Thread: Worldwide pvmp

Not going to happen. Too much butthurt would be going on for the non-pvpers.

It would be a real sign of the end of the world should Turbine implement open world pvmp. Idea has come up too many times to count and many more here after and will probably never happen.

Easy way to do things is add mp scaling dependent on area as well as freep level scaling for areas obviously people it only down levels it doesn't temp level up. In other words in an area like barrow downs creeps will be level 15 and damage will be scaled down accordingly same with freeps above lvl 15. Then for moving around the world give creeps a map per region with shared cooldowns on areas of similar lvls like bree-land, shire, ere luin all share the same CD. Now determining approriate stats at each level for creeps should be a whole lot of work, but for freeps you can possibly use their gear stats and reduce the bonuses as well as lowering base stats to correspond to level, like in a lvl 50 are as a lvl 75 freep your stats essentially reduced by 1/3 for instance. Obviously thats not a real estimate but they should be down graded to be on par with like rift gear lets say at lvl 50.

Of course this is will never happen as I said before. The above idea of down leveling is inspired by GW 2 who uses this to make low level content still fun to higher level players, which can also be seen as a bonus to having it be pvmp related.

Originally Posted by Notaforumguy007

Easy way to do things is add mp scaling dependent on area as well as freep level scaling for areas obviously people it only down levels it doesn't temp level up.

Some people have an odd idea of what constitutes "easy", but I take your meaning as being the least complex scheme.

Alternatively, they could set the creeps level to match the lowest level critter in each zone, but I *really* do think the players of creeps would be very happy with that.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

As long as my PvE experience is not affected, I have nothing against the suggestion. I would love for you guys to get some attention, you deserve it.

Originally Posted by djheydt

They had (still have, I imagine) that in Asheron's Call. You had to do a quest (which had, IIRC, a level requirement of 20 or so) in order to become a "red dot." That done, you could fight other "red dots", not anyone else. To become a "white dot" again, you had to do another quest, which involved not having fought anyone for however-many hours -- and some "red dots" liked to hang out in the quest area and attack you so you couldn't change back. A particularly specialized form of griefing.

I was thinking something more in line with Rift's or swtor's pve servers where you right click your portrait and either set yourself as pvp or non-pvp and it was a 10 minute cooldown between the two settings.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Ganking, and--to a lesser extent--"barrens chat"--is what gets noticed by non-PvPers. I'll agree that the number of gankers is probably pretty low in most games, but it only takes one to get the attention of quite a number of non-PvPers and give PvP a bad reputation with a lot of people.

I would say that the PvP community should "police" it's own, but I seriously doubt it would work. The obvious solution--which Turbine has adopted with LoTRO--is complete separation with no way to accidentally enter the PvMP zone. (And, by using PvMP instead of the more usual sort of PvP, they have largely avoided the otherwise endless rounds of "class balancing" that is endemic to, and cause endless upset in, PvP-centeric communities and games.)

Seperation is fine, I would like wPvP but would be perfectly happy with instanced like we have if they paid any attention to it at all. It would be an arguement I would levy against wPvP because based off the track record it would go terribly. As far as the use of PvMP instead of the mirrored classes we see in most pvp systems, there is still a lot of class balancing going on over the years that will not ever be anywhere near perfect because of lack of said mirror.

Originally Posted by whheydt

PvMP, as has been pointed out numerous times before, was a late and--among the testers at the time--unpopular addition to LoTRO. I'll agree that PvMP deserves *some* attention, but expanding into plot-important areas isn't the way to go about it (no matter how devoutly wished for), nor is any change that permits either non-consenual PvP or any release into areas that the books indicate the sorts of PvMP creeps that exist didn't get into. (I.e. In the books, total death toll in Bree from the brigand takeover was *5*--Butterbur enumerates them--and the takeover didn't involve spiders.)

I agree, I would not want to see pvp in areas such as say Bree.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Pretty much as Yula says in most of these threads, if lots of good PvP is what you want, this isn't the game you're looking for.

And thats a shame the devs felt this way too, as a game with a great IP, and focus on both pve and pvp would have been an even bigger draw and could have been something really nice.

Originally Posted by Neumi

Heck no, PvP/PvMP is the last thing I want to see while questing.
Duels in public areas are annoying enough already.

