I think that instead of just having 1 pvp area, we should have a worldwide pvp system, the ettenmoors is fun and all, but it gets a little stale, so i think that the ettenmoors should be opened up so monsters can get out, but so that when they get out, those freeps who arent pvping are in an alternate version of the area, that way creeps can live out their dream of raiding bree.
if the other areas could used as pvp then the cities and towns that are already there could provide the locations for keeps and outposts, and more areas means more monster deeds, and the more monster deeds means more commendations, and if there are more commendations to be had, then it could help substitute for the loss of destiny points usage... personally id love to see bree being run by creeps. ;-D
Also, instead of making pvp on freepside, vip only, all players should be able to pvp on either side, but vips should have access to certain parts of pvp, like the ranger quest, maybe buffs to make vip players on both creepside and freepside stronger and harder to kill
Last edited by BaneOfTheNine; May 01 2012 at 04:33 PM.
There are so many factors and stuff they would have to edit to allow this to happen, they cant just make a path for us to get out to Bree, then what? we would stand in a massive area while having nothing to do, but running from Buckland to Midgewater, If they went in for this they would maaaybe be done until the expansion after RoR and I doubt they will do that.
For Instance: OOC: Freeps at Forochel,
"im in forochel, where are they now?"
"oh they went to eregion 30min ago"......
It would just become too massive, I support this idea, but they would have to edit ALOT.
/signed for whatever its worth
Last edited by Witch0King; May 01 2012 at 04:48 PM.
i think that the ettenmoors should be opened up so monsters can get out, but so that when they get out, those freeps who arent pvping are in an alternate version of the area
This is the part that makes your suggestion palatable to me. Many people play LotRO because they can do so without participating in PvMP and forcing open-world PvMP on them would be a discomfort to them. If Freeps can be flagged to participate in PvMP and get transfered to a different layer they share with Creeps then, I have no problem with this idea. I'd simply stick to my safe non-PvMP layer and pretend nothing had changed at all. ;-)
Monster Raids in Bree, Shire, Rivendell, or almost any other area we have experienced so far would be the worst imaginable hit to the heart of Tolkien's story - there is no possible way to have that and still say we're playing "Lord of the Rings". No way the IP holders could approve that, without devaluating it once and for all.
What I could think of as possible is having a PVMP zone in the depths of Moria, or somewhere in Mirkwood, or any other such out-of-the-way corners of Midddle-Earth.
But PVMP all over the place? No way.
in my thoughts and in my dreams they´re always in my mind
these songs of hobbits, dwarves and men and elves
come close your eyes
you can see them, too
Monster Raids in Bree, Shire, Rivendell, or almost any other area we have experienced so far would be the worst imaginable hit to the heart of Tolkien's story - there is no possible way to have that and still say we're playing "Lord of the Rings". No way the IP holders could approve that, without devaluating it once and for all.
What I could think of as possible is having a PVMP zone in the depths of Moria, or somewhere in Mirkwood, or any other such out-of-the-way corners of Midddle-Earth.
But PVMP all over the place? No way.
Lore friendly? yes.
I agree that each place like Mirkwood, Moria, Eriador should have a PvP zone, but It would divide the creeps & Freeps, allready few enough as we are.
I enjoy PvMP as a Freep in the 'Moors. However, I am not agreeing to worldwide PvMP. It is also never going to happen in this game.
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Make it time-boxed and opt-in only. On specific days, creeps can run amok around the map. However, freeps have to opt-in to world-wide PVP to be able to attack/be attacked by them. Then creeps and opted-in freeps can duke it out wherever they want and those not keen needn't be affected.
Another idea: Once a day a particular creep or group of creeps (selected by lottery or something) gets to roam abroad and those freeps opted in have to hunt him/them down. Prizes for the creep for every pursuer he takes out or longer he survives and likewise for whoever finally subdues him. Lots of cool possibilities here, albeit doubtless challenging to implement.
It is not something that Turbine has ever shown any interest in. The introduction of PvMP and spars was a late addition to the game prior to launch. The original plan was to launch as a fully cooperative PvE game with zero player versus player conflict opportunities.
The game is designed around the concept that are characters are all supporting Faction Gandalf - helping in the great task to deliver the ring to Mount Doom to be destroyed. It is not a traditional MMORPG. It more a personal story game for us and our friends. There is only one story. Us helping Faction Gandalf.
By current standards it is one dimensional. It is like playing SWTOR, you can't not play on the Empire side.
I enjoy PvP some of the time. Not our PvP.
IMHO - I do not believe Turbine made the right decision by incorporating a non-standard competitve game play via PvMP. Turbine would have been better off leaving PvMP out of the game. As to whether, this odd ball implementation is economically viable for Turbine. No idea. I have a feeling that Turbine is getting a decent return on their investment in develiopment resources. I do not believe our limited PvP is any where near the cost of a standad implementation like what is in SWTOR.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; May 01 2012 at 05:15 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
The best solution would be to make a PVP only server that was worldwide, with free character copy from non pvp server's. This would increase the pvp population on that server to make worldwide pvp populous enough to make it worthwhile, at the same time eliminating the angst of pvp vs non pvp players.
