Thread: Star lit Crystal Discussion

Based on some of the initial concerns expressed about the new Star Lit Crystals, we'd like to remind everyone of our comments last January regarding the LOTRO Store, new items, and trying new things.

Star lit crystals will be available in game through very clearly stated methods. At some point (and we remind everyone that Bullroarer is a test server and things are always subject to change so this may be sooner or later, or it may be much later or much sooner (more soon?)), store equivalent items will also be introduced. We understand that this will once again lead to the question of convenience vs advantage. So, we'll simply repeat what we have said before. In fact, let me quote myself from that thread...

Originally Posted by Sapience

Patience Said, "convenience, not advantage."
Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

We look forward to hearing your feedback on these items once you've had an opportunity to acquire and test them during the Bullroarer test period.

I hope we get a dev diary for this feature.

I don't care much for the store/p2w side of the debate, but I'm really interested to know why this feature is deemed necessary in the first place. Already players have lots of valid complaints revolving around the disposability of LIs and the grind involved in getting the base symbols, the legacies, the empowerment scrolls, the relics, and having to restart all over at every upgrade from 3rd to 2nd to 1st age, and at every level up and level cap raise. This crystal thing doesn't address any of those issues, but instead add yet another layer of grind to all of those.

Are these items available on BR via NPC, or is it a case you will have to obtain them via an Instance drop?

+Sapience, I came out hard and fast with my comments because before it goes live is the best time to make the most impact. These items 'power up' legendary items. You've called them 'very rare'. We also have new shiny store buttons in our Legendary item panel.

I don't have any problem with clear convenience. But where is the line drawn? I wrote some pretty well-rounded posts about selling end-game armor you may recall and why it might not be a bad thing. Provided it held the same deed requirements. My objection is to something with no clear guaranteed means of acquisition which enhances items permanently massively, being placed into the store as the only feasible way of acquisition.

As for what the items do? I take the patch note at its word. They enhance DPS. That's a major thing. If 3 of them effectively change the DPS on a 3A into that of a 2A, do the same to a 2A (making the DPS a FA), and they're sold in the LotrO store how is that not the equivalent of selling FAs (end-game loot) in the store? . No, we dont sell the FA, we sell you an item that makes your item ALMOST a first age.

If you want to address my fears that it'll be in the store before its readily acquirable place it on a vendor for some marks and medallions, or medallions and seals

Originally Posted by Neen_Eldar

Are these items available on BR via NPC, or is it a case you will have to obtain them via an Instance drop?

They're drops. THere's a full description of what they do and where you can find them in the Bullroarer release notes.

What is the clearly stated method to acquire them?

Since I guess there will be a random factor involved, will the probability be practical? In the past we have seen statistics on the forum that indicate that for some items the in-game drop probabilities are too low to count to count as an alternative to the store.

Sorry Sapience, but the phrase 'Convenience, not Advantage' doesn't hold any weight with people, especially after you introduced store bought armor, etc.

Also, ever considered taking out traveling rations from the store? I mean, just how desperate are you guys when items show up like that? It really shows. That may be 'convenience', but not for that cost.

By the way, fix hunters.

Originally Posted by Sapience

They're drops. THere's a full description of what they do and where you can find them in the Bullroarer release notes.

I have read the notes, but for testing & input purposes would it not make sense to have this item sold at a vendor so people are able to make up their own mind about it.
It seems a big ask to add a new item such as this, then ask people to grind instances on a test server for a rare drop so they can have a play & give their feedback.

The responses you will receive will be unbelievably limited.

Originally Posted by Darmokk

What is the clearly stated method to acquire them?

Skirmish LTs increasing chance in group size

So what lore basis are you guys using for these star-lit crystals? I've never heard of anything like this The Lord of the Rings. Where did these things come from? Where do they get their power from?

Originally Posted by Sapience

They're drops. THere's a full description of what they do and where you can find them in the Bullroarer release notes.

Would it be possible for you to track down the person who developed them and ask that person to provide exact numbers regarding the effect that 1, 2, and 3 Crystals will have on a Legendary Item (DPS, Outgoing Healing, Shield Use; effect on ratings legacies; effect a flat rate or percentage increase; effect change dependent on Age of LI)?

