Thread: Developer Diary Feedback: Revisiting the Mines of Moria (First Half)

A bit torn on this.

On one hand, I love Moria. More quests means more time spent there. I'm also happy that they're going to make more use of areas that currently see little to no use, areas of which there actually are quite a few.

On the other hand, I love Moria. Though I appreciate some streamlining, as with everything it can be overdone; I do hope Moria still feels dangerous after the revamp. I admit I'm not entirely fond of making the place brighter, as I thought the darkness added a lot to the atmosphere; I find the Foundations of Stone to be one of the more immersive places in the game, and seeing the outlines of some creature moving in the darkness beyond my position can be genuinely spooky.

Either way, I'm excited to get my next character into Moria and experience it anew.

I put several alts through the Moria. I might as well be minority here but I like Moria to be non-friendly, maze-like, dangerous and devoid of safe places and helpful people just like it was in the books. Because this was about the only landscape that gave some sense of exploration, achievement and wonder. I like it that way. 21st Hall actually was a beacon of hope in the darkness.

Now, with all those little camps and lamps and shiny, friendly, safe stuff, it probably be a tourist tour, not an epic(ish) experience worth of something. Yes, new Moria is streamlined, more comfortable probably. Up to the point of Dunland when I actually felt asleep in questing because it was so extremely boring/linear/predictable/safe.

With each passing revamp the landscape/questing loses the sense of epic. I regret to see that Moria is going that route.

Devs could have just added fast route from 21st to Orc-Watch and be done with it. Cleaning odd quest vectors is fine but instead of making quest system less depending on quest-giving npcs (so objectives unfolds as you progress through the quest), you just add more quest npcs.

Oh wow. I mean, like, wow! You cannot even come close to imagining how thrilled I am with these changes. My two main alts (does that even make sense?) were created when I hit Moria and I'm so glad I won't struggle anymore.

My big question is: when the rest of Moria being revamped?

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

[...]when the rest of Moria being revamped?

When they get around to it. I would guess within the next year or so.

Some of this I like some of this I don't.

I have just finished taking a Champ through Moria after having done it on 5 other characters spaced over a fairly wide period of time, and the only things I didn't like is the back and forth quest types, and the fact that the Epic doesn't seem to tie in with progression through the current hubs in any way. Will look forward to the time wasting running round kind of thing being gone next time around for sure, but as to brightening the place up.... why oh why should Moria be bright. Gandalf gets lost here, it's supposed to be dark and confusing. Adding new stable routes and swift travles should have been enough in my opinion, will have to wait and see once it goes live, but I live in fear of it being turned into a fairy wonderland grove as opposed to how it is now.

I usually poke into Moria as far as Dovlen View at 47 in the process of getting my secondary legendary item, but leave it to 50 before I go in to stay due to the level 50 requirements for deeds, so the downward move for these to 47 seems pretty much spot on to me, I usually prefer being slight under level to the mobs as it keeps things a little more interesting. Which leeds me to my next point....

Having gone into moria at 50 on said Champ, he's hit level 60 just today having done the bare minimum of quests in each hub to complete deeds before moving on to the next for Redhorn, Waterworks and Foundation of Stone. Has barely touched Zelem Melek quests, only done 1 quest in Eastern Durins, not completed most slayer deeds, and not done about half of the Epic yet. Haven't raided or skirmished. Really can't understand the need for extra quests, and infact wish that there was a way to turn XP gain off, because with Lorien, Mirkwood and (with the recent changes) Enedwaith now in front of him, all in the 60-65 range, will have to skip huge chunks or hit Dunland way over level. I'm by no means a completionist, but I pity those who are these days as it must be getting to be very dull fighting grey mobs most of the time.

Variety of choice for leveling is all well and good, but with the Epic line taking you through areas you would now otherwise be completly skipping, it actually gets to be annoying doing the Epic line, as it becomes the running around rather than the quests. This is fine if you happen to be playing alt number xx, but for those playing through the game for the first time, and wanting to experience the whole story, it must be somewhat less than immersive to have to leave large chunks of the game unplayed if you want to stay on level with the Epic as you progress. I'm not sure how this could be resolved short of an XP toggle (or heaven forbid, maybe being able to push more xp to your LI's and less to yourself *wish mode on*), but maybe future filler areas for level capped toons should have a seperate line of story to the Epic, so that if / when the cap raises again, they can be skipped on future characters without affecting the Epic line?

Anyway, rambled off topic now, just my 2 cents worth.

Please give me an option to turn the lights down again..

Personally, I dont consider content to be more "epic" just because one has to go back and forth ALL the time, for miniscule tasks. Especially considering the stupid travel connections that pretty much leave the entire "southern" part off the charts. I dont think its a hallmark of quality design when you have to cross back and forth multiple zones just to do and hand in basic quests. When the preferred method of travel is jumping to death from Crossroads and respawning in the Water Works, something is wrong here. Moria is in many ways like Angmar and the end of Volume I; its an endgame region designed to challenge and eat time.

But this is not the reality of the game anymore, the reality now is: it is a mid-level region that few people will stay in for each and every quest on-level. Like Angmar before, Moria is simply a place now that a lot of people will want to pass through until they can visit other places. But unlike Angmar, it is not possible without consequences to skip Moria/Lothlorien entirely or even in sizable chunks, because it is the only on-level place for a big level range, because it is the ONLY way to Lorhlorien and Mirkwood, and because so many things are gated by epic quest completion and Iron Garrison reputation.