I am glad that PvP/PvMP has no big importance in LotRO.

Leave it to that area please.

Thats your opinion and I guarantee there are plenty that wish the pvp had much bigger importance then it does.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

I've never seen it work in any game with PvP. There are too many PvP customers that feel that PvE play is not a valid playing style. They will do anything to either force the PvE to go "Red" (PvP flag = True).

Or get the PvE players to quit the game - For many PvP players a rage quit is the only way to win. You have made the human on the end surrender - If a single PvP player could force all the other players to log out - never log back in - This player has won the game via elimination of all opponents.

This is about as opinionated and far away from facts as I can think. I can equally say that in every pvp game I have played that while a certain small (very small) segment of the community are jerks a large majority are friendly nice players who just prefer the challenge of fighting against a live opponent instead of a scripted one. I am a "hard core" pvp player having played the softer pvp game like Rift to the more hard core rule sets like EVE. And I don't want people to rage quit, I want them to lose yes, to offer me up their loot (in the hard core system) but in the end come back as better players because bad players or those that just quit are not a challenge. As far as pve players in games like Rift or swtor that I have played I am perfectly fine with the pve people doing just that. I don't take their mobs, I don't harass them day and night hoping the will attack me and in hence automatically flagging to pvp. I hold no ill will to either my opponents nor those who don't want to play the game in that way. And many I play with agree, but much like your comment mine is as much from what I've seen and could and should be construed as from my POV.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

As long as my PvE experience is not affected, I have nothing against the suggestion. I would love for you guys to get some attention, you deserve it.

This. I wouldn't want anyones pve ruined. I am not even saying wPvP in this game is a good idea. But I do believe a serious look at pvp and a serious attempt at improving it would do wonders for this company in holding the largest player base it can.

Originally Posted by 1_v01d_0

Seperation is fine, I would like wPvP but would be perfectly happy with instanced like we have if they paid any attention to it at all. It would be an arguement I would levy against wPvP because based off the track record it would go terribly. As far as the use of PvMP instead of the mirrored classes we see in most pvp systems, there is still a lot of class balancing going on over the years that will not ever be anywhere near perfect because of lack of said mirror.

By "mirror", I presume you mean identical classes on both sides...which is usually implemented by just letting the "normal" player characters fight each other... The problem with this is, as others have alluded to, class balance. You get endless attempts to balance classes against each other and it never quite works. You also get endless complaints that this or that class is "overpowered" compared to another class and demands for buffs or nerfs to rectify it. At the same time, you get other complaints asserting the same thing, but with the classes reversed. It's rather like the comments seen in the LoTRO forums with different people asserting that creeps are overpowered, while at the same time others assert that freeps are overpowered. This balancing is a "no win" situation for Turbine.

With PvMP, Turbine can balance classes for PvE (the bulk of the game activity) and tweak the creeps to "balance" them with respect to the freeps. No one is terribly happy, but it does leave PvE without (mostly) having to deal with the needs of PvP balancing.

And thats a shame the devs felt this way too, as a game with a great IP, and focus on both pve and pvp would have been an even bigger draw and could have been something really nice.

That is an unprovable conjecture. There is testimony in many of these threads from individuals that they play LoTRO *because* it doesn't have open world PvP, and that all PvP is confined to PvMP in the Ettenmoors. You would have to show that a general PvP system would have brought in more people than it would have driven away.

Thats your opinion and I guarantee there are plenty that wish the pvp had much bigger importance then it does.

I think that's a given. The question is...how many is your "plenty"?

This is about as opinionated and far away from facts as I can think. I can equally say that in every pvp game I have played that while a certain small (very small) segment of the community are jerks a large majority are friendly nice players who just prefer the challenge of fighting against a live opponent instead of a scripted one.

It is far easier for a jerk to drive people away when they have the "tools" available from PvP than it is when they are restricted to the "tools" of PvE.

This. I wouldn't want anyones pve ruined. I am not even saying wPvP in this game is a good idea. But I do believe a serious look at pvp and a serious attempt at improving it would do wonders for this company in holding the largest player base it can.