Or, at the very least, have the next BR build include them on a barter vendor in the E&G Tavern?

Given that the very Bullroarer Release notes that you are referencing say that the drop rate is "extremely rare" for those running a solo skirmish, and that the probability increases the larger the group size of the encounter we're doing, you're essentially asking us to either run countless solo skirmishes or track down 2-11 other people for an (unknown) increased chance to even be able to test the items. Since we have no idea what the actual expected drop rates are we can't adequately test those, and if you're really expecting people to spend their own time grinding instances for a, and I quote again, "extremely rare" drop so that we can provide feedback on the item, I don't know what to say.

Or, in shorter terms:

There's a vague description of what they do and a general description of where you might find them - if you're lucky - in the Bullroarer Release Notes.

Or put another way, in a pointless and probably slightly off analogy, but I'm bored so here goes:

My jellybean company is releasing a new green jellybean. I'll be sending you a jar of one million jellybeans which has a small chance to contain one or more green jellybeans, although it may contain no green jellybeans. I'll give you a week or two to sift through the jar at your leisure, and I look forward to your feedback regarding how this new green jellybean tastes. Don't come crying to me later if you find out after the green jellybean gets added to our regular jellybean containers that you don't like the taste of it, because you had your chance to tell me that when I sent you the jar of one million jellybeans.

Originally Posted by Thorsvin

So what lore basis are you guys using for these star-lit crystals? I've never heard of anything like this The Lord of the Rings. Where did these things come from? Where do they get their power from?

The Silmarillion. Although that was extremely rare. Presumably these crystals are a lesser version of that crystal, which Feanur (I think?) infused with the light of a star. The idea that thousands of these crystals are scattered around seems a stretch, but I think that's where they get the idea.

Originally Posted by Sapience

...when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience.

Time is not the issue. I can be in the game five minutes and get a Star Lit Crystal. Granted, the possibility of that happening is probably close to nil, but I'm just making a point. But, on the other side of the coin, I have been playing the game for five years, sometimes 10+ hours a week, and have had - maybe - one "extremely rare" item drop that I can remember. And, it was a level 4 or 5 tome, which would require me to either wait for the first 1 - 4 level tomes to drop or buy them in the store so I an use the 5th one.

Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

I would consider upgrading "the DPS, tactical healing rating, tactical damage rating or shield use rank of your Legendary items" an advantage by making it purchasable in the store. But, I guess due to the item "transitively" being available in the game (although in an ultra-rare drop), it makes it a "convenience". Sorry, beat around this bush all you want, but players are going to see it as an advantage.

Honestly, it would probably be much better for Turbine to say, in the long run, that "Yes, we are selling items that give advantage in the store" and get it over with than to have this conversation every time something that clearly adds advantage in the eyes of the players is "slipped" into the store.

I mean, it's obvious, due to the nonavailability of the store on Bullroarer, that Turbine does not want us to see this item (and possible other items?) in the store. And it's also obvious that the cryptic way the original post of this thread was written ("At some point (and we remind everyone that Bullroarer is a test server and things are always subject to change so this may be sooner or later, or it may be much later or much sooner (more soon?)), store equivalent items will also be introduced.") that this item will be available in the store. Why try to hide it?

Originally Posted by Sapience

They're drops. THere's a full description of what they do and where you can find them in the Bullroarer release notes.

Again, without the availability of the store, it's much harder to test these items. But, like I mentioned, it's probably not something that Turbine wants to be tested at this time. And I seriously doubt anyone will get one to drop in the time that Bullroarer is open.

And, finally, we're running into a bit of a radiance issue here. If the items increase in drop rate in 3, 6 or 12 man (probably Tier 3) skirmishes, you're locking out any solo players form ever having a higher chance of receiving the item as well.

Just my thoughts on the whole situation.

To increase motivation to run T2 and T3 skirmishes (which is lacking, at least on my server), please make sure the drop rate for Starlit Crystals is slightly higher per tier of skirmish you do. That would be sweet, I want people to run T3 skraids.

I guess the drop rate will be something around stat tomes ? Which I've seen dropped 3 times since they were introduced (never won one) - and I play several hours per day.

