And I hope you are wrong.... because if "most" of the HoH captains on this forum think our DPS doesn't matter that doesn't speak well for this community. I haven't seen any evidence of this though, and most HoH Captains on this forum seem to understand just because they trait into their healing-line that doesn't suddenly mean our damage ceases to matter.
Um no...
Let's theorycraft for a second.... if we assume that the tank is doing around 500 DPS, and we have 3 DPSers doing 2k DPS each, with a mini doing 0 DPS (which isn't correct, but I don't know what the number is, so we're running with zero for the time being), and a HoH captain doing 500 DPS, that means we are contributing only:
= 500/(500 + 2000*3 + 500)
= 500/8000
= 0.0625 or 6.25% of the group DPS.
I would consider anything less than 10% insignificant (IE: Macs don't get games for them because they have less that 10% of the Operating System marketshare).
So really, the HoH's captains DPS is insignificant, and when a HoH captain is brought into a group over a captain or LtC captain, it is because the group wants our buffs AND our healing - not our DPS.
How significant do you think the difference between 400dps and 500dps is when if you do 400dps you improve your healing, not only theoretically, but in practice too? And regarding theorycrafting, it's always right. The gameplay is based on pure math did you like it or not. It is not based on what you think it's better, it's only math. Cause you know what? some ppl think wrong!
Your only argument is that you see bigger numbers with 2-hander and I find it just....went speechless..I recommend you to back off from these discussions because I really am afraid that if someone from your server reads these and understands what we are talking about you are gonna get a reputation you don't want.
I have a 2-hander for LtC and 2x 1-h sword for LoM and HoH. That HoH sword is just a decoration in my LI panel because it is never used due to LtC being far superior and more enjoyable build to roll with. I've tested it though against the 2-hander and had positive results with higher hps. I just find it sad that I know what I just wrote goes to deff ears, again.
How significant do you think the difference between 400dps and 500dps is when if you do 400dps you improve your healing, not only theoretically, but in practice too? And regarding theorycrafting, it's always right. The gameplay is based on pure math did you like it or not. It is not based on what you think it's better, it's only math. Cause you know what? some ppl think wrong!
Your only argument is that you see bigger numbers with 2-hander and I find it just....went speechless..I recommend you to back off from these discussions because I really am afraid that if someone from your server reads these and understands what we are talking about you are gonna get a reputation you don't want.
I have a 2-hander for LtC and 2x 1-h sword for LoM and HoH. That HoH sword is just a decoration in my LI panel because it is never used due to LtC being far superior and more enjoyable build to roll with. I've tested it though against the 2-hander and had positive results with higher hps. I just find it sad that I know what I just wrote goes to deff ears, again.
Nohou, the only one who needs to back off of "ridiculous discussions" is you
Any captain who thinks the benefits to your healing from wearing a shield outweighs the benefits to your DPS wearing a two-hander brings obviously doens't play the class much. So yes, I can easily tell your HoH sword is just a "decoration" and that you ususally play LtC. That is an easily recognized fact by reading your comments, so don't worry. And it's no wonder to me you don't find the HoH class enjoyable. I would hate it also if I went around with a ###### healing sword and shield lol
Any HoH Captain wanting advice would be far better served by listening to a Captain who actually plays it - instead of a LtC Captain who rarely ever plays HoH and thinks he knows all about it because Almagnus showed him a chart.
Let's theorycraft for a second.... if we assume that the tank is doing around 500 DPS, and we have 3 DPSers doing 2k DPS each, with a mini doing 0 DPS (which isn't correct, but I don't know what the number is, so we're running with zero for the time being), and a HoH captain doing 500 DPS, that means we are contributing only:
= 500/(500 + 2000*3 + 500)
= 500/8000
= 0.0625 or 6.25% of the group DPS.
I would consider anything less than 10% insignificant (IE: Macs don't get games for them because they have less that 10% of the Operating System marketshare).