There are people playing LoTRO who feel that being around PvP, even if they are protected from engaging in it *does* "ruin" their PvE experience. As it is, the largest player base Turbine can hold for LoTRO is the PvE base. I have very little doubt that, if push came to shove, Turbine would far rather sacrafice the dedicated PvPers than the PvEers, since there are a lot more of the latter than there are of the former.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Neumi

Heck no, PvP/PvMP is the last thing I want to see while questing.
Duels in public areas are annoying enough already.

I am glad that PvP/PvMP has no big importance in LotRO.

Leave it to that area please.

bit ego to only think about yourself

Originally Posted by 1_v01d_0

This. I wouldn't want anyones pve ruined. I am not even saying wPvP in this game is a good idea. But I do believe a serious look at pvp and a serious attempt at improving it would do wonders for this company in holding the largest player base it can.

Exactly. I'm a diehard "carebear", but I'm also a supporter of Turbine giving a very serious look at PvP. I would be so happy for you guys if you got an update dedicated to PvP. I would be willing to go without content so you guys could get your update.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Exactly. I'm a diehard "carebear", but I'm also a supporter of Turbine giving a very serious look at PvP. I would be so happy for you guys if you got an update dedicated to PvP. I would be willing to go without content so you guys could get your update.

I never thought this day would come: + rep to Nymphonic

PS: I'm totally against open PvP. But shutting down PvPers like some ppl do is just unfair and shows nothing but a selfish attitude. "Since I don't like PvP or raiding, I surely hope Turbine spends the resources they have in developing things I like." Great mentality... /nod

Originally Posted by BaneOfTheNine

I think that instead of just having 1 pvp area, we should have a worldwide pvp system, the ettenmoors is fun and all, but it gets a little stale, so i think that the ettenmoors should be opened up so monsters can get out, but so that when they get out, those freeps who arent pvping are in an alternate version of the area, that way creeps can live out their dream of raiding bree.
if the other areas could used as pvp then the cities and towns that are already there could provide the locations for keeps and outposts, and more areas means more monster deeds, and the more monster deeds means more commendations, and if there are more commendations to be had, then it could help substitute for the loss of destiny points usage... personally id love to see bree being run by creeps. ;-D
Also, instead of making pvp on freepside, vip only, all players should be able to pvp on either side, but vips should have access to certain parts of pvp, like the ranger quest, maybe buffs to make vip players on both creepside and freepside stronger and harder to kill

You should give Eve online or the pvp-rules on AoC a try if you like everywhere pvp.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

But shutting down PvPers like some ppl do is just unfair and shows nothing but a selfish attitude.

I'm not interested in seeing PvP "shut down," but .... IMO, Turbine has a choice it needs to make: either support PvMP properly, or admit they've no interest in doing so, & walk away from it.

I think there are more than enough PvP-friendly MMOs in existance that LOTRO doesn't need to be another one, & I think the loss of the hardcore PvP hounds would not hurt Turbine as much as others seem to be claiming.

Finally, I think that the only proper way to build a PvP MMO is to design it from the ground floor for PvP, & THEN tune it for PvE. But so far, every MMO developer I've seen has either done it the other way around, or else so badly botched both aspects as to ruin the entire game.

With World wide PVMP I know it's not possible. But what about a Server just for that. You can start a toon or a creep and level it .... but both toons can rome about the map freely. I am not saying to do this for all servers etc.. just one open world. Would be interesting..

I know ther would be alot of issues but maybe all creeps and freeps start at 75 reduce some NPC's but open map...

Originally Posted by DATmadild

With World wide PVMP I know it's not possible. But what about a Server just for that

I think this is a much better idea than world-wide PvMP.

What about leave it the way it is (i.e. each server has its own Ettenmoors) but give it a little love once in a while?

Landscape love, npc love, a tree and/or a building here and there... Believe me, it doesn't take much to keep the PvP crowd happy.

Signed: a non-pvper

Just merge some of the lower populated servers and use the resources freed to create a dedicated PvMP server with e.g. only moria (the map best suited for PvMP imo), then let people copy their character to that new moria server (a copy from ALL other servers) and let people bash each other. Should be enough people around to fill up moria nicely i think

Originally Posted by Fralin

Just merge some of the lower populated servers and use the resources freed to create a dedicated PvMP server with e.g. only moria (the map best suited for PvMP imo), then let people copy their character to that new moria server (a copy from ALL other servers) and let people bash each other. Should be enough people around to fill up moria nicely i think

Merging servers will not free developer resources, which is what would be required.