Originally Posted by Lothirien

The Silmarillion. Although that was extremely rare. Presumably these crystals are a lesser version of that crystal, which Feanur (I think?) infused with the light of a star. The idea that thousands of these crystals are scattered around seems a stretch, but I think that's where they get the idea.

True, but there's a lot of that. There isn't evidence that there were millions of glowing blue swords either, or herds of boars the size of trucks, yet we have them.

Originally Posted by Sapience

They're drops. THere's a full description of what they do and where you can find them in the Bullroarer release notes.

Can we get the level(s) of the skirmish required to drop them. That isn't in the release notes.

Thanks

I'm excited for this! I think everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath and wait till you actually see one and how they drop prior to freaking out about them.

Just looted from the final chest of a L51 Maze (2nd run):



Going to make a LI that can use it to see what will happen and will post results. About the drop rate increasing based on group-size, that's probably more to do with the fact that you'd be rolling for the crystal against 3/6/12 others than anything I'd guess.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

Just looted from the final chest of a L51 Maze (2nd run):



Going to make a LI that can use it to see what will happen and will post results. About the drop rate increasing based on group-size, that's probably more to do with the fact that you'd be rolling for the crystal against 3/6/12 others than anything I'd guess.

Please ID it. Max it. ; Record all the values for all of the things (ratings base, maxed, ). Use 1 crystal. Record everything again

If you get a 2nd crystal, use it on the same LI, repeat. Record values.

My first impression was that it added 1 rank of DPS, Tact healing, Shield Rank. So I'm imagining instead the the DPS rank stopping at 7 it goes to 10 with an equal amount of DPS added each time, please tell me that this is not the case.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what these things do. At first, I thought/hoped this might be the long sought-after means of making LIs "grow with us" and that these gems would raise the minimum level of our LIs. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I think, in a nutshell, like so much else that has been introduced since the new business model took effect, this is raising the hackles of those who realize that whenever content is introduced, there is now an unavoidable question that didn't exist prior: Was this added to the game because it represents inherently good game design that players will find enjoyable and compelling? Or was this added to the game at the request of those who are looking to sell us more things in the Store?

To put it another way. . . would these even exist in the game if Turbine didn't have the motivation to put them in the store. Therefore, do they exist because they represent an improvement to the game, or just a means of making another buck? Of course, sometimes it can be both. But it need not be. And sometimes it almost definitely isn't both.

Once upon a time, things were added to the game and we could all assume that they were being added because it was going to make the game more fun or compelling as a game. Now, we wonder. . .

Originally Posted by apb8808

My first impression was that it added 1 rank of DPS, Tact healing, Shield Rank. So I'm imagining instead the the DPS rank stopping at 7 it goes to 10 with an equal amount of DPS added each time, please tell me that this is not the case.

Crystals go on your Legendary Item, NOT your weapon. With the exception of maybe the LMs that have tac damage on their items, people will not see an increase in DPS.

Originally Posted by phillbvi2

Crystals go on your Legendary Item, NOT your weapon. With the exception of maybe the LMs that have tac damage on their items, people will not see an increase in DPS.

"Star-lit crystals will upgrade the DPS, tactical healing rating, tactical damage rating or shield use rank of your Legendary items. " - from the patch notes

More clarification please. Makes no sense to me that it would only apply to class items.

Well, since the info mentioned "grade any ratings based legacies as well as secondary ratings and stats", I figured I'd use the L65 max item against a L65 SA Halberd. When using the item you get the following:


Since it changed a few things, I'll post a summary screen of what all changed:


Items that changed:

Max DPS: 84.3 -> 88.1
Passive Stats: +157 -> +163 Morale, +21 -> +22 Vit
Relentless Attack Rating Max: +435 -> +454
Def Strike Armour Rating Max: +470 -> +505
On Guard Parry Rating Max: +435 ->+454

Overall, not bad changes. The crystal was not bound and could be traded/mailed and dropped from a L51 Maze. LI stuff tends to drop starting at L50 so I thought I'd give them a try to obtain. Dropped on my second run and I'll try for a 2nd/3rd. (I guess that it why there is a up to L65 crystal and probably one greater).

