Thread: Where a Guard Shines (...and Wardens try)

Wardens - Great in most content, but lacking as tanks
in end-game content. This has become more clear to me as
I have been on Orthanc runs where we use 2 tanks and have
seen how well it goes for the Guard over the Warden (me).

Disclaimer: I'm ONLY talking about end-game content
here. (Orthanc at the moment). Wardens are uber elsewhere.

Here are the problems I have noticed:

1. Guards take way less damage.
We know this already, but our self buffs in end-game
environment do not put us on par.

2. To hold aggro well requires continuously running threat
skills, leaving fairly little time for self buffs.
If I do I lose aggro it takes way too long to get it
back. Often the squishy who pulled it is dead by then.

3. Tank swapping is a mess. The Guard takes aggro from me
quickly and cleanly. For me to take it back is near
impossible and slow.

4. Stuff that slows or stuns the Warden makes him fall apart
much faster than the Guard.

For example consider a 50% slow:
Guard skills are 1 button, so a skill that takes 1 second
now takes 2 seconds. A Warden gambit requiring 4 buttons
takes the hit on each key-press (not just the last one)
and so we grind to a snails pace.

Imagine being slowed and trying to get aggro off a squishy;
you are looking at 8+ seconds for just 1 gambit. And you will
likely need more that 1 gambit. The Guard cleanly snaps it
in 2 seconds.

Back before Update 6.1 when we had the "super threat issue"
with EOB+TV the above list was pretty much overcome by the
powerful threat. We had more time for self buffs. If we got
stunned or slowed we usually had such a threat lead that we
could get through it without losing control. If we needed to
take aggro from the Guard we could do it much easier. Yes, for
non end-game it was a bit OP.

Overall for end-game content the Guard is just a better choice
right now. It is not that Wardens can not do it, but why use
a Warden if a Guard is available? The Guard is just a lower
risk tool that gets the job done with fewer issues.

So, what would fix this? Not sure, a few thoughts...

1. In determination stance give our "Javelin Toss" some threat,
say 4K. This being a 1-key skill would help us when we are
slowed, or when something gets pulled to get it back more
quickly.

2. In determination stance make "Wages of Fear" put us to the
top of the threat table +8K. This would allow us to tank
swap quickly and cleanly.

3. Better threat overall leaving us more time for self buffs.
Of course this will just make us look way OP in non end-game
content. (This seems to be the dilemma in balancing the Warden
in general)

The reason I think the javelin is a good place for these
improvements is because they are quick to execute, and have
cooldowns to prevent spamming.

Ok, so now undoubtedly someone will reply and say something like:
"We are just fine... I have tanked T2 Orthanc!"

All I can say is Bravo! I'm not arguing that a Warden can not do
it; but go watch a decent Guard do it and see him/her shine in
comparison.

The main trouble is, and of course the things you point out: A mediocre guardian can still do end-game raids without too much difficulty. Even in regular content, one cannot be a mediocre warden. The wardens tanking end game stuff have put in twice as much (at least) time and effort to do so as a guardian would. They're on the ball and have to be three seconds ahead of the game at all times.

The main trouble isn't the threats, really, it's that, in order to survive, a warden needs to not just do his threat gambits, but also the self-heals and buffs.. to compensate for the fact that a warden, when hit, is going to take more damage from the shot than the guardian. The guardian can focus on just holding threat, with the occasional reactive heal, and the heavy armor and higher mitigation levels plus a good healer will take care of it. The warden has to go through a lot, and have a very heavy vit build to get near enough to the same level.

Originally, we were supposed to be avoidance tanks. On paper, it works. In practice, it's a lot harder to get it to work, especially with so many end-game mobs in Dev Cheat Mode: "Oh, this is an automatic hit, unresistable, etc."

Basically, if you want to suggest adding threat to some javelin things while in Determination, it might be better served to put the post in the Suggestions thread.

I can say only 1 thing if something not going for me i begin to practice, asking how can it be done but not beginning the million +1 thread that explains warden cant tank ToO T2.

Also at Bukot i think u have right, also need more trying XD

It's too early to suggest anything. I'd wait till u7 to truly determine where the warden stands. We know for a fact that aggression is being looked and it might fix post death agro and tank swapping as well. As of now those 2 are the only issues with a warden and everywhere else wardens are on par with guards. Just depends on the player which is how an advanced class is supposed to play.

