Thread: Update 7 content

Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

I wonder if they will ever try to revamp instances without resorting to chopping them up? We have very few lengthy fellowship instances that remain in the game and I do not want to see all of them in pieces. At least Carn Dum and Urugarth deserve better...

I agree, especially since Carn Dum already has a lock system that allows players to essentially chop it up on their own anyway, although perhaps the CD locks reset too often now for people wanting to check the place out for the first time on-level.

Originally Posted by DobbelB_EU

The highlights have been released.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/1966

1 new skirmish with only 2 difficulty tiers
Fornost Revamp, 4 instances
Moria Revamp

At first sight it is not very much. But it's better than nothing, and quality goes always above quantity.
I was hoping for an epic book, though. Hopefully that means more time is spent at RoR.

A revamp of Moria sounds like a lot of work and not 'not very much'. I'm surprised this is being done just now with all the work that Rohan must need, perhaps some practice for the junior devs before they move to the new xpac.

I think it's not quality vs quantity: it's that the type of instance that works well for this game (and probably for MMOs in general) has shifted over the years from epic, multi-hour dungeon crawls to smaller instances with tangible results that can be attained within an hour.

The closest equivalent to the dungeon crawl in LOTRO today are the big raids like Orthanc: doing the full content (five wings) still takes 3+ hours even for a well-practiced group, but it can more easily be broken up into a week's set of events (without, for example, having to run for 10 minutes to get to whatever raid lock you're currently at).

I suppose with effort a compromise could be reached, where the fight feels epic, linear, and contiguous but still has many of the advantages of the 'bite-sized chunks' design philosophy (the Rift, with all of its portal doorways, is just begging for this sort of scaling: with a light touch, you wouldn't be able to tell that it'd been broken up, until you start midway through it the next day and find yourself zapped to the middle of the raid instantaneously).

Breaking up the instances into raids also makes things more flexible in unexpected ways: currently, my kin can pull off Lightning in T2 Challenge, but nothing else reliably (except for T1 of course). So we make a habit of knocking out the T2 wing first, then streamroll the other wings. If it was a single crawl, it'd be a hassle to start in T1, get a wing done, disband, reform, restart in T2, get Lightning done, then go back to T1 for the rest of the content. It allows us to progress more smoothly and with more satisfying rewards.

Nice. A new skirmish was well past due. Also looking forwards to scaled Fornost, perhaps I will finally have a proper run through the place (never set foot to Annuminas instances either before they got a scaled once-over).

In regards to Moria, I am in the camp that likes the place, even after running multiple characters through majority of the quests. Hopefully they have put attention to the place that always felt most problematic: the Foundations.

Edit: CD is certainly easy to split up once they get that far, because it essentially is split up already. Outside the fortress, the fortress courtyard, and inside the fortress. Deed locked progress, and the first area's boss would of course be good old Helchgam. And let me add, lvl 75 Helchie battle is something I'd really, really like to see.

Anyone want to start a pool on what they devs break in this update and wont fix?

As for spitting up instances, I find that it really depends on what is "lost" when the instances are broken up as to whether I find it as a positive vs. a negative.

For example - losing the "Ancient Story of Evil" questline in the Great Barrows including forging the key was a blow to the instances (yes, I know that the essence is kinda still there with the deed and instance quests, it's just not the same). Also, I miss the fight where you are absolutely swarmed by crawlers - the location is still in the Epic quest but the fight is gone

As long as all of the quests and story are intact I'm looking forward to see what they may have done. And by intact - I hope that there is a flow to the instances held together by landscape quests vs. info/text added to a deed gate.

@ people over-reacting to a small "highlights" presser about update 7. Wait until you read the full patch notes before assuming there's no more PvMP balancing or class tweaks.

WHAT!!!! There's no mention of bug fixes. I'm going to Guild Wars 2!!!!!111

Both games are F2P so people can enjoy LOTRO and GW2.

Originally Posted by jayspeed

Both games are F2P so people can enjoy LOTRO and GW2.

How exactly is a game that costs 60 bucks free to play?

In the past 3 months how many times did you see a group being advertised for:

Helegrod
Great Barrow
School/Library
Garth Agarwen
?

I can answer that: maybe a handful of times. Fornost? Will be one and done. I hope I'm wrong.

