Thread: Wind Lore

Originally Posted by Commish

You don't know anything about BA's if you think an induction debuff would hurt us.

Induction debuffs don't hurt BA's? I understand Skirmisher stance is good fun and all but many of our skills still have inductions.. Two of our skills (ones that are vital to puncture through a burg's TnG) are both on inductions and are quite hard to get off with addle on the BA..

Originally Posted by KingOfBlackarrows

Induction debuffs don't hurt BA's? I understand Skirmisher stance is good fun and all but many of our skills still have inductions.. Two of our skills (ones that are vital to puncture through a burg's TnG) are both on inductions and are quite hard to get off with addle on the BA..

Every BA skill with an induction other than VT is bad. Headshot is pretty worthless, even with the knockdown trait now that audacity comes into play. You shouldn't be using any induction skill except VT in the first place, so an induction debuff won't hurt you. Punctured target is a 5s cd and on the move, so just use that and strong pull.

Ideally you want to use VT when you get the jump on the LM, using headshot with the bird + the LM setting back your induction is a loss in DPS compared to just using strong pull when punctured target is off cooldown.

Here's a hint with Wind Lore in a 1v1. Use buffbars or w/e addon shows the exact duration remaining on debuffs. If you didn't get a chance to use it opening the fight save it for when there is ~3 seconds left on windlore. You can time your VT + tangleshot + punctured target to land right when windlore expires, figuring the global cooldown you can land all 3 within 2 seconds or so before even the best LM's can reapply it off cooldown.

Like I said, use some intelligence and wind lore can be countered.

What the hell are you talking about maggots? Wind Lore? Wind Lore is trash. The One Finger One Skill One key class aka Lore Master don't spam Wind Lore... 30s not a problem. Burning Embers with 3s of cooldown is the skill need nerf (oh yes there is a magic potion in store... f* y* t*!). The Lore Masters in last months only know use this skill and 95% time they don´t use Wind Lore. Only one finger... only one skill... each 3s. Use a pot with a cooldown of 30s and you will get more debuffs than a Norbog zerged.
"Traits

The trait Flame of Anor increases the damage of this skill by 10%.
The trait Harmony with Nature reduces the power cost of this skill by 15% and shortens the induction by 25%.
The trait Knowledge of the Past reduces the power cost of this skill by 3% and gives it a 20% chance to restore 50-55 power.
The trait set bonus for Master of Nature's Fury (2) increases the damage of this skill by 5%.
The trait set bonus for Master of Nature's Fury (3) increases the damage of this skill by another 20%.
The trait set bonus for Master of Nature's Fury (4) increases the damage of this skill by another 25%.
Effects

Using this skill causes Burning Embers: Slow Burn to occur on an enemy target.
Using this skill causes Burning Embers to occur on an enemy target. This effect stacks with itself up to three times on a single target per Lore-master. Using Improved Burning Embers more than three times will cause the effect to replace the earliest Burning Embers effect applied.
Interactions

The Lore-master's Staff Legacy Burning Embers Initial Damage increases the initial damage caused by this skill by up to 15%.
The Lore-master's Staff Legacy Burning Embers Range increases the range of this skill by up to thirteen meters.
The Lore-master's Staff Legacy Fire Skills Critical Multiplier increases the critical magnitude of this skill by up to 25%.
The Lore-master's Staff Legacy Tactical Skills Direct Damage increases the initial damage caused by this skill by up to 10%.
The Lore-master's Book Legacy Burning Embers Pulses extends the duration of this skill by up to forty-five seconds (nine extra pulses).
The Lore-master's Book Legacy Fire Damage Over Time increases the damage over time caused by this skill by up to 15%.
The Lore-master's Book Legacy Fire Skills Critical Rating increases the critical rating of this skill by up to 648.
The Lore-master's Book Legacy Target Resistance (Damaging Skills) decreases the resistance to this skill by up to 1580.
The Lore-master's Book Legacy Target Resistance (Fire Skills) decreases the resistance to this skill by up to 1580.
Equipping six pieces of the Stone-reader's Armour set increases the damage dealt by this skill by 10%."