As it stands (Update 6.1) Guardians would be better in a Raid environment. They just have better mitigations and defenses against Critical Hits (the magnitude of those hits, not necessarily the frequency). Anything else though I would say a Warden is on par or better suited. The only Raiding that my Warden really does is Skirmishes. 6 or 3 man content, Warden all the way. Raids, Guardians would be preferred if only because they're easier to keep up.

I wouldnt be opposed to a Threat bonus to WoF while in position....that helps give us a tool to re-pull mobs that have gone after squishies (and presumably have turned their back to you, the tank), without giving us something that's too generally OP in other situations (where mobs usually dont have their backs to you).

Also, as for the slow issues, I heard this argument once before - thats not how math works. Slows affect everyone equally.

Say a Guardian gets off 2 skills in 4 seconds, while a Warden gets off one 4-length gambit built with 1 mastery and 2 builders - 1 sec per builder, 2 for the gambit, and the Mastery is instant. Say both get a 100% slow.

The Guardian now gets off 2 skills in 8 seconds. The Warden gets off two builders (2 sec each), the mastery, and the animation (4 sec) in the same 8 seconds.

The same skills, the same timeframe. The fact that it takes us longer to build our gambits, compared to clicky classes, is already compensated by the fact that our gambits are generally better than individual class skills, and that they have no cooldowns. Slows (or speed-ups) dont affect that disproportionately to other classes in any way.

As for the threat/snap threat issue - we have DC now. Slot it. Legacy it. Its a force taunt on a 2.5 minute cooldown; how often are you needing to get snap aggro right now in even a decently-managed fight, where you absolutely cant wait for a Conviction or EoB? And you get 30 seconds of god mode 90% mits, to boot, meaning you can go ahead and spam threat skills, build some buffs, etc. so that when it expires, you're back in control of the fight.

You guys are crazy, My warden (13.5k) tanked the #### out of the Dragon!!!

J/K, yah threat is a huge problem, damage mit is another. We tried Sarumon T1 last night with a normal group that easily downs it, other than a newbie LM and a warden tank, we switched the warden out for a guard and I hardly had to heal him, compared to the constant attention needed for the warden, and this is a nearly perfectly geared and traited warden who should be able to main tank easily.

Originally Posted by JLotro

2. To hold aggro well requires continuously running threat
skills, leaving fairly little time for self buffs.
If I do I lose aggro it takes way too long to get it
back. Often the squishy who pulled it is dead by then.

I somewhat disagree with this. Its natural to think that if content is really hard, you have to spend all of your time self buffing in order to survive but that's not true and its actually not possible to do that...
Not in game so numbers might be off but with all the right legacies/traits, shield mastery lasts for 70 secs, enduring shield/armour bonus is 40-50 ish, evade 30+, and since 6.1 you can refresh these buffs pretty easily. So lets say you're taking a heavy beating and you already have all of these buffs up, the soonest to expire with 20 secs left. Even if you wanted to improve your defence here there's not much you can do. Could throw in restoration, takes ~4- secs with masteries, and you'll still have 16 seconds left to where really your only option is to do threat gambits. It basically takes one rotation of masteries to rebuff defences for 30 - 60 seconds. Even with stuns, lulls, movement, etc., thats plenty of time where you're spamming threat gambits regardless. Or pointlessly refreshing buffs early I suppose.
The tricky part is getting those buffs in the first place, but even with guards, top dps classes have learned to start slow.

Originally Posted by droid

Also, as for the slow issues, I heard this argument once before - thats not how math works. Slows affect everyone equally.

Not to derail (in this forum?!) but slows are not just a matter of math. I do agree that mathemtically the amount of skills in a successful rotation are affected 100% the same from class to class. But there is a different problem which is what happens when the slow causes the player to misfire.

Say a champ is trying to fire Skill1, Skill2, and Skill3 as part of their ideal DPS rotation. Due to being slowed, they accidentally hit Skill3 before Skill2 gets a chance to fire, so the output is "Skill1 -> Skill3". The effects of Skill1 and Skill 3 are not changed in any way, they are completely identical to the success case of Skill1 -> Skill2 -> Skill3.

Say a warden is trying to fire Builder, Mastery, FireGambit. Due to being slowed, they accidentally hit FireGambit before Mastery gets a chance to fire. So the output might be "Builder -> Default Gambit" which is garbage. The effects are not the same because the third result entirely relies on #1 and #2 succeeding.

