I've recently received my 4 year LotRO portrait border and find it.... less than fulfulling. Thus, I've come to the decision to hang up my electronic bow. It's been a good run fellow hunters, but it's been a time coming. To be clear this isnt supposed to be a self aggrandizing or attention seeking thread so much as tendering my views on the game before I paddle away from the Grey Havens for the Undying Lands beyond. Hopefully it will crystallize some people's opinion on things... or at least cause one truly raging flame war .
I cannot really say there was any single thing that has led to this moment, but I won't lie and say that it had nothing to do with the state that hunters are in at present. Sure, a lot of my friends have moved on, but I continued to play anyway. I'm not a completionist, I don't want to spend another year getting a 75 in every class, every mount, and every deed done. My hunter and burglar are enough for me. I -am- a "challengist" though, and I simply don't find leveling a challenge so much as a month of tedium. The only thing left is the hardest end-game content. With that essentially completed (as much as it can be since it's so horribly unattainable to finish in current state) I don't have much else to do but think about more deeply understanding hunter game mechanics. Unfortunately, I suppose it's too hard to ignore the pointed neglect the class has received over the past year as I feel I largely already have probed this subject to exhaustion.
To be clear, I don't think that hunters are in the worst spot they've ever been, but it's not -that- far off from it. If people would take themselves back to Update 1, where hunters were easily at the their lowest of low states in my opinion, the class was underpowered DPS-wise, behind both champs and RKs for single target, with even less mobility and survivability. We had no melee stun, no interrupt (besides with an induction likely longer than the thing we're trying to interrupt), lackluster dps, and ZERO secondary role besides a range tank... which is the same thing as DPSing to be sure. We've come a long way since then, receiving dazing blow, a functional yellow CC line, useful capstones, blindside interrupt and better dps. Sounds awesome right? Unfortunately, all of those updates came back in Update 2... we're on update SIX. Since, we've received: an effective nerf of every stance except precision, two utterly useless skills, a significant upgrade of melee dps (as useless as that is), a mild bonus with scourging blow, a nice but ultimately un-ideal burst dps mechanic with imp. focus, a massive reduction of defenses in both direct and effective terms and a wonderful view of other classes getting some serious love. Wardens, notwithstanding every other class, have seen some very nice buffs... or at the very least, some -changes- if you don't like my view on it. It foments resentment, at least for me, anyway.
The very worst part of it all is that the dev doesn't seem to notice. I very much understand the realities of dev time constraints and priorities. I don't really blame them for prioritizing warden changes and adjusting RKs to account for new content. I do blame them for not communicating with the Hunter community. There has not been a peep from the blue names for months... not even an inkling that they care.
We haven't even gotten the fixes we've needed for a long time. Our bow auto-attack dev magnitudes STILL aren't using the right multiplier -years- late and our now nearly worthless ISotE is still only giving 4 ticks (pitifully small ones at that). You cannot for one second get me to consider those two simple fixes as too much work to not have squeezed in over the last several updates. This kind of lack of interest resonates. Yes, I admit neither of those make or break the class, I never said they did. They are just the tip of the dev-disinterest-iceberg though. We were last given ANY attention with the RoI update. In this we received a few nice buffs and some nerfs which were mentioned earlier. However it's left us in a poor situation in which Hunters are just not in a terribly good place. I'll qualify that statement later. The point is that the last contacts we've had as a community with our dev was a thread in which he seemed to pout a bit at the communities reluctance to have his bow and blade warrior, a Q&A that hinted at future changes... coupled with a little more borderline pouting about our pushback against change.... and then just nothing. Couple this with the hunter's shiny TWO new skills in RoI that were both so hastily lashed together in the last weeks before going live that we received two skills so underpowered that few people have them on their bars and fewer still actually use them. There have been updates since this, and neither of these skills have been adjusted in any way to make them useful. Okay, assume the devs were too busy to get around to doing this. Wait a second, they found enough time to nerf the ToO/Draigoch set/improved fleetness synergy a scant few weeks into the update killing that excuse along with one of the most exciting innovations to come out for the hunter in a very long time. They had plenty of time to devote a few dev cycles on the ONLY two new skills for hunters and make them useful.
**I'll take a moment and comment on Hunter's Art and Split Shot.
HA: This was an interesting thought to include, a stance specific skill output. It's a true pity that it was coupled to idiotic buffs and clunky class mechanic. The precision buff is a joke, the finesse gained from gear nearly zeros out or outright zeros out all avoidance as it stands, why would anyone waste three focus and ludicrously long animation on a lower damage skill for more of it? Why would anyone want the endurance buff that would return less power than the skill costs... over 20s at that? Why is a fast skill so slow? Why does a 10s CD higher power cost skill have so much less damage with so much more elapsed time than a no CD lower cost one? The devs might reply "the buffs", but the only one worth anything is the strength stance buff of +5% ranged damage modifier and quite frankly, strength stance sucks. (PvP people go away, I'm not talking to you right now; the buffs are clearly geared for DPS not bursting and CC, so I speak to its function in DPS). However, you've nearly halving your damage per elapsed time versus the penetrating shot in exchange for a 20s buffs of 5% that suffers diminishing returns compared to actual damage. *so you know, any flat +XX% ranged damage increase has diminishing returns in proportion to your existing ranged damage modifier* Any hunter with 100% ranged damage would only receive 2.5% more -actual- damage increase from the 5% buff. The concensus shows that S:Strength by itself is at least 10% less real world damage than using S:Precision thus, even if you sacrificed NO damage by using HA over PS in your rotation every time off CD and stacked it two high, your DPS loss from S:P to S:S would be ~10% and your net gain of DPS from HA would be 5% (@100% RO). So the idea is to switch stances, right? Well, our stance switch is tied to attack duration and takes the place of a normal speed skill (an induction attack) thus making us sacrifice a focus generating, damage dealing attack with a stance switch..... and then have to do it again to get back into S:P. It's cumbersome, slow and REALLY clunky. There is NO WAY that skill will be useful until they attach MUCH better bonuses, damage or reduced costs to warrant its use over blood arrow/PS/merciful shot.