Wind Lore is a joke...
And when you've got hunters doing Heart Seekers for +8k from stealth and burglars around, MT is a joke.

Originally Posted by babaju2

Just because you don't like having your damage lowered by about 1/3 (yes it's about 1/3, the -50% only subtracts from your base damage, not your actual tooltip) doesn't mean the skill should be nerfed.

No comments on thread otherwise (I haven't been playing much lately), but I just can't understand this math.

Classes get offence bonuses and whatnot... but they are percentage based. What do they modify, you ask? The base value.

100% base damage, times 1.50 for a +50% total bonus from various sources.. 150% of base damage, right?
But if you then remove -50% of the base value, you don't end up back at 100% (removing a third of the new total that is)..
The new equation becomes
50% base damage, times 1.50... 75% total. Which is half of the 150%.

Unless LOTRO does not know math of course. I wouldn't be all that surprised though

Reading some replies really makes me wonder what sort of lore-masters some people have been fighting.

With a raven up, lore-masters should have their fire mitigations not far from cap. Between pots, Wisdom of the Council (also benefit from reactive mezzing from that) and any flank they get you will typically have to plink-plink through quite a lot of additional morale, and that only got better for them since audacity. Lore-masters ain't guardians, but they won't go down in a few shots either.

Lore-masters can deal with damage setbacks several ways:
- Crafted consumables, next induction has no setback
- Call to the valar: inductions have no setback for 10s
- Crowd control. Not very effective as crowd control due to pots, audacity, diminishing returns, then again, a 1s stun + shake off animation is all it takes to cast yet another burning ember.
- Just going through with it. BAs ain't a dual wielding class with a pet, now *that* would cause a lot of setbacks ...

They can deal with "run-through" issues several ways:
- Using any of their skills that merely require line-of-sight, not facing the target.
- Stuns & mez (see previous item ...)
- Good old mouse rotation ...

Going for the run-through dance in melee against a LM might be the sensible option if they don't know how to deal with it, if they do though, you'd better have Moving Target up, because if not, on top of getting nuked, you're gonna eat auto-attacks from a class that dual-wields with a two-hander as main hand and you will give them another way to deal with induction setbacks by letting them use their pretty nasty melee skills, one of which increases their critical hit rate.

Fire-trap ? Not very likely to drop that under a LM's feet with a bird and its owner in your face. If you even manage to do that, the LM can just take two steps back.

Lore-masters have more than Wind-Lore (or the bird's distraction) to deal with you also, SoP:Command is vastly overlooked, it increases your attack speed by 20%, which decreases your dps using non induction skills by almost that much, and the bird has a hit chance debuff that occasionally applies (and hell, LMs could also debuff your hit chance (Gust of Wind, Fire-Lore) and crit rate (SoP:See all Ends), and trait for an even better Wind-Lore & Gust of Wind although not realistically worth the hassle).

And then there's Burning Embers in all its glory, but someone has gone at length about it already ...

Today is another day, how about a ''Blind Fury'' thread? Keeping ''Addle'' for tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Equendil

Reading some replies really makes me wonder what sort of lore-masters some people have been fighting.

With a raven up, lore-masters should have their fire mitigations not far from cap. Between pots, Wisdom of the Council (also benefit from reactive mezzing from that) and any flank they get you will typically have to plink-plink through quite a lot of additional morale, and that only got better for them since audacity. Lore-masters ain't guardians, but they won't go down in a few shots either.

Lore-masters can deal with damage setbacks several ways:
- Crafted consumables, next induction has no setback
- Call to the valar: inductions have no setback for 10s
- Crowd control. Not very effective as crowd control due to pots, audacity, diminishing returns, then again, a 1s stun + shake off animation is all it takes to cast yet another burning ember.
- Just going through with it. BAs ain't a dual wielding class with a pet, now *that* would cause a lot of setbacks ...

They can deal with "run-through" issues two ways:
- Using any of their skills that merely require line-of-sight, not facing the target.
- Stuns & mez (see previous item ...)
- Good old mouse rotation ...