The modest makeover reflects this changed nature of the region in terms of game progression. From what I´ve seen on BR, I dont find it too formulaic, just a bit smoother. This is not a new Dunland. Lastly, if we´re honest, the normal progression we have now of... leave everything standing once you hit 45 to start the LI intro, get ancient dwarf damage, go to Sarnur for the goat, dabble a bit in Dolvenview and Silvertine for the first levels until you´re ready to start the 21st Hall instance quest lines... is extremely formulaic as well.

The thing is, you can still CHOOSE to get the full Moria experience if you are inclined to do so. But if your objective is to get out the other side, which is a perfectly fine objective, you can now do this a bit faster, easier and arguably more enjoyable.

New quests will guide you to places like the Vault of Durin or to Shemeldurj, instead of you missing them entirely because you didn’t happen to stumble across them.

Sigh.

Heaven forbid people have to actually go exploring to finish their explorer deeds. Let's just have a bunch of quests send you right to each place.

What Vandervahn said. ^^^^

Plus, as much as I would've liked to see a Trollshaws revamp before a Moria revamp, Turbine made the correct choice for the long-term health of their game. If the Moria revamp really does help retain players, I'm glad for it.

(Note: This doesn't mean I'd support ANY change that's pitched as helping to attract or retain players!)

I'm so happy to see Moria getting some much-needed attention. I started playing a few months before the Moria expansion, and it holds a special place in my heart. Many friendships were formed in those dark halls as we ventured into the unknown together.

However, questing through Moria has always been a challenge. I've brought 5 characters all the way through it, and two others are still stuck there. Getting from place to place has always been horrible. I still can't navigate straight to Orc-Watch or Anazarmekham from DV or the 21st hall. I always get to them from the Waterworks or FoS to get the travel points the first time. So, I'm very happy to see more goat routes and clearly marked paths to get from place to place. I hope they also add more travel routes between Moria and the outside world. Before Lothlorien was added, the only way to get out of Moria was to physically walk out the door!

I'm also very happy to see more quest hubs added and the quests streamlined. It's definitely a drag to fight your way to a quest location, fight your way through the quest mobs, and fight your way back to the quest hub just to find out you have to go there again for something you easily could have done the first time around. I'm hoping that they've thinned out the mobs standing around in hallways for no reason other than get in your way when you are trying to do other things. I'm fine with fighting through a camp for an objective, but the extra trash mobs wandering around are just annoying. Everyone just runs through them anyway.

Finally, I'm glad that they aren't doing anything to really change the actual space. It is an absolutely awe-inspiring place. I don't mind that it's a huge maze or that it is dark. It makes it what it is. I love all the little nooks and crannies and the stories that are told about each one of them. You really get to understand the dwarves and their amazing underground civilization. You feel their pride in what they once accomplished, and also their pain in having lost it. I'm looking forward to exploring the new-and-improved Moria (or at least the first half of it).

Oh yea, also wanted to mention that I'm also against those super-linear quest lines, it just feels awkward to be close on someone's heels for hours because you HAVE to to the quests in exactly the same order as anyone else...

Dunland clearly pushed it too far, you can't even have more than 3-4 quests in your log most of the time, you simply can't get any more...short ways and smooth story lines is okay, no choice where to adventure first because there is really only one story line is not okay though.

Don't mind the quest/content changes at all. The real problem is that they have made Silvertine Lodes

(and to a lesser extent, other areas) positively day-glo now. . .







Here's a video transposing live servers' lighting over the new brighter lighting on Bullroarer a few

times.



More discussion of the lighting change and the resulting loss of "Morianess"

here.

--H

Hm...the current lighting in Moria is defenitely too dark overall (guess on a CRT monitor there's many places where you'd wonder if your computer is broken, luckily most have the much brighter LCDs now).

But I was hoping they were able to put some more contrast into it, making the dark corners really look gloomy and eerie compared to the brighter ones.
From those images it looks not all that much better than cranking up environment lighting or gamma, which most of us did anyway.

It somehow still gives a washed out environment that strains the eyes with lack of contrast.
(and no, my PVA display is among the best LCDs when it comes to contrast, so that is certainly not the problem)

Originally Posted by Lynx3d

Hm...the current lighting in Moria is defenitely too dark overall (guess on a CRT monitor there's many places where you'd wonder if your computer is broken, luckily most have the much brighter LCDs now).

For the record, I played Moria (and the ensuing years until about six months ago) on the gold standard of CRTs (and monitors in general), the Sony GDM-FW900 (24" widescreen CRT!). Yes, while LCDs are "brighter" they are artificially so and generally wash out shadow detail and cannot render true black. Even the highest end LCD suffers from these limitations relative to CRTs (though, LCDs have their own benefits vs CRTs).

Moria looked incredible on that CRT. Yes, it was dark. But that's how it was designed to look. Black was black. Dark was dark. . . but with the shades drawn or playing at night in a darkened room, it was still very enjoyable. During the day with the room flooded with sun, I did have to increase gamma (prior to the introduction of the ambient light slider), but I never held that against a game that was merely rendering the environment as described in the books. I loved it all the more because it was so faithful to the source material.

As I said elsewhere, darkness and gloom are the sine que non of Khazud-Dum. Without them, it's just another zone. And with this brightening and the others that have taken place over the years (removal of dynamic lighting in most zones, etc.), its fundamental "Morianess" seems to be gone.

--H

Originally Posted by Zelxyb

I'm not sure what to make of this yet, but I've been fearing the worst about ultra-linear-no-skipping quest flow (like in Dunland and the Great River). This line made me feel a bit easier about things:

"If you’re more of a reckless explorer type, that’s OK too. New quest hubs are open for business, even if you didn’t finish the one before. We won’t actively direct you there until the quests of the previous hub are finished, but no dwarf will turn you away if you wander up to take a gander at his quest ring."