So really, the HoH's captains DPS is insignificant, and when a HoH captain is brought into a group over a captain or LtC captain, it is because the group wants our buffs AND our healing - not our DPS.
W/E Almagnus...
I'm getting tired of this silly debate. You can think HoH DPS doesn't matter all you want, but my 3k crits beg to differ with you. It helps - and anyone who thinks having another partymember in the mix frequently landing 2-3k crits on the monster doesn't help just isn't living in reality.
But play like you want. If you like wearing wuss weapons and pretending you're a ministrel be my guest. What ever floats your boat. Just stop calling my damage meaningless. It isn't, and it does help - regardless of what you say.
I'm getting tired of this silly debate. You can think HoH DPS doesn't matter all you want, but my 3k crits beg to differ with you. It helps - and anyone who thinks having another partymember in the mix frequently landing 2-3k crits on the monster doesn't help just isn't living in reality.
But play like you want. If you like wearing wuss weapons and pretending you're a ministrel be my guest. What ever floats your boat. Just stop calling my damage meaningless. It isn't, and it does help - regardless of what you say.
It's only a silly debate because you answer math, logic, and reasoning with emotional responses, anecdotal evidence, and insults.
You have yet to build a solid case that backs up what you are saying. And when I challenged you to it before, you freaked out.
And HoH DPS, just like LoM DPS, is a complete and utter joke in the big scheme of things. Trying to claim it's anything else just shows how much you do not know about other classes. You getting all huffy about it is only a sign of weakness and cowardice.
Nohou, the only one who needs to back off of "ridiculous discussions" is you
Any captain who thinks the benefits to your healing from wearing a shield outweighs the benefits to your DPS wearing a two-hander brings obviously doens't play the class much. So yes, I can easily tell your HoH sword is just a "decoration" and that you ususally play LtC. That is an easily recognized fact by reading your comments, so don't worry. And it's no wonder to me you don't find the HoH class enjoyable. I would hate it also if I went around with a ###### healing sword and shield lol
Any HoH Captain wanting advice would be far better served by listening to a Captain who actually plays it - instead of a LtC Captain who rarely ever plays HoH and thinks he knows all about it because Almagnus showed him a chart.
I've rolled my fair share with HoH. The reason I roll with LtC is that I actually keep close attention to my outputs, both healing and damaging and at the moment 3/3 dagor/pers LtC build just practically sits down on top of HoH, crushing it by its far superior performance. You have no facts, you disregard perfectly solid reasoning and proof of why something is like it is only because you _THINK_ it's wrong.
And hey we got BIG NUMBERS again...jesus.... If you measure it properly that "big" 3k isn't that frequent as you seem to think while you're rolling with HoH even with capped crit.
You have not answered my question btw. How significant do you think the difference between 400dps and 500dps is? Only answer this one please, leave the other mambojambo out of it.
I've rolled my fair share with HoH. The reason I roll with LtC is that I actually keep close attention to my outputs, both healing and damaging and at the moment 3/3 dagor/pers LtC build just practically sits down on top of HoH, crushing it by its far superior performance. You have no facts, you disregard perfectly solid reasoning and proof of why something is like it is only because you _THINK_ it's wrong.
And hey we got BIG NUMBERS again...jesus.... If you measure it properly that "big" 3k isn't that frequent as you seem to think while you're rolling with HoH even with capped crit.
You have not answered my question btw. How significant do you think the difference between 400dps and 500dps is? Only answer this one please, leave the other mambojambo out of it.
Nohau, I really don't care about trying to prove this to you.
The differences in damage between using a one-hander and a 2-hander IS "significant". I already know this, to a certanity. You can believe what you want, I really dont' care - and I'm not going to waste my time any more trying to prove the obvious to you.
Use a shield if you want. That's up to you - and just because I don't think it's a good trade-off doesn't mean you have to agree with me. Go knock yourself out. Wear a dagger and tutu if that's your thing. It's your decesion.
