Thread: Developer Diary Feedback: Revisiting the Mines of Moria (First Half)

Moria is a beautiful, unique, amazing space. Don’t worry; we’re not changing any of that. Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Lauren “Budgeford” Salk and post your comments here!

At first I was like, don't touch my Moria! But then I was like, hey, this does sound interesting.

Can't wait to see what you've done. In my view, any reason to go back to Moria is a good one. I still believe it's the best part of the game after all this time.

Cheers guys!

The list of changes looks pretty nice. I have some characters in the 40s right now who should really benefit from them.

From the list of zones that are affected, it looks like you streamlined the leveling process from 50 to about 55. Should we expect the rest of the zones to be revamped in another update soon? Zelem-melek and the Foundations of Stone, in particular, could also use some love.

After how superbly fantastic the Evendim revamp was, I have no doubt that this will be just as good.

I especially like the idea of having little Dwarf camps spread around. Makes the 'recolonisation' aspect a bit more believeable.

I'm not sure what to make of this yet, but I've been fearing the worst about ultra-linear-no-skipping quest flow (like in Dunland and the Great River). This line made me feel a bit easier about things:

"If you’re more of a reckless explorer type, that’s OK too. New quest hubs are open for business, even if you didn’t finish the one before. We won’t actively direct you there until the quests of the previous hub are finished, but no dwarf will turn you away if you wander up to take a gander at his quest ring."

Sigh. I'm likely in the minority, but I really dislike the new linear quest flow. Yes, it's extremely convenient that there's a quest hub next to every possible objective, but it quickly becomes formulaic and extremely boring when the entire game is like this. Regardless of the quests themselves (which are significantly better and more interesting than in the old days) the entire experience becomes less of an adventure and more of a laundry list. You always know what to expect and the magic is lost.

So I'm sad the 'convenience' treatment has arrived to Moria which was my favourite area in the game. I guess I'll have to see it, but if it's anything like the newer zones I know I'm not going to like it.

So instead of scaling instances, adding new ones, or fixing server lag issues; you decide to go back and make the game even more easy-mode. There are more issues with the game to be fixed and more broader problems with lack of content and lack of scaled instances. I'm all for re-designing areas (I love the new Evendim), but at this point in time I find it ridiculous you would put so many resources into re-designing an area most players hate anyway. I would much rather you had scaled Moria instances. The server lag is driving players away from the game as well as the lack of challenging content. If you wish to remain solvent as a game in the future you need to prioritize better. Very very disappointed, but not surprised. This is just typical thought patterns of Turbine. And I'm guessing you will revamp the second half next. . . Good intentions, bad priorities. Appease your players if you wish to remain a profitable game. (Kinship Revamp Proposal would have been a much better Update as well)

Two thumbs up from me. I have a couple of characters on the threshold of Moria - looking forward to revisiting the content and seeing the changes for myself.

This sounds wonderful! I have a toon at 45 right now, so I will get to experience the revamp soon! Moria really needed some love. (I remember on my first toon once I found Dolven-view, I just stayed there doing repeatable instances until I was level 58, and then I did slayer deeds to get to 60.) I think it's great that there will be smaller quest hubs throughout, the main pathways will be lit, and it sounds like there will be more swift travels!

We have yet to see whether this will ruin the "immersion" factor, but honestly this game is geared toward people who don't have a ton of time to spend hours getting lost or having to fight through the same mobs repeatedly. The days of spending 8+ hours a day playing MMOs are gone. People just don't have that kind of time to spend on a game anymore.

I also love that the task icon has changed to a feather!

I just finished Moria on my main a few days ago. After reading the dev diary, I'm glad I got the "classic" Moria experience at least one time. And I'm also excited about experiencing the new Moria soon with an alt. Kudos to Budgeford and the other devs!

Having Just finished getting my Warden through Moria, with a Hunter stuck there...I'm glad to see it might be less of an issue for me have to jump on a character whose there. The first couple of times through Moria were fine, but by the third time with the prospect of a fourth, It was getting monotonous.