Items that did not change:
Point cost for legacy ranks
Total points
Min. Level
in-combat power regen
to arms duration legacy
telling mark legacy
motivational speech legacy

Thank You for picking something that I could compare with easily

A 65 FA Halberd has a base DPS of 69.7 ranks to 88.9

Your 1 crystal took the max dps to 88.1. ..I imagine the 2nd and 3rd would show marginal improvement in comparision to the first and it might cap at 88.9. Certainly it'd be foolish to let it exceed the 88.9 on a FA right?

If they drop for solo players as often as, say, sigils, and you can have a stack of 20 lying around in your vault at any time that you can share among your alts, then it's a nice addition.

Otherwise, I have to wonder about the timing of introducing such an unpopular addition to a very sensitive subject precisely when you're most at risk from competition.

looks like it essentially is a level up item after all- % values won't change since they're consistant across all legendaries (eg a 51 third age cappy 2h sword can have a max buff of 5% morale to motivating speech, and a 75 first age gives exactly the same) but all other point based values are increased as if the item was higher level. easy enough to test, slap one on a 64 third age and compare to an equivalent at 65.

on a side note, if you apply the difference from that to a 75 first age (~2.568% dps increase), it should max out at ~136dps with one crystal, ~139.5 with two, and ~143dps with all 3 crystals applied (in theory and assuming the maths is right, no guarantees there).

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Thank You for picking something that I could compare with easily

A 65 FA Halberd has a base DPS of 69.7 ranks to 88.9

Your 1 crystal took the max dps to 88.1. ..I imagine the 2nd and 3rd would show marginal improvement in comparision to the first and it might cap at 88.9. Certainly it'd be foolish to let it exceed the 88.9 on a FA right?

84.3 to 88.1 is a 4.5% increase in dps. I think it'll exceed the 1st age's 88.9 dps by the 2nd crystal upgrade. Otherwise nobody would use a second crystal, let alone a 3rd one. This doesn't make first agers undesirable since they would presumably increase by ~4-5% with each upgrade as well. On the contrary, it'll push you to grind not only for the crystals but even more for the 1st agers. Of course it doesn't say anything about how much they intend for us to grind to obtain those crystals, and thus make the store alternative that much more attractive. For example, there could be all types of different crystals that only work on specific groups of items, and grinding for crystals for 3rd agers until you get some would not dispense you from re-grinding for crystals that work on 2nd agers, etc... I can imagine something more elaborate as well: White crystals for Upgrade1, Yellow for Upgarde2 and Blue for Upgrade3. And Striped variations for class items.

Grinding is Lotro's middle name.

That, and Store.

Originally Posted by Alad.

For example, there could be all types of different crystals that only work on specific groups of items, and grinding for crystals for 3rd agers until you get some would not dispense you from re-grinding for crystals that work on 2nd agers, etc...

the only limitation stated on the crystal tooltip is the max level (65 for crystals from sub 65 content seemingly going by the 2 drops people found when i was online). not saying they wouldn't do that, just that currently there's no indication of that.

So, it's just a buff to LIs, rather than a means to truly level up our LIs with us instead of having to trash them every update? I'm starting to think that will never be a possibility.

Just donated a star-lit crystal to Flipara so we can all see the comparision with a 2 crystal setup. Ideally I or someone else would make a 65 FA LI halberd on BR to do some direct comparisions, but MMorsel's data's good that far back in level fortunately. Start small and extrapolate.

Originally Posted by Alad.

84.3 to 88.1 is a 4.5% increase in dps. I think it'll exceed the 1st age's 88.9 dps by the 2nd crystal upgrade. Otherwise nobody would use a second crystal, let alone a 3rd one. This doesn't make first agers undesirable since they would presumably increase by ~4-5% with each upgrade as well. On the contrary, it'll push you to grind not only for the crystals but even more for the 1st agers.

I was being an optimist. If the raw LI points are going to be the only aspect of a FA that make it desirable now as such, I don't know how many people will be trying things like T2 ToO, when FAs are pretty much the only thing apart from the challenge getting some of the few players doing it in there now.

