Thread: And Once Again, Nothing for Hunters

Originally Posted by JonXu

buh-bah-nuh-nah endurance QS is a tool. dps build??? ### lower ur agro, go full dps rotate 2 time swap to endurance spam QS and back to dps is it so hard? u think that other classes can use all skils what they have? tanks must hold agro thay cant go to dps stance and go full out, can they. same goes to healers can they use all skills? why the hell hunter should do the same? running raid and doing solo with same skill rotation is not gonna work

You do know that Endurance-QS on average reduces about as much threat as it generates itself right? The damage has gone up, the threat reduction not, so nowadays it's a threat neutral shot.

Which is exactly the thing people grouping hunters complain about: We can't reduce threat without doing less damage and by far the most efficient way of reducing our threat is simply doing nothing once in a while in our rotation. That can't be the way it's supposed to be, especially since we now risk being one-shotted as soon as you accidentally do pull aggro.

And all comparisons between Hunters and other DPS classes show they're equal when they're both going all-out, which means a Champion with Ebbing Ire will be able to do more damage in a raid setting because his DPS is not limited by threat. Yes our max DPS is fine, we just want something that allows us to actually use it when it matters, in the DPS-race raid bosses of ToO.

As for healers, I do happen to play a minstrel as well... An average minstrel just heals, a good minstrel will actually use his ballads to prevent damage (saving on heals) or buff the group DPS, coda to restore power continuously, keep HoTs running and heal in between that.
It seems that an average Hunter just goes all out, using all his skills to do as much damage as he can until he gets aggro. A good hunter on the other hand goes slowly, not using his big shots until the end of the fight to avoid pulling aggro. The difference is a good minstrel is defined by his ability to do 6 things at a time... a good Hunter by his ability to 'not do too much'.

Do hunters even need anything? I've seen hunters with 1 age bows 1hit lower ranked creeps.

Just get some better gear and some skills.

Originally Posted by JonXu

buh-bah-nuh-nah endurance QS is a tool. dps build??? ### lower ur agro, go full dps rotate 2 time swap to endurance spam QS and back to dps is it so hard? u think that other classes can use all skils what they have? tanks must hold agro thay cant go to dps stance and go full out, can they. same goes to healers can they use all skills? why the hell hunter should do the same? running raid and doing solo with same skill rotation is not gonna work

The problem is that Endurance QS rarely lowers your aggro because the threat down scales badly.

E.g. I'm DPS'ing a boss, I grab aggro, I press Beneath Notice to get boss back on tank, swap to Endurance Stance and spam QS. When BN ends I'll have aggro again unless the tank did something to prevent it.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-probably-work
This link shows a hunter who has tried to calculate how much threat is removed by Endu QS, and ~800 dmg worth of threat was his result, which sounds about right to what I have experienced using it. That means if your QS does more than 800 damage (which it does for most raid geared hunters), you will still be building more threat, just much slower than in precision stance.
Where a champ gives up 4 fervour for threat transfer and goes back to DPS, hunters have to lower their DPS for quite a while to avoid taking aggro. This limits our DPS potential a lot in fights with few targets.

On top of this our crits ruin it completely, if I give the tank a 5 second headstart, then do nothing except spamming QS in endurance stance, I've still managed to grab aggro on several occasions.

Originally Posted by Ingaras

- DPS is very ok, but depends a lot on crits. In 1vs1 or tougher landscape fights this basically means your opponent drops before he reaches you if you get lucky, if you're unlucky you better have a plan B. This also distorts the view from other classes... because, yes, once in a blue moon we are capable of some awesome stuff.

Originally Posted by Siege_of_Mirkwood

Do hunters even need anything? I've seen hunters with 1 age bows 1hit lower ranked creeps.

Just get some better gear and some skills.

Actually reading a thread helps...

Originally Posted by Ingaras

Actually reading a thread helps...

That was a response to the title.

It is pure fail to not give EACH class *something* every major update/expansion

As much as I hate Hunters, I agree it is wrong

Originally Posted by Siege_of_Mirkwood

That was a response to the title.

Fail .