This all sounds wonderful! There is so much I have learned to love about Moria (except trying to get around) that I feel really bad when players say they don't want to go there or stay when they arrive. I very much hope these changes will improve the popularity of this content. I am now taking my fifth character through Moria and still have four more to go. Sounds like the last four will have a much easier time of it than the first five.

Do you intend to revamp the remaining zones as well?

Originally Posted by telbric

Sigh. I'm likely in the minority, but I really dislike the new linear quest flow. Yes, it's extremely convenient that there's a quest hub next to every possible objective, but it quickly becomes formulaic and extremely boring when the entire game is like this. Regardless of the quests themselves (which are significantly better and more interesting than in the old days) the entire experience becomes less of an adventure and more of a laundry list. You always know what to expect and the magic is lost.

So I'm sad the 'convenience' treatment has arrived to Moria which was my favourite area in the game. I guess I'll have to see it, but if it's anything like the newer zones I know I'm not going to like it.

I agree. The trend is more "gamey" and less "worldly," if that makes any sense.

And yes, we are rather in the minority on this matter. Such is the MMORPG life....

I really hope that this reason:

The purpose of this revamp was to address a number of player complaints about this area. First of all, a lot of people have mentioned how leveling in Moria is so tough for them that they try to get to level 53 (3 levels late) before venturing inside. After that, they only stay in moria for 3 levels before they skip out to hit the Dimrill Dale and Lothlórien at level 56 (4 levels earlier than intended for that content).

...was only a very small reason for the revamp, because that basically sounds like players who just don't like Moria at all and want to spend as little time there as possible. It also sounds like two separate groups of people: people who think Moria is too difficult at level 50-51 are probably not the same people capable of doing Dimril Dale quests at 56. I don't think any revamp of Moria - short of putting it above ground on flat terrain in bright sunlight - is going to make those who hate Moria suddenly love it.

As for the rest: improving quest flow is a good idea, but I still think that the Epic Quest flow is a bit off compared to the rest of the place, and that went untouched. Most of the regular quests seemed to have a good flow to me.

So I entered Moria a few weeks ago in the high 40s. I've done the areas listed as revamped, plus the Flaming Deeps and haven't yet entered Redhorn Lodes.

I'm 57.

I've done no skirmishes. I haven't done the small group quests. I've only done two GS, one FT and one Turtle.

I did not play at all during the enhanced XP buff.

The reason I bring this up, is I have two characters approaching Moria with friends. I find it odd, with the current super-fast leveling with all the XP quests give you, that MORE quests were added. Now obviously more content is appreciated, but a method to not out-level areas so rapidly would be lovely. I'd much rather be entering Redhorn Lodes at 55, if I had known I'd be out-leveling everything, I guess the solution is to skip entire sections?

Since presumably tasks will also provide XP in addition to reputation, would we need to skip about half the quest hubs to stay on level?



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

While I didn't see it mentioned in the diary, from the BR prelim notes:

Moria Deeds: The standard exploration, slayer, and quest completion deeds of Moria can now be started at level 47 (lowered from the previous minimum of level 50). We're not sure we recommend braving the deeps at a lower level than intended, but the option is there!

I'm excited to see how everything was changed, but this really made my day.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

So I entered Moria a few weeks ago in the high 40s. I've done the areas listed as revamped, plus the Flaming Deeps and haven't yet entered Redhorn Lodes.

I'm 57.

I've done no skirmishes. I haven't done the small group quests. I've only done two GS, one FT and one Turtle.

I did not play at all during the enhanced XP buff.

The reason I bring this up, is I have two characters approaching Moria with friends. I find it odd, with the current super-fast leveling with all the XP quests give you, that MORE quests were added. Now obviously more content is appreciated, but a method to not out-level areas so rapidly would be lovely. I'd much rather be entering Redhorn Lodes at 55, if I had known I'd be out-leveling everything, I guess the solution is to skip entire sections?

Since presumably tasks will also provide XP in addition to reputation, would we need to skip about half the quest hubs to stay on level?

That's a really good point, RJFerret. I was wondering about this myself. Why would they add quests when there are already more than enough to get you to 60?

