Thread: Update 7 content

The highlights have been released.

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/1966

1 new skirmish with only 2 difficulty tiers
Fornost Revamp, 4 instances
Moria Revamp

At first sight it is not very much. But it's better than nothing, and quality goes always above quantity.
I was hoping for an epic book, though. Hopefully that means more time is spent at RoR.

Aha! Thanks for the link! Finally some good news. Shame that no more classes were revised though (*ahem*, hunter)

Oh no! I'll have to relearn Moria! Cautiously optimistic.

Fornost scaled - woo.

Originally Posted by zalladi

Aha! Thanks for the link! Finally some good news. Shame that no more classes were revised though (*ahem*, hunter)

Considering this high-level overview didn't mention the known Warden fixes, I think you should wait til the final patch notes are released to say that.

I will say that hunters have become very good at whining. So much so that I've stopped reading their forums, despite owning a 75 hunter.

Interesting.

1 new skirmish, essentially 4 new endgame six-man instances and a revamp of Moria. As a mostly solo player I'm more curious about the changes to Moria.

To be honest I never had THAT many issues with the place, I think the Trollshaws, Misty Mountains or North Downs would have made better candidates, but oh well. *shrug*

Frankly the parts mentioned were never particularly difficult, it's the implied changes to the looks that has me piqued.

Cool. I look forward to reading the dev diaries.

no mention on pvmp balance or class updates?
buying guild wars 2 now

Personally, while I don't see what's wrong with moria( my favorite place, just awesome) though some quick travels seemed to be missing. I don't know what they are going to do. I'm exited.

I agree Trollshaws is badly need of a revamp, I wouldn't have imagined Moria was even on the list. Nothing can be changed there that would appease those who dislike it (by it's nature it needs to be a big empty twisty cavernous area with walls--they already complain of MOB density, if you add more, they'll just complain more, if you take any away, there'll be none there and nothing to do).

A North Downs revamp would be lovely--all the back and forth from one side of the mountain ridge to the other, blyech. Misty is very streamlined though, most quests are right around the corner from the giver, but more content there would be nice, although redundant to the multitude of similar level quests in competitive areas.

Thanks OP for sharing the link, +rep.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Armaius

Cool. I look forward to reading the dev diaries.

There are two developer diaries planned. One for Fornost and one for Moria.

Originally Posted by A_Rabaey

Personally, while I don't see what's wrong with moria( my favorite place, just awesome) though some quick travels seemed to be missing. I don't know what they are going to do. I'm exited.

Moria is one of those places in the game where we've discovered people have strong feelings one way or the other. We also heard a lot of feedback that even those who really love Moria had a sort of "love/hate" relationship with the place. So we're trying to make that more of a 'love/love'.

Fornost I'll probably be happy with. It's been in need of a revamp for a good while. In Moria, I'm hoping the quests will be a bit more streamlined than what they are currently. Does it apply to all of Moria or just the few that have been listed?

I love the idea for the new skirmish. That plotline in Dunland just kinda stopped unexpectedly, so I'm glad they picked it up again. Why only 2 tiers, though?

A revamped Moria sounds fun. I have a couple characters getting close to that level.

Originally Posted by Sapience

"love/hate" relationship

The only problem was that it was hard to read the map of Moria because of the terrain level differences.
A simple map redrawing with selectable layers (lowest, low, normal, high, highest, etc) would have made the difference from the start.

Personally, I absolutely love it, most outstanding work of the level designers, exploration heaven for explorers and cartographers. Hope to see more like this in the future (except in the outdoors:P).

Originally Posted by Unrecorded

no mention on pvmp balance or class updates?
buying guild wars 2 now

my thoughts exactly!

Hmmmm...that offers me some tough decisions. I have an RK that just finished Moria, other than the going back in you have to do for Loth quests, and I have a hunter who would be in there very soon (this weekend probably) who I will now likely park until the revamp. Having *just* finished it on one toon, I'll be interested to see the changes on another run through so soon.

I do have mixed feelings about it. I'd sort of describe it as a "love/hate" relationship myself, but parts of the "hate" I think are actually pretty interesting game design. The only genuinely annoying thing I can think of is how the epic line in there meshes so poorly with the other quests in Moria. Why does Chamber of the Crossroads stuff send me back into the Great Delving?

I guess making it so there's less "running through hallways full of mobs...all...the...time" would probably help reduce complaints about the place quite a bit, so that's the kind of thing I'm expecting.

Re: Fornost - I hope it's worth running at 75! I really liked doing daily Lib/School/GB runs at 75 because the purples were decent and the barter currency made it worthwhile. The U5 nerf to those instances in terms of valuable rewards was a real shame and kind of ruined the point of scaling them to some extent, so I hope there's more to level 75 Fornost than a nostalgia trip that's got the difficulty scaled by level.