Of, course, it's hard to understand but let me explain:
U7 is a small update. There are now big changes for classes - some content and fixes. In addition, there's pointlessly make changes for classes before RoR

Originally Posted by Arkue

Of, course, it's hard to understand but let me explain:
U7 is a small update. There are now big changes for classes - some content and fixes. In addition, there's pointlessly make changes for classes before RoR

It's far from pointless to fix skills. Example: SotE is a 5 second channel that ticks 120-200 morale and power heal every second, yet we only get 4 ticks. RoR is not really going to change anything except the amount healed.

The fact that devs cba to fix simple issues as this (or tell us its WAI or they're working on it) is why you see hunters raging on the forums.

It's interesting to see the majority of people who are telling hunters that not only do they not need fixing, but that they should stop crying about it and learn to play, are the ones who likely don't have hunters of their own. They few that do have their own (75) hunters likely don't have them raid ready and active. While the ones who are wishing for changes are raid ready hunters and/or PvMP hunters.

As most of us who do have a problem with the hunter are often raiders and PvMPers.

As a solo class the hunter is wonderful, many people, including myself have loved it as one and still do.


As a raiding class we struggle with aggro management problems, and for a few, power problems. Oftentimes trying to fix one of these problems makes the other one worse. Aside from the fact that CCing as a hunter seems to be laughed at (or shunned) by many decent players (even tho i have done a fairly decent job as a CC hunter in ToO).


As a PvMP class we have far too many known disadvantages. We're an induction class for one.
And i know you're going to say well LM's do just fine. Granted LM's have a lot of tools at their disposal from CC, debuffing, DOT's, AOE DOT's, AOE slows, a non induction self heal (INSTA!), and much much more. No hunters have none of these wonderful tricks at our disposal even though on paper we're supposed to be a CC secondary role class. The CC we do have is inadequate in practice: every stun and root we do is broken by damage, if it wasn't already reduced to half by audacity.

And as an induction class we have to remain still when fighting, as well as stop moving before you can begin attacking, oh and latency( the number of times i have seen the error message "you cannot do that while moving." is innumerable).

This is good and all when whatever you're attacking isn't hitting you back. If you are being hit back, then as an induction class you WILL suffer knock-backs. And as such the only way to counter act this as a hunter is to either equip a certain trait that will give you a 30s immunity to knock-backs (IF you increase the duration with a legacy) that will have a 90s cooldown(unless traited down to 60s) that costs 6 of your focus to activate(further reducing your DPS capability) OR you would have to trait to reduce your inductions, but that would mean heavily traiting only the blue hunter line. As such our CC goes out the window (as if it was truly viable to begin with), and our big-hits red line is all but ignored.

There's also the fact that every attack has to be done in the frontal 180 is another well known disadvantage for hunters. All any creep (or freep even) has to do is get behind your frontal 180 while you are in the middle of your induction and the attack pretty much auto-fails. Of course that's IF their attacks haven't already made enough knock-backs to make the induction go from ~1.5s to 5s+ before you HAVE to move away from them, expending focus from the movement (our only true DPS resource as of now), and maybe try to get off some melee moves to maybe slow them or buff ourselves with a near useless P/E rating or, if the hunter knows their stuff, they can get off a nice stun which can then be followed up by an induction move then if we have the luck of full focus we can shoot off 3 possibly high damaging attacks that CAN crit as high as 2k unbuffed and pray they all crit enough to kill the target.

Now this can obviously vary but what i gave you is basically what happens. You simply have to hope your damage is HIGH enough to kill whatever you're attacking in blazing speed before your over-all squishiness kills you in 1v1 combat. But beyond 1v1 a hunter has nearly no chance unless he's damned lucky or damned powerful. A majority of hunters will not be damned powerful by hunter standards.

So in PvP we want a way to better survive fights through evasion or self healing or just better CC capability. Or possibly a way to do moving damage, something near all freep classes but the LM seems to have (and I've been over the LM already). What many of us hunters wouldn't give to be able to fight while moving.