Split Shot:
This shot takes the same amount of induction time as Swift Bow, does less damage than a quick shot per target, MIGHT hit 4 targets, usually less, doesn't generate as much focus as ISB nor IQS, has a terrible 10s CD BUT has an awesome animation. This skill needs more damage, more focus, more radius or an additional buff.... possibly all four. Getting a set bonus to TRY and tease hunters into using is an insult. Set bonuses shouldn't be fixing flawed skills (burgs, you hear me, Well Placed Strike anyone?)
Back to the subject at hand. Both skills are half baked and simply didn't make release time so were nerfed so thickly that they couldn't possibly wind up being OP and cause an uproar later. That in and of itself is bad. Really bad, bad enough to sour the milk buoying up my cheerios... but the fact they've been allowed to languish as useless as they are still is like a colony of ants invading my Cheerios at the same time. Again, don't get me wrong, our class is not broken from the lack of these useless skills, it's the dev's attitude toward the class (or complete lack thereof). It's insulting to be honest. My dollar to pay for the game is as good as anyone elses, why should I suffer being completely ignored? I have, and for too long unfortunately for Turbine's bottom line.
Sadly, it doesn't really end there. Itemization. Need I say more? Coming into RoI, the devs, I don't know.... completely forgot that agility classes existed. The crafted agility gear basically didn't exist. The jewelry was even worse. And then the drop rates on agi items was low (while warden items dropped like candy from a pinata) with every Tom, Merry and Pippen in the Skraid rolling on the lone agi earring drop. Example, I was forced to wear the purple epic earring all the way until Great River ensured me one. I could count on one hand how many agi earrings dropped and you know how many I won the roll on... Yeesh. If I wasn't sure how little concern the devs had for hunters up until that point, I was convinced then. We are, at best, an afterthought in the devs' minds... through and through. Itemization has improved, yes, but not after a painfully long period of waiting for hunters and burgs... mostly hunters because our dps doesn't scale quite as nicely as burgs (I'll decline to elaborate on this). Even so, our one shining moment of the stacked improved fleetness buffs has come and gone almost instantly, and what is our reward for suffering this? Watching burglars receive the most ridiculously good PvE set in game history. Bring that 5/5 set bonus out of the Moors armor into a raid and suddenly a Burg is looking at a near permanent +20% crit CHANCE. Are. You. Kidding. Me. For hunters, crit chance increases dps almost linearly with crit chance. +5% crit chance leads to roughly +5% more actual damage (this varies but lets ignore that for now). For burgs and their crit chain, that's likely better than linear. At worst, it's a 20% damage buff....20%.....TWENTY PER-CENT. As it was, burglars were far too close to hunters in DPS, after a 20% boost, there is no conceivable way for a hunter to compete against a like geared and played burglar. On top of that, burglars are twice as useful...
Importantly, burglars have a 100% threat dump in HIPS, a DPS stance that default reduces threat more than hunter's book (3-4%... possibly less) and a DPS boost as a result of coming out of stealth on the next attack... did I mention they have a bunch of oh %^&* buttons too? Keep in mind, I -have- a capped burglar and I'm still disgusted. Other DPS all around have better aggro control, while we have a stance that neuters our DPS to take advantage of of the threat reduction (that doesn't reduce our overall threat but curbs our future threat generation) that is exceptionally clunky to change in and out of and a 10s non-threat down aggro shedder. Even if we wanted to compete with that burglar, we'd need FAR better threat shedding than we have just to stay away from being skewered with our nerfed defenses.
Even if I ignored all else, there is always the staff itself. Has anyone ever had a GM actually help them with something that really mattered? I bet that ratio of Yes to No is vanishingly small. I won't bother to expound, I'm certain most people won't need a long monolog to feel it's true that Turbine customer service is among the worst in any MMO they've experienced. I'll leave it at that and say, that it's just another signal that Turbine doesn't give a squat about me as a customer and player... completing the circle that's made it so that I'm writing this post out.
That being said, please discuss what I've said, I could go on a lot longer about a lot more than what I have but it'd just serve to make this already long post longer to little more effect. I'm going to monitor this thread for a while and might be enticed to respond but outside of that, goodbye forums. My account will be put on F2P and I'll raid a while longer so my kin won't be short handed for the moment.... but I am done with this game. Good luck all, and keep hunting.
TLDR - I don't think the devs and staff care about hunters, or customers for that matter. Hunters aren't where I think they should be in relation to other classes and are largely an afterthought, for a lot of reasons. Thus, goodbye fellow stalkers of prey, may your bows sing with the death of the wicked.
Last edited by Thraxz1982; May 02 2012 at 08:16 PM.