Hurm. Maybe. I feel that the reason that Moria is so polarizing is it is quintessential "old school" design. It's a dungeon with lots of danger and little things to explore, a couple hidden gems, a bunch of pointless dead ends, plenty of places to get lost or just fall to your death. It doesn't really hold your hand too much...

The ultra linear stuff is more of a "roller coaster" design. The quests take you to every corner of the map. There's very little need to explore, you'll get there by following the big silver arrows in the sky anyway. Heck, exploring is actively discouraged because wandering off the beaten path means that you likely missed that quest giver standing right in the middle of said path. What's the point of exploring then? They even removed the shard droppers, so there's not even those to find anymore.

I feel that a lot of what made Moria fun IS the stuff that can be considered inconvenience to others... because it made the area feel like a giant inhospitable cave full of things that are trying to kill you. Really, the more linear design philosophies started to take hold with Mirkwood; didn't anyone else walk around the overland area of Barad Guldur, supposedly one of the strongest bastions of enemy power, and say "this is an absolute joke?"

I suppose adding new quests in Moria couldn't be a bad thing, as long as they don't overdo it. Another option COULD be to re-adjust the xp of some of the existing quests, however... Trimming some of the quest chains that send you back to the same camp 2-4 times could only be "of the good".

I get nervous when they say that they're thinning out the mob count though... I feel that it trades atmosphere for convenience, and throwing a 5-lane highway down the middle of Moria like they did to Mirkwood is exactly the type of thing that makes all the linear areas seem so... stupid and lifeless... to me.

Originally Posted by Vilan

Sigh.

Heaven forbid people have to actually go exploring to finish their explorer deeds. Let's just have a bunch of quests send you right to each place.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't really explore when I wanted to finish those deeds anyway. I went to the wiki and looked up the coordinates after everything in Moria went gray.

Happy about the changes, they seem to address the issues that currently make a lot of players skip moria: uneven levelling experience and a lot of errand-boy quests that require you to go over and over and over again to the same orc encampment for different reasons. In the current implementation, moria is the place you explore once with your main, and always skip with your alts. It seems the changes will not ruin the first time experience, while encourage some replay of the landscape content, not the instances only.

However the 2nd half of moria is the place that needs this kind of refactor more, far more than the 1st half. If places like zelem melek, nud melek and foundations of stone are left like now, people will still level till 56 in moria then run to lothlorien, they will just leave eregion alone and start questing in moria at 50 instead of 53. The last alt I leveled, a guardian, I made a point to level in Moria instead of run out to lothlorien. I gave up at 57 due to frustration with the place and running over and over between 21st and balin's last camp. So in my opinion and from my playing experience, the 2nd part is the real demotivator in the whole place.

The lighting has never been a problem for me, just turn up ambient light at 0.30 and you are set. What I REALLY would like not to see again are those shadow bugs that plagued the whole place a couple of year ago, so if you play with lighting, do it well!

I've never had more fun in my life playing video games than all the time I spent in Moria from its release until now. I have to say that what I liked best was the total atmospheric immersion that they created as a result of great music, awesome ambient sound effects like rock chips fracturing from somewhere off in the gloom and bounding down a rock surface, and most of all the lighting effects were tremendous. You sometimes had to just stop and gaze in awe out over the landscape because the lighting effects created such a feeling of hulking space stretching out before you. If they have lessened this, I feel sorry for those gamers that come along after this re-touch who won't get to experience this for themselves.

~Thorolf

Originally Posted by G_Jetson

You sometimes had to just stop and gaze in awe out over the landscape because the lighting effects created such a feeling of hulking space stretching out before you. If they have lessened this, I feel sorry for those gamers that come along after this re-touch who won't get to experience this for themselves.

Unfortunately, this is just the final nail in Moria's coffin where darkness/gloom and atmosphere are concerned.

When Moria was first released, the Great Delving had great dynamic DX10 lighting effects. A few months later, they just disappeared and the lighting in that region became static.

So, one's first steps into Moria used to be dark indeed, with dynamic shadows cast by a dynamic lightsource that you "carried." Now, you walk in and it's just lit from above with no dynamic shadows. After the changes currently on Bullroarer go live, it will be even worse.

Here's a video of what The Great Delving used to look like upon Moria's original release (the title refers to Vol 2, not Vol 3). . .



--H

Originally Posted by Frieja

That's a really good point, RJFerret. I was wondering about this myself. Why would they add quests when there are already more than enough to get you to 60?

Because it's too crazy. Hear me out. There are maybe 5 level 51 quests in Durin's Threshhold. Those quests will give you pointers to Dolven View and Chamber of Crossroads.

That would be okay. But CoC has quests of its own, and at the same time points you to Silvertine Lodes, the Waterworks, and the Batcave up towards Jazzy, whilst DV has quests of its own and points you to Deep Descent and 21st Hall, and back to CoC (I think). You're also apt to pick up level 56 or 57 quest items sending you off in other directions when you're doing quests in DV.

In other words you find yourself questing in about 6 different zones at 52 in completely random order (I'm not opposed to random, but it is a bit much here, especially since some of the quests and quest items you're getting are anywhere from dark blue to red). The individual zones really don't have that many quests in them, it's all the chained stuff that adds up, and it gets fairly crazy making.

In my opinion, these changes won't make Moria loved by the people who hate it, but will ruin it for the people who loved it.