There are edge cases for all classes, for example some Champ or Burglar skills might cause the next hit to autocrit, so in that sense a result can be amplified if a previous skill succeeds. But there are few (no?) cases where if a non-warden skips one skill in a rotation, the next skill they hit does the garbage equivalent of Gambit Default.

Best case scenario, a warden and a non-warden are affected equally. But because slows affect how the player and character interact, there's more to the story than a rotation taking 8 seconds instead of 4. Misfires due to slows cause a non-warden's 8 second successful rotation to become a 6 second successful rotation, but it might turn a warden's 8 second successful rotation into a 2-second successful rotation plus a 4-second waste of power.

More on-topic, having tanked all wings of Orthanc T1 and beating Saruman T1 with 2 wardens and 0 guards I disagree with the premise of the OP. I do agree that in Orthanc T2 mitigations > self-heals because you cannot self-heal a one-shot, but there are wardens who have tanked certain wings T2 as well. It's basically Ost Dunhoth all over again, since when 65 was the cap Wardens and Guardians could both do some wings fine, but in other wings Guardians were preferred even though Wardens could still do it.

Originally Posted by stratospaly

You guys are crazy, My warden (13.5k) tanked the #### out of the Dragon!!!

J/K, yah threat is a huge problem, damage mit is another. We tried Sarumon T1 last night with a normal group that easily downs it, other than a newbie LM and a warden tank, we switched the warden out for a guard and I hardly had to heal him, compared to the constant attention needed for the warden, and this is a nearly perfectly geared and traited warden who should be able to main tank easily.

Hardly had to heal him? What does that mean, are you telling me that in phase 5 when he had 9 sarumans you hardly had to heal him? Phase 1-4 my personal rk healer twiddles his thumbs. So please don't make statements like that. Phase 5 is where survivability is put to the test.

Just to give you an idea I took in total damage of 800k and I healed myself 350k, essentially my healing mitigated ~35% of the damage I took. This wasn't even that hard, I only used resto + cos and threw in WC for refresh and hit Conv when I got the chance. I think 140k was from EoB heals. It's does not become hard mitigation like 50%+35% = 85% > guard 70% mits but still you can see how huge our heals are now. This was on a poop set up where I was experimenting shooting for ~18k unbuffed morale and very high crit def with only 19% inc heals and small bpe. With 10-15% more avoidance and 25% inc heals that inc dmg number should fall by 5-10% depending on rng and the healing mit should rise by 5%. You might think that self heals are trivial in hard raid content but they're not, they all add up.

Originally Posted by stratospaly

other than a newbie LM and a warden tank

Originally Posted by stratospaly

and this is a nearly perfectly geared and traited warden who should be able to main tank easily.

Which one is it?

If it's a newbie warden then that's your argument doesn't apply and as much as I hate to say this, I have to say L2P to the warden.

If the warden is a geared veteran then may be he hasn't gotten used to the new threat system and needs to work harder(and may be smarter).

Originally Posted by droid

Also, as for the slow issues, I heard this argument once before - thats not how math works. Slows affect everyone equally.

Say a Guardian gets off 2 skills in 4 seconds, while a Warden gets off one 4-length gambit built with 1 mastery and 2 builders - 1 sec per builder, 2 for the gambit, and the Mastery is instant. Say both get a 100% slow.

The Guardian now gets off 2 skills in 8 seconds. The Warden gets off two builders (2 sec each), the mastery, and the animation (4 sec) in the same 8 seconds.

The same skills, the same timeframe. The fact that it takes us longer to build our gambits, compared to clicky classes, is already compensated by the fact that our gambits are generally better than individual class skills, and that they have no cooldowns. Slows (or speed-ups) dont affect that disproportionately to other classes in any way.

As for the threat/snap threat issue - we have DC now. Slot it. Legacy it. Its a force taunt on a 2.5 minute cooldown; how often are you needing to get snap aggro right now in even a decently-managed fight, where you absolutely cant wait for a Conviction or EoB? And you get 30 seconds of god mode 90% mits, to boot, meaning you can go ahead and spam threat skills, build some buffs, etc. so that when it expires, you're back in control of the fight.

I think you missed the point regarding the impact of slowness... Guards get their payoff in 1 keystroke. We get ours
in 3, 4, maybe 5. When slowed and a mob goes after a squishy a guard can "Challenge" and grab it in 2 secs with a single
keystroke. We may try EOB or SOV which will take 3-4x as long and is not necessarily going to get the mob.
Not to mention the impact of trying to do a multi-key sequence vs. 1 keystroke - the chances for a missed
key exist which blows the entire operation. It's a race against time to save the squishy. Guards win that race!