Well I left the game for similar reasons, coupled with the whole Store stuff. Also I don't see most of seasoned hunters post on the forums much anymore, there is simply no incentive. When you see the bugs that were reported almost year ago are not fixed, or are not even in the "known issues list", why the hell would you care?
Important thing to realize is turbine does not care anymore to build a community and nurture players to be loyal. They just need random people who will play as little as possible and spend as much as possible in the store.
Also I don't understand how can mmorpg company in current time be so uptight and non-communicative with regards to its customers.
I don't want to go on an on about bashing turbine, I just wish good luck and patience to everyone who is still playing. I like to visit these forums as they were always above the standard compared to other mmo games, but what I see when I pop back from time to time is not looking good.
Later dude. I play the game for the lore and the story that Turbine has created and I've been thoroughly enjoying it for the last 4 years. I personally don't care if my characters' classes get that extra 5% DOT or extra 2 second cool down on a particular skill.
Hope you find better luck in a different game. Hasta.
Something about this game seems to burn out anyone who has a remote interest in the mechanics of the game, and I think the hunter class is the worst. I recall making a very similar post quite a while back, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one to do so.
Good luck and all that jazz. Was good having you on the boards.
A sad day indeed, I am barely hanging in, although for the first time since this game came out, a game I am firmly intent on seeing the end of, although I'm sure that will be in the very distant future, I actually have allowed myself to buy another game. (one of the yet another it's gonna kill LOTRO PvP games-I don't believe it but anyway, I it's wierd I even agreed)
Anyhow, one part of your admirable post really stood out to me because it's exactly how I feel, it's one of the things that is permanently in my mind while I'm spending all my time levelling other stuff so I'll quote it. Many people are thrilled with the hunter now seemingly, and I guess we can do some cool stuff..I love pew pew with the Faron set and blazing through my power in emergency..but that's a loot bonus more than a class mechanic. To me it just screams poor attention and frankly lack of pride in a product. Regardless of how you feel about the class, Hunters art was a major addition with RoI and it's just awful. Split Shot not much if at all better...and this was all talked about pre it's release..of course someone said if it doesn't work right, it can easily be fixed...OK, when? probably just in time for a new level cap and continued evolution where we will sit..well if history is judge I'll guess where.
Originally Posted by Thraxz1982
**I'll take a moment and comment on Hunter's Art and Split Shot.
HA: This was an interesting thought to include, a stance specific skill output. It's a true pity that it was coupled to idiotic buffs and clunky class mechanic. The precision buff is a joke, the finesse gained from gear nearly zeros out or outright zeros out all avoidance as it stands, why would anyone waste three focus and ludicrously long animation on a lower damage skill for more of it? Why would anyone want the endurance buff that would return less power than the skill costs... over 20s at that? Why is a fast skill so slow? Why does a 10s CD higher power cost skill have so much less damage with so much more elapsed time than a no CD lower cost one? The devs might reply "the buffs", but the only one worth anything is the strength stance buff of +5% ranged damage modifier and quite frankly, strength stance sucks....
Why indeed.
I like to think Trbine actually thinks about stuff, but honestly it gets hard to see how they do sometimes. Off-topic..Bound Jewellery from lootboxes, who in their right mind I ask ya, I have visions of the episode of Simpsons where Monty Burns says "It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times!"
With one exception, it is now months since I last raided. My hunter is a member of a raiding kin, and there are barely any hunters left in the kin.
Still, I rarely get a spot in the group as they simply have no need for our lack luster...well.. everything.
The few times I have gotten a place, I had to trait all yellow, and I only got the spot because we did not have enough LMs around.
So I wonder why I even bother to play any more.
We are not useful anymore, and our developer does not care. It is just sad.
With every update I check info on new jewelry and get disapointed every time. One or two very rare drops are agility drops, the rest is worthless to hunters. Result? Other classes "max" our their characters much earlier than the hunters.
Legacies also frustrates me. While other classes have one legacy to say increase crit, reduce threat etc. we consistently have two. Result? The cost is double for us. (And even worse, since the initial cost is also greater than the matching legacy of other classes). Second "cost" is that our legacy points are finite, so we get less points than everyone else, since we have to buy twice as well. Thirdly, since we only have have six legacies, we "use up" more slots than other classes.
I especially distest the epic quets which has rewards for all classes - *except* the hunters.
(Other classes got a class quest item and the Warden got a compensation (not a good one, but still). Hunters however got zip. We had to take a poor ixp rune or something useless).
I see there is another thread about making out concerns known, but really? Why bother? It is not like they will suddenly start to listen. They haven't so far.
My hunter has very good gear and all in all I my class well, but my crits rarely go higher than 1600, and my max crit (a devastating) was some 6000. There isn't a single group I have been in where I do not read a tell from one in the group how has some a crit of 8000 or a deva of over 10.000.
And down goes another longtime hunter and community member.
Who's left? No offense to you new guys or those of you over from codemasters, but other than Sey, are there any active hunters that have been playing and participating in the forums for longer than three years still around?
I've been playing for 5 years and am still around. That being said, I rolled other classes once I realized how downhill hunters are going.
Hope you find a more enjoyable place where ever you go Thraxz
Edit: Never really participated in forums much before a year or so ago because I found them just plain time-consuming and a place to QQ and nothing more. Can't say I really found much more, but there are some that I think are the once in a blue moon kinda suggestions that should be listened to... and of course are not.
That blows. I always enjoy your posts- definitely one of the best contributors to the forums. I'd give you more rep for your parting salvo but alas I have to spread some around first.