A lot of people just hate being in an underground, maze-like environment for a long period of time. They hate it for getting lost in, they hate it for falling down, they hate it for the lighting, and they always will.

The only change you can make to make it better is that they have to spend less time in it. They are the ones who push to 54 outside in Eriador and then rush to Lorien at 56. Don't try to make Moria something it's not and shouldn't be for these people - just give them an alternate leveling path, and leave Moria alone. Create a region that handles levels 51-58 or so and you'll be fine. Make it a beautiful outdoor area - I recommend the Gladden Fields which should be accessed via the Misty Mountains.

Moria is why i came back to the game after an absence, Moria is why I told all my friends they needed to play LOTRO, Moria is still in my opinion unmatched by any content any other MMO has come out with - among Rift, WoW, and SWTOR no area is more immersive, or impressive. You're making a mistake by toning it down, brightening it up, and filling it with more friendlies. Don't give it the "Old Forest" treatment.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

The reason I bring this up, is I have two characters approaching Moria with friends. I find it odd, with the current super-fast leveling with all the XP quests give you, that MORE quests were added. Now obviously more content is appreciated, but a method to not out-level areas so rapidly would be lovely. I'd much rather be entering Redhorn Lodes at 55, if I had known I'd be out-leveling everything, I guess the solution is to skip entire sections?

One critical thing has changed in Moria since release:

Release Notes 4.1
General

Quest XP rewards for higher level quests (level 53+) have been adjusted going forwards. Quest XP had been gradually declining by level, which wasn't the intent at higher levels.

I leveled a mini from`40 to 70 a some months back, and the above change is a drastic difference. I seriously gained levels faster in the RoI content than I did in Eregion. I did a full run through Moria purely for nostalgia, but Shadowed Refuge was 5 levels below me before I even touched it.

I'm willing to bet that the dev's quantitative data is telling them that people are skipping Moria, but I'm willing to bet that the changes from the patch note above are the why. If that's the case, then adding new quests won't help much.

Originally Posted by Armaius

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't really explore when I wanted to finish those deeds anyway. I went to the wiki and looked up the coordinates after everything in Moria went gray.

That seems kinda dull to me. If you want to, hey. I just hope there's something left for us explorers to do.

We're adding a bunch of small quest hubs so that people don't have to spend a minute walking to get to the quest objective? Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous? I understand a lot of the things brought up and suggested, (changing the lighting, making the quests a bit more straightforward, adding a couple hubs where the aren't any) but the only major problem with Moria is the difficulty of finding your way, not the amount of time it takes to get from point A to point B. It would be like putting a ranger camp right outside of the orc camp in ND, it doesn't fit, and is unnecessary.

Have now tried the current state of things on Bullroarer and IMO the revamp is taking us even further down the linear / hold your hand path than Dunland did. Not only are there mini quest hubs every 200 meters, but the quest given out by a lot of them are so inane - mine 6 groundspawns in a mob free area - collect 8 groundspawns in a mostly mob free area - kill 15 mobs who have had ther morale halved and are packed into a small area, while also (shock) mining 8 groundspawns to complete a seperate quest.

Just to make sure you don't get lost, we'll close off alternate routes between areas - no more going out the back of Gamil Filik to get to waterworks, or going through the Gredbyg tunnel to get to Durins vault, its all been changed so that you have little "pockets" of Moria. Unless closing these areas off is somehow helping with rendering (possible as don't have to load in textures for areas can no longer get to) this actually makes it harder for people playing through on subsequent characters as they've lost their shortcuts and at the same time makes the place feel smaller. The way the quests in these areas played out for me, there was no chance of reaching the ends of these areas before completing the quest requirements, so only those that wanted to explore would be contiuning on, those that were doing completed quests as fast as you can method had no reason to wander on and get lost anyway.

Most of the lighting I can live with as its been fairly subtle, but Silvertine not only now glows brighter than a moonlit night above ground, but it's a real eyestrain with the glowing blue air so bright that the darker areas of screen that you are actually trying to look at are hard to see - the best analogy I can give is to driving at that time just after sunset when the sky is brighter than the road and makes it difficult to concentrate on the road. I think the people doing this work need to do some testing in a brightly lit room as well as in darker enclosed offices, as I hadn't spent more than 10 minutes in here before it was seriously beginning to annoy my eyes - and I usually play four hour sessions without noticing anything like this.

Friendly-a-fying Moria step number one (already commented several times in this thread) would have I thought included more fast travel stable route changes, not one of which I came across. The fact that I just took a toon through the area on live during the festival really highlighted the fact that once your in Moria, your travel options just about vanish as far as getting back to other parts of the game - there is not a single travel option to areas preceding Moria, not even a slow travel to Echad Dunnan from Durins Threshold. I didn't get to take a look at the Epic line yet, but unless it has been changed I'm betting people will still be setting their bind point to Crossroads / 21st to save the tedious back and forth that having no swift travels from most destinations currently calls for, so using that method to leave Moria is pretty much out. Having some swift travel routes within Moria, gated by area quest deed completion would be fine even, especially with the quests in each area being more abundant. This would then leave you the option to bind elsewhere.

As I posted elsewhere, the revamp of Evendim was great... I specifically downloaded Bullroarer to try this out, after having just taken a character through on live, to test it out and see if the revamp was anywhere near as good as there. My current feel for the new Moria is that the content is being spoon fed to an imbecile - being able to teleport into the back of the cave to do the deadfall quest, then teleport back to the quest giver via a, what was it?, "hidden cave"? from a quest giver that had already been moved most of the way towards the quest objective felt positively lame, especially with autoprompts popping up on screen to remind you that you could port right back to him. WoW (pun intended) thats immersive. The signposting dead ends quest truly got me wondering if the Dev creating it was being sarcastic about the level of hand holding they were being forced to implement.