It's only a silly debate because you answer math, logic, and reasoning with emotional responses, anecdotal evidence, and insults.
You have yet to build a solid case that backs up what you are saying. And when I challenged you to it before, you freaked out.
And HoH DPS, just like LoM DPS, is a complete and utter joke in the big scheme of things. Trying to claim it's anything else just shows how much you do not know about other classes. You getting all huffy about it is only a sign of weakness and cowardice.
No it's silly because you make silly contraditctive arguments and keep enaging in baltant hypocirsy, lecturing me about "insulting" simply for firing back at you the exact same things you say to me lol
One second you are saying the HoH captstone is almost worthless because it only increases your healing by 10%... now you are going crazy saying any HoH Captain who doesn't use a shield to boost his healing isn't maximizing his potential and doesn't understand his class. Yet the bonuses to healing from wearing a shield are far lower than the bonuses equipiing the HoH Capstone trait would give you. That's why it's silly... because YOU MAKE NO SENSE lol
Try to sell your hogwash somewhere else Almagnus. I'm not buying it.
Also, on a side note - If you want to be treated politely with respect, treat others that way first. Else don't act all offended and innocent just because someone gets tired of listening to you insult them so they give you some of what you richly deserve.
No it's silly because you make silly contraditctive arguments and keep enaging in baltant hypocirsy, lecturing me about "insulting" simply for firing back at you the exact same things you say to me lol
One second you are saying the HoH captstone is almost worthless because it only increases your healing by 10%... now you are going crazy saying any HoH Captain who doesn't use a shield to boost his healing isn't maximizing his potential and doesn't understand his class. Yet the bonuses to healing from wearing a shield are far lower than the bonuses equipiing the HoH Capstone trait would give you. That's why it's silly... because YOU MAKE NO SENSE lol
Try to sell your hogwash somewhere else Almagnus. I'm not buying it.
Also, on a side note - If you want to be treated politely with respect, treat others that way first. Else don't act all offended and innocent just because someone gets tired of listening to you insult them so they give you some of what you richly deserve.
We'll try this again:
Since our combat and healign are all mathematically deterministic (with a minor random element that can easily be simulated out), there are many simulations AND PARSINGS that show that the HoH capstone does not have the healing increase that should mirror the DPS scaling with the LtC Capstone and red traits.
That's Problem #1.
HoH Capstone also indicates that Song Brother should be the default healing tool for the captain, yet the observed gameplay is that Shield Brother is the preferred healing brother skill. This disconnect should not exist in the game, especially when LoM and LtC each heavily favor Shield and Blade Brother, and those are the ideal brother skills for the respective roles that the traitlines are geared for.
This is Problem #2.
Address these problems with logic, parsings, and numbers - not your boring, mindless, drivel.
personally i feel the Vs morale healing to be very good in 3 and 6mans and it struggles in raids
I think Song-brother goes perfectly with HOH build as the AOE power from the inspire Heals the group power more effectivly than any Loremaster and i flick between Shield brother and song brother to add the + incoming healing and out going healing skills.My dps will always be low compared to any dps class so my buffs make up the diffrence and when more dps is needed i use Bladebrother and fellowship brother combined.