Well said Thraxz. I actually read your whole post because I've always enjoyed our discussions on these forums. I hear all you're saying and I feel the same way in many respects. Looking all all the old names who've posted here shows that your opinions and contributions have been many and have been positive. I think I've argued a topic with about everyone who's posted and the best part is that there's been mutual respect throughout. For that reason its sad to see you go.
I've played LOTRO hard for a long time. It has been my escape from a busy life. Its been my thing when I've wanted to relax and have fun with friends. That being said, I've logged on twice in three weeks to fill in for raids. The game isn't fun for me anymore.... at .... all. I love to PvP, and more specifically solo when I can. I've never enjoyed PvP less than now on my hunter. Unless I see some sort of glimmer of improvement from the devs, I'll likely hang things up and cancel both my subs.
Its just not fun anymore on a hunter, so I don't blame you Thraxz.
I myself am beginning to come to this same point with the current state of our Hunters.
We have an awol Dev. that apparently is so thin skinned he left in utter embarassment at the shellacking he took with the introduction of Hunters Fart and Split #### skills (well deserved shellacking imo too).
I don't think we are going to see any improvements until a new Dev. is assigned to our class.
Things are so bad now my Kinship leader will only take Hunters in raids if he has no other choice for DPS.
It's extremely depressing to think about.
And how do we do that given that any petition we have to remove our current dev is censored as against community guidelines? Come on guys, some ideas here
(P.S. Soloed a tree in LG in 5b/2r the other day, no yellows. Farming rep stuff for my fail warden)
We have an awol Dev. that apparently is so thin skinned he left in utter embarassment at the shellacking he took with the introduction of Hunters Fart and Split #### skills (well deserved shellacking imo too).
He didn't just leave after the shellacking. He pledged to leave us in this state.
The above was posted on the RK forums after U6. But the message was clear to the hunters:
"The absolute best way to get your class marginalized is to publicly and constantly exclaim how weak it is, how worthless it is in raids, how much of a charity case it is to group with them."
There's two ways to interpret that. One for the RK's and one for the hunters:
1) The best way to make the LOTRO community not want your class in raids is to tell everyone that your class is no good in raids. You create the perception, you define the reality. Stop bashing your class to everyone around you and everyone around you will stop thinking your class is weak.
This is flawed for all kinds of reasons, particularly because if we know the class is weak its because we play it and just because someone is on another class, doesn't mean they don't also play this same "weakend" class; especially in the case of hunters where everyone and their brother has a hunter alt.
2) Keep complaining, and no one is going to fix you.
Now, this post by ZC was made at the exact same time we in the hunter forums were making posts calling for his removal as our dev. In fact his post begins with "ZC stands now, no masks, no gimmicks, for maybe the last time"
Why maybe for the last time? Maybe he's saying that because at the exact same time the moderators are descending on the hunter forums and trying to clear out petitions asking for his head? ZC warning the RK's he may be taking his ball and going home? Where have we heard that before?
But anyway, if this: "The absolute best way to get your class marginalized is to publicly and constantly exclaim how weak it is, how worthless it is in raids, how much of a charity case it is to group with them." is a double entendre slap in the face to hunters, like it seemed to be when read in the historical context of what was going on in the hunters forums with him at the exact same time he posted in the RK forums, then we're ####ed anyway and all the threads and ideas and suggestions won't mean a thing.
Now, this post by ZC was made at the exact same time we in the hunter forums were making posts calling for his removal as our dev. In fact his post begins with "ZC stands now, no masks, no gimmicks, for maybe the last time"
That´s quite a bit of over-interpretation
In fact, he made a little theater play (which ended with this post) out of his RK teasers and said no more than that he may not post for a while on the RK forum (he did, answering questions, one about LMs and the other one was his Lvl 20 RK guide)
In fact, he made a little theater play (which ended with this post) out of his RK teasers and said no more than that he may not post for a while on the RK forum (he did, answering questions, one about LMs and the other one was his Lvl 20 RK guide)
Is it? As I said it's in the context of when this post was made and what was happening here it lines up ominously.
The last time he spoke with the hunter community is was in the Guide for ZC thread and he intimated at the barest minimum that he'd move the interrupt on blindesie to the front of the animation.
9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.
That was five months ago. We haven't heard from him since and even that change hasn't been made.
I think it's come to the point now where if any changes are made, it will make ZC look like he's caving to the hunter community. The inmates are in charge of the asylum.
Bye Thrax, I always enjoyed reading your posts on here! I agree with most everything you mentioned in your post, but I'm going to keep on truckin' along myself....after all LOTRO is my favorite MMO, and hunter is still my favorite class!
Thank you all for the farewells. Seeing so many of the older names pop up in this thread is/was touching. I do appreciate the way the thread was received. A lot have gotten quite ugly in the past and am heartened by this one.
In coming back to read all of this, I did notice Bastiat's very nicely done threat down post (I'm glad he did it, because I had started the same project and came to the same conclusions but did not have good enough data to back it up) and was moved to dig up my old spreadsheets I've used and publish them in a thread after this. May you guys use them to better effect than I did. Look for that thread soon.
Preface: not a fanboy--not even close, look around the forums--nor am I 100% in love with what Turbs has done with my class. But c'mon guys, things are not as bad as everyone's making them out to be.
Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is about, and I've been here since the open beta. I agree with the points about single-target DPS and the yellow line being useless for so long, but things have gotten better. Remember that first giant DPS nerf during Moria? Or was it just before? I don't remember precisely. I do remember things taking a lot longer to fall over and die. I also remember the updates last year, which forced all the heavy hitters to trait 5 red and burn a legendary trait AND a legacy just to get BH back to where it was. I also recall the way they slowed our inductions to a crawl, and I've had to adapt and rethink how to play the class at each of those changes, just like the rest of you no doubt have done.
But now? Right now? I'm the happiest I've been with my hunter since I rolled him, mainly for the fixes to fleetness and the blue line, coupled with the kind of DPS possible with these and the change in how stats work (up to almost 31k physical mastery unbuffed here), I'd say we're doing a lot better as a class. I can understand not being able to come up with multiple roles for hunters. I mean, we shoot arrows. The only possible expansion of our role is the inclusion of pets for things like off-tanking, or perhaps more useful CC skills (distracting shot is a joke). Then again, have you guys looked at your skill bar lately? There's not much room to grow here. I have a use for nearly all the skills there. Well, except for the fear shout which doesn't work half the time. That one is pretty pathetic.
The improvement I'd like to see, and I think we all agree on this, is to stand out as THE single-target DPS class once again. It's annoying to hear about champs critting for 13k. THIRTEEN THOUSAND. Even when I'm traited red I don't hit that, and what do champs excel at? AoE DPS. Yeah, that's obnoxious. Still, c'mon guys. We're doing a lot better than we're letting on, and yeah, even though we got a little squishier in the last upgrade, at least we're not Moria-era hunters. Maybe there's a pathology to all this, in that the persistent nerfing and screwing with our class in detrimental ways has left us in a collective state of neurosis. I feel it too, but things have gotten better.
"The absolute best way to get your class marginalized is to publicly and constantly exclaim how weak it is, how worthless it is in raids, how much of a charity case it is to group with them."
There's two ways to interpret that. One for the RK's and one for the hunters:
1) The best way to make the LOTRO community not want your class in raids is to tell everyone that your class is no good in raids. You create the perception, you define the reality. Stop bashing your class to everyone around you and everyone around you will stop thinking your class is weak.
This is flawed for all kinds of reasons, particularly because if we know the class is weak its because we play it and just because someone is on another class, doesn't mean they don't also play this same "weakend" class; especially in the case of hunters where everyone and their brother has a hunter alt.
2) Keep complaining, and no one is going to fix you.
...
But anyway, if this: "The absolute best way to get your class marginalized is to publicly and constantly exclaim how weak it is, how worthless it is in raids, how much of a charity case it is to group with them." is a double entendre slap in the face to hunters, like it seemed to be when read in the historical context of what was going on in the hunters forums with him at the exact same time he posted in the RK forums, then we're ####ed anyway and all the threads and ideas and suggestions won't mean a thing.
While I personally have no problem with Hunters asking for something to be done with their class(after all, everyone likes new things from time to time), I take issue with personal attacks against the devs(regardless of what they have done). I understand this group is unhappy with how ZC has been running the class recently, but why are some obsessed with the idea that he is out to get the class into some sort of trouble. While I am sure he does have some leeway in how he spends his time working on the classes I am also sure that his bosses would not let him never work on hunters again unless for some strange reason they think that hunters should never be worked on again, by anyone. At most the 'shellacking' would prevent him from wanting to post on the Hunter Forums/take ideas from you guys, it would not prevent him from working on the class presuming he has been told too/had the time to over his other assignments(as that is his job after all unless Turbine did actually change the dev and just has not told you, in which case they are also not talking/updating you).
The main thing I find odd about the whole hunter's lack of changes is that they have not even fixed some of your bugs(such as changing the timing of blindside interrupt or adding the last tick in that skill you guys keep talking about). Hopefully you will get your deserved changes soon, but unless I am mistaken you must now wait for the next patch or till RoR for any sort of update. Sincerest luck in getting what you want/deserve, happy Hunting.
The main thing I find odd about the whole hunter's lack of changes is that they have not even fixed some of your bugs(such as changing the timing of blindside interrupt or adding the last tick in that skill you guys keep talking about).
Don't forget Heartseeker being parried or evaded despite the tooltip which says it cannot be parried or evaded. ¬_¬
Preface: not a fanboy--not even close, look around the forums--nor am I 100% in love with what Turbs has done with my class. But c'mon guys, things are not as bad as everyone's making them out to be.
I would suggest that this is because you do not PvP. Your sig says you're rank 4. If you looked at the changes to the class with respect to the Moors you'd see how rough it is. For PvE, hunter is not great, but not wretched/unplayably bad. We aren't top DPSers, despite some people's attempts to post "normal" parses where they had 5 burgs, but forget to mention it.
Originally Posted by sevrid
But now? Right now? I'm the happiest I've been with my hunter since I rolled him, mainly for the fixes to fleetness and the blue line, coupled with the kind of DPS possible with these and the change in how stats work (up to almost 31k physical mastery unbuffed here), I'd say we're doing a lot better as a class.
You need to compare the hunter to other classes. Every update one of these hunters shows up on forums saying how amazing hunters are now and how hard they hit, only to forget that EVERYONE else hits much harder and are "amazing" now. Again, if you're the happiest you've been with your hunter since you rolled it, you sir clearly do not compete against excellent end-game players for top-DPS parses in PvE nor do you PvP. If you enjoy being happy with being an average among averages, carry on, and ignore me.