Anyway, thats my feedback feedback, dunno if anyones listenting tho ;p

Originally Posted by Fred2011

Just to make sure you don't get lost, we'll close off alternate routes between areas - no more going out the back of Gamil Filik to get to waterworks, or going through the Gredbyg tunnel to get to Durins vault, its all been changed so that you have little "pockets" of Moria. Unless closing these areas off is somehow helping with rendering (possible as don't have to load in textures for areas can no longer get to) this actually makes it harder for people playing through on subsequent characters as they've lost their shortcuts and at the same time makes the place feel smaller. The way the quests in these areas played out for me, there was no chance of reaching the ends of these areas before completing the quest requirements, so only those that wanted to explore would be contiuning on, those that were doing completed quests as fast as you can method had no reason to wander on and get lost anyway.

Friendly-a-fying Moria step number one (already commented several times in this thread) would have I thought included more fast travel stable route changes, not one of which I came across. The fact that I just took a toon through the area on live during the festival really highlighted the fact that once your in Moria, your travel options just about vanish as far as getting back to other parts of the game - there is not a single travel option to areas preceding Moria, not even a slow travel to Echad Dunnan from Durins Threshold. I didn't get to take a look at the Epic line yet, but unless it has been changed I'm betting people will still be setting their bind point to Crossroads / 21st to save the tedious back and forth that having no swift travels from most destinations currently calls for, so using that method to leave Moria is pretty much out. Having some swift travel routes within Moria, gated by area quest deed completion would be fine even, especially with the quests in each area being more abundant. This would then leave you the option to bind elsewhere.

As I posted elsewhere, the revamp of Evendim was great... I specifically downloaded Bullroarer to try this out, after having just taken a character through [Moria] on live, to test it out and see if the revamp was anywhere near as good as there. My current feel for the new Moria is that the content is being spoon fed to an imbecile - being able to teleport into the back of the cave to do the deadfall quest, then teleport back to the quest giver via a, what was it?, "hidden cave"? from a quest giver that had already been moved most of the way towards the quest objective felt positively lame, especially with autoprompts popping up on screen to remind you that you could port right back to him. WoW (pun intended) thats immersive. The signposting dead ends quest truly got me wondering if the Dev creating it was being sarcastic about the level of hand holding they were being forced to implement.

Anyway, thats my feedback feedback, dunno if anyones listenting tho ;p

Originally Posted by Chanah

Because it's too crazy.

In other words you find yourself questing in about 6 different zones at 52 in completely random order (I'm not opposed to random, but it is a bit much here, especially since some of the quests and quest items you're getting are anywhere from dark blue to red). The individual zones really don't have that many quests in them, it's all the chained stuff that adds up, and it gets fairly crazy making.

KaiusIn my opinion, these changes won't make Moria loved by the people who hate it, but will ruin it for the people who loved it.

A lot of people just hate being in an underground, maze-like environment for a long period of time. They hate it for getting lost in, they hate it for falling down, they hate it for the lighting, and they always will.

The only change you can make to make it better is that they have to spend less time in it. They are the ones who push to 54 outside in Eriador and then rush to Lorien at 56. Don't try to make Moria something it's not and shouldn't be for these people - just give them an alternate leveling path, and leave Moria alone. Create a region that handles levels 51-58 or so and you'll be fine. Make it a beautiful outdoor area - I recommend the Gladden Fields which should be accessed via the Misty Mountains.

Moria is why i came back to the game after an absence, Moria is why I told all my friends they needed to play LOTRO, Moria is still in my opinion unmatched by any content any other MMO has come out with - among Rift, WoW, and SWTOR no area is more immersive, or impressive. You're making a mistake by toning it down, brightening it up, and filling it with more friendlies. Don't give it the "Old Forest" treatment.

Originally Posted by scrubmonkey

Hurm. Maybe. I feel that the reason that Moria is so polarizing is it is quintessential "old school" design. It's a dungeon with lots of danger and little things to explore, a couple hidden gems, a bunch of pointless dead ends, plenty of places to get lost or just fall to your death. It doesn't really hold your hand too much...

The ultra linear stuff is more of a "roller coaster" design. The quests take you to every corner of the map. There's very little need to explore, you'll get there by following the big silver arrows in the sky anyway. Heck, exploring is actively discouraged because wandering off the beaten path means that you likely missed that quest giver standing right in the middle of said path. What's the point of exploring then? They even removed the shard droppers, so there's not even those to find anymore.

I feel that a lot of what made Moria fun IS the stuff that can be considered inconvenience to others... because it made the area feel like a giant inhospitable cave full of things that are trying to kill you. Really, the more linear design philosophies started to take hold with Mirkwood; didn't anyone else walk around the overland area of Barad Guldur, supposedly one of the strongest bastions of enemy power, and say "this is an absolute joke?"

I suppose adding new quests in Moria couldn't be a bad thing, as long as they don't overdo it. Another option COULD be to re-adjust the xp of some of the existing quests, however... Trimming some of the quest chains that send you back to the same camp 2-4 times could only be "of the good".