Originally Posted by mjk47

Merging servers will not free developer resources, which is what would be required.

I agree, Just copy a server and start anew. Leave all maps currently or if you must trim take out areas that would be too difficult to fight in. maybe even use some kind of shading to show more populated areas peopel are fighting ????

Originally Posted by Elilreth

bit ego to only think about yourself

Takes one to call one.

I´m a PvPer, as only fighting real people gives that thrill, the possibility of getting beaten, fighting NPCs is boring, repetitive and outside of instances death is extremly unlikely

However I would not like open pvp, because it spreads people out to far

I´d like to see a new pvp area, bigger than EM and not only repeatable quests, but actually a storyline (also for Creeps) and open world raid, like Angmar back in the 50s.

Real open world raids that can´t be two-manned

And Equipment barter, that is actually on the same level as Raid loot (not just armor, but jewelry too)

There are a couple lore problems with expanded PvMP.

The first is that by adding creeps to areas outside the Ettenmoors, it would open the possiblity for the creeps to win in areas where they don't belong. Each area in the PvE world corresponds to a specific time during the War of the Ring, and allowing the creeps to have a hand in events could contradict what happens in the book. Turbine isn't allowed to let evil characters triumph in this game. The best creeps can hope for is a stalemate in a shut-off zone.

The second reason is more subtle; creeps aren't supposed to have free will. They are direct servants of the enemy and there is no room for character growth. Intelligent wargs and uruk warleaders aren't allowed to do anything without explicit command from Sauron. Turbine isn't allowed to let evil characters make moral decisions.

A big gameplay problem would be having to balance players' levels. All the creeps are currently at the level cap and they would dominate every pve zone if allowed there. As it is right now, creeps are nearly the equal of the well-geared level 75 freeps in the Ettenmoors. But the vast majority of players in LOTRO would have no chance against even green creeps. Allowing creeps into the PvE zones would open up the need for creep leveling or some sort of zone-by-zone level equalization (maybe like the downward sidekicking in GW2). This isn't impossible, but extrapolating from the devs' treatment of PvMP in the past, I'd call it extremely unlikely.

I'd like to start with a couple of postulates that I hope most people will accept.

First, that Turbine is the only entity that has any chance at all of knowing accurate numbers for PvMP participation; every number or percentage from the player point of view is apocryphal, terribly limited in accuracy and scope.

Second, Turbine is a business, and as such will apply its resources in such a manner as to maximize return on investment.

Juxtaposing these two postulates against the demonstrated dearth of developer activity pursuant to PvMP leads me to a logical conclusion that Turbine is not assigning developer resources to PvMP because that subset of player activity is not large enough to warrant such an assignment.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

bit ego to only think about yourself

If LotRO wasn't one of, if not the , only MMORPG games out there that doesn't include much of a PvP component, I'd agree with you, but since practically every game besides LotRO include it as a significant component, it would seem that people insisting that every game include their preferred mechanic are the ones "thinking only of themselves"....

Originally Posted by Livejazz

I think there are more than enough PvP-friendly MMOs in existance that LOTRO doesn't need to be another one, & I think the loss of the hardcore PvP hounds would not hurt Turbine as much as others seem to be claiming.

I think it might be more then you expect. Currently you can only play as one class in pvp under the f2p model. To play any of the others you have to either a)purchase them individually or b)sub to the game. With the introduction of the commendation system and the removal of destiny points creepside has become a place that is rough getting skills and what you need surely as a low rank creep. This forces a lot to rely on buying those skills via the store and the costs add up quick. Though I don't know the full numbers, on BW alone I can tell you there is a lot of creeps who are buying their toons and spending a good deal of money to make them were they are not one shot.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

What about leave it the way it is (i.e. each server has its own Ettenmoors) but give it a little love once in a while?

Landscape love, npc love, a tree and/or a building here and there... Believe me, it doesn't take much to keep the PvP crowd happy.

Signed: a non-pvper

This shows you know little about what pvp people want or what makes us happy. We already got a tree, and that was a kick in the face from the devs. None of that is going to make us happy, 5 years we have been on the same map with basically the same set up, bugs, and inbalances.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

There are a couple lore problems with expanded PvMP.

