warden can hit DC and for 30 seconds he can do all his big aggro gambits followed by some self heals and buffs. Then DC wears off and all the Warden has to do is wait a very short 1m 30s until their next DC.

The stuff that I have seen *some* (and I say some, as in really good) Wardens do with *minimal* heals from the group just blows my mind.

I realize that playing a Warden is not easy, and that I agree that a Warden is much more difficult to play than a Guardian.. it's just for the really good Wardens it feels as though some of these changes are turning Wardens into EZ-Mode / God-Mode for survivability. I think that is a side effect to the much agreed consensus that the average Warden is typically not very good and that most groups would, at least in the past, invite a Guard over a Warden. That at least is changing, but only because the changes are making Wardens significantly more survivable so that they can focus on their job of tanking. Hmmm... I don't know what I'm getting at... I guess my feeling or opinion is that if Wardens weren't so squishy when taking damage strictly based off of their mitigations then there wouldn't be a need to make certain gambits or skill (DC) as powerful. Something else other people may not know is that the difference between 50% and 70% mitigations is actually greater than 20%. Okay, I know that doesn't make any sense at all, lol. Anyway, I remember reading something that even though the obvious difference is 20% that the Warden actually takes more than 20% damage than the Guardian, hence the squishy statement earlier. I'd rather see Warden mitigations slightly increased, maybe 60% cap so that certain gambits or skill (DC) don't have to be as powerful. Or make DC multiplicative (effective 70% mitigation) rather than additive (effective 90% mitigation).

Originally Posted by thatabguy

Something else other people may not know is that the difference between 50% and 70% mitigations is actually greater than 20%. Okay, I know that doesn't make any sense at all, lol.

If a guard takes 3000 damage a warden would have taken 5000 damage. ie. 66% more.

Originally Posted by GoldSight

If a guard takes 3000 damage a warden would have taken 5000 damage. ie. 66% more.

QFT.

message too short blabla

Originally Posted by GoldSight

If a guard takes 3000 damage a warden would have taken 5000 damage. ie. 66% more.

Ah yes, now I remember. Thank-you very much for the explanation.

With more numbers to elaborate...

10000 damage * (100 - 50)% = 5000 damage
10000 damage * (100 - 70)% = 3000 damage

5000 - 3000 = 2000 difference

2000 / 3000 = 66.67% difference

So a capped Warden takes 67% more damage than a capped Guardian.
Whereas perhaps if you were a bit naive like I was in the past you might say that the Warden is only taking 20% more damage.

I am aware of the large argument that Wardens are avoidance and not mitigation tanks. So maybe instead of my earlier statement of increase their mitigations to something such as 60%, perhaps giving Wardens a passive critical defence rating bonus would completely solve the issue since I believe that most Wardens suffer from spike damage. Of course a Warden could slot critical defence relics to help with this, but I'm also a big fan of the partial mitigation relics as well.

Anyway, I apologize for going off topic with this thread.

Originally Posted by thatabguy

perhaps giving Wardens a passive critical defence rating bonus would completely solve the issue since I believe that most Wardens suffer from spike damage.

Or perhaps they already did give Wardens a tonne of crit def bonuses/immunity stuff.