Which brings me to my next point. There is a ToO set called Faron which has a particular 5 piece bonus that makes moors hunters salavate and for good reason, it reduces the cost of focus of 2 of our moves while in fleetness (for anyone who has not played a hunter you will not understand this). This allows us to do that one thing we oh so desire and that's move and fire. And whats funny is this makes us nearly a VIABLE solo class in the moors. Tell me if im wrong but does any other class have to go through that kind of trouble just to be Ok in pvp? Maybe I'm missing something somewhere along the line seeing as my Main is a hunter.



I suppose its time to level those underpowered alts of mine so i can see what it is i shouldn't be complaining about. Cant wait to see how terrible a champ is in PvP or raids, or my burglar, oh even my mini!

I agree and disagree with every other fellow hunters. My main is a hunter with all possible best gear in the game.

I run raids and also semi-active in moors (Honestly I don't do great against groups)

My raid setup is, 1800+ Agility, 600 Fate, 700-800 vit. I never run out of power, I do the most dps of the whole group. Since, I am the raid leader, I always remain as DPS assist. Where I don't get to experiment about my own hunter CC. I used to play a CC role at the lvl65 days, and I am sure I did it really well.

Moors setup, 1200-1400 agility, 600 Fate, 800-900 vit, 12k-13k tactical mitigation, helps me a lot in small groups or solo. I don't go in big groups because of lag issues and I really not a fan of raid vs raids in moors. (I have audacity 4)

The blue trait line remarkably decrease our inductions in moors. I don't believe in the term, "you gave champs a bubble, give us a bubble". There should be a fix to a class. We need to think out of the box for hunter's role.

In most games,

1. hunters can tame pets
2. they should be able to hit targets while moving
3. they should be able to disappear from a fight

I have heard, that hunter could DF in moors and turbine barred it because creeps started to complain. I don't really get it.

Anyway, I would like to see my hunter class getting little bit more attention and some upgrades.

Originally Posted by Exion_Blade

It's interesting to see the majority of people who are telling hunters that not only do they not need fixing, but that they should stop crying about it and learn to play, are the ones who likely don't have hunters of their own. They few that do have their own (75) hunters likely don't have them raid ready and active. While the ones who are wishing for changes are raid ready hunters and/or PvMP hunters.

Let me state then, as a person who has a 75 hunter and regularly raids with him, hunters do not need fixing. They could definitely do with an update for sure, on threat management especially, but to flat out say they are broken is wrong.

Also Needful Haste is only 3 Focus, not 6.

Originally Posted by imkush

I have heard, that hunter could DF in moors and turbine barred it because creeps started to complain. I don't really get it.

That "I don't really get it" was sarcastic, right?...

i am a lvl 75 raid ready(*kuch kuch*) pvmp hunter
although i must say because of my timezone+1 i got no good gear
there are hunters online who have that
1 of them is called spwit
in the ettenmoors every creep hates him BECAUSE HE KILS A FULL TRAITED WL WITH FULL AUDICATY IN 10 SECS
so stop crying about buffs
freeps are buffed enough!
nothing is wrong with the hunter

Let me guess, He does 9 to 12 Penshot with the Faran set, the potion and all and all ?

That's nearly the only way to take down a WL, a heal RK and maybe Minnie as well.

So yes, Hunter has got a great dps, and I don't know why so many people cry about fix... that could do more damage than good. Because ... why to care about the self heal SoE ? It's so weak already, and not usefull in the moors.

Originally Posted by TinDragon

Let me state then, as a person who has a 75 hunter and regularly raids with him, hunters do not need fixing. They could definitely do with an update for sure, on threat management especially, but to flat out say they are broken is wrong.

Also Needful Haste is only 3 Focus, not 6.

My bad i had another one of my focus chewing buffs in mind rather than NH when i posted that, it is indeed 3 focus and not 6.
How ever, i did not say they were broken either. They are in need of an update to threat management and survivability.

Originally Posted by jailwartho

i am a lvl 75 raid ready(*kuch kuch*) pvmp hunter
although i must say because of my timezone+1 i got no good gear
there are hunters online who have that
1 of them is called spwit
in the ettenmoors every creep hates him BECAUSE HE KILS A FULL TRAITED WL WITH FULL AUDICATY IN 10 SECS
so stop crying about buffs
freeps are buffed enough!
nothing is wrong with the hunter

Threat management buff will make that hunter kill creeps not in 10s, but 5s!