Going for the run-through dance in melee against a LM might be the sensible option if they don't know how to deal with it, if they do though, you'd better have Moving Target up, because if not, on top of getting nuked, you're gonna eat auto-attacks from a class that dual-wields with a two-hander as main hand and you will give them another way to deal with induction setbacks by letting them use their pretty nasty melee skills, one of which increases their critical hit rate.

Fire-trap ? Not very likely to drop that under a LM's feet with a bird and its owner in your face. If you even manage to do that, the LM can just take two steps back.

Lore-masters have more than Wind-Lore (or the bird's distraction) to deal with you also, SoP:Command is vastly overlooked, it increases your attack speed by 20%, which decreases your dps using non induction skills by almost that much, and the bird has a hit chance debuff that occasionally applies (and hell, LMs could also debuff your hit chance (Gust of Wind, Fire-Lore) and crit rate (SoP:See all Ends), and trait for an even better Wind-Lore & Gust of Wind although not realistically worth the hassle).

And then there's Burning Embers in all its glory, but someone has gone at length about it already ...

I never have a problem killing a BA (even when they use in combat brands and all their cds, and I don't use any myself in a 1v1), but honestly if my opponents had more skill, the fights would be a lot closer. If what you're getting at is that LMs have a big advantage over BAs if they know how to use their skills and mouse turn, I definitely agree. BAs aren't "that" gimped when fighting LMs though. Their damage is much lower than normal, but a good circling BA will be able to prevent many of the best mouse turning hunters'/LMs' inductions from going off just because they're so mobile in skirmisher stance.

Stop this please... Loremasters are a support class so why they have to nerf support skills?? Next thread will ask to reduce the armour of Guardians and dps of Hunters? Come on don't be so silly now, and don't think only at PvMP...

This threads are really silly...

Originally Posted by Baronth

Stop this please... Loremasters are a support class so why they have to nerf support skills?? Next thread will ask to reduce the armour of Guardians and dps of Hunters? Come on don't be so silly now, and don't think only at PvMP...

This threads are really silly...

But somehow threads about giving similar debuffs to creepside is equally silly, if not more so. (And those next threads you mentioned have shown up plenty already).

How many LMs trait for support instead of damage? Can you really call them a support class when the vast majority are traiting for damage first? At best I'd call them hybrid. Kinda like how the Minstrel is a healing class, supposedly. Almost seems like the main trait of almost all freep classes is dps.. and the secondary function is what determines the class role. You'd think the primary should do that, but I just don't see it.

I don't think LMs need to be nerfed though, I should think -25 to -50% CC duration was plenty in that direction. Perhaps it does speak to the versatility of the skillset that even after such a nerf, some consider the LM to have too much to do. Maybe these tools weren't enough in use while CC still had full duration?

The easy solution that would separate pvmp and pve would be to make that warband maneuver protection buff thingy all freeps get upon entering the ettenmoors.. also affect their abilities.

----
If people hadn't already spent 5 years grinding their ranks on freep and creep pvp characters, I'd suggest a complete revamp and reset of the pvmp system with Rohan. Have _both_ sides with creep-like progression and characters. Unlock _both_ sides at level 10 freep. Have both sides autolevel to max. Have both sides available in full for VIPs and at a TP cost to others. Have pvmp freeps unable to leave ettenmoors (or more likely some area in Rohan). Have freeps not be exact copies of current freep classes but designed specifically with pvp in mind. That'd also pave the way for mounted combat available to both groups and all classes (if you convert all of current classes to mounted combat (horse, oliphant, warg, whathaveyou), what happens with inductions, ranged, melee differences?).

I started rambling again, probably offtopic.

Originally Posted by TizianEnel

But somehow threads about giving similar debuffs to creepside is equally silly, if not more so. (And those next threads you mentioned have shown up plenty already).

How many LMs trait for support instead of damage? Can you really call them a support class when the vast majority are traiting for damage first? At best I'd call them hybrid. Kinda like how the Minstrel is a healing class, supposedly. Almost seems like the main trait of almost all freep classes is dps.. and the secondary function is what determines the class role. You'd think the primary should do that, but I just don't see it.

I agree with your first statement.