And your telling me there aren't already lore issues as is from pve side of things? Like I don't know, a dragon when supposedly Smaug was the last one. Or RK's?

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

The second reason is more subtle; creeps aren't supposed to have free will. They are direct servants of the enemy and there is no room for character growth. Intelligent wargs and uruk warleaders aren't allowed to do anything without explicit command from Sauron. Turbine isn't allowed to let evil characters make moral decisions.

I don't see a moral decision here, expand the instanced pvp zone or had a wPvP zone to the areas bordering Mordor and they do what evil critters do, fight the free peoples. How is this radically different then what is already happening in the moors from a lore perspective?

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

A big gameplay problem would be having to balance players' levels. All the creeps are currently at the level cap and they would dominate every pve zone if allowed there. As it is right now, creeps are nearly the equal of the well-geared level 75 freeps in the Ettenmoors. But the vast majority of players in LOTRO would have no chance against even green creeps. Allowing creeps into the PvE zones would open up the need for creep leveling or some sort of zone-by-zone level equalization (maybe like the downward sidekicking in GW2). This isn't impossible, but extrapolating from the devs' treatment of PvMP in the past, I'd call it extremely unlikely.

I don't think there are many people in support of the idea that want creeps rampaging through the bree country side. I for one wouldn't want wPvP anywhere but areas almost butting up against Mordor where people would be playing at level cap. But the middle part of this paragraph is the issue. No creeps are not anywhere the equal of well geared freeps. Not even by a long shot. The difference between the two sides on classes (melee, ranged, tactical), healing and dps is blatantly in favor of the freeps.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

I never thought this day would come: + rep to Nymphonic

PS: I'm totally against open PvP. But shutting down PvPers like some ppl do is just unfair and shows nothing but a selfish attitude. "Since I don't like PvP or raiding, I surely hope Turbine spends the resources they have in developing things I like." Great mentality... /nod

Well, before I wanted just my PvE experience worked on because I had the opinion that PvP was just a side show. But when Turbine took away a perfectly working forum site and replaced it with the permanent beta I realized that the forums could also be considered a side show, and you can see my by post count I love going to the forums.

It was after that my feelings toward PvmP changed for the better. Ever since then I've backed you guys.

Originally Posted by Fralin

Just merge some of the lower populated servers and use the resources freed to create a dedicated PvMP server with e.g. only moria (the map best suited for PvMP imo), then let people copy their character to that new moria server (a copy from ALL other servers) and let people bash each other. Should be enough people around to fill up moria nicely i think

Oh no. Every MMO I've ever played I've chosen low pop servers. I don't like busy servers.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

There are a couple lore problems with expanded PvMP.

The first is that by adding creeps to areas outside the Ettenmoors, it would open the possiblity for the creeps to win in areas where they don't belong. Each area in the PvE world corresponds to a specific time during the War of the Ring, and allowing the creeps to have a hand in events could contradict what happens in the book. Turbine isn't allowed to let evil characters triumph in this game. The best creeps can hope for is a stalemate in a shut-off zone.

This is one point were playability > lore
It´s basicly the same as adding a raid like Orthanc. What happens if players wipe at Orthanc? Saruman would win a battle he hasn´t won. Let´s leave the whole "Saruman had no ring" aside. Every raid in this game has two outcomes, players beating it or players wiping. Only one of the is endings is canonical (i.e. true to lore), that´s players suceeding
In the same way would creeps attacking Bree have 2 possible outcomes, with them being defeated being the canonical ending

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

The second reason is more subtle; creeps aren't supposed to have free will. They are direct servants of the enemy and there is no room for character growth. Intelligent wargs and uruk warleaders aren't allowed to do anything without explicit command from Sauron. Turbine isn't allowed to let evil characters make moral decisions.

