Thread: A short story of Lothlorien, Turbine and Lore

As Fiohn points out you don't need Turbine to tell you that you have to get Acquaintance with those elves before you can enter Lothlorien. You can do it as a self imposed rule and just assume that everyone you meet has done the same and everyone can be happy.

I can understand why people want to skip Lothlorien. It's a low level and outdated area. Enedwaith is now a 60~65 zone which serves as an alternative zone to Lothlorien, so Lothlorien is no longer a "required" zone. For players who just want to get to the latest epic and latest zones without retracing their way back into low level content, I can see why a way to skip Lothlorien is desirable.

But I disagree with the removal of the arrow storm.

To throw out a few alternative solutions:-

i. Add Galadhrim rep rewards to the quests in Thinglad. The quests there currently has no rep reward, but we're helping the elves there. For players who only want to quest in Great River, this will be enough (to hit acquaintance at least).

ii. Add Galadhrim rep rewards to parts of the V3 epics that involve the elves. For example, after the Galadriel dream sequence, which doesn't require prior access to Lothlorien at all since it starts in Dunland, bestow 10,000 rep. At least this makes sense because after this event Galadriel has a reason to let the players pass through. This brings the players straight up to acquaintance level. For players who only want to move on with the latest epic update, this will be enough as well.

iii. Add some dialog options to Haldir for direct teleport to Thinglad or Echad Sirion.

Removing story from the game is always bad (yes, actions of getting shot down is storytelling, the best type in an MMO, story of activity without words).

Now presumably the crowd being catered to with this have never read the books or seen the movies (yes, there are a fair number of players who haven't). They are also F2P without access to swift travel and skip quests, such as the epic that grants access, as too time consuming.

About the only thing they'd have access to is a task board.

The part that sucks, is this is something worthy of not renewing a license over. In fact, when I pitch the game to friends', the elves shooting unknown players is a selling point I bring up as representative of the quality of the storytelling.

Please find an alternative solution that isn't so drastic and expensive. (I don't mean expensive in terms of time/effort, I mean costly in terms of Turbine's, and the product's, reputations.)



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

To be honest, it wasn't implemented that great anyway.

When I walked up there I was in the mindset of the rest of the game. You get coerced to get rep in previous places, namely the lone lands. So you had quite a bit of coercion towards rep going on and at worst you wouldn't get your quest reward.

I don't think the Lorien gatekeeper dudes make it clear enough that the game mechanics changed and your character will suffer an actual death if you don't get this rep. There should be an out-of-character text box, somewhat like what you get when a quest has automatic travel built in.

Originally Posted by Zombielord

How about this then:

You can chose to get blindfolded by the elven guards and they send you over the river to Mirkwood. The boats that would normally take you back to Lorien now require Aquaintance standing to prevent "outsiders" from re-entering Lorien.

People would still be able to rush to the precious lvl cap and the Galadhrim can remain the stiff necked elves they've always been.

This is a good idea. Swift travel through Lorien without seeing it. If you want to see it, get the rep.

Personally my own game experience wouldn't suffer too much if people could just do the equivalent of bribing the guard (you can just get the rep items on the AH and right-click away so why not make the NPC accept cash for rep in this case?).

All you lore monkeys really need to get back into your cages. This is giving people options, which is a good thing. If I don't want to do a single Lothlorien quest then I don't have to and everyone who presumes to know that keeping Mirkwood, The Great River and beyond gated by Lothlorien quests is what's right for this game is forgetting the cardinal rule of gaming which is to have fun. If people don't want to grind faction rep for whatever reason, even if it's only acquaintance, then they shouldn't have to and you have no right to force it on them.

Originally Posted by FieldMedic

All you lore monkeys really need to get back into your cages. This is giving people options, which is a good thing. If I don't want to do a single Lothlorien quest then I don't have to and everyone who presumes to know that keeping Mirkwood, The Great River and beyond gated by Lothlorien quests is what's right for this game is forgetting the cardinal rule of gaming which is to have fun. If people don't want to grind faction rep for whatever reason, even if it's only acquaintance, then they shouldn't have to and you have no right to force it on them.

You happened to have missed the 3 or 4 other solutions offered to access those zones without removing the arrowstorm?

You already provide all of the necessary rep in 1 single epic quest. ; What's next? Removing the dread line in angmar?

In principle, I agree that a single region should not block off access to content in other regions, and that there should always be options for playing the pieces that most interest the player. But giving options to people who want to skip whole regions should not interfere with the experience of those who want to play out that content fully (and the reverse applies as well). Both styles are valid, and there are solutions that would make both groups happy if Turbine would stop being so lazy.