Originally Posted by blosco

There's ongoing debate about survabibility, event it's not a problem for me, just a question of building for full dps or acceptable dps with survavibility, even if I would like press onward to be an IH (dreaming... .Aggro management can be a problem since it's always a dps tradeof, but not that much in fact, more about group play.Strengh of the earth have the last stick not working for almort a year, but it's not a class breakerThe only thing that can be really (yes, really) painful is our animation root.If Turbine insist, and I kind of like it, of building instances where quick movement is key (think foundry 1st boss, T2 ToO lightning, etc..), not beeing able to move for like, 2s, during switch bow or blindside animation is quite problematic.If I would like anything changed now, it would definitely be that, and my BA does not have the same problem

The only place I have survivability problems is in the Ettenmoors. Other than that, I generally never have issues in the PvE world. I can even take on multiple mobs.

SotE gives one tick too little and still is not fixed. It does not scale over lvl 50 either.

SotE works fine for me. It doesn't need to scale over 50, but I wouldn't complain if it did.

Campfire does not scale over lv 50.

Only useful out of combat, doesn't really need to scale over 50. I rarely use them because healers will generally heal groups while OOC. This skill could probably go away, but cooks need it for certain recipes.

Traps do not scale well either.

As far as? My traps work fine on level 75 mobs.

Their threat creation severely limits their dps (unless the guardian is *very* good)

I rarely draw aggro. I think a lot of the problem is that most Hunters run in Strength Stance which will pretty much guarantee that they draw aggro. I run in Precision Stance, actually do more damage than Strength Stance (due to higher crits that occur more often) and rarely draw aggro if in a group. If I do, I just pop Improved Beneath Notice.

They got no (real) threat reduction skill which most other classes have.

Improved Beneath Notice?

The got no (real) increase crit chance skills, when other classes can get high crit scores with "ease"

Precision Stance + High Agility = Tons of Crits. I can EASILY take down a 12k - 16k mob with my 75 Hunter before it reaches me. I rarely have use melee skills on mobs.

Raids frequently take on an additionally burglar or minstel in WS instead of a hunter because they need "more dps" (and there is no champ or RK around).

I never have that problem. In fact, my Blood Arrow or Penetrating Shot will often do more damage than my Heartseeker sometimes.

Originally Posted by Elderban

...
Campfire does not scale over lv 50.

Only useful out of combat, doesn't really need to scale over 50. I rarely use them because healers will generally heal groups while OOC. This skill could probably go away, but cooks need it for certain recipes.

It is actually MORE beneficial at level cap than before. Through new itemization from level 66 onwards, especially melee classes will be short on will and OOCPR.

I have more ICPR on my champ than OOCPR.
On my Captain it is even worse as I need to fire out about 1500 power in buffs again after a revive from a wipe. The result is an increased wait times between fight resets.

They got no (real) threat reduction skill which most other classes have.

Improved Beneath Notice?

Note the "(real)". IBN is not really a threat reduction skill because it does nothing to your overall threat value; it only lowers this value for a set amount of time, after that it is at its full value again PLUS the threat you generated while it was active.

Real threat reduction skills are for example
Fighting Withdrawal http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Fighting_Withdrawal
Deflection http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Deflection_(Warden)
Ebbing Ire, which actually transfers threat http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ebbing_Ire

Originally Posted by Elderban

Their threat creation severely limits their dps (unless the guardian is *very* good)

I rarely draw aggro. I think a lot of the problem is that most Hunters run in Strength Stance which will pretty much guarantee that they draw aggro. I run in Precision Stance, actually do more damage than Strength Stance (due to higher crits that occur more often) and rarely draw aggro if in a group. If I do, I just pop Improved Beneath Notice.