Heh, how can I tell you didn't bother reading what you were responding to? ¬_¬ And what's with all this "you, you, you" BS? You assume too much.
Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr
I would suggest that this is because you do not PvP. Your sig says you're rank 4. If you looked at the changes to the class with respect to the Moors you'd see how rough it is.
That's because this isn't a PvP game, the PvMP was added almost as if it were an afterthought, and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Proof? The classes are horribly imbalanced against each other, especially where hunters are concerned (even against their supposed counterpart, the BA). I know how rough it is, guy. That's why I don't usually bother. Fixing hunters in the Moors requires revamping PvMP. Not gonna happen. Congrats on your R14 Hunter. I respect the dedication, but that's a time sink most of us don't want to commit to a broken system.
For PvE, hunter is not great, but not wretched/unplayably bad. We aren't top DPSers, despite some people's attempts to post "normal" parses where they had 5 burgs, but forget to mention it.
Identified this problem already.
Every update one of these hunters shows up on forums saying how amazing hunters are now and how hard they hit, only to forget that EVERYONE else hits much harder and are "amazing" now.
One of these hunters? Guess you're referring to me, huh.
Funny, every time I log into the hunter forums, it's a conga line of hunters crying about how the devs must secretly hate them (and, given the frequency and intensity of it all, I wouldn't blame them if they do). That's why I prefer to lurk rather than mingle. I acknowledged the problems with the class, didn't say they were suddenly amazing (for instance, even with the only thing that could conceivably pass for a buff in our update history, we still wound up with the medium armor nerf). What did I actually say? That it's not as bad as all the whiners are letting on, and certainly not the nadir of this class's performance. Seriously, read what you're responding to. That's so disrespectful.
I think what I'm seeing here is an expression of the pathology I referred to; a pathological commitment to the belief that your class has nothing to recommend to it. Hey, can't say I blame you, but that doesn't make it true.
Again, if you're the happiest you've been with your hunter since you rolled it, you sir clearly do not compete against excellent end-game players for top-DPS parses in PvE nor do you PvP. If you enjoy being happy with being an average among averages, carry on, and ignore me.
I dunno, 31k unbuffed PM *is* pretty low, despite being regularly tapped for end-game material. But you're probably right, I must be some noob who doesn't know what he's doing, because I make apples-to-apples comparisons with other hunters instead of expressing digital ##### envy toward other classes.
Preface: not a fanboy--not even close, look around the forums--nor am I 100% in love with what Turbs has done with my class. But c'mon guys, things are not as bad as everyone's making them out to be.
Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is about, and I've been here since the open beta. I agree with the points about single-target DPS and the yellow line being useless for so long, but things have gotten better. Remember that first giant DPS nerf during Moria? Or was it just before? I don't remember precisely. I do remember things taking a lot longer to fall over and die. I also remember the updates last year, which forced all the heavy hitters to trait 5 red and burn a legendary trait AND a legacy just to get BH back to where it was. I also recall the way they slowed our inductions to a crawl, and I've had to adapt and rethink how to play the class at each of those changes, just like the rest of you no doubt have done.
But now? Right now? I'm the happiest. - I feel it too, but things have gotten better.
Mhm i will leave the changes during SOA out, since i barely remember the details (Mind you not what the patch notes state but what they really did represent). But one thing burned deep into my mind.
Stat changes and the butchering of class dynamic due to the fallacy of "three" color traitlines.
Yes there it is, i really do blame the guy who thought every class needs (and is capable to support) three traitlines. YES I DO REMEMBER THE GOOD DAYS OF HAVING 27% CRIT AND IN COMBAT TRAPS WHILE EVADING EVERY THIRD HIT. (Yes i shouted).
But this wasn't enough of a "NERF" with Moria. Initially every stat (now rating) got at least cut down between 40% to 60%. Which made everyone and especially us gimped at lvl50. (Crit rate went overnight from 27% (well 28%) to 11%.
Though after obtaining the Blue Moria set and jewellry we turned out strong in terms of DPS numbers but certainly not in terms of DMG to Health ratio in comparsion to SOA, mainly because we have been limited at 15% crit chance (few if not a handfull even had full 15%) at lvl60.
(Oh yes i duoed grand stairs with a captain early moria, before the infamous book7 in 5red + BH), yes i "tanked" two watcher tentacles and even other bosses in DN. But nothing of this was like SOA. Just because i could make my HP pool big enough with acid mitigation it does not equal 22% evade + 20 % parry like in the soa days. Because when i HS critted for 15k without mindstrel or captain buffs it did not equal the regular Damage of 27% crit rate back in SOA during the whole course of a fight.
And let's not mention those skill "buffs" like the inital three shots of SWIFT BOW..oh if i only never upgraded...
And then.....Book7. I'm not saying the nerf was uncalled for but within the _broken_ way of caps during the infamous stat changes which Moria brought us we got shafted again, for the sake of analogy i would say we have been:
SOA (100%) > (75% Moria) > (65% Moria B7).
I don't want to write an epic lengthly post between the minor "tweaks" during the past years to the state
But let's just say before ROI i feeled like at least 80% of SOA. Mainly because the First Age lvl65 DPS really burned down enemies fast enough in comparison to SOA days, and the second coming of the Hele armor set bonus lvl65 with 5 Blue.
With ROI i finally -almost- felt like SOA again. 25% crit (well now a little over ) - check
High Evade of 20+ % - check
But what's that?