We're not talking about a massive grind like Grey Company kindred, we're talking about acquaintance level in a small, simple, attractive area. Those who want to play in Lorien can do so after a short amount of questing. How bad can it be to spend an hour or two outside in the sunshine after your time in Moria?

For those who want to skip one of the most beautiful areas of the game (although admittedly it is one where the quest content is much more in need of a revamp than Moria ever was!), Turbine should come up with a bypass option that does not interfere with a much-loved tradition. The posters here have described creative, lore-appropriate, and practical solutions (love the blindfolded transport quest to Mirkwood idea btw, +rep). A task board for faster progression, alternate travel paths around the region, etc., are all workable options.

Turbine, listen to your fans--you can do better!

Originally Posted by FieldMedic

All you lore monkeys really need to get back into your cages. This is giving people options, which is a good thing. If I don't want to do a single Lothlorien quest then I don't have to and everyone who presumes to know that keeping Mirkwood, The Great River and beyond gated by Lothlorien quests is what's right for this game is forgetting the cardinal rule of gaming which is to have fun. If people don't want to grind faction rep for whatever reason, even if it's only acquaintance, then they shouldn't have to and you have no right to force it on them.

Technically, you -don't- have to. Just do the first six books of the Moria epic, you get 10K rep with Lothlorien, which allows you to pass the borders. I'm indifferent to the change, to be honest, but it is head scratching, as the Moria epic awards one of the capstones. Everybody is going to be doing the epic for that alone.

I think the best way is to make the landscape south of the Celebrant river reputation free. The rest should stay as it is.

The positive thing is, that you have a physical border there in form of the river. Place a few guards on the bridges and all is okay for me personally.

EDIT: Just having some books here with texts about Lorien, Freely translated from german:
"All foes making a step on the north side of the Celebrant River will have to die."

From "News from Middle Earth" - Part 2: "The second age" - Attachement C: "The Borders of Lothlorien"

Just create a path running south between the mountains and the woods, in the book Aragorn took that path when he was delivering Gollum to Thranduil's Halls. As for the Docks, why go to Mirkwood to help the Elves you do want to have anything to do with? Would it cost that much to create a path with NOTHING to interact with like the path from cross roads to 21st hall.

Originally Posted by Jewl_of_the_lake

Just create a path running south between the mountains and the woods, in the book Aragorn took that path when he was delivering Gollum to Thranduil's Halls. As for the Docks, why go to Mirkwood to help the Elves you do want to have anything to do with? Would it cost that much to create a path with NOTHING to interact with like the path from cross roads to 21st hall.

Jewl has the right idea. Dont compromise the lore, yet fix the issue. Allowing another path would be ideal, but at the expense of a little work on Turbine's part.

For what it's worth (which I gather these days isn't much), getting turned into a pincushion on the banks of the Nimrodel, earning my way into the woods and getting to see the beauty of Lothlorien firsthand is one of those moments that really sealed the deal for me.

Prior to playing Lotro I had only seen Peter Jackson's movies, and it really wasn't enough to get me interested in the whole thing. I honestly could not understand why people loved this stuff so much until I got to see it all in the game! I got a copy of the audio books of the trilogy (the Hobbit, also), went back and sort of followed along with the fellowship. Seeing those landmarks, learning the importance of those named NPCs, having the game tie in so well with the books gave them a new significance that made me a fan for life. Isn't this why Turbine was given license to use Tolkien's IP in the first place?

We tell our kinnies that LotrO is about the journey, and not just the destination. The grind to level cap becomes much less of a grind when they learn to sit back and enjoy the ride, which leads also to them spending more time (and money) in game. Were we wrong?

Immersion is not just a buzz word. When the characters and environments of our favorite games allow us to relax for a bit and pretend to be someone else for a while, that's immersion. It doesn't require elaborate quest lines or state of the art graphics. Does everyone who play LotrO require a lore-immersed environment? Certainly not. Does good immersion require getting nailed in the head by an archer hidden among the trees? That's subject to debate, of course. The question isn't whether you can get away with removing this experience from the game. The question is whether this will lead to developers further chipping away at lore-sensitive moments in the game for the sake of "convenience," until it drives away those of us who do play for those little moments.

tl;dr Son, I am disappoint if this makes it live, for sure.