PS: Don't chop the Rift. Leave it as it is. Mind as well.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

In the past 3 months how many times did you see a group being advertised for:

Helegrod
Great Barrow
School/Library
Garth Agarwen
?

I can answer that: maybe a handful of times. Fornost? Will be one and done. I hope I'm wrong.

PS: Don't chop the Rift. Leave it as it is. Mind as well.

a) Instance Finder
b) How many times did you see an advertisement for the not-yet-revamped instances?

The only thing I am really expecting is the pvmp update. Too bad it hasn't been mentioned. Are we still getting stuck with the old items/problems?

Originally Posted by Reniannen

a) Instance Finder
b) How many times did you see an advertisement for the not-yet-revamped instances?

a) so according to you Instance Finder is a success. Ok, I rest my case... Wait, does anyone actually use it?

b) RoF (way more before the nerf than now) and Foundry are being pugged constantly. ToO not so much anymore during the week, but on E there are t1 pugs going every weekend.

Anyway, yey for a new skirmish. I'm actually looking forward to seeing it.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

a) Instance Finder
b) How many times did you see an advertisement for the not-yet-revamped instances?

a) I doubt that the Instance Finder has cut into the glff/lff ads for groups. Mostly I see people asking how long it takes to find a group for instance X (or anything) via the Instance Finder, as often they've been queued up for half an hour or more with nothing to show for it - and this is on Elendilmir, where we're not exactly suffering from population issues.

b) Honestly, about as often as I see people advertising for group for the revamped instances... which is to say, not that often. Content that we've out-leveled becomes obsolete over time, and although I do feel a bit for the people who have little chance to try some of the older instances on-level, revamping them doesn't exactly solve that issue. Their odds of running GB in the 20s don't change because GB was revamped; their odds of running Fornost in the 30s/40s won't change because of the revamp either.

The only thing that does change is that the revamped instances get a small surge in usage - for long-time players, it's a nice chance to reminisce (even if the fights get changed from their original format), and for newer players, it's a chance to experience the instances at the current level cap. However, there was nothing stopping newer players from experiencing these instances prior to the revamps - they just would have to contend with probably being over-level when doing them.

The revamped instances really only get continued usage after that initial surge if there is a profitable time/reward reason for running them. GB and Annuminas Palace remained popular for some time at level 65 because they were the quickest and easiest to run, and offered rewards that people wanted. At level 75 the rewards from GB/Annum are outstripped by those available in the new instances, so revamped GB and Annuminas have returned to the obsolete pile.

To me, that's no different than what happens with brand new instances: new instance is popular for a while; new instance continues to be popular as long as it offers good rewards; once newer instances come along, the previously new becomes old and obsolete.

All of which makes me ask, "Why bother revamping old content when the revamped content will have the same shelf life as new content would?" Personally, when there is work being done on instance development, I'd rather see that work go towards new content. If the revamped content somehow remained relevant and profitable for each level cap raise, then I'd consider it a success. But the revamped content doesn't remain relevant, and even if it did - how much fun would it be if we could constantly get the best (or near best) gear from running the exact same instances at each new level cap? Considering that the fight mechanics don't change, the only difference between a level 65 GB and a level 75 GB is that the mobs have more morale and do more damage - but then so do we, so the fights haven't changed one bit.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

In the past 3 months how many times did you see a group being advertised for:

Helegrod
Great Barrow
School/Library
Garth Agarwen
?

I can answer that: maybe a handful of times. Fornost? Will be one and done. I hope I'm wrong.

PS: Don't chop the Rift. Leave it as it is. Mind as well.

To be fair, those instances became ignored once the currency change took place. I saw pugs for Hele, GB and Sch/Lib all the time before U5, since all of those dropped those coveted S4Ms that were (then) needed for the Draigoch set. While they still drop seals and medallions, its not nearly as much as before, they came inefficient for reward earning and stopping being run. If they still dropped a comparable of Medallions, they wouldn't have become obsolete.

Originally Posted by Zerric

Anyone want to start a pool on what they devs break in this update and wont fix?

Well, from observation and experience we may conclude that the code base has gone well beyond the point where if you add/fix something in one place, at least two other things break in totally unexpected places because of side effects. Therefore no bets.
A result of this may be that the up-and-coming mounted combat system might get downright interesting, albeit for completely wrong reasons.

And OT: meh. As long as my kin is able to raid, I shall too. But attendance is dwindling, and the ongoing server-induced lag on the client is not helping matters at all.