But it's obvious that in ettenmoors LMs are traited for damage, as every other freep class... But if you nerf Wind-lore, you nerf it outside etten too, so it's really without sense...
If you (all) want to ask for "nerfs", ask for it only in ettenmoors, and don't in pve too...

( And i play both pvp (creeps/freeps) and pve )

Originally Posted by Baronth

I agree with your first statement.

But it's obvious that in ettenmoors LMs are traited for damage, as every other freep class... But if you nerf Wind-lore, you nerf it outside etten too, so it's really without sense...
If you (all) want to ask for "nerfs", ask for it only in ettenmoors, and don't in pve too...

( And i play both pvp (creeps/freeps) and pve )

And who asked for freeps to get nerfed in the whole universe of the game?
Ok you have to understand smth.When we ask something to b nerfed(or when creeps whine for smth)
its always only for PVP purposes and NOT PVE.I dont want minstrel to get nerf outside of the ettenmoors
BUT some heals need some nerf ONLY INSIDE ettenmoors

Did you know that Fervour stance in pvp can parry? or do you even know or remember that Fervour stance(when it had -30% inc healing) didnt have this disadvantage in the Moors ONLY?

Thats why ppl dont understand for what creeps whine(yes whine) and freep pvpers dont understand our statements about nerfs and a whole star wars is happening in the... *silly*... threads you mentioned

Lm is not actually a support class... Especially in the moors most of them trait DPS and im fine with it.

You really think that they are going to change skills in ettenmoors only? If they change something, they change it both pve and pvmp...

So don't tell me that you don't ask for nerfs in pve, because if they nerf, they nerf everywhere...

Ask for buffs/new skills for creeps, and don't for freeps, that's the way...

Originally Posted by Baronth

You really think that they are going to change skills in ettenmoors only? If they change something, they change it both pve and pvmp...

So don't tell me that you don't ask for nerfs in pve, because if they nerf, they nerf everywhere...

Ask for buffs/new skills for creeps, and don't for freeps, that's the way...

...............
Did you even read what i said?

This is a simple example
Did you know that Fervour stance in pvp can parry? or do you even know or remember that Fervour stance(when it had -30% inc healing) didnt have this disadvantage in the Moors ONLY?

When you go in ettenmoors you get a buff...redish-brownish...read that next time and come back comment

But i have to agree that we should ask for skills etc...and when we do(i did) freep trollers just came and trolling around.... so

So, to reiterate:

We already know skills can be treated differently in pvmp and pve zones.
But the devs choose not to balance with that in mind and a lot of folks on forum aren't aware of this possibility and thus treat everything as if it would have to also affect pve. I suspect many devs aren't aware of this either, that'd certainly explain a lot.

You want an example?

They nerfed the mini bubble because of 1 billion requests of nerf... Where? Only pvp? No! And it was a nice bubble while healing in big raids... So if you think that in the future ( not in the past ) they will nerf classes only in pvmp, you are dreaming...

Wind lore is fine, and ba isn't exactly weak, now is it?

You seem to have a lot of complaints... Anyway, killing LMs isn't that hard. Even if they put up Wind-lore, I usually kill them unless they Man-Heal + Wisdom on my BA.

The thing is that ppl dont read the whole thread from waht i see

What im trying to say is not to berf Lm's W-L be able to kill them easily BUT i mean that it makes me almost useless when there are atleast 2-3 lms between fights spamming it,meaning that i cant counterattack this -50% or 60% if traited cause after all only VT and revenge do some dmg everything else is a joke

Originally Posted by Baronth

You want an example?

They nerfed the mini bubble because of 1 billion requests of nerf... Where? Only pvp? No! And it was a nice bubble while healing in big raids... So if you think that in the future ( not in the past ) they will nerf classes only in pvmp, you are dreaming...

have you ever heard of the skill desperate flight? works IC in PvE and OOC In PvP.
if you complain about a nerf at the most op class in PvP & PvE you're doing something wrong.
Now please troll somewhere else

they should make it so that windlore and such got reduced by audacity,
rank 7 audacity = -25% range damage for 15seconds
etc..
If anyone got a better idea I'd like to hear it? no? thought so, make it so and close this thread.