As an elven lore-mistress of Lorien who had to garner rep to get back to Lorien apparently... Please count me as one very disappointed to lose the "guarded wood" to convenience. There's some great suggestions, blindfolds included, detours, that I hope Turbine might consider instead. This was one of the few features of lore (sadly yes I learned from the movies) that I thought was a wonderful touch, and am loathe to let it fade without a peep.

Originally Posted by FieldMedic

All you lore monkeys really need to get back into your cages. This is giving people options, which is a good thing.

Putting pre-leveled characters and raid gear in the store would be giving people options, too. I'd be hard pressed to see it as a good thing.

Let's face it, the lore is the one thing that makes LOTRO special. Take that away, and what's left? An ultra-casual (free) WoW knock off...and one, I, for one, don't care to play that kind of a game. Middle earth is what brought me here, and Middle earth is what keeps me paying and playing.

Having Lorien accessible to anyone with the rep is a compromise necessitated by game mechanics. Having Lorien wide open is just stupid.

I really hope this goes away before update seven goes live.

I liked how the Lorien elves were like slack jawed hillbillies with shot guns shouting "get off my land!".
If a concession has to be made why not just lower the amount of rep needed or increase the amount of rep you get from doing entry quests.
Being shot at is fun and makes you want to get the rep so that they dont shoot you anymore. If the entry quests take 2 hours to complete then that should be short enough not to annoy fast levellers.

Or what about putting in an shifty human/dwarf npc outside the border who can be paid with money or a quick 20 min quest to people smuggle you around/through Lorien without the elves suspecting and therefore get you to the Mirkwood swift stable. Once you click that stablemaster you can bypass Lorien quite happily.

Everybody is happy then.

Add me to the list of people disappointed and saddened by this change. Lothlorien is, peaceful, protected from the war and also beautifully realised by Turbine - it's meant to be very special place in the world of Middle Earth and LoTRO, the rep requirement is an important part of that.

The most frustrating thing is it's completely unnecessary. To gain access to Lorien one needs to complete Vol2, Book6 and to earn one of the three Moria legendary traits one needs to complete... wait for it... Vol2, Books 1-6. As far as I'm concerned that makes the Moria epic line a requirement for any character.

Where does the streamlining stop? Why not go further... just mail everyone their LIs when they ding 45 and then they won't need to bother with that pesky Watcher business.

"One does not simply walk into Mordor"; or Lorien for that matter. Frodo and Sam encountered plenty of obstructions on their journey to Mordor, and a very important part of the story is how they overcame them. Yet we so called heroes can't even be bothered to journey anywhere until someone clears a nice easy path for us...

Originally Posted by FieldMedic

All you lore monkeys really need to get back into your cages. This is giving people options, which is a good thing. If I don't want to do a single Lothlorien quest then I don't have to and everyone who presumes to know that keeping Mirkwood, The Great River and beyond gated by Lothlorien quests is what's right for this game is forgetting the cardinal rule of gaming which is to have fun. If people don't want to grind faction rep for whatever reason, even if it's only acquaintance, then they shouldn't have to and you have no right to force it on them.

Of what grind are you speaking of? Do you realize Lothlorien reputation is the single most idiotically easy to obtain reputation in the game? You can get to kindred in maybe 6 hours of playing, which is absurd. I laughed every time I did it, especially after the Moria rep grind to get the goat (at least the slow goat change is good and sensible).

I would propose a toggle switch, an option somewhere to toggle the game between "lore" mode and "easy" mode.

Moria IS DARK. Lothlorien IS RESTRICTED. Anything else and you can just about scrap Lord of the Rings from the title.

Why is it that the spoonfeeding continues in places where it really isn't necessary.

On the other hand, we have the Great River and its gigantic reputation grind. That needs to be done in groups. Please explain where is the fun in THAT?

I'm also against making a change of Lothlorien access - this is such a nice implementation of lore that I would be very sad to see it go. I think providing a fast travel route directly to the Great River is the best way to go, in case there are people who due to some reason or another do not wish to purchase the Lothlorien quest pack. I still think it's worth doing it, if not for the lore, then for the nice recipes you get, and besides it is a welcomed relief after Moria, which is exactly as described in the books.

I do understand why this change is considered from a gameplay point, but I think that going the route of prioritising gameplay over lore will cost dearly in the long run. I am one if those who had never played an MMO before, and I started only because of the lore. I still enjoy the journey a lot, but if it gets swept away for the sake of gameplay convenience, I wouldn't find the game compelling anymore, as it will be just another fantasy MMO. I know that this change is actually minor in the grand scheme of things, but the beauty of the Lord of the Rings is that small things matter the most. Thus, all these small touches that give homage to the books are actually one of LOTRO's biggest strengths.