However the license will never allow this, Turbine barely talked the license holders into allowing the little pvp you have now.
It is not something that Turbine has ever shown any interest in. The introduction of PvMP and spars was a late addition to the game prior to launch. The original plan was to launch as a fully cooperative PvE game with zero player versus player conflict opportunities.
The game is designed around the concept that are characters are all supporting Faction Gandalf - helping in the great task to deliver the ring to Mount Doom to be destroyed. It is not a traditional MMORPG. It more a personal story game for us and our friends. There is only one story. Us helping Faction Gandalf.
By current standards it is one dimensional. It is like playing SWTOR, you can't not play on the Empire side.
I enjoy PvP some of the time. Not our PvP. I do not believe Turbine made the right decision by incorporating a non-standard competitve game play via PvMP.
Imagine how much more fantastic this game would be if they had the time and requirements to make it so that you could choose either to be a servant of evil or light and everyone collided in the middle *drool*.
Open world PvP sounds good in theory but it's not. It's not pvp.. it's quest ganking online. It's no more PvP then farming Rank 0 creeps at HH.
Fighting an opponent that is ready is pvp.
Fighting an opponent that has 4 mobs on him is lame.
Aion has you equip pve gear in an open world to quest while the enemy has pvp gear on that makes your pve gear useless. It's "PvP" consist of ganking people in pve gear, and ganking people with mobs on them.
For Rift the only people pvping in open world are rogues, and they leave if they are losing... So its PvP is one directional (stealth class WAI)
Imagine how much more fantastic this game would be if they had the time and requirements to make it so that you could choose either to be a servant of evil or light and everyone collided in the middle *drool*.
LOTRO would have a different customer base. I would have found a game with cooperative PvE play. I would be playing that game with my PvE friends.
I came to Lotro because I was already playing a game with good PvP. It is hard to find a game with good PvP play that has a solid opt out when you to do cooperative PvE play. Most of them have mechanisms like Eve Online, that do not work very well. They have systems that punish the killer after they interfere with your game play. Or allow the PvP player to do the "I am not touching you" while interfering with your game play.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; May 01 2012 at 05:35 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Open world PvP sounds good in theory but it's not. It's not pvp.. it's quest ganking online. It's no more PvP then farming Rank 0 creeps at HH.
Fighting an opponent that is ready is pvp.
Fighting an opponent that has 4 mobs on him is lame.
Aion has you equip pve gear in an open world to quest while the enemy has pvp gear on that makes your pve gear useless. It's "PvP" consist of ganking people in pve gear, and ganking people with mobs on them.
For Rift the only people pvping in open world are rogues, and they leave if they are losing... So its PvP is one directional (stealth class WAI)
Yeah, that's how open-world PvP always seems to turn out from what I've seen.
Stealth/ganking classes love it, while for most everyone else it's an annoyance at best.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Yeah, that's how open-world PvP always seems to turn out from what I've seen.
Stealth/ganking classes love it, while for most everyone else it's an annoyance at best.
Eve Online is famous for the one shot kill from stealth. You do not even know you are being stalked until you are dead. The buddies of the killer loot your corpse.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Imagine how much more fantastic this game would be if they had the time and requirements to make it so that you could choose either to be a servant of evil or light and everyone collided in the middle *drool*.
That was considered before Turbine acquired the license, back when the game was to be called "Middle-earth Online". At least one developer from that period has since stated that it was a dreadful idea. (There's a blog around somewhere that, no doubt, someone will post a link to where he discusses it.)
But to come back the original suggestion...the layer selection would have to come with a warning and a confirmation screen and there would have to be "layered" chat channels to go with.
I think that instead of just having 1 pvp area, we should have a worldwide pvp system, the ettenmoors is fun and all, but it gets a little stale, so i think that the ettenmoors should be opened up so monsters can get out, but so that when they get out, those freeps who arent pvping are in an alternate version of the area, that way creeps can live out their dream of raiding bree.
if the other areas could used as pvp then the cities and towns that are already there could provide the locations for keeps and outposts, and more areas means more monster deeds, and the more monster deeds means more commendations, and if there are more commendations to be had, then it could help substitute for the loss of destiny points usage... personally id love to see bree being run by creeps. ;-D
Also, instead of making pvp on freepside, vip only, all players should be able to pvp on either side, but vips should have access to certain parts of pvp, like the ranger quest, maybe buffs to make vip players on both creepside and freepside stronger and harder to kill
Join the Kahrun server in Aion. It's an open world pvp server. You should hurry though, before everyone levels up.
That was considered before Turbine acquired the license, back when the game was to be called "Middle-earth Online". At least one developer from that period has since stated that it was a dreadful idea. (There's a blog around somewhere that, no doubt, someone will post a link to where he discusses it.)
Welcome to the MMO where PvP is not a priority, for which many folk are grateful.
I enjoy pvp only when I can make the decision to PvP and it's fair PvP. You get slaughtered as a new mp. I know they have to do that because there are more mps, but it sucks being the cow.
I could see them doing this on a special server, but not on every server -- I think it would be technically very difficult to have both PvP & non-PvP areas of the same zone at the same time, especially if you want to eliminate lag.