I get nervous when they say that they're thinning out the mob count though... I feel that it trades atmosphere for convenience, and throwing a 5-lane highway down the middle of Moria like they did to Mirkwood is exactly the type of thing that makes all the linear areas seem so... stupid and lifeless... to me.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Personally, I dont consider content to be more "epic" just because one has to go back and forth ALL the time, for miniscule tasks. Especially considering the stupid travel connections that pretty much leave the entire "southern" part off the charts. I dont think its a hallmark of quality design when you have to cross back and forth multiple zones just to do and hand in basic quests. When the preferred method of travel is jumping to death from Crossroads and respawning in the Water Works, something is wrong here. Moria is in many ways like Angmar and the end of Volume I; its an endgame region designed to challenge and eat time.

But this is not the reality of the game anymore, the reality now is: it is a mid-level region that few people will stay in for each and every quest on-level. Like Angmar before, Moria is simply a place now that a lot of people will want to pass through until they can visit other places. But unlike Angmar, it is not possible without consequences to skip Moria/Lothlorien entirely or even in sizable chunks, because it is the only on-level place for a big level range, because it is the ONLY way to Lorhlorien and Mirkwood, and because so many things are gated by epic quest completion and Iron Garrison reputation.

The modest makeover reflects this changed nature of the region in terms of game progression. From what I´ve seen on BR, I dont find it too formulaic, just a bit smoother. This is not a new Dunland. Lastly, if we´re honest, the normal progression we have now of... leave everything standing once you hit 45 to start the LI intro, get ancient dwarf damage, go to Sarnur for the goat, dabble a bit in Dolvenview and Silvertine for the first levels until you´re ready to start the 21st Hall instance quest lines... is extremely formulaic as well.

The thing is, you can still CHOOSE to get the full Moria experience if you are inclined to do so. But if your objective is to get out the other side, which is a perfectly fine objective, you can now do this a bit faster, easier and arguably more enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Fred2011

Some of this I like some of this I don't.

I have just finished taking a Champ through Moria after having done it on 5 other characters spaced over a fairly wide period of time, and the only things I didn't like is the back and forth quest types, and the fact that the Epic doesn't seem to tie in with progression through the current hubs in any way. Will look forward to the time wasting running round kind of thing being gone next time around for sure, but as to brightening the place up.... why oh why should Moria be bright. Gandalf gets lost here, it's supposed to be dark and confusing. Adding new stable routes and swift travles should have been enough in my opinion, will have to wait and see once it goes live, but I live in fear of it being turned into a fairy wonderland grove as opposed to how it is now.

I usually poke into Moria as far as Dovlen View at 47 in the process of getting my secondary legendary item, but leave it to 50 before I go in to stay due to the level 50 requirements for deeds, so the downward move for these to 47 seems pretty much spot on to me, I usually prefer being slight under level to the mobs as it keeps things a little more interesting. Which leeds me to my next point....

Having gone into moria at 50 on said Champ, he's hit level 60 just today having done the bare minimum of quests in each hub to complete deeds before moving on to the next for Redhorn, Waterworks and Foundation of Stone. Has barely touched Zelem Melek quests, only done 1 quest in Eastern Durins, not completed most slayer deeds, and not done about half of the Epic yet. Haven't raided or skirmished. Really can't understand the need for extra quests, and infact wish that there was a way to turn XP gain off, because with Lorien, Mirkwood and (with the recent changes) Enedwaith now in front of him, all in the 60-65 range, will have to skip huge chunks or hit Dunland way over level. I'm by no means a completionist, but I pity those who are these days as it must be getting to be very dull fighting grey mobs most of the time.

Variety of choice for leveling is all well and good, but with the Epic line taking you through areas you would now otherwise be completly skipping, it actually gets to be annoying doing the Epic line, as it becomes the running around rather than the quests. This is fine if you happen to be playing alt number xx, but for those playing through the game for the first time, and wanting to experience the whole story, it must be somewhat less than immersive to have to leave large chunks of the game unplayed if you want to stay on level with the Epic as you progress. I'm not sure how this could be resolved short of an XP toggle (or heaven forbid, maybe being able to push more xp to your LI's and less to yourself *wish mode on*), but maybe future filler areas for level capped toons should have a seperate line of story to the Epic, so that if / when the cap raises again, they can be skipped on future characters without affecting the Epic line?

Originally Posted by Paralax

I put several alts through the Moria. I might as well be minority here but I like Moria to be non-friendly, maze-like, dangerous and devoid of safe places and helpful people just like it was in the books. Because this was about the only landscape that gave some sense of exploration, achievement and wonder. I like it that way. 21st Hall actually was a beacon of hope in the darkness.

Now, with all those little camps and lamps and shiny, friendly, safe stuff, it probably be a tourist tour, not an epic(ish) experience worth of something. Yes, new Moria is streamlined, more comfortable probably. Up to the point of Dunland when I actually felt asleep in questing because it was so extremely boring/linear/predictable/safe.

With each passing revamp the landscape/questing loses the sense of epic. I regret to see that Moria is going that route.

Devs could have just added fast route from 21st to Orc-Watch and be done with it. Cleaning odd quest vectors is fine but instead of making quest system less depending on quest-giving npcs (so objectives unfolds as you progress through the quest), you just add more quest npcs.

Originally Posted by Macfeast

On one hand, I love Moria. More quests means more time spent there. I'm also happy that they're going to make more use of areas that currently see little to no use, areas of which there actually are quite a few.

On the other hand, I love Moria. Though I appreciate some streamlining, as with everything it can be overdone; I do hope Moria still feels dangerous after the revamp. I admit I'm not entirely fond of making the place brighter, as I thought the darkness added a lot to the atmosphere; I find the Foundations of Stone to be one of the more immersive places in the game, and seeing the outlines of some creature moving in the darkness beyond my position can be genuinely spooky.