a bit of an off topic but I'd love to see more focus on melee healing for cappies, let minis and RK be the ranged induction healers
melee HoT focus would be nice, it would make capt play even more interesting (yes this would mean downplaying RC and WoC but compensating this with some melee healing additions), oh and I do love our RC
it would also help with the legacies allowing to merge vocal and melee healing or vocal and RC healing (I'd go for the 2nd)
on topic this might mean adding a healing element to another melee skill on HoH capstone (Sure Strike fits in nicely but the CD is to low unless the heal would be also low, no HoT)
it would either be a small group heal or a bit higher single target heal healing the mob's target (which is usually the one requiring healing anyway and it would require some decisions)
I'm not gonna do any number crounching there now
we currently have:
1 good AoE heal and power heal with HoT & PoT - greatly trait and legacy improved, enemy defeat gated
1 good single target heal with HoT - slightly trait and legacy improved
1 small AoE HoT - slightly trait and legacy improved
1 small heal optionally with HoT - greatly trait and legacy improved (HoT addition)
1 small AoE heal, mob debuff - improved by an armor set, dependable on the damage done to target
we lack a big single target heal as an emergency one (double RC with Time of Need could be considered one but it's AoE and not entirely reliable)
interesting option would be changing WoC to a single solid heal w/o a HoT but considerably boosted (this can be tied to Fear No Darkness, possibly adding an induction to balance and optionally a CD) and focusing more on melee healing as mentioned (Sure Strike change would be interesting to implement)
alternative option would be to make HoH capstone ungate SL, remove threat component, drop the damage but add a group heal (though this mimics VS so I wouldn't eventually go with it)
if SS would be a single target melee heal this would somewhat replace WoC as a small spot heal and WoC would be our bigger heal we fire occasionally
I don't think Turbince goes this way since they've introduced the legacy for WoC pulses, unless this would be moved to RC pulses, we move basic CD to 30 and drop the legacy (just a thought)
this would also be in the line with capt idea IMHO, a leader that fights in the 1st line boosting the morale by example
some of this might need brainstorming and I'm open to comments but I'd really love to see more focus on melee healing and legacy fix (perfect HoH healing emblem requiring 5 major...) getting rid/merging some legacies and adding a couple more
Maybe what we need is more skills that add + healing to the Song Brother target. So a trait that allows CA to drop it's DoT and gain a HoT on the Song Brother target, or traits that allow DB, PA, and BoE to give a small AoE heal (like 300-500 morale with options to crit). This would help Song Brother go from the "little brudder" brother skill to the role that the HoH capstone seems to intend it to take.
I mean, it's almost as if HoH needs some sort of new mechanic given by the capstone that helps with the goal of the line, like how ungated RC becomes an AE forced taunt, and ungated SL becomes another skill chain option - but going a different direction than ungated RC.
With enough AE Group hots + WoC, we should see comparable healing levels with a mini, if the overhealing was designed into how captain healing functions (so it's not as efficient as Mini or RK healing, but just as effective).
The off-hand statement "if the overhealing was designed into how captain healing functions" is intriguing, and now it's going to be bouncing around in my head until it dies or goes somewhere. :P
Unrelated to that, earlier tonight I was pondering the Aggressive Stance buff attached to Grave Wound. The +10% perceived threat isn't used when we're not tanking, so the skill is only used for the secondary bleed. Could be interesting, though, if Grave Wound were modified either by the 4-trait bonus or the -Brother skill to have different effects. LoM/Shield, Aggressive Stance gives +10% threat and Grave Wound does the force taunt, basically like now. LtC/Blade, AS gives +X% Critical Magnitude (or something) and GW debuffs the target's mitigations. HoH/Song (most relevant to the topic), AS gives +X% Outgoing Healing and GW applies a damage reflect debuff to the target.
The off-hand statement "if the overhealing was designed into how captain healing functions" is intriguing, and now it's going to be bouncing around in my head until it dies or goes somewhere. :P
It comes from a description I've heard for Perl being applied to the captain class to give us a unique healing persona.
For those wondering, Perl has been described as a "Swiss Army Chainsaw", it can do almost anything, just some things aren't very pretty (cryptographically strong regular expressions come to mind). So applying this to the captain, what if we're like a "Swiss Army Chainsaw" for a group? That is, we can competently fill any of the four roles, but some aren't as pretty (or efficient) as a primary role.
Our DPS persona is based around two handed weapon doing slow, but powerful hits - but our DPS tanks if we miss.
Tanking, we have to use Routing Cry forced taunt to chain taunt multiple targets (with legacies should support this style of play), but we can lock down agro on a single target better than any tank can.