Outa curiosity will it just be the quests in Moria getting some love or will the instances also be getting some scaling perhaps?

Moria - it has HUGE potential. If revamp is right. What's right in my opinion? Make usage of all those shut doors we see but which can't be accessed. More instances, 3-man too, and raids. Simple ones which can be done by casual players and something hard for hardcore elite. Expansion would be good - perhaps dwarves could have discovered some of those drowned treasuries or opened up passage which was previously blocked.
But this could also go real bad if everything just gets changed or made very simple. Imho Moria should remain a dark and dangerous place. Still, even if it gets ruined, will have something nice to remember... Optimistic, waiting for developer's diary

But other places... Trollshaws really needs some update. At the very least, some swift travels but it's generally underdog compared to others. North-downs could use some refreshing in several spots aswell. Right now, several quests hubs/settlements can be and probably ARE bypassed easily at the first time for a new player. And later on, bypassed because they offer little compared to all the available content for this level range (25-35).

To sum this up, I welcome all new additions and upgrades but am a bit nervous some good existing things could end up less appealing in Turbine's effort to make them more popular.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

Interesting.

1 new skirmish, essentially 4 new endgame six-man instances and a revamp of Moria. <snip>

I don't think the instances are new, they appear to be old instances scaled to the level cap...

Originally Posted by Mark_J

I don't think the instances are new, they appear to be old instances scaled to the level cap...

That's why I said essentially new. How many people do you know that run Fornost at all these days?

Also, the page states that the instances are being updated too, so it's not like they're just slapping level 75 on all the mobs.

New skirmish? Neat.
Fornost revamp. Neat as well but we already knew that.
Moria revamp? Holy mother of … caves. (Although I hope it won't get too simple, I like its current maze-y nature)

This is really disappointing to hear Fornost has gone the way of Helegrod, Garth Agarwen and Great Barrows, getting gutted and ruined by splitting this now once epic instance into four pieces.

I do not understand why Turbine does this. These are classic spaces and running them were events akin to running a raid, but didn't require 12 or 24 people - helegrod notwithstanding.

Lotro is supposed to be first and formost about storytelling and these instances as they were had a flow and were an adventure in and of themselves. By breaking up the instances, not to mention not requiring us to actually travel to the instances, you break of the flow, the narrative of these places. You make them feel disjointed and more like skirmishes than what they were in the past.

I don't understand why you can't scale these spaces but leave them as they were. At this rate, I hope you never get around to CD, Uru and the Rift. Honestly, I'd rather run them under level and get the full experience instead of playing the hacked up half assed pseudo skirmish that the others have become.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Moria is one of those places in the game where we've discovered people have strong feelings one way or the other. We also heard a lot of feedback that even those who really love Moria had a sort of "love/hate" relationship with the place. So we're trying to make that more of a 'love/love'.

In other words, Moria becomes just another linear and boring zone? What a shame, it was perfect in its current state imo. An orc infested cavern should not be pleasant. If I was to change anything in Moria, I would only add more swift travels, and that's all.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

I do not understand why Turbine does this. These are classic spaces and running them were events akin to running a raid, but didn't require 12 or 24 people - helegrod notwithstanding.

Fornost (as it existed) is a classic space with serious design issues (the instance ranges from 36 to 42, depending on depth), with very little replay value. Perhaps 1 in 10 players have set foot in there in the past two years.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

New skirmish? Neat.
Fornost revamp. Neat as well but we already knew that.
Moria revamp? Holy mother of … caves. (Although I hope it won't get too simple, I like its current maze-y nature)

I do wonder what is being done to Moria. I actually think that the quests flow pretty well in there already, with perhaps the exception of the Epic book itself sometimes dragging you all over Moria rather than focusing on the part of Moria that you're likely questing in at the time.

Should be interesting to see. Looks like my 43 Hunter may finally get to leave the Craft Hall in Esteldin.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

This is really disappointing to hear Fornost has gone the way of Helegrod, Garth Agarwen and Great Barrows, getting gutted and ruined by splitting this now once epic instance into four pieces.

I do not understand why Turbine does this. These are classic spaces and running them were events akin to running a raid, but didn't require 12 or 24 people - helegrod notwithstanding.

Lotro is supposed to be first and formost about storytelling and these instances as they were had a flow and were an adventure in and of themselves. By breaking up the instances, not to mention not requiring us to actually travel to the instances, you break of the flow, the narrative of these places. You make them feel disjointed and more like skirmishes than what they were in the past.

I don't understand why you can't scale these spaces but leave them as they were. At this rate, I hope you never get around to CD, Uru and the Rift. Honestly, I'd rather run them under level and get the full experience instead of playing the hacked up half assed pseudo skirmish that the others have become.