Originally Posted by Kyle666666

So instead of scaling instances, adding new ones, or fixing server lag issues; you decide to go back and make the game even more easy-mode.

What? You didn't see the news about Fornost, the new skirmish, and that there should be a fix for the lag in Update 7?

Originally Posted by Kyle666666

There are more issues with the game to be fixed and more broader problems with lack of content and lack of scaled instances. I'm all for re-designing areas (I love the new Evendim), but at this point in time I find it ridiculous you would put so many resources into re-designing an area most players hate anyway.

I think the point of the revamp was so that fewer people would hate Moria.

Originally Posted by Kyle666666

I would much rather you had scaled Moria instances.

That would be nice. I still wonder why the "In Their Absence" instances don't scale. They were added after the scaling technology had been part of the game.

Originally Posted by Kyle666666

The server lag is driving players away from the game as well as the lack of challenging content. If you wish to remain solvent as a game in the future you need to prioritize better. Very very disappointed, but not surprised. This is just typical thought patterns of Turbine. And I'm guessing you will revamp the second half next. . . Good intentions, bad priorities. Appease your players if you wish to remain a profitable game. (Kinship Revamp Proposal would have been a much better Update as well)

That kinship revamp proposal would be nice. So would another Legendary Item revamp, but that would probably fit better when the level cap goes up again.

Originally Posted by Kyle666666

So instead of scaling instances, adding new ones, or fixing server lag issues; you decide to go back and make the game even more easy-mode. There are more issues with the game to be fixed and more broader problems with lack of content and lack of scaled instances.

Do you understand that different devs do different tasks? Content designers won't help with server lags. Don't be ridiculous.

And actually 4 scaled instances will be added in U7 not counting 1 more skirmish

Originally Posted by Frieja

That's a really good point, RJFerret. I was wondering about this myself. Why would they add quests when there are already more than enough to get you to 60?

To give alternative in levelling ways. That is people complain a lot of.

Actually in this revamp Turbine tried to fix nearly all problems with Moria people complains of. "Turbine never listens!111"

Originally Posted by Lestache

I really hope that this reason:



...was only a very small reason for the revamp, because that basically sounds like players who just don't like Moria at all and want to spend as little time there as possible. It also sounds like two separate groups of people: people who think Moria is too difficult at level 50-51 are probably not the same people capable of doing Dimril Dale quests at 56. I don't think any revamp of Moria - short of putting it above ground on flat terrain in bright sunlight - is going to make those who hate Moria suddenly love it.

As for the rest: improving quest flow is a good idea, but I still think that the Epic Quest flow is a bit off compared to the rest of the place, and that went untouched. Most of the regular quests seemed to have a good flow to me.

^ this. Most of the changes sound very welcome, especially since I am currently starting Moria on my fourth character. However, I find it hard to believe there are so many people who find it so difficult that they wait until level 53 to jump in... I've always started the expedition quests the moment I hit 45 and went through from there.

Big props for adding a tame goat and removing a lot of the mobs in between hubs!

Originally Posted by Recolitus

[...]However, I find it hard to believe there are so many people who find it so difficult that they wait until level 53 to jump in... I've always started the expedition quests the moment I hit 45 and went through from there.[...]

I don't think that it is because it is hard for most people but because of how Moria tries to send you everywhere at the same time and they don't want to deal with it so they get in as late as possible and leave as early as possible to spend as little time as possible inside Moria.

Can I make a request for the next review (the second half as it were)? Can we please add housing to Moria? I want to be able to be one of the populating dwarfs whose not only come to reclaim Moria, but to make it proudly my home with the other brave souls who believe our ancient home should be free from evil! I know its a big request and with the number of available homes in the current housing developments it might not make sense, but Moria isn't just beautiful... its what drew me to the game about a year ago. In a corny, over the top way I wanted nothing more than to play a part in the history of defeating the watcher and driving the goblins out of existence in the Misty Mountains!

So, I guess more of a request than feedback as its been awhile since I completed as many quests as I could in the zone. But I really want my home to be Moria. Ready to be called upon to lend any aid necessary should the darkness attempt to rise again!