Healing, we must use a ton of AE heals and hots to heal the group, with WoC and Inspire as our only single target healing skills, so we overheal like crazy. Our healing persona can best be thought of as a healing chainsaw: it works, but not very efficiently. Compare this to a mini or RK which would be like healing scalpels, they can laser focus to exactly what needs healing and heal it with almost no overhealing. Long story short, we'd make better group healers than single target, so when the group is taking massive damage, we can help keep the group up, while the mini/RK worries about using their healing to keep the tank alive - because each style of healing will focus on what it does best.
Last edited by Almagnus1; May 07 2012 at 02:00 AM.
personally i feel the Vs morale healing to be very good in 3 and 6mans and it struggles in raids
I think Song-brother goes perfectly with HOH build as the AOE power from the inspire Heals the group power more effectivly than any Loremaster and i flick between Shield brother and song brother to add the + incoming healing and out going healing skills.My dps will always be low compared to any dps class so my buffs make up the diffrence and when more dps is needed i use Bladebrother and fellowship brother combined.
Valiant Strike is very good, and I'll admit me asking for it to be buffed might make us a little OP. But I'd still like to give it a whirl and see.
And I agree with you Song Brother is a great skill It works very well in combination with Shield Brother - and gives us an almost loremaster-like quality that can be invaluable on certain fights. I can't tell you how many times I have avoided wipes with that skill by giving our ministrel power when she needed it.
Since our combat and healign are all mathematically deterministic (with a minor random element that can easily be simulated out), there are many simulations AND PARSINGS that show that the HoH capstone does not have the healing increase that should mirror the DPS scaling with the LtC Capstone and red traits.
That's Problem #1.
HoH Capstone also indicates that Song Brother should be the default healing tool for the captain, yet the observed gameplay is that Shield Brother is the preferred healing brother skill. This disconnect should not exist in the game, especially when LoM and LtC each heavily favor Shield and Blade Brother, and those are the ideal brother skills for the respective roles that the traitlines are geared for.
This is Problem #2.
Address these problems with logic, parsings, and numbers - not your boring, mindless, drivel.
And as ususal you missed my point...
Getting real tired of having to repeat myself here.
I was never saying the HoH Capstone made a huge difference to our healing. It's a nice little boost, but nothing game-breaking.
I was pointing out the contradiction in your logic. On one hand you act like wearing a shield to boost our healing is so important and that if a HoH Captain doesn't do this they don't understand how their class mechanics work and aren't "maximizing" their potential. Yet at the same time you call the superior increases to our healing the trait gives us "almost worthless" and not worth equipping. That's why I said you make no sense. Because you don't. And if anyone's posts are the "boring, mindless, drivel" it's your's.
And yes, I have already agreed with you countless times that Shield Brother is the better tool to assist with healing. The difference between us though is you act like this is a huge problem and it isn't. We can still use Shield Brother. All the introduction of Song Brother did was give us access to a nice power tool that can come in handy, especially on longer more difficult fights.
I was pointing out the contradiction in your logic. On one hand you act like wearing a shield to boost our healing is so important and that if a HoH Captain doesn't do this they don't understand how their class mechanics work and aren't "maximizing" their potential. Yet at the same time you call the superior increases to our healing the trait gives us "almost worthless" and not worth equipping. That's why I said you make no sense. Because you don't. And if anyone's posts are the "boring, mindless, drivel" it's your's.
What part of "it's an option that is slightly more optimal because of stat control and skill speed" and "it's not mandatory to do this" don't make sense to you?
What part of "it's an option that is slightly more optimal because of stat control and skill speed" and "it's not mandatory to do this" don't make sense to you?
That's not what you said earlier Almagnus...
But in the spirit of ending this I won't pursue this further.
If you are now wording the option of wearing a shield as a "slightly more optimal because of stat control and skill speed" and "it's not mandatory" I can live with that.