I strongly agree with this one. +rep

I consider myself lucky that i've experienced Great Barrows, Helegrod, Garth Agarwen and Fornost before Turbine ruined them by dividing these instances.

It's actually pretty funny that they decided to revamp Moria now when there are two threads about it running right now. /tinfoilhat

Originally Posted by DavadaOT

Fornost (as it existed) is a classic space with serious design issues (the instance ranges from 36 to 42, depending on depth), with very little replay value. Perhaps 1 in 10 players have set foot in there in the past two years.

I agree with every point you make. Yet I still do not see how breaking up the instance attributes to correcting these issues.

I've never owned a 1965 mustang. But if someone were to give me the opportunity with a replica today, i'd enjoy it far more if it was built entirely from the 1965 design. I wouldn't want the 70's era fastback put on it, or the 90's door mouldings. All hacked up like that it'd still be a mustang replica, but it'd still be all hacked up.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

I do not understand why Turbine does this.

Because in its current state no one ever runs it. (I am a four year veteran and I have never seen the whole Fornost)

I feel a bit the same as Colorspecs, I am in favor of revamping instances, but I agree that Helegrod for example feels too chopped up now, and while the loot is fine it does still feel a bit of a hashed out semi-skirmish. Understandably some people want the timeframe cut down but to me that is what the 'lock' mechanic should actually be used for..rather than the seemingly bigger reason of slowing down the content for the raiding elite. PUGing of course is not particularly friendly to the locking mechanic but I think slowly with ToO T1 people are making it work more as intended.

Looking forward to seeing what's been done though. I really hope one day they scale CD/Uru and hopefully in the distant future the Rift....a Balrog after all should be an awesome fight (it was I loved it, best times ever, it was just kinda premature in the grand scheme at lvl 50). Anyway I hope these things comne to pass but like Colorspecs says, I really hope they leave them more in original form and epicness.

I like the concept of changes to old Fornost and Moria to make them more appealing but a number of people still have one question that hasn't been answered for i don't know how long anymore (what 7 months now?).... What about Hunters????

I mean i would hope that if hunter changes/weaknesses have been on the top of many forum section for a while now someone in Turbine would notice and would at least have the kindness to try and understand hunters are saying or at least explain why what they want is unreasonable.

The old longer instances are being broken up to accommodate the grown-ups among us who can't always commit to an instance lasting several hours. By chopping them into digestible chunks, they make the instances more practical for a lot of players who would otherwise be shut out by real life obligations.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Moria is one of those places in the game where we've discovered people have strong feelings one way or the other. We also heard a lot of feedback that even those who really love Moria had a sort of "love/hate" relationship with the place. So we're trying to make that more of a 'love/love'.

Well, it's awfully *dark* in there. If you've put a few more of those beautiful Dwarven crystal lamps back into operating condition, that would be great.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Because in its current state no one ever runs it. (I am a four year veteran and I have never seen the whole Fornost)

Fornost was never run a huge amount, I've done it four or five times right through. The reason I think was mostly that back when it was new, people who liked running instances were generally pushing towards CD/Uru. I remember doing it about a month after open beta and people in general just didn't understand mechanics enough in most pugs at lvl 39-ish (me in particular as first time MMOer) and consequently it would take sometimes 5hrs for gear that you levelled past spending the 5hrs just solo questing. So the lifespan of it was very short, in hindsight it probably should have been built as extra lvl 50 content in the first place, as after the initial play through people generally blew right through to farm CD/Uru for 6 man content, the time investment was more worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

That's why I said essentially new. How many people do you know that run Fornost at all these days?

Never mind these days, how about ever?

In 5 years, and with 8 characters who are past Fornost's (old) level I have ventured into the first part two or three times (the best being a pug run which fell apart when the tank insisted he get all the spirits), and once a year or so ago we managed to get enough kinnies "on-level" ie 28-35ish and did a full run. Once. From someone who makes all their characters do GB & GA in their entirety. It has just been too much hassle to bother.

So roll on the new Fornost

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

I agree with every point you make. Yet I still do not see how breaking up the instance attributes to correcting these issues.

I've never owned a 1965 mustang. But if someone were to give me the opportunity with a replica today, i'd enjoy it far more if it was built entirely from the 1965 design. I wouldn't want the 70's era fastback put on it, or the 90's door mouldings. All hacked up like that it'd still be a mustang replica, but it'd still be all hacked up.

I do think there's still a place for the old-fashioned dungeon crawl, but as some other people have been saying, the bite-sized chunks of instances (as most are these days) are far more accessible to the majority of players.