This isn´t true either. Soldiers of the enemy actually have a free will, they are just not used to using it. When Melkor was defeated and Sauron did not yet claim the throne of the Dark Lord (which he did in approximately 500 S.A.) any evil beings that were without their own will died. One of Tolkiens works (either Silmarillion or another book about that timeframe) said that Melkor also made orc-like being that were completly without free will and would essentially just stand there, when they were not given order, like the Dwarves before Eru gave them their own will. All those died after Melkor´s defeat and Sauron´s hiding

Originally Posted by Chris91

I´m a PvPer, as only fighting real people gives that thrill, the possibility of getting beaten,

To you.

fighting NPCs is boring, repetitive and outside of instances death is extremly unlikely

For you.

However I would not like open pvp, because it spreads people out too far

Among people who would quit if they were at risk of being PvP'd on the landscape.

I´d like to see a new pvp area, bigger than EM and not only repeatable quests, but actually a storyline (also for Creeps) and open world raid, like Angmar back in the 50s.

Sure ... except see your comment above: it would spread out the PvPers over a larger area, thus making them even more thin over the ground.

Originally Posted by Chris91

This is one point were playability > lore

It´s basicly the same as adding a raid like Orthanc. What happens if players wipe at Orthanc? Saruman would win a battle he hasn´t won. Let´s leave the whole "Saruman had no ring" aside. Every raid in this game has two outcomes, players beating it or players wiping. Only one of the is endings is canonical (i.e. true to lore), that´s players suceeding
In the same way would creeps attacking Bree have 2 possible outcomes, with them being defeated being the canonical ending

This isn´t true either. Soldiers of the enemy actually have a free will, they are just not used to using it. When Melkor was defeated and Sauron did not yet claim the throne of the Dark Lord (which he did in approximately 500 S.A.) any evil beings that were without their own will died. One of Tolkiens works (either Silmarillion or another book about that timeframe) said that Melkor also made orc-like being that were completly without free will and would essentially just stand there, when they were not given order, like the Dwarves before Eru gave them their own will. All those died after Melkor´s defeat and Sauron´s hiding

Not really. Saruman had delusions of grandeur in regards to the ring. Whether players wipe or not at Orthanc, the lore/story is unaffected. Lose or win, either ending of ToO is compatible with the lore. Saruman isn't killed either way, Orthanc isn't destroyed either way, and the books make no claim that Saruman never fought any battles but a single spar with Gandalf.

Yes, "creeps" have free will, but then, they don't have the ability or permission to do things like attack Bree without being explicitly directed to do so.

Is it possible that creeps could attack Bree, or Rivendell, or Thorins Hall canonically? I suppose it's arguable, but it's also pushing PvP into the rest of the world, which would break lore. Not to mention removing any fun if every "creep raid on the world" attempt was never winnable. Perhaps session play, like the ones in Moria where you inevitably lose, but are challenged to survive & get some kind of objective completed....

IMO, the only way to expand "PvP" that the lore/license could accomodate would be to make MPvMP - or creep vs creep, in an area like the moors that is controlled entirely by Sauron. After all, it's not like creeps weren't quite often at each others throats anyway.

However, even with arguably more resources with the WB connection, that would practically be another game, & perhaps more than Turbine would be willing to take on.

Originally Posted by 1_v01d_0

And your telling me there aren't already lore issues as is from pve side of things? Like I don't know, a dragon when supposedly Smaug was the last one. Or RK's?

I'm not saying those other lore breaks are appropriate. But having a creep faction in the game would transform the game into another type of game, a type of game that was forbidden by the license holder. I believe it was written like this: Thou shalt not have two factions in this game.

The other thing is that this game has a plot and the devs want the players invested in that plot. Having half the players rooting for the bad guy is antithetical to the meaning of LotRO.

Originally Posted by 1_v01d_0

I don't see a moral decision here, expand the instanced pvp zone or had a wPvP zone to the areas bordering Mordor and they do what evil critters do, fight the free peoples. How is this radically different then what is already happening in the moors from a lore perspective?

That might make some sense. I'm all for adding more PvMP zones and PvMP skirmishes.

Originally Posted by 1_v01d_0

I don't think there are many people in support of the idea that want creeps rampaging through the bree country side. I for one wouldn't want wPvP anywhere but areas almost butting up against Mordor where people would be playing at level cap. But the middle part of this paragraph is the issue. No creeps are not anywhere the equal of well geared freeps. Not even by a long shot. The difference between the two sides on classes (melee, ranged, tactical), healing and dps is blatantly in favor of the freeps.