Originally Posted by darkknight9

Can I make a request for the next review (the second half as it were)? Can we please add housing to Moria? I want to be able to be one of the populating dwarfs whose not only come to reclaim Moria, but to make it proudly my home with the other brave souls who believe our ancient home should be free from evil! I know its a big request and with the number of available homes in the current housing developments it might not make sense, but Moria isn't just beautiful... its what drew me to the game about a year ago. In a corny, over the top way I wanted nothing more than to play a part in the history of defeating the watcher and driving the goblins out of existence in the Misty Mountains!

So, I guess more of a request than feedback as its been awhile since I completed as many quests as I could in the zone. But I really want my home to be Moria. Ready to be called upon to lend any aid necessary should the darkness attempt to rise again!

One problem is that the Iron Guard Garrison did not win Moria back. One of those Durin guys does it after the War of the Ring is over. So it seems kind of strange to have a house that you know you might lose from a story perspective in some arbitrary amount of time.

Also Turbine has put all of the current housing areas in places that people who are as low as level 15, the starting level for getting your own house, can easily get to.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

While I didn't see it mentioned in the diary, from the BR prelim notes:

Moria Deeds: The standard exploration, slayer, and quest completion deeds of Moria can now be started at level 47 (lowered from the previous minimum of level 50). We're not sure we recommend braving the deeps at a lower level than intended, but the option is there

I'm excited to see how everything was changed, but this really made my day.

Why not change it to 45? You can acquire the passive to enter moria at 45 (though you dont get your class LI until 46)..

This is wonderful news. I got Thandil through Moria and have been dreading going back through there with the next 2 toons that are scheduled to go there in the next 10+ lvls.

Now I can't wait to get back in there.

I didn't have so much of a problem with the mobs/quest difficulty (Guardians having problems questing? What's that?) It was more along the lines of my constant headaches and broken legs from running into walls and falling off cliffs because the lantern on my goat wasn't bright enough.

Originally Posted by wikjif

I don't think that it is because it is hard for most people but because of how Moria tries to send you everywhere at the same time and they don't want to deal with it so they get in as late as possible and leave as early as possible to spend as little time as possible inside Moria.

Ah, that makes more sense. If they make the changes it sounds like they're going to make, it should definitely solve that problem.

and when we going to see it happen? at the next on the maintenance on monday?

Originally Posted by x72

and when we going to see it happen? at the next on the maintenance on monday?

You can either check out Bullroarer now, there is a link in the Bullroarer forum for how to download and install it, or you can wait a couple of weeks for it to be released on a server near you, and no the maintenance on Monday is not an update to the game.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I think the point of the revamp was so that fewer people would hate Moria.

What they'll likely achieve is that people still hate Moria because it isn't the Shire, and the people that loved it before will hate what they did to it.

There are already the first beta comments of it being not remotely dark enough, which is basically what I suspected.

So they probably just exchange people between the love/hate camps.

...leveling in Moria is just too challenging, despite the initial awe and the beauty of this space. This is something we’ve wanted to address for a long time on the Content team. Moria stands in the way of a new character reaching our end-game content...

Funny, I've taken over a half dozen characters through there, mostly solo, and it never seemed like leveling was too challenging.

Many people whine that Moria is dark, confusing, and difficult. Yep. Those things are part of what makes it a truly wonderful implementation of a dangerous subterranean mess. Now we're getting fluorescent lighting, safety rails, and escalators -- it's the all new Mall of Moria! Come see the linear assortment of cookie-cutter generic quest stores, no reading necessary!

Congratulations on taking a great bit of game design and butchering it to appease the lowest common denominator.

Originally Posted by Thamlorin

What they'll likely achieve is that people still hate Moria because it isn't the Shire, and the people that loved it before will hate what they did to it.

There are already the first beta comments of it being not remotely dark enough, which is basically what I suspected.

So they probably just exchange people between the love/hate camps.

I won't go to hate camp but should say that i don't like this lightening. THIS IS MORIA!

