I remember that as being the peak heart-seeker I saw. They would average probably over 10k with burn hot. Some hunters saw regular one-shots. And, while that's likely not possible any more because of audacity, it certainly doesn't balance out because it takes 2 more seconds to kill something.
Combination of freep raiding skills and buffs used to maximum effect will make freeps invincible. There's really no point in stating something to a lesser extent. 90% of everything to do with freepside has imbalance written all over it.
While as interesting as it may be to give a sturdy DPS class survivability, I would rather them not waste any more time on needless changes. I would hope that be a fantasy that never get's played out.
DPS classes by design do not need anything more than some sort of basic survivability, which the hunter class specifically has continued to hold for a significant amount of time anyway.
A hunter caught melee in that build is dead prolly 100/100 times and Im being conservative...
like I said juggling between a hunter in a raid and a hunter solo is a fine line as far as tweaking... As far as I see yes freeps are more powerful than creeps based on available skills which is why i say any change to survivability to hunter without a dps sacrifce would likey be unfair in a raid situation... currently solo hunter is not fair an im talking about a direct 1v1 situation with an equally ranked creep.. and plz before someone brings it up spare me the unbalance between other freep classes and creeps classes arguement I get it...
Speaking of mechanics like this, Latent Poison needs to bypass BPE to hit (and reduce max power), then it needs to pass resistance once to land the countdown to stun and after the countdown it still needs to pass resistance again to land the stun. And hope the target doesn't get cured or stun immune via pots or SoP:R or other skills etc.
Except creeps have much higher Finesse than creeps. My r0 WL has more finesse than my endgame geared hunter with finesse on full set audacity armor, 1k finesse on neck, both rings and cloak.
Hunters are the only "balanced" freep class, nowadays. It is the only class left that has to pay a price for their OP in some aspect: they are somewhat squishy when caught in melee.
I agree that this is "unfair" compared to all the other freep classes. Please, Turbine, remove the last glimpse of balance of the moors!
Fleetness is the way to go. If you roll fleetness, you should be able to give most creeps a good fight...
I would argue that shadow warg has the highest creep dps atm
Agree with both points here. Fleetness is my traitline of choice for a number of reasons. However, maximizing the benefits from fleetness requires hunters to run with 2 audacity or have macros set up for switching out full sets of armor. I bet there is less than 5% who do that. Most players don't even know what macros and/or plugins are.
I haven't seen any other creep classes out DPS wargs lately. Some other classes can do things to reduce my DPS to such a degree that 1v1s become uncompetitive though. Moving Target comes to mind. I basically hit about 20% of my shots when BA's pop MT based on Combat Analysis.
Originally Posted by Untg99
There was an 11kish?(I struggle to remember this exactly, could be a little lower) Heart-seeker on a rank 10 defiler on our server by a hunter pre-u6.
Oh, by the way, he didn't even use burn hot.
Don't troll. Neither freeps nor creeps in this thread are stupid enough to fall for it.
Either this thread just has alot of exaggerating and poorly played creeps or its just a troll-the-hunters thread. Too many people in general are just lumping all the hunter's traits and abilities into one big ole pile.
Hunters have excellent CC, including 2 fears, 2 mezzes, multiple roots and multiple snares.
Hunters can shoot continuous pen shots critting for 2k+ each (and ON THE RUN!!!).
Hunters can use fleetness and have +10% in combat run speed.
Hunters have excellent DPS, including Heartseeker which can hit up to 20k & swiftbow which can hit for over 7k.
Hunters can get over 12k morale and can have excellent survivability with 7 audacity.
Hunters can get well over 2800 agility and incredible amounts of physical mastery.
Hunters can stealth, surprising unaware enemies, killing them before they can move 1 step.
Hunters can do nearly all of this at an incredible 40 meters!
It all sounds great until you actually have to slot for something or gear a certain way (or play the class... ahem... creeps). Trust me, its similar to playing a creep. You won't get the perspective without trying the class. With the hunter class gearing or traiting a certain way forces hunters to sacrifice aspects of their build. Some classes have it all, and you could say that hunters "have it all" but not all at once. It not always about what you slot or gear for, its about what you have to give up to slot/gear that certain way.
I'm of the opinion that if hunters got a stance like BA's Skirmisher stance, we wouldn't be the bottom of the food chain. However, that type of stance offers very little benefit to current PvE fights and I don't see it ever becoming a reality. Low survivability + immobile DPS from inductions doesn't lend itself to success.
With the hunter class gearing or traiting a certain way forces hunters to sacrifice aspects of their build. Some classes have it all, and you could say that hunters "have it all" but not all at once. It not always about what you slot or gear for, its about what you have to give up to slot/gear that certain way.