Please, think twice before taking them away so easily.

I wonder if this change would have been made if the game were still a subscription-only model.

I can't imagine that removing the small barrier to get access to Lothlorien would even have been considered if things like, "We might be hurting sales of the quest packs beyond Lothlorien" were not a concern.

Regardless of the real reason for doing this, it seems absolutely unnecessary. I'm not much of a lore scholar, but I'd like to think that some things in Middle Earth are sacred, and one of those things should definitely be "the most mistrustful/isolationist group of Elves alive doesn't let strangers wander into its land."

It is a sad thing when every gameplay decision must be decided on whether or not it will hurt any chance on people spending money on the game. "Will this keep people from paying or not?" "Will this make people pay for it or not?" "Will this entice people to pay for more?" "If we don't do this will people not spend money to move on?"

Originally Posted by zzbusch2

It is a sad thing when every gameplay decision must be decided on whether or not it will hurt any chance on people spending money on the game. "Will this keep people from paying or not?" "Will this make people pay for it or not?" "Will this entice people to pay for more?" "If we don't do this will people not spend money to move on?"

Although I hate when otherwise fruitful discussions get turned into discussions over the subscription model, it DOES give players a way to impact decisions, by putting our money where our mouth is.

Friends and I have been playing a while now, I play more and scout out future investments for them. Yes, my opinion affects far more purchases than my own. I too had not played an MMO before, but I'm not a big lore monger, that being said, the "realism" of a fantasy world carries weight. Another doesn't play MMOs at all. Another has played a few and loves the environment and depth of Lotro.

Well guess what? Our characters are on the verge of Moria and looking forward to future investments. Mirkwood? Affirmative, already purchased by all of us. Lothlorien? I will no longer recommend it based on this change. (For those remembering the crafting recipes, they are inconsequential nowadays.)

Someone else mentioned in the grand scheme of things it's a little thing. Well these little things do add up. Micropayments only work if there's a quantity of them.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

You know what really doesn't make sense in the lore?

Having elves, especially Lothlorien elves being shot for crossing the bounds of Lothlorien.

'nuff said.

Originally Posted by Jewl_of_the_lake

Just create a path running south between the mountains and the woods, in the book Aragorn took that path when he was delivering Gollum to Thranduil's Halls. As for the Docks, why go to Mirkwood to help the Elves you do want to have anything to do with? Would it cost that much to create a path with NOTHING to interact with like the path from cross roads to 21st hall.

I think this is an extremely good suggestion, and I think if the community can get behind something that is lore appropriate and addresses the concerns, perhaps we can convince Turbine to implement this in a more flavorful way. Have a nice, winding horse route through the mountains that delivers to you Enedwaith without having to enter the lands of Lothlorien.

I think Mirkwood is too intricately tied to the elves to remove the gating there, but I think the options that are already available are enough to suffice. If you're talking about a f2p player - those people are going to have done the epic quests because they didn't have to pay extra for that content. VIP? They have access to the quests and there's not a good lore appropriate reason to enter Mirkwood into a Lothlorien encampment if they don't really trust you, no matter who's name you know.

I think what Turbine is looking at is that someone with only enough TP to afford one zone to bridge Moria > Isengard are pigeonholed into Loth currently. What I'm surprised by is that I would have thought the data supported Mirkwood being treated much like Angmar - old endgame content that has better leveling alternatives available. As Enedwaith was revamped to accommodate 60-65, it's ideal to skip Mirkwood entirely in favor of pushing into Isen. People aren't likely treating Mirkwood on the same footing as Moria or Isengard, and the only current reason to keep it an "expansion" is to charge VIPs for it. I think instead of choosing between three zones, they should combine Loth and Mirkwood quests. Those that own Mirkwood already get the epic quest or dailies to gate them in, and Turbine could still sell them the Loth quests if they want that convenience factor. Those with the Loth quest pack get access to Mirk quests/deeds, but not the instance cluster/raid. This allows them to still have something to sell to people that picked up Path of Fellowship bundles, while making the new Loth/Mirkwood combo a viable comparison to Enedwaith and preserving the instances/raids as a separate store purchase for VIPs.

I did not read all of the posts in this thread, but if Turbine is hell bent on removing the rep requirement to enter, at least make it a quest reward like crossing the ugly statues in Angmar. I'm sorry, but there is nothing in the books that implies the Elves would let you in.

How about rep to enter the city itself maybe? Something...