I'm one of those that never had a problem with the amount of quests available to level, in Moria or anywhere else. I've always found it to be quite the opposite. But most of the changes sound good, it will be interesting to take an alt or two through there again now, at least through those areas, then it will be time to park them again and wait for the 2nd half revamp. One thing I'm not cazy about though is the need to simplify and hold our hand through EVERYTHING. Any quest that had us going more than a stones throw away had to be dumbed down it sounds like, the mirrors and riddles? WHat about the quest to drink in memory of that Dwarf in all the zones? Will all the drinks now be sitting on one table 20 yards from the quest giver?

Never really had problem in Moria except long travel routes.

On topic, if nothing was changed only Moria instances being scalable to 75 that would be 100x better.

A new quest hub pictured is right along a rare elite MOB pathway.

With the removal of MOBs along main travel routes, were rare elites maintained hopefully? Were they relocated? If not, will they be?

If unsuspecting players fell victim while at a new quest hub and complained, it would be horrendous if one of the few challenges in Moria were removed/lost as a result. (An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as the expression goes.)



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

Funny, I've taken over a half dozen characters through there, mostly solo, and it never seemed like leveling was too challenging.

Many people whine that Moria is dark, confusing, and difficult. Yep. Those things are part of what makes it a truly wonderful implementation of a dangerous subterranean mess. Now we're getting fluorescent lighting, safety rails, and escalators -- it's the all new Mall of Moria! Come see the linear assortment of cookie-cutter generic quest stores, no reading necessary!

Congratulations on taking a great bit of game design and butchering it to appease the lowest common denominator.

Great points here, although some questing revamp would help here and there, i dont think Moria needed much reworking at all.
I hope it doesnt turn Moria into a 2-day adventure, i plan on taking a new toon through when I play again, and i better still be able to quest in there for 2-3 weeks!

LOL @ Mall of Moria

"Moria stands in the way of a new character reaching our end-game content, and we want the 1-75 experience to go smoothly for new people as the game gets bigger."

I am filled with dread when a developer starts talking about their levelling content as if it were an obstacle to the game, rather than part of it. This is the exact same philosophy that led to Blizzard turning the 1-60 game in WoW into an ultra-linear guided tour exercise in hand holding devoid of anything resembling exploration, adventure or challenge.

You've got a cash shop - if people want to get to 75 quicker then SELL them a lvl 50 or 60 or 75 character. Or create an alternate levelling path for those who want to skip the 'difficult' bits. Don't ruin the levelling experience for the rest of us.

I don't want a well-lit, easy to navigate Moria. That seems to defeat the entire point of the place. Even Gandalf lost his way in there at times.

One of the biggest issues I have with MMORPG players is their assertion that if something takes a long time and a lot of grind it=hard and thus also fun. Moria right now is not hard or fun. Riding through tons of easy enemies then grinding tons more easy enemies then riding back then riding somewhere else all to do the same thing is not hard or fun, it's just long and grindy. I had no difficulties in Moria surviving, I just also had no fun running through the same group and getting knocked off my goat for the umpteenth time and I left Moria as quickly as possible once I finished the epic line and got kindred with the Moria reps.

So I for one am happy to see some streamlining. It seems like the quest line will still allow us to see all of Moria and appreciate it's design (which yes is amazing) while maybe taking away some of the annoying and not fun grind. In addition, for me the large amount of quests allows me to pick and choose a different set of quests to do each time I raise an alt. If I don't want to grind one set of monsters this time, I can skip it without feeling like I'm falling behind in xp. A lot of games, you need to do every single monster kill or item collection grind (and again, grind does not=hard or fun the vast majority of time) or you're screwed.

Please set the mirror quests back to repeatable.

Personally I am thrilled that the revamp to Moria is coming. I did not like the way that questing is currently done with huge hubs of quests sending you all over the place and often having quests that range in level ranges. It's also too dark for me, and I'm glad that mobs are being removed from major travel paths as I often would dread having to go from one hub to another knowing that I could not get there safely.

As to the people who state that there are problems that Turbine could better spend their time on all I can say is this: Should the Maitre'D also cook your food? In other words they have people who specialize in their craft, and they all can't be working on the problems that you've brought up. If all the people in the art department worked on server lag we'd probably get brightly painted servers when their expertise could be better spent.