So D3 will hopefully keep me occupied until that shining, bright new marvel called TESO will hit a Mac near me...

Big thumbs up on new skirmish and scaled Fornost, but... Moria revamp? Why Moria, already fine as it is and not North Downs or Trollshaws, desperate for better questing flow? What there is to change in Moria anyway? Questing is already neatly organized, rewards are mostly okay on-level too. It says they're only affecting the Western Part: Great Delving, Silvertine Lodes, Water-Works and Durin's Way - the more twisted and complex parts. Does that mean they're changing the landscape to be more open like Redhorn Lodes or Nud-Melek? Or simply adjusting the maps so they can finally point you how to get to the destination? I would welcome the latter, but very much fear the former

Originally Posted by Lestache

The revamped instances really only get continued usage after that initial surge if there is a profitable time/reward reason for running them.

Couldn't agree more - my prediction is Fornost will drop Medallions/Seals at least as generously as Foundry, with some very juicy teal loot drops for T2.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

This is really disappointing to hear Fornost has gone the way of Helegrod, Garth Agarwen and Great Barrows, getting gutted and ruined by splitting this now once epic instance into four pieces.

I do not understand why Turbine does this. These are classic spaces and running them were events akin to running a raid, but didn't require 12 or 24 people - helegrod notwithstanding.

Lotro is supposed to be first and formost about storytelling and these instances as they were had a flow and were an adventure in and of themselves. By breaking up the instances, not to mention not requiring us to actually travel to the instances, you break of the flow, the narrative of these places. You make them feel disjointed and more like skirmishes than what they were in the past.

I don't understand why you can't scale these spaces but leave them as they were. At this rate, I hope you never get around to CD, Uru and the Rift. Honestly, I'd rather run them under level and get the full experience instead of playing the hacked up half assed pseudo skirmish that the others have become.

Agreed, in principle. But I have to be honest - I haven't been able to get INTO the place in forever, because nobody will go with me.

Originally Posted by telbric

How exactly is a game that costs 60 bucks free to play?

Because in the MMO world, a game that has no subscription fee is considered F2P. LOTRO has a hybrid pricing model though but the F2P option is still available. GW2 has no monthly sub so hence the free to play. The game disc costs money so I get what you're trying to say but GW is a F2P MMO series.

The update looks good to me, or good enough, at least. The one thing I'm disappointed not to see is another epic book, but I wasn't sure there would be one, considering the way book 6 ended.

I like the idea of the skirmish. Like someone else said, the Gwyllion story ended pretty abruptly, and I've been waiting for a follow-up for a while now. There have been hints in the game for some time now that we'd eventually need to scale Methedras and confront her, and when we didn't get such an instance in the Dunland instance cluster, I was disappointed. Sounds like the skirmish will take place in an all-new setting, too, which is neat. And we've needed some new skirmishes for a while. So I'm pleased.

I'm looking forward to the Fornost revamp. Fornost is an old favorite of mine; it's a wonderful setting and a good instance. The only problem I ever had with it was that it was so brutally long... I remember it taking three hours minimum on-level. While I'm not a fan of breaking up instances in general, Fornost is probably an instance that needed to be broken up. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new instances look and play like. And I'm very happy to have four new 6-man instances to take my kinship through; we've been lacking on 6-man content since ROI was released.

The Moria update surprises me. I'm one of those who has a love/hate relationship with Moria; I really like Moria, but there are certainly issues that could stand to be fixed. And while I may enjoy Moria, I know there are many, many people who don't. Given the quality of the Evendim update, which I think was the most recent update, I think the Moria update will be good. I'll have to run a character through Moria at some point to see what's changed. The visual changes to Moria are intriguing as well. I think Moria looks great as is, but certainly, LOTRO's graphical quality and world design have improved since Moria was released, so I'm sure there are things that can be improved.

One thing I have to ask: will this be a two-part update? It sounds like only the western half of Moria is getting an update. Will the eastern half be getting an update later on?

While we're on the subject of updates, by the way, I'm going to put in another vote for a Trollshaws update. I don't think any zone needs an update as badly as the Trollshaws. There are so few quests there, and so many places many players probably don't even see, and the lovely ruins that dot the northwestern canyons are so underutilized. I would love to see the Trollshaws redesigned to make better use of its potential.