With Fornost reworked, that leaves Carn Dum and Urugarth as the last six-man instances that really fill the 'dungeon crawl' vibe. It'd be interesting to see if, when their number comes up, Turbine goes in a different direction.

The argument about fornost not being run has nothing to do with the content being broken up. It's being broken up for the devs belief that content must be shorter so more people run it, not the content's fun factor.

Its a classic quantity vs quality argument. Break it up into smaller chunks and more casual players will run it, and the numbers on the spreadsheet they look at get higher.

But is it any fun?

Its going to be just like Helegrod or GB where one wing has been identified as providing the most bang for the buck and spam run, with the storytelling and immersion that the space provides ignored. Yet ask most anyone what they love most about LOTRO and they'll resond, other than the landscape itself, that they so accurately depict, it's the Epic, and its story that keeps people hooked.

Story. Narrative. Having a beginning, a middle and an end. These old instances had them.

This game had it once, and not just while leveling. Its such a shame that Turbine has forgotten that this is the Lord of the Rings and instead they keep trying to shoe horn it into just another generic mmo. At least once the landscape questing is done.

Originally Posted by djheydt

Well, it's awfully *dark* in there. If you've put a few more of those beautiful Dwarven crystal lamps back into operating condition, that would be great.

I kind of hope they get those hidden crystal lamp doors in working order because it is sad that there are 3 instances in Moria that were only open during its closed beta.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Moria is one of those places in the game where we've discovered people have strong feelings one way or the other. We also heard a lot of feedback that even those who really love Moria had a sort of "love/hate" relationship with the place. So we're trying to make that more of a 'love/love'.

I hope that doesnt mean, making all the content there soloable. Taking away the challenge is not the only solution.
Of course this is Turbine's game, not mine, i know, i just felt the need to say as we have seen plenty of this in other areas in the past
Whatever you guys plan, i hope its fun and as always true to the books!

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

snip

Story is meaningless if no one is there to enjoy it. That is exactly the problem with Fornost, and as already been mentioned, simply raising the level won't do it as many players these days are people with jobs and responsibilities. The days where most MMO players are dedicated gamers who can stay online for 10+ hours non-stop are gone.

I wonder if they will ever try to revamp instances without resorting to chopping them up? We have very few lengthy fellowship instances that remain in the game and I do not want to see all of them in pieces. At least Carn Dum and Urugarth deserve better...

Storm on Methedras

Glad that they are doing this. The Old Woman of the Mountain was my first guess for the next skirmish to come.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

The argument about fornost not being run has nothing to do with the content being broken up. It's being broken up for the devs belief that content must be shorter so more people run it, not the content's fun factor.

Its a classic quantity vs quality argument. Break it up into smaller chunks and more casual players will run it, and the numbers on the spreadsheet they look at get higher.

But is it any fun?

I have run Fornost. The whole thing. On level, no less. Was it fun? Ugh, no. It was a time-consuming, tedious and overall, dull. Waves and waves of identical pulls and trash, most of the bosses were "bosses" of virtue of having more morale and dealing a bit more damage. They were just more trash. CD and Uru suffer from similar problems, imho. Then of course, there's the loot. Non-existent and certainly not worth the time spent slogging through the instance.

Its going to be just like Helegrod or GB where one wing has been identified as providing the most bang for the buck and spam run, with the storytelling and immersion that the space provides ignored. Yet ask most anyone what they love most about LOTRO and they'll resond, other than the landscape itself, that they so accurately depict, it's the Epic, and its story that keeps people hooked.

Story. Narrative. Having a beginning, a middle and an end. These old instances had them.

Fornost does not have that. The story is very minimal and barely noticeable. Now and again, you'll get some scraps thrown at you relating to the events happening within Fornost - having to rescue Sara Oakheart springs to mind, and I seem to recall that Angmariam Sorceress immediately before the final boss had some dialogue right before you killed her. But for the most part, its just not there.

Breaking the instance up =/= bad storytelling. Think of it like breaking up a long narrative into several shorter chapters. It gives people clear stopping points, they can put down the story when they want to take a break and come back to continue later. People wanting to experience the story can be rewarded by doing the instances in order - it would be fairly easy to put in a quest (or multiple quests) that guides players through each wing of Fornost.

This game had it once, and not just while leveling. Its such a shame that Turbine has forgotten that this is the Lord of the Rings and instead they keep trying to shoe horn it into just another generic mmo. At least once the landscape questing is done.

...What? The story aspect hasn't vanished from raids. Draigoch has a story to it. OD was the culmination of a rather epic storyarc spanning the entire instance cluster, and the entire Orthanc cluster *also* has a storyline, that climaxes on the pinnacle of Orthanc. Turbine hasn't stopped putting storylines with their raids.