I know all about DC and have the cool-down redux on it. Challenge is on a much lower cool-down than DC
in either case. Challenge last for 10 secs - DC only 5. When slowed (or even when not) the 5 seconds is
rarely enough to accomplish much. DC is great for the extra mits, but not equal to challenge in regard to
regaining aggro.

We can always punt to blaming DPS for hitting too hard up front, but the fact is that when they do make
that mistake a Guard currently is a better bet that the Warden for recovery because the tools work faster.

Plus, with the rediculous length of DC's animation, it really doesn't work as an 'oh *=^!' emergency taunt. Heck, the animation is half the length of the taunt itself.

OK guess I will chime in here only since I have experience .... Both as a Warden and as a Mini healing Warden and Gaurd.

Talking strickly end game content/raids orthanc ....

Yes we Wardens can do it. Yes even on t2 .. at least for the first 3 wings, I have not done T2 on Shadow or Sarumon yet.

Yes it is a lot harder on T2 two and it is harder for a Warden to tank then a gaurd. It is also a lot harder for a mini to heal a warden then a gaurd on these raids.

Biggest issue I have as a Warden is what is already stated. Keeping up buffs, self heals and aggro is very difficult to do. Agro swapping on Lightning T2 is a challenge to say the least.

I think a small boost to our aggro skills is needed. Nothing where it was previous update, which made it very easy to keep aggro and then made it very easy to keep buffs and heals going. Just a little boost would put me where I think I should be.

Before the TV was changed again this last update I ran T2 lightning without an issue, now lightning wing takes a little more thought process and sometimes I have to call the champs in for an ebb to help me take aggro back. DC is great for the first time, but after that the cool down is not there to use again before you need to swap. Depending on the luck of the blocks for the other tank.

I will say this .. before update I could miss one gambit and recover without issue.. .since the update if I miss once it really really hurts the raid. I guess what i'm saying is I know it's a difficult class to play and I love it, but in the end we make one small mistake and it could mean a wipe and two ... it is ... that too me is a little to much, especially when lag has been a major issue and your using masteries and your gambit doesn't go off... omg it's over.

My biggest issue is aggro ... I feel I have to keep up with it and it doesn't give me time to get anything else off ... the healers biggest issue is keeping us alive ...

I'm not a great all powerful Warden in raids.. but I can hold my own. I'm just thinkng a little tweaking is necessary to get us to where we need to be....

Can't wait to see what U7 will hold for us. Until then ... I'll keep doing what I'm doing...

Originally Posted by Elrendos

As it stands (Update 6.1) Guardians would be better in a Raid environment. They just have better mitigations and defenses against Critical Hits (the magnitude of those hits, not necessarily the frequency). Anything else though I would say a Warden is on par or better suited. The only Raiding that my Warden really does is Skirmishes. 6 or 3 man content, Warden all the way. Raids, Guardians would be preferred if only because they're easier to keep up.

With 6.1 the issue isn't mitigation so much as it is that we lack the time to use our self buffs adequately while trying to hold aggro (at end game). This is what I personally have noticed. Our only threat generating gambit that is really worth it is EoB, which is fine and should be used for multiply target situations. Having said that, being essentially forced to use it for single target just baffles me. Our top single target threat skill should generate more threat on that single target than our top multi-target threat skills does on 10 targets each.

I know people will show up in this thread and say that they tank just fine, but you are hindering your group still by bringing a warden. Warden's need to focus on survival, and they have given us a lot of very nice tools to do so, but what is the point in having them if we need to basically be spamming our threat skills to not lose aggro.

I agree about improving single-target threat tools. I would like to see PB much stronger
and also threat added to Javelin Toss in Determination stance.

This would be handy when tanking multiple mobs and one "gets away" -- rather than having
to chase it down pulling all the other mobs with you, messing up the group positioning, and
possibly stepping in some cloud that will kill you, you can just bring the disobedient mob back
to you.

Originally Posted by JLotro

I agree about improving single-target threat tools. I would like to see PB much stronger
and also threat added to Javelin Toss in Determination stance.

This would be handy when tanking multiple mobs and one "gets away" -- rather than having
to chase it down pulling all the other mobs with you, messing up the group positioning, and
possibly stepping in some cloud that will kill you, you can just bring the disobedient mob back
to you.