I am looking forward to this :-)
sure wonder what they have in mind for June

I am happy with the way Turbine are investing a lot of time and no doubt money to LOTRO. The content upgrades and expansions now come more frequent than ever. For me the only negative aspect is the grind for tokens. I would like to see in game GM's running small events etc which players can get involved in.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

This is really disappointing to hear Fornost has gone the way of Helegrod, Garth Agarwen and Great Barrows, getting gutted and ruined by splitting this now once epic instance into four pieces.

I do not understand why Turbine does this.

Because noone go to old instances and many people go to new scaled ones. It's simple. And i love this revamp because Fornost was forgotten for too long.

Originally Posted by Astegorn

exploration heaven for explorers and cartographers.

Unfortunately Turbine killed any concept of that when they dumbed the maps down and removed the 'fog of war' so that you see the entire map the moment you zone in for the first time.

Hmmm...I wonder how they choose what needs to be changed? Perhaps they flip a coin or draw names out of a hat; or maybe they put on a blindfold and throw darts at a chart...

Anyway...their choices suck!

I like what I see. Though I am very sad that there won't be a new epic with this update.

It's a pitty to see Moria being revamped (I personally never had anything against the place, unless perhaps some of the quests in the foundation of stone ).. it wouldnt be a pitty unless its an upscale though .. if you follow all 'outdoor' content, meaning you follow and complete the epic book, and while doing that you do the quests in the zones you come trough, you can hit lvl 55+ with ease, which made you higher level already starting in moria ... wonder what will happen with the instances there tho... I always did them while leveling, boy you get a lot of EXP from doing GS, and the other instances arn't that bad either .. will they stay on level?, think its lvl 58 for most of them with exception of GS (56), and forgotten treasury (54)... will these be scaled along with the 'area' level then as well ? .. now it looks/feels like a quick rush towards the place, run trough it, and visit the other places .. but tbh, even some of those are already skiped nowadays .. ...

Fornost revamp .. well... think its with moria, you either love it, or hate it with all your guts, for me its the last one .. the place never interrested me, same as with CD/URU... this could be a nice thing, but wonder if it will bring back the 'love' for the place once you 'hate' it .. will see when it launches ...

Originally Posted by Sapience

Moria is one of those places in the game where we've discovered people have strong feelings one way or the other. We also heard a lot of feedback that even those who really love Moria had a sort of "love/hate" relationship with the place. So we're trying to make that more of a 'love/love'.

Or hate/hate. Or, more likely, just exchange people between the sides of that relationship. *shrugs* Imho, that's a clear example of fixing something that isn't broken.

Two words: MORIA REVAMP.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

a) so according to you Instance Finder is a success. Ok, I rest my case... Wait, does anyone actually use it?

Where have I said that?

b) RoF (way more before the nerf than now) and Foundry are being pugged constantly. ToO not so much anymore during the week, but on E there are t1 pugs going every weekend.

Those are new, I was talking about those that could've been revamped but weren't (yet).

Originally Posted by Lestache

a) I doubt that the Instance Finder has cut into the glff/lff ads for groups. Mostly I see people asking how long it takes to find a group for instance X (or anything) via the Instance Finder, as often they've been queued up for half an hour or more with nothing to show for it - and this is on Elendilmir, where we're not exactly suffering from population issues.

Not saying it has cut, but maybe it has become a venue for those instances that are rarely ever run, because no one in their right mind would even try to suggest Fornost on glff

b) Honestly, about as often as I see people advertising for group for the revamped instances... which is to say, not that often.

/snip
[/QUOTE]
So how is revamping making things worse then?

Looking forward to seeing the changes in Moria, including graphic update. Hopefully, it will be in time for my second character to head through there.

Any idea when this goes live? I have two toons very close to entering Moria. Don't want to miss out on the changes.

Originally Posted by DobbelB_EU

The highlights have been released.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/1966

1 new skirmish with only 2 difficulty tiers
Fornost Revamp, 4 instances
Moria Revamp

At first sight it is not very much. But it's better than nothing, and quality goes always above quantity.
I was hoping for an epic book, though. Hopefully that means more time is spent at RoR.

Can't wait to finally run Fornost again hope they scale it... if not still gonna be fun to do

Not sure what to expect from Moria Revamp, but oh well... ((hope they wont scale the moria instances... they are fun to run at around 58-60 and to run them as a 75 for alts))

Originally Posted by seekingerin

I don't think any zone needs an update as badly as the Trollshaws. There are so few quests there, and so many places many players probably don't even see, and the lovely ruins that dot the northwestern canyons are so underutilized. I would love to see the Trollshaws redesigned to make better use of its potential.