While I agree that hunters need some skill to boost survivability a bit (we all know that if they actually get it, it will either be OP or UP b/c it's Turbine...), but this point here about traiting for certain things (damage or health or etc) is actually how I think that all classes should be. This is the problem with minis atm. WS mini that can do good dps and full heal themselves is broken. They should have to either do dps OR heal, not both. Even creeps have to look at how to trait and the trade-off (granted, not to the extent of freeps, but that's b/c we have MUCH less of a selection of traits/etc.). Specifically with our corruptions, we have to either slot more moral ones or more dps ones or more power ones or a mix. I think that if all classes had to make trade-offs to the same extent of every other class, then the moors would be much better balanced, but again, it's Turbine...
Now if I want to make a comment on balance, I, as a R13 Hunter, woul want to compare myself against what? A freshly created creep? No that would be stupid. As a top-geared ranked hunter I'd compare myself against another R13 creep with all pots running and available. And "blowing" things up in two shots becomes quite difficult from here, so difficult in fact, that I would even assume it is impossible. A freshly generated creep though? Why would I waste any time figuring out balance here? There is none. They have a hard time as is, without me standing in stealth and hitting them coming from the rez.
By the way speaking of 9k heartseekers. Now if one really would want to put the few points we have in the legacy it might just be possible, with all buffs up and running including Burn Hot (traited red), improved focus, DP-buff, breach-finder, fire oil, the HS and BA trait, to hit for a rough 8k, if it chooses to crit wit that 8% chance to devastate. Mine right now is critting for maybe 5,2k on a ranked creep, so there is a long way to go for that solo hunter to hit for 9k on a r13 creep.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
What happens if the hunter's survivability was increased ? Glass cannon becomes OP cannon ? Like champs with their top tier damage output *and* survivability ? With 40m range and stealth on top of that ? No thanks.
What happens if the hunter's survivability was increased ? Glass cannon becomes OP cannon ? Like champs with their top tier damage output *and* survivability ? With 40m range and stealth on top of that ? No thanks.
Have you not been reading this thread? That's exactly what has been debated...
Despite audacity, red traited hunters are still capable of pumping out burst damage not suitable for PvP.
Hell, blue traited hunters have some pretty damn hard burst which could be (more than likely is) questionable.
Mitigation difference between low ranked and high ranked creeps is almost so minuscule it's non existent.
The largest differential balancing factor between low and high rank creep(despite the audacity grind) is their use of consumables, and battlefield promotions (which finesse is the best thing about, as well as the maximum 15% addition to damage, health and power to their rank 0 counterparts).
Audacity does make a significant difference, I'm not saying that it doesn't.
But not enough in terms of helping achieve overall balance (Which is heavily skewed in favour of ALL freeps).
Under-exaggerate and negative forum rep me all you want to. Still doesn't change anything.
What happens if the hunter's survivability was increased ? Glass cannon becomes OP cannon ? Like champs with their top tier damage output *and* survivability ? With 40m range and stealth on top of that ? No thanks.
I am in no way advocating this. I would rather see a reduction of the hunter clumsiness. Everything from purge poison to BH and Intent Concentration to traps takes to long to cast, animation times are horrible and root you to the ground for ages. Within one fight lasting 20 seconds at most I am spending up to 5 seconds hanging in useless animation times. Blindside, Burn Hot, Dazing Blow, Intent Concentration need to be mentioned here. Also there are skills that need to be adressed that should not have an induction, or where it would not have a negative effect on PvE balance if they were removed, like Irritating Shot, Bards Arrow, Traps. Also a veritable slow is in order. Like innate Barbed Arrow slow of 25% for 20 seconds. Also every side effect like debuffs or CC should be tactical i.e not subject to B/P/E as well as resistance.
Adding a bubble, or a large heal with no or little trade off would skew balance towards group fights and raid fights as well. An agile rejoinder heal that is innate and could be increased via the legacy would be alright though in strength of offsetting a BA or Reaver Dot. i.e. 112 every 2 seconds for 20 seconds.
I even agree that there is burst damage around not suitable for PvP, but that is not only hunter exclusive and only towards fresh creeps. MInstrels, Champs even Burgs and LMs have massive burst capabilities. But these become largely obsolete especially agains thunters when facing high ranked creeps.