Maybe just make Precise Blow a little stronger. It does not have to be alot much stronger though. The way they reworked the threat on Gambits now it seems that the longer the Gambit is the greater magnitude it has for the particular buff that it does. For example, you used to be able to just use Precise Blow as your go to single target threat Gambit... but now you need to use higher magnitude Gambits from a particular line such as Piercing Strike or Spear of Virtue. With Masteries using Spear of Virtue isn't too bad compared to Precise Blow. Obviously it is two builders longer... but gets the job done just as good as our old Precise Blow.

Originally Posted by Elrendos

Maybe just make Precise Blow a little stronger. It does not have to be alot much stronger though. The way they reworked the threat on Gambits now it seems that the longer the Gambit is the greater magnitude it has for the particular buff that it does. For example, you used to be able to just use Precise Blow as your go to single target threat Gambit... but now you need to use higher magnitude Gambits from a particular line such as Piercing Strike or Spear of Virtue. With Masteries using Spear of Virtue isn't too bad compared to Precise Blow. Obviously it is two builders longer... but gets the job done just as good as our old Precise Blow.

Threat is THE core skill for a tank, and as it turns out
often when you need a strong single target threat you
also need it FAST.

So, I think that PB ought to be made our strongest single
target threat and as you progress further in that branch
you could add more TOT and BPE buffs, etc.

Originally Posted by JLotro

Threat is THE core skill for a tank, and as it turns out
often when you need a strong single target threat you
also need it FAST.

So, I think that PB ought to be made our strongest single
target threat and as you progress further in that branch
you could add more TOT and BPE buffs, etc.

Not a bad idea.

Maybe make PB a more "reactionary" gambit, like The Boot, by removing the ToT, make it do 3T up front, and have following gambits in the line do initial & tiering ToT's , keeping the Sp/Fi/... line all single target....

As for my experience, I agree with Jlotro.
We are avoidance/self-healing tanks -> avoidance is a matter of chance, mitigation is a certainty. Plus, finesse brokes completely our avoidance.

Self-healings are very powerful: in some pulls in Foundry I reach about 700 HPS, but this happens when you don't care too much about avoidance. When you need to tank and move constantly, can you self-heals enough to compensate the difference of damage guardians take?

The damage spikes are imprevedible: last time I tanked Draigoch, at the beginning of phase 3 I run to take the head.... and the first hit was a devastate of 14k dmg! I survived because i was full morale Unlucky? Surely, but this cannot be prevented.

Talking about ToO T2, you shoud have all defences up (that means: SM, DoW, WoS, buff from double Sh-Sp line, buff from double Sh-Fi line, buff from double Fi-Sh line). Healing: T1, T2, T3, T4 healing running. Lifetaps: can be used, but if the position is not perfect you will wake up CCed mobs (-> wiiiipe!!!). Plus, you must do constant aggro: it happened more than 1 time to me to loose aggro vs FA dps-ers. Now all the fights, pulls included, seem to be dps races: you can't ask dps-ers to slow down!

Many kinships have used wardens in ToO T2, but maybe the whole group was Overpowered, healers included: so I think that wardens can find place in raids, but they must be EXTREMELY good, in a group that has already mastered the fights. There is no place for them in groups that are learning the T2.

Is this the meaning of an advanced class (in this case LM and Burgs should find the same difficultuties....), or am I missing something?

.. or maybe the warden is an unbalanced class who's not fitting in the game actually (too OP in small contents and weak in raid)

Quite hard to tank yes.. but here in good old nim we got wardens with 18k health and 50% both defences and can hold aggro.... He does have AMAZING gear

Originally Posted by RunKeep3r

Quite hard to tank yes.. but here in good old nim we got wardens with 18k health and 50% both defences and can hold aggro.... He does have AMAZING gear

It is hard to tank. The problems arise with some of the end game raids on T2 for wardens. I have 18k-20k health when buffed and full maxed tactical and physcial mit's. My problem comes from aggro swapping, getting aggro after death, and cc friendly aggro skills.

Now for the most part the cc friendly stuff is ok and not a big issue. the after death and swapping is a problem. The threat generation over time doesn't effectivly do what we need it too fast enough. Same with aggro swapping.

Now with the current U7 changes I see DC being more viable, although the current animation makes it trouble some, not sure if that will change or not. Along with that the aggression bump should do the trick.

With these changes I am seeing the warden being better rounded for raids and able to keep buffs and self heals up more to allow for us to be more viable tanks.