Misty Mountains is just as badly in need of a revamp (if not even more).

North Downs is also a bit messy, but manageable. Trollshaws and Misty Mountains are much worse.

Fornost was really not an absurdly long instance, unlike what most people try to make it seem. It was one of my favourite instances to run and I had done multiple full clears while leveling up my Burglar. I can recall doing full runs in less than 2 hours without taking the shortcut. If they had kept everything the same, but only scaled the level to 75, it would have probably been possible to clear it in less than an hour due to the way our damage scales.

They could have easily kept the structure the same, but revamped the enemies and pulls to make the instance flow a bit better. They could have revamped some quests (such as the shades and Oakheart) so they wouldn't consume as much time. They could have still kept the shortcut in place so that groups with someone who had cleared the instance once before could easily go to the end in roughly 30 minutes.

Nobody ran Great Barrows and Helegrod because they were suddenly better when they got chopped up. People had to run them for Superior 3rd Marks; there were no other options during the time the game went F2P. Had they kept them in one piece but still made them gave S3Ms, people would have still ran them as much as they did. Or likewise, if they weren't giving S3Ms, nobody would have ran them. It's simple really. Had they scaled Fornost the way it was, with only minor revamps to enemies and quest structures, people would have still ran it provided it was worth the time when it comes to rewards.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Not saying it has cut, but maybe it has become a venue for those instances that are rarely ever run, because no one in their right mind would even try to suggest Fornost on glff

No, it hasn't become a venue for anything. All IF is good for is to try to boost medallion gain after gathering your full group from conventional LFF channels. Almost nobody uses IF to gather random groups because they know that the chances of 6 people attempting to run the same instance via IF at the same time is less than winning a Worn Symbol of the Elder King in a lottery. I've made multiple attempts to get groups for random 3-man skirmishes, yet even all of those failed to succeed and I was always put into a solo skirmish after some waiting.

Well I'm happy to see Fornost getting revamped, after more than 140 separate runs through the place, I can safely say it needed it. I wont be missing what that "2 hour tour" was. 4 split up wings sounds great. Ill be looking forward when that happens to Uru and probably turning CD into 6 or 7 wings. How many of you have actually run the Troll wing, bottom to top, just for your local guard or for the key of the troll.

I am rather disappointed in a revamp of Moria, let alone what are arguably the easiest sections of Moria (Entrance and most of the western areas). What truly needed revamping are the Orc-Watches quests leading you up to near the 21st hall and the Foundations of Stone (If the elite trolls were gone you would see the number of people running through there skyrocket).

All Moria really needed was the moving of a few quests from Orc-Watch up to near the middle of Zelem-Melek and the removal of the elite trolls in Foundations of Stone, and some people want a few more swift travel routes altho I think its fine as is. (Swift Travel from 21st to Anazarmekhem and take the "no mobs" path to Orc-Watch is almost as fast and safe as going straight to Orc Watch from 21st.)

As with any new content - make the rewards good enough and people will play it. Raid skirmishes have really dropped off on our server since the S4M grind went away which is a shame. Unless this new one has something significant and unique to try for then I guess most people will play it a couple of times then never again.

The Fornost update sounds very interesting and I hope it will be well implemented. Give the chests a small chance to drop a WSOTEK on T2 and people will run it like mad every week. A 1 in 6 roll is clearly better than a 1 in 12 roll. It would also be great to see a Fornost Jewellery set similar and complimentary to the Limlight Gorge / Stangard one. A ring/bracelet/earring set would be pretty awesome. It should also be very very hard to get with maybe a barter token dropping from the challenge chest in each of the 4 wings.

Moria will never be a fun place to go. Sure, make the quest hubs a bit tighter (like all the recent content) and make the swift travel a bit better. Anything to get in there, level up from 50 - 60 ASAP and get out.

But when is BR gonna open omgash!!! lol

While I'm generally not a fan of revamped instances (and I pray they won't have time to look at CD or Uru for a couple of years), Fornost probably could use it. I just hope they took the 'GA-route' with it and not skirmishified it like GB (honestly, I think I used to run GB more before they revamped it than after).