I didn't mean to imply that the Moors is balanced at the moment. It isn't. But to balance creeps and freeps would just require some tweaks to creep dps and healing. I have no idea why the devs refuse to do this.

But a green warg would eat a level 73 minstrel in Dunland for lunch. There's no contest.

Originally Posted by Chris91

This is one point were playability > lore
It´s basicly the same as adding a raid like Orthanc. What happens if players wipe at Orthanc? Saruman would win a battle he hasn´t won. Let´s leave the whole "Saruman had no ring" aside. Every raid in this game has two outcomes, players beating it or players wiping. Only one of the is endings is canonical (i.e. true to lore), that´s players suceeding
In the same way would creeps attacking Bree have 2 possible outcomes, with them being defeated being the canonical ending

You don't get defeated in Orthanc, though. You lose morale and you get to try again. As soon as you wipe, Saruman resets to the state he was in before the fight; he doesn't start using his ring to fry Rohan. Saruman is still there waiting for you.

But I suspect that this approach could work for creep PvE.

Originally Posted by Chris91

This isn´t true either. Soldiers of the enemy actually have a free will, they are just not used to using it. When Melkor was defeated and Sauron did not yet claim the throne of the Dark Lord (which he did in approximately 500 S.A.) any evil beings that were without their own will died. One of Tolkiens works (either Silmarillion or another book about that timeframe) said that Melkor also made orc-like being that were completly without free will and would essentially just stand there, when they were not given order, like the Dwarves before Eru gave them their own will. All those died after Melkor´s defeat and Sauron´s hiding

Basically Middle Earth has two types of people: Free Peoples and everything else. Apart from the PvMP stalemate zone, there is only one outcome, that the free people win in the end. They may need more than one shot, but they have to win. Remember what happens after the battle of Helms Deep? The Dunlandings surrender, but the orcs are all destroyed. They are destroyed because in Tolkien's world orcs are pure evil and there is no other outcome for them. Sam and Frodo are saddened by seeing the corpse of an Easterling that Faramir's band killed, but they don't ever show any remorse for orcs, spiders, and trolls.

Another thing I don't like much is fighting other people. It's fun once in a while to enjoy PvMP as a diversion, but it's not so soul-crushing since the fights in the Ettenmoors are meaningless and I can get out of there whenever I want. If I saw a player-controlled creep marching around Bree or Rivendell, I would become furious.

The idea is that they allow us to play creeps in a meaningless stalemate game (and barely), but I don't think they want any players to get too attached to Sauron's side in the war.

Originally Posted by 1_v01d_0

I don't think there are many people in support of the idea that want creeps rampaging through the bree country side. I for one wouldn't want wPvP anywhere but areas almost butting up against Mordor where people would be playing at level cap

I could support new zones, similar to DAoC's "frontier" areas, where something closer to "open" PvP could take place.

Anything more than that, I'd oppose.

Originally Posted by Neumi

Heck no, PvP/PvMP is the last thing I want to see while questing.
Duels in public areas are annoying enough already.

I am glad that PvP/PvMP has no big importance in LotRO.

Leave it to that area please.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

bit ego to only think about yourself

Originally Posted by djheydt

Takes one to call one.

Bravo Mrs. Heydt.

So let me get this straight: someone clearly shows his/her total lack of interest in PvP. Because he/she doesn't like it, it means it should have little to no importance to him/her. Way to go team. /nod

Elireth questioned Neumi stance as quite a selfish one. Which it is. Just read it again.

And you bash Elireth for pointing out the truth? lol.

As many people said before, no game will survive in the long run with only ONE playstyle. Face it. Like your friend Khafar always points out, it's important to attract an array of different playstyles and try to keep them satisfied (i.e. spending money).

If you and you're hubby were in charge, there would be no PvP nor any group content in LOTRO. Please, just because you don't like doesn't mean it's not a valid playstyle. Respect the others if you want to be respected.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

If you and your hubby were in charge, there would be no PvP

Right.

nor any group content in LOTRO

Wrong.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

Bravo Mrs. Heydt.

So let me get this straight: someone clearly shows his/her total lack of interest in PvP. Because he/she doesn't like it, it means it should have little to no importance to him/her. Way to go team. /nod

Elireth questioned Neumi stance as quite a selfish one. Which it is. Just read it again.