- Medium Armor mitigation down (I personally don't mind it - but for the sake of comparison)
- They butchered my Focus burn amount. (Yes in SOA i prefered Hele armor over Rift if i could choose ((damn shadow damage from Thaurlach))), nerfed my Trait and gave me a set again for compensation with U5.
Final thought (and i'm being generious) 90% SOA.
For me, people can claim all they want, but looking over the past 5 years, we are still not recovered from the Moria "happening". Maybe with Rohan we may be back at 100% SOA. (Maybe if they don't kill another Trait).
I'd be painting my hunter purple the day we actually get "buffs" and not some damage repair & maintenance of the moria incident.
Last edited by SungXe; May 07 2012 at 04:19 AM.
|l /=/ From Codemasters over Turbine to Mordor \=\ l|
Sorry, you were just the only person who seemed ok with the current state of the hunter, and I was just trying to find the reason why. Your gear seemed fine, so I could only look at PvMP rank, since that was the next step in my mind. I couldn't understand how a hunter who PvPed alot felt like the class was in a good place.
Originally Posted by sevrid
That's because this isn't a PvP game, the PvMP was added almost as if it were an afterthought, and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.
This is one of my favorite arguments from the PvE-only crowd. Check the PvMP daily stats site. There's about 10000 regular weekly PvPers. This game might not be a PvP game for you, but for 10000+ people per week, it is.
Originally Posted by sevrid
Fixing hunters in the Moors requires revamping PvMP. Not gonna happen.
Absolutely disagree here. What is your basis for this argument? While the Moors may need fixing in general, just fixing hunters in PvP would not require a full revamp of PvMP. That statement that shows you know very little about PvP in this game.
Originally Posted by sevrid
I dunno, 31k unbuffed PM *is* pretty low, despite being regularly tapped for end-game material. But you're probably right, I must be some noob who doesn't know what he's doing.
Again, for PvE, gearing/traiting/building you don't seem off target. A majority of the dissent from hunters primarily comes from PvPers. Since you clearly don't PvP on your hunter, I wouldn't expect you to understand these hunter's arguments. It just shows that you haven't experienced the aggravation that alot of other people have had to endure. I'm just saying that a PvE-centric argument that hunters are "fine", doesn't carry over to PvP.
Originally Posted by sevrid
*looks at Join date*
Oh, wait.
Joined date unfortunately doesn't necessarily contribute to perspective, experience, nor intelligence. But, you knew that right?, you've been around for a long time.
This was a nice little thread to send Thrax off. Too bad it got hijacked by guys that could have posted their "Hunters are fine" comments in about 30 other threads on the subject. I find it a little disrespectul actually given that Thrax isn't just some forum nob but probably one of the best guys in the game at disecting and understanding his class. It's a shame.
Edit: for some reason the forums say this was posted at 9:43 pm yesterday even though I posted it 2 minutes ago at 8:47 pm on the 7th - weird.
Ooh, QQ Trolled followed by a coy attempt to insult my intelligence. Well played, QQ Troll. Well played. /blocked
In other news, does anyone else find it ironic that a guy with a rank 14 hunter cries so much about how the Moors aren't fair? Pfff. I've seen his list of top-ranked PvMP players, and couldn't help but notice that not only do the highest ranks belong almost exclusively to hunters, hunters as a class are the most highly-represented class on the list. Forgive me if I find arguments about how terrible the Moors is for hunters... unconvincing and QQ-ish.
In other news, does anyone else find it ironic that a guy with a rank 14 hunter cries so much about how the Moors aren't fair? Pfff. I've seen his list of top-ranked PvMP players, and couldn't help but notice that not only do the highest ranks belong almost exclusively to hunters, hunters as a class are the most highly-represented class on the list. Forgive me if I find arguments about how terrible the Moors is for hunters... unconvincing and QQ-ish.
I dont, PvMP has been out for 5 years and RoI has been out for what, 8 or 9 months?
It was RoI and the massive changes to stats, DPS, finesse and audacity that has changed the hunter from a class that did nice DPS and could take some beating to the glasscanon it is today.
Hunters are still in the top 3 when it comes to earning renown as fast as possible but they do so with a lot more deaths than other classes do, which makes it quite annoying to play a hunter in the moors. You also find yourself to be the primary target of creeps most of the time (not that I blame them, I'd go for the hunters as well) and that can be extremely annoying at times.
changed the hunter from a class that did nice DPS and could take some beating to the glasscanon it is today.
Eh, I don't think it was just RoI. SungXe's post outlines the history of what has happened pretty well. Squishiness and the nerfing of the trait that lowered focus costs were the two big ones that ticked me off. With regards to DPS changes in RoI, is it possible that we weren't nerfed this time around, but the other classes simply benefited more from the change? That's where I am in my thought process. It's as if whatever they did to us in Moria just lingered and stunted our growth in future updates.
Could be wrong. It's not like we ever received an explanation.
Hunters are still in the top 3 when it comes to earning renown as fast as possible but they do so with a lot more deaths than other classes do, which makes it quite annoying to play a hunter in the moors. You also find yourself to be the primary target of creeps most of the time (not that I blame them, I'd go for the hunters as well) and that can be extremely annoying at times.
Egads! Criticism which acknowledges the advantages of hunters! I wish I could shake your hand!