That sounds much better than saying HoH Captains who don't wear shields don't understand their class and don't know how to play... which is essentially what you were telling me yesterday. So I'm glad you changed your tune.
That sounds much better than saying HoH Captains who don't wear shields don't understand their class and don't know how to play... which is essentially what you were telling me yesterday. So I'm glad you changed your tune.
Probably accurate though.
Captain being the versatile class it is, if you stick to HoH by itself... how can you understand the 2 other traitlines, or even rainbow?
Furthermore, 1h weapons affect the animation speed of cries, making your cries take less time. Which means heals take less time. Also since various heals are melee heals, using a 1H allows you to apply those heals quicker. Using a shield also gives you about a 20% block rate, which is pretty awesome if you're main-healing.
Using a 1h with a shield will improve your healing capabilities, using a 2H offers no benefits to healing I'm aware of other than extra damage.
That sounds much better than saying HoH Captains who don't wear shields don't understand their class and don't know how to play... which is essentially what you were telling me yesterday. So I'm glad you changed your tune.
Cause you're a HoH captain that makes me wonder about your grasp of the class mechanics =)
And thankfully, you're one of a kind, and not representative of all HoH captains - many of which can school both of us in the captain healing arts.
Originally Posted by DuneBug
Probably accurate though.
Captain being the versatile class it is, if you stick to HoH by itself... how can you understand the 2 other traitlines, or even rainbow?
Furthermore, 1h weapons affect the animation speed of cries, making your cries take less time. Which means heals take less time. Also since various heals are melee heals, using a 1H allows you to apply those heals quicker. Using a shield also gives you about a 20% block rate, which is pretty awesome if you're main-healing.
Using a 1h with a shield will improve your healing capabilities, using a 2H offers no benefits to healing I'm aware of other than extra damage.
Keep in mind that many captains are alt-captains - so while there is a measurable increase in healing output with S&B vs 2H, many alt captains simply do not have the time to grind out the legacies AND relics of a second LI, which is why I'm trying to play this that either way is fine.
The takeaway: A good all around 2H will work for most LtC, HoH, and Rainbow builds, but a finely tuned LI (and in this case, a finely tuned 1H for HoH) will almost always be better. It's all about how much time you can devote to grind out multiple LIs, and how important it is for your captain.
Captain being the versatile class it is, if you stick to HoH by itself... how can you understand the 2 other traitlines, or even rainbow?
Furthermore, 1h weapons affect the animation speed of cries, making your cries take less time. Which means heals take less time. Also since various heals are melee heals, using a 1H allows you to apply those heals quicker. Using a shield also gives you about a 20% block rate, which is pretty awesome if you're main-healing.
Using a 1h with a shield will improve your healing capabilities, using a 2H offers no benefits to healing I'm aware of other than extra damage.
Dunebug... it isn't accurate. You and others on this thread really need to understand just because someone plays a class differently than them that doesn't mean they don't understand their class.
If you like using a shield as a HoH fine... use one. But don't tell me and all the other HoH captains who use a 2-hander that we don't understand our class. Trust me we do - and using a shield in my opinion is a very poor trade off. The amount of damage you lose just doesn't make up for the weak increases to your healing. But if you like a shield - fine, use one - but use it without trying to insult other captains who don't.
And I never claimed to understand other traitlines. So why you threw that comment at me who knows.
Cause you're a HoH captain that makes me wonder about your grasp of the class mechanics =)
And thankfully, you're one of a kind, and not representative of all HoH captains - many of which can school both of us in the captain healing arts.
.
Almagnus, if you think i'm the only HoH Captain who uses a 2-hander you do need some schooling because you have much to learn. Because trust me, I'm not the only one.
But go on ahead beleiving the way you play is the only way and anyone who doesn't agree with you just doens't understand their class... yet I'm the one you say has an "ego". I love how that works...
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