And you bash Elireth for pointing out the truth? lol.

As many people said before, no game will survive in the long run with only ONE playstyle. Face it. Like your friend Khafar always points out, it's important to attract an array of different playstyles and try to keep them satisfied (i.e. spending money).

If you and you're hubby were in charge, there would be no PvP nor any group content in LOTRO. Please, just because you don't like doesn't mean it's not a valid playstyle. Respect the others if you want to be respected.

Cheers.

Here I have to disagree with you (and Khafar). It is not necessary to have more than one play style for a game to survive, any more than it is necessary for a restaurant to have more than one style of cuisine to survive. (Unless Demolition Man was correct, and all restraurants end up as Taco Bells.) Supporting more than one play style is an attempt to enhance revenue, not ensure it.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

If you and you're hubby were in charge, there would be no PvP nor any group content in LOTRO. Please, just because you don't like doesn't mean it's not a valid playstyle. Respect the others if you want to be respected.

Had I been in charge 6 years ago, the decision to *add* PvMP would never have been made and threads like this would have a completely different character.

I don't delude myself into thinking that, had LoTRO never had PvMP, there wouldn't be people asking to have PvP added, but it would be a whole lot easier to answer that, since it didn't exist, there was no particular reason to add it.

Since we *do* have PvMP, it is reasonable to ask for balancing to be done (so long as it is done solely on the creep side) and bugs be fixed, but that's not what this thread is asking for.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Livejazz

I could support new zones, similar to DAoC's "frontier" areas, where something closer to "open" PvP could take place.

Anything more than that, I'd oppose.

I don't know anything about DAoC, let alone its concept of "frontier" areas, but I'm wary of the idea of designing future PvE areas in a way that would Creeps or some other variation of Pv(M)P sneak in there. That kind of thing could well mean that I wouldn't go into the new areas at all which would restrict my gaming experience (e.g. by making a new level-cap that much harder to reach).

I could arrange myself with Pv(M)P-affiliated new PvE areas only if they either were designed in a way that kept the Pv(M)P part away from those who want to explore the new area as pure PvE (e.g. by sophisticated layering) and that would be my preferred solution in this case.
Or if the expansion/update in question featured two or more new areas that were roughly equal to each other in terms of content, with half the new areas being Pv(M)P-affiliated and the other half not, provided that both portions of the new content were large enough to make playing through only one of them an enjoyable and satisfying experience. (Think for example an expansion that gave Gondor as a pure PvE region plus South Ithilien as a Pv(M)P-affiliated region.)

That last idea would of course require twice as much content as a "normal" PvE addition to the game. There would have to be twice as many quests, twice as many vendors, twice as many mobs, twice as much landscape... And that's why I would prefer a layering solution.

Originally Posted by Anyelir

I don't know anything about DAoC, let alone its concept of "frontier" areas, but I'm wary of the idea of designing future PvE areas in a way that would Creeps or some other variation of Pv(M)P sneak in there.

IIRC, you couldn't sneak through to your enemy lands in DAoC, or if you could, it was only at very high levels & very dangerous regardless. The frontier zones weren't intended for normal PvE questing, so it wasn't like PvE players were really missing anything by not going to them.

That's the only way I could tolerate "open world" PvP -- that, of if it were moved to a separate server.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

IIRC, you couldn't sneak through to your enemy lands in DAoC, or if you could, it was only at very high levels & very dangerous regardless. The frontier zones weren't intended for normal PvE questing, so it wasn't like PvE players were really missing anything by not going to them.

That's the only way I could tolerate "open world" PvP -- that, of if it were moved to a separate server.

So frontier areas in DAoC are a kind of buffer zones between the areas controlled by/intended for the different in-game factions? That would work best between areas dedicated to roughly equivalent factions, I think.

At the moment, Creeps lack a lot of the content Freeps have (e.g. levelling, proper settlements outside of the Ettenmoors, mail and vault system). Would a buffer area be feasible without those? Or would the introduction of a buffer area neccessitate a whole lot of new Creep content? IMO, it wouldn't make that much sense to add a new PvE area and a buffer zone beyond that if all beyond that puffer zone was the current Ettenmoors, would it?