Strength vs Precision doen't matter anything for threat: they removed the +threat component. If you rarely draw aggro while in Precision all the time, it simply means you're either running with good tanks & champs (since their Ebbing Ire doesn't just help them get rid of threat, it also helps the tank to gain it) or you're doing average dps. In PUGs I can pull aggro halfway through a fight in Endurance if I get a couple of crits...

Originally Posted by Elderban

They got no (real) threat reduction skill which most other classes have.

Improved Beneath Notice?

As said above: IBN just 'hides' your threat for a couple of seconds... it's not gone. You won't believe how often this happens in groups:
- Hunter pulls aggro on boss halfway through the fight, DPS holds back a bit until things are under control
- Hunter hits IBN, Tank sees he's lost boss, so hits Challenge, boss turns back
- Everything seems to be going smoothly for a bit, group ramps up DPS again
- IBN and Challenge run out, Boss turns to Hunter again
- Now IBN and Challenge are on cooldown, so Hunter either dies in 1 or 2 shots or runs away and dies while kiting because Tank couldn't get aggro back while chasing

Originally Posted by Elderban

The got no (real) increase crit chance skills, when other classes can get high crit scores with "ease"

Precision Stance + High Agility = Tons of Crits. I can EASILY take down a 12k - 16k mob with my 75 Hunter before it reaches me. I rarely have use melee skills on mobs.

If anything high crits hare hurting us because everyone keeps saying: But you can crit IPS without cooldown for 3k!!! I'd be very much in favour of lower crit magnitude and higher base damage. It would make my damage more reliable in solo, so mobs don't die within 2 shots one time and need 20 the other and give less spikes that suddenly draw aggro in groups. But atm we do need these crits to end up with the same overall damage as Champions and RKs.

Originally Posted by cnrsnl

What's wrong with hunters exactly?

Really nothing big is wrong, hunter is a fine class with a good amount of both dps and cc.
Hunters are swift but not so sturdy, as it should be
Hunters do great dps (even mine who is 1st alt only)


Problem is hunters MOAN to much instead of playing their class

Whats wrong with hunters that needs to be fixed so badly? Lol all i ever see is hunter complaints, something must be really messed up.

Hunters are fine when it comes to DPS really... even CC i mean... ye they can handle that pretty well..

I love playing my hunter, and raiding with him.... so in my eyes they are not really broken.

how ever we could use some update on a few skills, and perhaps some more Survive-ability... like a true Huntsman

If they would simply combine are legacies on LI's, I dont think threat would be an issue for pulling mobs off of tanks.. as it is.. no hunter that I know of uses the threat down legacies. I continuously switch between precision/endurance so I dont pull the aggro off the tank, I would much rather stay in precision and go ham on the boss rather than holding back. That is what are roll is to do.. DPS

Combine the folloing Legacys

Focus/Induction/Endurance Quick shot Threat--> Ranged Threat Down
Focus/Induction Crit multiplier--> Ranged Crit Multiplier
Focus/Induciton Power Cost--> Ranged Power Cost

Also these need to be looked at for various reasons.

SotE(Fix it)
Reactivate DF for the moors(30 min CD can be lowered with legacys). Kinda silly they took this away from us out there... when orcs use dyeng rage to get out of range so no renown is given, or wargs using sprint to get out of kill range when they have bleads they cant stop so no renown is given.

Just my 2 cents..

Originally Posted by Accomp

If they would simply combine are legacies on LI's, I dont think threat would be an issue for pulling mobs off of tanks.. as it is.. no hunter that I know of uses the threat down legacies. I continuously switch between precision/endurance so I dont pull the aggro off the tank, I would much rather stay in precision and go ham on the boss rather than holding back. That is what are roll is to do.. DPS

Combine the folloing Legacys

Focus/Induction/Endurance Quick shot Threat--> Ranged Threat Down
Focus/Induction Crit multiplier--> Ranged Crit Multiplier
Focus/Induciton Power Cost--> Ranged Power Cost

This could help a lot. As you mention, I have no room for the threat down legacies (or even for the power down legacies as it is now) in my LIs. 10% less threat is a big step in the right direction. However I still think a skill for (real) threat dumping would be much better.