Targeting: I've noticed this in the Moors and have had it confirmed creepside. When there's an effective raid leader calling out target, we (hunters) tend to nuke them pretty fast. There's nothing that can be done devside with regard to creep tactics, but they could restore our ability to take a beating or pony up some morale with those high-agi pieces. I have man-heals so I usually don't think about press-ownward, but maybe the induction can be done away with.
One thing I've found useful to compensate is to grind the extra tokens for the Empowered Anduin Martyr's set. It gives you a 2.7k bubble and then a 2k heal when it expires. I find it more useful to to equip morale gear/jewelry anyway since 31k PM isn't going to keep me from being targeted by creeps who see 6k morale, y'know?
Still, I don't think this justifies all the bitching and moaning that goes on in these forums. I rarely go to the Moors except for post-raid victory laps. It isn't nearly as bad as people are letting on. Even taking more deaths doesn't convince me. No repair bills, and the only thing you get from it is improved K/D ratio, which is meaningless, especially in a PvE-oriented game. There are no other advantages to it. It's a meaningless statistic. I would advise a rethinking of priorities to anyone who does attach much meaning to it.
One thing I've found useful to compensate is to grind the extra tokens for the Empowered Anduin Martyr's set. It gives you a 2.7k bubble and then a 2k heal when it expires. I find it more useful to to equip morale gear/jewelry anyway since 31k PM isn't going to keep me from being targeted by creeps who see 6k morale, y'know?
Just so you know, you cannot use clickies in the Moors.
Preface: not a fanboy--not even close, look around the forums--nor am I 100% in love with what Turbs has done with my class. But c'mon guys, things are not as bad as everyone's making them out to be.
Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is about, and I've been here since the open beta. I agree with the points about single-target DPS and the yellow line being useless for so long, but things have gotten better. Remember that first giant DPS nerf during Moria? Or was it just before? I don't remember precisely. I do remember things taking a lot longer to fall over and die. I also remember the updates last year, which forced all the heavy hitters to trait 5 red and burn a legendary trait AND a legacy just to get BH back to where it was. I also recall the way they slowed our inductions to a crawl, and I've had to adapt and rethink how to play the class at each of those changes, just like the rest of you no doubt have done.
But now? Right now? I'm the happiest I've been with my hunter since I rolled him, mainly for the fixes to fleetness and the blue line, coupled with the kind of DPS possible with these and the change in how stats work (up to almost 31k physical mastery unbuffed here), I'd say we're doing a lot better as a class. I can understand not being able to come up with multiple roles for hunters. I mean, we shoot arrows. The only possible expansion of our role is the inclusion of pets for things like off-tanking, or perhaps more useful CC skills (distracting shot is a joke). Then again, have you guys looked at your skill bar lately? There's not much room to grow here. I have a use for nearly all the skills there. Well, except for the fear shout which doesn't work half the time. That one is pretty pathetic.
The improvement I'd like to see, and I think we all agree on this, is to stand out as THE single-target DPS class once again. It's annoying to hear about champs critting for 13k. THIRTEEN THOUSAND. Even when I'm traited red I don't hit that, and what do champs excel at? AoE DPS. Yeah, that's obnoxious. Still, c'mon guys. We're doing a lot better than we're letting on, and yeah, even though we got a little squishier in the last upgrade, at least we're not Moria-era hunters. Maybe there's a pathology to all this, in that the persistent nerfing and screwing with our class in detrimental ways has left us in a collective state of neurosis. I feel it too, but things have gotten better.
I am in your boat all the way. Exactly my thoughts from a PvE point of view.
I have to admit I really like the new game mechanics with high or no caps at all and stacking my main stat...at last I feel character evolution and progress again.
I already know too, that not everything is perfect. We could need some additional group support (buffs or debuffs), we have to watch the dps department with close eyes to not let rogues and champions get to far in front of us (although they are melee classes who deliver their damage at higher risk usually) and we really could use some selfheal component or some other defence mechanism for the EMs.
...but I really see no reason for this amount of QQ here.
auta i lome aure entuluva
Silmahad - Elf Hunter 75 (+ 6 x 75)
Hecki Hecki Pateng
Vanyar
Still, I don't think this justifies all the bitching and moaning that goes on in these forums. I rarely go to the Moors except for post-raid victory laps. It isn't nearly as bad as people are letting on. Even taking more deaths doesn't convince me. No repair bills, and the only thing you get from it is improved K/D ratio, which is meaningless, especially in a PvE-oriented game. There are no other advantages to it. It's a meaningless statistic. I would advise a rethinking of priorities to anyone who does attach much meaning to it.
I can only speak for myself, but I really could not care less about K/D or rating for that matter. What bothers me is when you have periods where you track a bit too early or late and end up as warg snack again and again. When you're jumped by useless wargs that you'd blow to pieces 99.99% of the time in a solo but completely unable to do anything because 3-4 of them jump you. Not to forget BAs when they pop MT and you're slowed + no nearby obstacles you can hide behind for the MT duration. Those periods just feel like you're doing nothing but riding from GY straight to your death without gaining anything.
I dont mind being squishy when my DPS is as potent as it is. But I would like to have an actual "Oh Bleep" skill as the Devs call it. As far as I can know tell all classes except hunter have some kind of bubble, unattackable state, mitigation and/or BPE skill they can pop to increase their survivability a lot for just 10-30seconds once every 5-15 minutes.
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Forgotten_Legend the Baconnaire
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Originally Posted by Thraxz1982
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|l /=/ From Codemasters over Turbine to Mordor \=\ l|
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