Updated numbers from the 2nd crystal on the L65 SA Halberd (reg -> 1st crystal -> 2nd Crystal):

Max DPS: 84.3 -> 88.1 -> 92.0
Passive Stats: +157 -> +163 -> +168 Morale, +21 -> +22 -> +22 Vit, +49.8 -> +49.8 -> 50.4 icpr
Relentless Attack Rating Max: +435 -> +454 -> +473
Def Strike Armour Rating Max: +470 -> +505 -> +540
On Guard Parry Rating Max: +435 ->+454 -> +473

Originally Posted by Fipiara

Updated numbers from the 2nd crystal on the L65 SA Halberd (reg -> 1st crystal -> 2nd Crystal):

Max DPS: 84.3 -> 88.1 -> 92.0
Passive Stats: +157 -> +163 -> +168 Morale, +21 -> +22 -> +22 Vit, +49.8 -> +49.8 -> 50.4 icpr
Relentless Attack Rating Max: +435 -> +454 -> +473
Def Strike Armour Rating Max: +470 -> +505 -> +540
On Guard Parry Rating Max: +435 ->+454 -> +473

Thanks for the info! It seems all rating increases, and stat increases, are minor. The dps increase is substantial (and linear) and the only thing that would be worth the trouble.

I wish someone can do the same for tactical damage, a LM staff for example (or any tactical class' weapon). Since that damage increase is given as a "rating", they'd have to record the damage of a skill as well before and after the upgrades.

As a Captain, I'm really starting to worry about these crystals. I already have to sink runes and scrolls of empowerment into four different items (main weapon, main emblem, and buff weapon/emblem), ontop of any side weapon that I may want to use for specialty purposes - tanking weapon, healing weapon, etc. Now you're telling me that you want to add yet -another- grind into the mix? Just by looking at it, I can tell that I'll already be wanting 12 Starlit Crystals so that I can get the best bang out of my weapon, emblem, and buffing items.

Honestly, instead of worrying about a Moria revamp, developers should be looking into a way to revamp Legendary Items, because their implementation has been a complete failure since they were first introduced. What happened to the "weapon that grows with you"? I thought they were supposed to feel special (read: legendary). But no, as it stands now I'm throwing out my main weapon every 3-5 months for something better.

At this point, I would rather be out running an instance like Barad Gularan a hundred times for my Captain's Arm than spend the same amount of time grinding out skirmishes for legendary upgrades. At least back in Shadows of Angmar, my weapon did feel unique and special to me. With LI's, it's completely opposite, I can't even feel proud of my weapon because everyone else has the same one, and I know that I'll just be trashing it another few months.

Originally Posted by Alad.

Thanks for the info! It seems all rating increases, and stat increases, are minor. The dps increase is substantial (and linear) and the only thing that would be worth the trouble.

I wish someone can do the same for tactical damage, a LM staff for example (or any tactical class' weapon). Since that damage increase is given as a "rating", they'd have to record the damage of a skill as well before and after the upgrades.

I'll certainly be willing to donate crystals for a tact-damage item. (lm staff, runestone).. and a healing item of either type.

What we could use are people willing to copy from live and donate L65 FA symbols so we get direct comparisons. Or do some OD T2CM really quickly to get some for the testing comparisons.

What's it like to get these? Is it a 1 crystal for everyone deal like bounties, or 1 for the group? how often do they drop?

Looted another L65 and under crystal to apply a the third upgrade to the L65 SA Halberd:



Text summary of what changed:

Max DPS: 84.3 -> 88.1 -> 92.0 -> 95.8
Relentless Attack Rating Max: +435 -> +454 -> +473 -> +492
On Guard Parry Rating Max: +435 ->+454 -> +473 -> +492
Def Strike Armour Rating Max: +470 -> +505 -> +540 -> +575

Passive Stats
Morale: +157 -> +163 -> +168 ->
Vitality: +21 -> +22 -> +22 -> +23
In-combat Power Regen +49.8 -> +49.8 -> 50.4 -> 50.4

So far I've had roughly 2 in 8-10 L50-52 maze runs. Too small of a sample size to guess anything at all in terms of drop %. My guess would be "extremely rare" is really for LT drops and since the maze is a 6-man the % drop is noticeably higher and/or I have extreme luck.

What is the drop rate for it in skirmishes?