Even a rank 5 creep will not yet have access to full audacity meaning up to 20% more received damage, while having 10% less morale, power, finesse, attack rating then a rank 15 counterpart. With audacity Turbine just turned even more away from balance. 20% makes a huge difference for everybody. Yeah I laugh at a large number of greenies trying to get me but so does every freep class. And any full audacity creep will laugh at any PvP-Newbie riding down from GV. And here comes Turbine or Orion specifically and turns the wheel on these creeps that seldomly had a need of balance in the first place. BAs are a capable class now, as well as reavers, good on them. Spiders are really cool too, but why on earth would anyone in their right mind give to Wargs what they jsut received by Orion? THey were hanging around in packs before, and the good ones were more than capable to cope before solo. This I just do not understand.
I am more than willign to give up that improved focus buff, but there needs to be a replacement that offsets the 25% crit chance and the multiplier. So instead of these five seconds of burst that we need to cope, give us a straight buff working all the time, like another 5-10% on multiplier and another 2-4% of critchance.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
Agree with both points here. Fleetness is my traitline of choice for a number of reasons. However, maximizing the benefits from fleetness requires hunters to run with 2 audacity or have macros set up for switching out full sets of armor. I bet there is less than 5% who do that. Most players don't even know what macros and/or plugins are.
I haven't seen any other creep classes out DPS wargs lately. Some other classes can do things to reduce my DPS to such a degree that 1v1s become uncompetitive though. Moving Target comes to mind. I basically hit about 20% of my shots when BA's pop MT based on Combat Analysis.
Don't troll. Neither freeps nor creeps in this thread are stupid enough to fall for it.
Either this thread just has alot of exaggerating and poorly played creeps or its just a troll-the-hunters thread. Too many people in general are just lumping all the hunter's traits and abilities into one big ole pile.
Hunters have excellent CC, including 2 fears, 2 mezzes, multiple roots and multiple snares.
Hunters can shoot continuous pen shots critting for 2k+ each (and ON THE RUN!!!).
Hunters can use fleetness and have +10% in combat run speed.
Hunters have excellent DPS, including Heartseeker which can hit up to 20k & swiftbow which can hit for over 7k.
Hunters can get over 12k morale and can have excellent survivability with 7 audacity.
Hunters can get well over 2800 agility and incredible amounts of physical mastery.
Hunters can stealth, surprising unaware enemies, killing them before they can move 1 step.
Hunters can do nearly all of this at an incredible 40 meters!
It all sounds great until you actually have to slot for something or gear a certain way (or play the class... ahem... creeps). Trust me, its similar to playing a creep. You won't get the perspective without trying the class. With the hunter class gearing or traiting a certain way forces hunters to sacrifice aspects of their build. Some classes have it all, and you could say that hunters "have it all" but not all at once. It not always about what you slot or gear for, its about what you have to give up to slot/gear that certain way.
I'm of the opinion that if hunters got a stance like BA's Skirmisher stance, we wouldn't be the bottom of the food chain. However, that type of stance offers very little benefit to current PvE fights and I don't see it ever becoming a reality. Low survivability + immobile DPS from inductions doesn't lend itself to success.
Sey you say it so eloquently! I tried to explain this to Meneldor creeps and they just flamed me... haha.
Sey you say it so eloquently! I tried to explain this to Meneldor creeps and they just flamed me... haha.
Are you still playing old friend?
I've played my hunter about three times in the last month. There's no real reason to play when there is nothing to play for on freepside. If its not fun, then why even play. I'm sure if I was on a god-mode champ or minstrel I'd be enjoying it. i've touched the warg a little, but its so easy its not even fun. The competition is either nearly uncompetitive, hips away, or is a minstel and has healed to full while DPSing me at over 850 DPS.
I've played my hunter about three times in the last month. There's no real reason to play when there is nothing to play for on freepside. If its not fun, then why even play. I'm sure if I was on a god-mode champ or minstrel I'd be enjoying it. i've touched the warg a little, but its so easy its not even fun. The competition is either nearly uncompetitive, hips away, or is a minstel and has healed to full while DPSing me at over 850 DPS.
Yes still playing ... and on my hunter which is sadly underpowered even in comparison to my sub-par geared minstrel.
BAs are a capable class now, as well as reavers, good on them.
Just wanted to point out the reavers are NOT a capable class atm. Try having dps of a captain and the survivability of a hunter. Yea hunters do not have the survivability of said creep counter part BA's but you have massive burst damage, its either one or the other. Reavers on the other hand have neither, yea i can take down a hunter but if you attack a reaver before it gets charge up then your most likely going to defeat it. I think hunters are ok atm add more cc, survivability, or an in combat escape skill could put the hunter in the same category as champs and minis. ( oh and ever seen a hunter with crumbling brands....bad ju ju right there)
I know this is now an old thread, but I hadn't checked it for a while and I felt obliged to respond to responses to my earlier post. So there.