Originally Posted by winterfern

"Moria stands in the way of a new character reaching our end-game content, and we want the 1-75 experience to go smoothly for new people as the game gets bigger."

I am filled with dread when a developer starts talking about their levelling content as if it were an obstacle to the game, rather than part of it. This is the exact same philosophy that led to Blizzard turning the 1-60 game in WoW into an ultra-linear guided tour exercise in hand holding devoid of anything resembling exploration, adventure or challenge.

You've got a cash shop - if people want to get to 75 quicker [a second time] then SELL them a lvl 50 or 60 or 75 character. Or create an alternate levelling path for those who want to skip the 'difficult' bits. Don't ruin the levelling experience for the rest of us.

I don't want a well-lit, easy to navigate Moria. That seems to defeat the entire point of the place. Even Gandalf lost his way in there at times.

Originally Posted by wikjif

I don't think that it is because it is hard for most people but because of how Moria tries to send you everywhere at the same time and they don't want to deal with it so they get in as late as possible and leave as early as possible to spend as little time as possible inside Moria.

I don't think Turbine heard you, so I wanted to make sure Turbine got some repetition to help their memory of what to scale down from bullroarer.


http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-will-cheer%29
Better solution than permanently changing the ambient lighting is to simply have a helpful tooltip pop up illustrating how to use the ambient lighting slider ALREADY IN THE GAME. Why are you reinventing the wheel? You already have design in place to deal with the issues players report, you just need to make it more accessible to new players. Lighting paths is different, and I applaud that step.


Please, please, please do not lose sight of the primary adjectives of Moria: Dark, dangerous, maze-like. Removing monsters from paths between quest hubs while incresing the number of quest hubs doesn't sound like Moria to me. I understand the desire to improve the flow from 1-75, especially with 85 coming up, but all indications show you've gone overboard. Instead of adding a bunch more quests, you could have designed quests with additional objectives that appeared as you moved through it (tons of examples of this already in game). Improving the quest flow and adding depth to zones is obviously something we'd all like - but you're making it too much of an escalator ride.

I think that having zones tied to individual factions make people more likely to skip whole zones, which raises the question of if you are designing content for half of it to be skipped over. As people and devs have already pointed out, it is not a lack of quest xp in Moria - it is that the quests have too much repetition and lack focus/direction. With the addition of tasks, you're just asking people to run through the first half of Moria revamp, completely skip Lothlorien, and go straight to farming Sauramon ASAP.

Well, As a semi-experienced player who has been through Moria nearing 10 times now.... I have to agree with the most verbose of the responses, especially one of the most recent ones.... that Moria is meant to be huge, dark, expansive, confusing, dangerous, etc.

I would say that having more quests is not a bad thing, nor having task boards, etc. However, if anything needs a revamp, it would be to allow the "explorer" type to be more rewarded for their efforts. Having lamps here and there to help people get the general idea of where they are going is good, too, however, I would say that MOST of Moria is meant to appear dangerously unexplored.

Instead of adding additional quest hubs, what about revamping some of the content to help people get around better (like decent directions to get to the water works, or clearer text in how to maneuver from Durin's Threshold to the Great Delving so people don't wander around aimlessly).

Also, a good idea might be to have a few more NPCs in the big areas that focus people in corners of the bigger areas. For example, at the Rotting Cellar, have a guy that has 3 quests that focus in the south-west corner only. I realize some of this is already done, but perhaps some subtler changes might be useful.

That's my .02 coppers.

I do wonder at the blocking off of certain paths. What is the reasoning behind doing so? Were there really people so confused by having multiple routes between places?

If people need their hands held to get from point A to point B, fine - provide them with the guideposts that they need, but don't eliminate all other routes as well.

Blocking off certain paths - now this I do not like one bit if it's true. If some folks complained that they get lost or if you think some could get lost, use signposts or guides or whatever.
Too many and too easy quests in new hubs isn't a huge problem because they can be skiped.

I've taken three toons through Moria and fourth is half-way done. I admit I disliked it the first time but started to really like it the second time. Now I love it. But by the sound of it, I woun't be visiting the same Moria after update. Two main concerns for me so far are too much light and possibility that certain paths get blocked. Why not just point out to anyone who enters Moria for the first time to raise their ambient light settings? Yes, without this it was REALLY dark and frustrating. But with correct settings it's really good.

I want to +rep Lestache's post #14 and RJFerret's post #15, but I need to spread more rep before I can give it to either. sigh.

Originally Posted by Vilan

Sigh.

Heaven forbid people have to actually go exploring to finish their explorer deeds. Let's just have a bunch of quests send you right to each place.

this is one thing that really annoys me about the Great River region, which I otherwise love, that the explorer deed is basically autocompleted just by doing quests. that is very unfortunate IMO, and I long for exploration deeds like the ruins in the North Downs or Trollshaws. the Evendim revamp also took this unfortunate course, now Moria follows as for another new, unfortunate similarity between those two zones, while I like the new Evendim quests, the plain fact is that there are just too many now. it was already impossible not to outlevel content, and it gets harder and harder with each update. stop it already Turbine!!!

ETA: also, many people have mentioned more swift travels. personally, I wish there were LESS swift travels, and less stable routes in general in the entire game. Moria doesn't need any more, though one swift travel from 21st or Durin's Threshold to a place before Moria, as one poster suggested above, would not necessarily be amiss.

Haven't read anything (sorry if I miss it) if characters who already completed Moria quests will be able to do these new ones?.