Originally Posted by Widoch

I did not read all of the posts in this thread, but if Turbine is hell bent on removing the rep requirement to enter, at least make it a quest reward like crossing the ugly statues in Angmar. I'm sorry, but there is nothing in the books that implies the Elves would let you in.

How about rep to enter the city itself maybe? Something...

Actually, it is in effect a quest reward already. When you complete Volume II, Book 6, you get 10,000 reputation with the Galadhrim, which is exactly what you need to reach acquaintance status, if you haven't any other quest in the Dimril Dale before. Basically, the change is made for those who wouldn't bother completing Book 6, and they want to proceed directly to Mirkwood or to the Great River.

I would understand if this were the only incentive to complete Book 6, but you also unlock one of your legendary traits, which should be quite strong motivation for doing it, not to mention the story. Yet again, I guess I am wrong to think so ...

Originally Posted by Adanamir

I would understand if this were the only incentive to complete Book 6, but you also unlock one of your legendary traits, which should be quite strong motivation for doing it, not to mention the story. Yet again, I guess I am wrong to think so ...

This is the reason (outside of the complete knife in the heart to the lore) that I think this is one of the stupidest changes Turbine has ever proposed to this game. Who is it supposed to be helping, anyway? I assume the folks racing to the level cap. And what does one do at level cap? Presumably, run instances/raids/endgame content.

And what is almost a requirement for that stuff? Trait sets. Now maybe there are some classes that *don't* want to have all three of their legendary capstones, and maybe for some classes the one granted by the epic isn't that valuable....

But in my experience, if you want to maximize your endgame potential, being able to re-trait to the full potential of your class is a requirement...not an option. So as far as I can see, this is not only ripping away a very nice connection to LotR, it's also completely unnecessary, as (I assume) the majority of the player base will *STILL* complete V2 B1-6 for the trait...and thus already have the rep required to enter Lothlorien.

Way to waste developer time on something the game *doesn't* need (and many DO NOT WANT) while so many other things are still screaming for attention.

Originally Posted by Adanamir

Actually, it is in effect a quest reward already. When you complete Volume II, Book 6, you get 10,000 reputation with the Galadhrim, which is exactly what you need to reach acquaintance status, if you haven't any other quest in the Dimril Dale before. Basically, the change is made for those who wouldn't bother completing Book 6, and they want to proceed directly to Mirkwood or to the Great River.

I would understand if this were the only incentive to complete Book 6, but you also unlock one of your legendary traits, which should be quite strong motivation for doing it, not to mention the story. Yet again, I guess I am wrong to think so ...

As I personally couldn't stand Moria and the never ending griping of the dwarves, I high tailed it out as soon as I could and did quests outside of Lothlorian to get enough rep to enter. It took me about 2 hours tops. If people don't want to finish the book, then they can spend a couple hours questing in the Dale. It's not a big deal and it won't kill lore like making Lothlorian a freeway.

While it would still be stupid, it would be less stupid to restrict access to the city itself until you have enough rep I guess.

I'll add my voice to those not happy about this change. There are other steps to removing the gate than this that can be done, as so many others have pointed out already. Lower the rep requirements, make the repeatables worth more rep, add some tasks to the dale to get rep, put a quest given by the gaurds that will give acquaintance rep (only able to be done if you don't have that rep level already), put a path around Lothlorien... There are a large number of ways they could do this without removing the one way that does make sense according the lore. That's not being lore police, that's simply trying to let it at least somewhat reflect what is written in the books.

Bad move Turbine to remove something like this.

I have to agree that removing this restriction is not a nice move. I find it fun that an outsider to Lothlorien cannot move freely through the woods. Even a Lothlorien elf can be out of the region for hundreds of years and not be trusted.

Another possible solution was giving travel routes (like stables) to the elven sentinels stationed around the woods.
- One to the East of Lothlorien (Mirkwood)
- One to the South (Great River region)
- One to the west (initial west Lothlorien regions)

It makes much more sense having elves guide you through (blindfolded) than letting anyone into their borders.

And once again, with the update going live with less than two weeks of BR time available on it, and in that miniscule amount of test time an overwhelmingly negative response to a certain change, Turbine illustrates, again, that they don't -actually- have any intemtion to listen to any of the feedback about anything, and only actually ask us for it at all out of PR courtesy.

Still hope we won't see Lothlorien open to anyone, just because it might slow down people from rushing to level cap ...

Lets wait and see.

/Edit:
Update 7 goes live and the elves are now friends to everyone ... *shakes head*