Originally Posted by someenigma
I admittedly don't play as much any more, but I'm yet to see any hit beyond 6k in this last book, and I'm still only on R3 audacity. 9k seems very extreme for a single hit.
Just two nights ago, I was hit by an incredibly well-geared, R13 elf hunter from stealth with an 8k HS. He is one of 4 hunters on Windfola that I know currently have 1Agers, and of the lot, at least 3 have hit me with 8k+ HS's (I have full Audacity, and don't ask if any of them popped Burn Hot, I have no idea).
Originally Posted by someenigma
With MT up, yes a hunter won't be doing much. But most smart hunters that I find around are also smart enough to go run around a tree or rock while MT is up. Low-cut (and the slow on quickshot if it hits before MT) is usually enough to keep me simply running around in circles until MT wears off.
Seeing as I can spam my Hindering Shot, there's very little chance of a hunter effectively kiting and LoS'ing me using trees and rocks. Unless, of course, we were right next to such a feature and he managed to get a mez/daze on me at exactly the right moment that by the time I recovered, he was exactly out of LoS. Like I said, unless they manage to get a dev HS on me, once I pop MT and have Skirmisher, I will win.
As a quick example: I was once jumped by the highest ranked hunter on my server, a dwarf R13, near TR rez. He popped an HS on me from stealth, got me from my max 12.5k morale to about 4k. I popped MT (something I hate doing against a hunter, but in this case, he had the obvious advantage of stealth, so I take it as fair ), didn't use any pots or uruk-heal. Now this hunter had close to 8k morale, I believe, and yet in the time it took for him to burn up 4k of my morale through MT, I killed him. It was a double kill, but only because I intentionally slowed down my DPS.
Originally Posted by therealwhizzy
Cant recall? huh I would assume if this was a regular occurence it would be burnt into yur brain... it just seems everyone remembers the one in 1000 shot... gimme a break already...
Pretty sure he meant he couldn't remember the exact figure, not who did it. I dunno who the hunter was in that particular instance, but like I said, I can think of 3 people it could have been. A simple calculation: a 9k HS on an R10 BA with R7 Audacity equals, accounting for the -30% incoming damage modifier, about 12.5k pre-U6. Which, incidentally, is exactly my morale pool with IP on, no consumables or DP buffs.
Oh, and I've been hit for 13k HS's by the above mentioned R13 elf hunter at least twice that I can remember before U6.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
So what you're saying is that between RoI and update 6, there were 3 - 4 hunters on your server doing 13k+ hits. You also seem to suggest this is a regular occurence yet dev hits are less than a 10% chance.
I'm saying an R13 elf hunter one-shot me multiple times not long before U6, and this same hunter is one among 3 that has dev'd HS on me from stealth for upwards of 8k. And I've had this happen to me at least 9-10 times that I can recall off the top of my head (4-5 times by the elf R13, 3-4 times by an elf who recently hit R10, and at least twice by the R13 dwarf). Which means there's at least half as many incidents I've forgotten.
I feel obliged to clarify that I run a full DPS corruption setup, no mitigations at all. I do use the Delving armor, evade and resistance pots, but only started on those well after U6. Therefore my mit percentages were typically base level for an R10 BA plus Resistance Boost and Avoidance Boost (+900 resist rating, +1,527 evade rating). And those aren't mits, anyway
Finally, even acknowledging the fact that these are all dev's, consider just the fact that these hunters can potentially kill an R10 creep with just two or at most 4 hits. And even if the HS doesn't do much, there's Penetrating Shot, Blood Arrow, Swift Bow etc., all of which I've seen add up to over 8k of damage on me, i.e. two-thirds of my max morale. How much damage do you think I'll be doing to one of these hunters if I were to pop VT, Screaming Shafts, Punctured Target, Headshot and Hinder+Tangleshot? Unless my VT dev's for 2.5k or so, I'll be lucky to do more than 3.5k damage total. Which is about half the 7k+ morale most geared hunters on Windfola, including the above nuclear warheads, sport.
Simply, hunters are okay atm. I'd even go so far as to suggest they could use a slight DPS decrease and a major increase in survivability, maybe so that they're slightly squishier than the average burg ('cause they're both medium armor classes). This should make them, like BA's, good DPS'ers but with viable playing options even if they're put in melee situations.
Last edited by CirdalvalSilnuviel; May 21 2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Untg99
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), didn't use any pots or uruk-heal. Now this hunter had close to 8k morale, I believe, and yet in the time it took for him to burn up 4k of my morale through MT, I killed him. It was a double kill, but only because I intentionally slowed down my DPS.
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