Also this line says " Content was not deleted, but a lot was added and changed". So if I understood well new Moria runners will do the same old quests (plus the new ones) but some will have different rewards and be realocated to easy access?.
I'm asking this because I have 4 lvl50 Moria ready ones and I wish to "save" atleast one from the ruin doing the original content.

Darn im already quite far into my first ever Moria adventure...I hope I still get to do all of the quests (perhaps again ? XD)

I think that Moria had more than enough quests for leveling. With my minstrel it was pretty easy, in fact I went for a few small fellow quest solo for a bit of a challenge. Even had to totally skip part of Water Works, the second part of Jazargund and all the Flaming deeps and Foundations of Stone because she outleveled the scenery. Had to skip also Lórien and go directly to Mirkwood. I didn't like to do this because I was really enjoying Moria, it is a wonderful scenery with beautiful visuals.
Now with my Champ, after completing Epic Vol 1 and doing DV quests I'm at 56, so I'll go to Waterworks and Flaming Deeps directly, which I skipped the first time.

So, what to change from Moria? Zelem-Melek. I disliked the quests there. Pretty spread and the Ballin? chain sent you like 3 times to the same place just for 1 quest each time. Also would be nice to have scalable instances. And on the contrary to you, I found leveling there too fast to be able to do all the content.

I like it that you allow now to get the goat without rep (I've always been getting the Ale Association goat before). About the tasks, it is always nice to have them, but I think that you should have slowed leveling a bit to compensate.

BTW, I found this awkward... Riptalon a Rare Arch-Nemesis there? My minstrel found an easier rare there. When did this change?

Originally Posted by avaaescaner

BTW, I found this awkward... Riptalon a Rare Arch-Nemesis there? My minstrel found an easier rare there. When did this change?

Riptalon has always had several spawn points, one or two (I've seen him in a couple spots, but they may both be in his patrol route) of which is in the Great Delving. He also can spawn in Eastern Durin's Way (and possibly other places, but I haven't seen them myself if so). So that's not a change. In addition, many locations that can spawn shard droppers have more than one shard dropper that they can potentially spawn (not at the same time), especially in Shadows of Angmar and Mines of Moria content. So you may go by one time and find X and another time find Y in that spot. (The night before Moria launched my minstrel soloed a 20k named troll in Nan Gurth, and I parked her there hoping he would be up the next day so I could compare the changes to the minstrel class. Had a 10k orc in his place (who was actually much tougher bcs I couldn't interrupt all his heals...which led to an epicly long battle in which he couldn't kill me and I couldn't kill him until a pair of other players passed by for the 2nd or 3rd time and decided to put him - and me - out of his misery ))

Moria is an acquired taste, everyone who's been there more than couple of times learned how to appreciate its complexity and beauty, especially if one considers that the leveling after Moria is easier, much easier and less time-demanding. Somehow I always had a feeling that the game had its peak of excellence in Moria area. True, many people don't like it but I don't believe that this is the reason why they're doing the revamp. Frankly, it will be fun to have some changes just for the sake of change, and whatever people say it really doesn't matter, because the devs will implement whatever they want. The reason for this is exactly the feeling that you're struggling through Moria and afterwards it is much easier, even in Isengard (which is supposed to be a place of horror and fear, more wicked than Moria). The game should contain more dangerous and intimidating places and mobs with every expansion as we get closer to Mordor. Currently this is not the case so they decided to tune up some things. We'll see quite soon how it will look like and we can just hope for the best!

I remember when Mines of Moria was released, people were already then complaining about too much light. And I agreed then, and I agree now. It's meant to be a dark and cruel place where you have to watch your every step for falling down a chasm. Moria is meant to be packed with orcs "and fouler things", not dwarves. I admit a couple of scattered expeditionary camps would be okay, but from what I've read they're way too packed and streamlined.

I will go check Moria out, but I'm not so sure I'm gonna like it much. I'd rather you focus on new content like getting the Mounted Combat technology to work properly. Or if that's already done with, do housing. Or LI revamp. Or something. Streamlining is not a good idea if you want to build a immersive world. On the other hand, it's very good if you want someone to click their way through quests without reading the description and the story you have spent so much time on.

Okay. Before I say more, I will need to check it out myself

This is continuing the trend of destroying old game content that is perfectly good. In this case, Moria was some of the best and original content out there. You could have spent that development time on something useful, like reclaiming some of the previously destroyed game content by converting instances to scalable instances. So now Moria takes longer to get through because you changed everything around and closed off paths from one area to the next. Those that complained about Moria still won't go there, and those that liked it will no longer have access to what we liked. Stop changing the game. I don't even feel like going here anymore. And since there are four times more quests in the game now than anyone needs to level, I could easily skip the entirety of Moria. At the very least please unblock the tunnels that have been blocked up, that is just going to make travelling take longer and be more frustrating, especiailly for people that remember them being there and are unaware of the change. This is just bad, very bad. I guess I could take my 65 champ here that I havn't played for a year since they messed up all the skills and then I could be doubly frustrated not knowing any of my character's skills and not knowing my way around on the ground either. Afterall, I have unlimited time to relearn the same areas and the same skills over and over again.

Ok I visited Bullroarer and Moria.

I'm not fully agree with the new quest structure, I'm feeling old, from an age when videogame players used to have brain. But times seem are different, people need to be guided.

Since we'll have to live with it and there's no turn back, the only thing that can fix this is turn off the light again. I mean seriously, the excesive lighting is almost against the lore. Maybe in other game this would look fantastic, but not Lotro, not in Moria.

you shouldnt "revamp" good areas , you should revamp the F2P and Shop!!!