PS: (Dont kill me for saying this) I would even like to have a skill for threat GENERATION. So that I can get that menace off the healers if need be. A couple of big hits is usually enough, but I kind of miss the old threat increase in strength stance. :P
Of course this is only viable if our survivability gets an improvement. As it is now it would just get us killed (or close to that).

For those of you thinking that nothing changes for Hunters with U7 have a look:



Blood Arrow and Split Shot now change their damagetype when Fire-oil is applied.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Er... you have one-click real threat reductions. No significant side effects. Then again, RKs are in the same boat from certain point of view - you should know why

RKs just have a MELEE real threat reduction skill. If a raiding RK is in melee, well, he/she has a problem .

Originally Posted by Accomp

Combine the folloing Legacys

Focus/Induction/Endurance Quick shot Threat--> Ranged Threat Down
Focus/Induction Crit multiplier--> Ranged Crit Multiplier
Focus/Induciton Power Cost--> Ranged Power Cost

Also these need to be looked at for various reasons.

Why? Every Class has similiar Legacies

RKs have:
Battle/Healing/Neutral Attuned Skill Power Cost
Fire Skill Damage/Fury of Storm Damage/Chill of Winter Damage

At least you don´t need 2 different LIs for each Traitline

Originally Posted by CaptainSweden

Really nothing big is wrong, hunter is a fine class with a good amount of both dps and cc.
Hunters are swift but not so sturdy, as it should be
Hunters do great dps (even mine who is 1st alt only)


Problem is hunters MOAN to much instead of playing their class

I question, if you have ever played a hunter.

Hunters have very little in terms of base CC, and every hunter views traiting for what little more CC we can get as a great sacrifice to dps.
Hunters are stationary turrets.
Hunters can be modified for moderate to fail dps, with fail dps likely being for morale.

Thanks, a hunter with:


You're welcome to convert that to hours played, in-game time.

Go ahead and MOAN.

Give hunters a survivability bubble like a Cappie or Champ and I'd be happier. Make the cooldown long like last stand or hips.

Originally Posted by Chris91

RKs have:
Battle/Healing/Neutral Attuned Skill Power Cost
Fire Skill Damage/Fury of Storm Damage/Chill of Winter Damage

And you find this to be functional?
(specially the damage part)

My first Alt. is a RK and I find this legacy distribution disgusting.
I can't switch from Fire to Lightning without changing LIs or loosing tons of DPS...

There is ONE major difference though: Hunters don't use only induction or focus shots. They always use both, whatever their traits are.
As a RK, I can trait red and use the fire damage legacy only without loosing much DPS (only on the occasional lightning/Ice skill). And trait only the Battle power down to decrease power consumption while attacking.
As a hunter, I need both legacies to make it work. If I don't trait one, I'm loosing DPS / spending more power / generating more threat on the other shots.

Unlike RKs that can have a stone for each purpose (one for lightning, one for fire and one for healing), hunters need these legacies on all their bows. There is no point on having an induction bow and a focus bow. At most, we have a damage Bow and a CC Bow, and even the CC bow needs these damage buffs (because the traitting on the CC line already reduces your DPS by almost half).

Be happy that you only need 1 bow

We have 3 options:
Fire Stone, Lightning Stone and mixed Stone (that doesn´t even allow us to max all 4 important DPS Legacies, FoS Dmg, FoS Crit, Fire Dmg, Fire DoT)

We need a Healing Satchel too, have fun building 3 FA with T8 Relics..

Originally Posted by Thruili

For those of you thinking that nothing changes for Hunters with U7 have a look:



Blood Arrow and Split Shot now change their damagetype when Fire-oil is applied.

Can't wait. Is there a change also with Light Oil? (I haven't had time to jump on Bullroarer for awhile.)

I agree with previous posts that say hunters should be more robust, with better survivability. One of the very few things I dislike about my hunter is the recovery time between mobs. I mostly play solo, and it takes me at least twice as long to get through an area as it does any other class I play. I have decent gear, lots of ICR and OOCR gear and traiting, too.

Maybe it's just the way I play.

Take an equally geared assailment warden against an equally geared hunter. Have both spar standing still.

See result.

Laugh out loud.