Beyond that, as others have said: Turbine had to fight to get what little PvP there is, & it's doubtful that the license holders would agree to expand it. I really wish Turbine would sticky a response like that, so threads like this pop up a little less often then they currently do.
Fare you well ... let your life proceed by its own design
Nothing to tell ... let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.
All technical issues ignoring - I like the idea for one special stand alone server.
What I think might add some spice are palyer controlled NPCs (Yeah I see the pun here).
Idea: As Creep you can "earn" free world time.
In that time you can play as a former npc monster in a closed (but wide) area.
That should be highly limited like one per day on a server.
The creep should get good rewards, but freeps should only get good awards when they aren't overleveld.
Something like that.. it's just a draft idea.
What I think might add some spice are palyer controlled NPCs (Yeah I see the pun here).
Idea: As Creep you can "earn" free world time.
In that time you can play as a former npc monster in a closed (but wide) area.
That's something I'd only be okay with if the player-controlled mob was either clearly flagged as player-controlled (to give players some warning) or located in a way that made it impossible to encounter it by accident.
I really don't like Pv(M)P and I don't want to (have to) participate in it without fair warning, not even if the other player is okay with it. I simply take no delight whatsoever in fighting another human being in that way.
As long as my characters would not be subject in any way shape or form to mandatory participation in any PvP, I say... Why not allow those of you who do to play outside of your little area?
If you are asking for the ability to bring PvP to those of us who choose to avoid it though.... No thank you.
"Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." - Marcus Aelius Aurelius
That's something I'd only be okay with if the player-controlled mob was either clearly flagged as player-controlled (to give players some warning) or located in a way that made it impossible to encounter it by accident.
I really don't like Pv(M)P and I don't want to (have to) participate in it without fair warning, not even if the other player is okay with it. I simply take no delight whatsoever in fighting another human being in that way.
Hear, hear.
I don't know about DDO, since I never played it since the beta, but the other Turbine games I've played have been conscientious about keeping Pv[any kind of]P consensual. Whether you have to do a quest to become a "red dot" or go off to the Moors, you can't wander into PvP and get inadvertently ganked.
I don't know about DDO, since I never played it since the beta, but the other Turbine games I've played have been conscientious about keeping Pv[any kind of]P consensual. Whether you have to do a quest to become a "red dot" or go off to the Moors, you can't wander into PvP and get inadvertently ganked.
The last time I played DDO, the only PvP was strictly consensual dueling in certain taverns. Those forums also regularly had "moar PvP plzzzzzzz" posts popping up, but I've never heard of anything happening as a result, & I kinda doubt anything will.
Fare you well ... let your life proceed by its own design
Nothing to tell ... let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.
The last time I played DDO, the only PvP was strictly consensual dueling in certain taverns. Those forums also regularly had "moar PvP plzzzzzzz" posts popping up, but I've never heard of anything happening as a result, & I kinda doubt anything will.
Thank you for the information; it is consistent with everything else Turbine has done.
I don't know about DDO, since I never played it since the beta, but the other Turbine games I've played have been conscientious about keeping Pv[any kind of]P consensual. Whether you have to do a quest to become a "red dot" or go off to the Moors, you can't wander into PvP and get inadvertently ganked.
Not strictly true, unless you restrict the domain to "currently active" Turbine games. In AC2 it was possible to accidentally wander in a KvK or PvP area and at least one portal route was modified because of it. But since AC2 was shut down, no CURRENT Turbine game has such a feature.
I would love open world pvp in areas of the map that were openly hostile, like Moria and closer to Mordor. I think it would bring a real element of danger. That said I understand that a lot of people don't want non consensual pvp. A possible look at the solution instead of seperate layers or what have you is just the ability to flag yourself on or off for pvp.
As far as the sentiment that ganking is all that happens in open world pvp and that it isn't pvp, well that is just wrong. First in every game I have played with open world pvp yes there was ganking but that is not all. Secondly whether you like it or not ganking is pvp just as zerging and spawn/rez camping is pvp. Is it the lowest common denominator, sure. But it is still pvp and to play the devils advocate, it could be considered a valid form as you don't want your enemy leveling easy and in hence getting more powerful.
All in all I I would say yes to open world pvp, but barring that make instanced pvp zones that worked together and had actual attention from the devs. Pvp in this game is what it is really, which is a forgotten waste.
I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl
BaalStorm, Sing Omega
I would love open world pvp in areas of the map that were openly hostile, like Moria and closer to Mordor. I think it would bring a real element of danger. That said I understand that a lot of people don't want non consensual pvp. A possible look at the solution instead of seperate layers or what have you is just the ability to flag yourself on or off for pvp.
They had (still have, I imagine) that in Asheron's Call. You had to do a quest (which had, IIRC, a level requirement of 20 or so) in order to become a "red dot." That done, you could fight other "red dots", not anyone else. To become a "white dot" again, you had to do another quest, which involved not having fought anyone for however-many hours -- and some "red dots" liked to hang out in the quest area and attack you so you couldn't change back. A particularly specialized form of griefing.
On the "normal" worlds on which I played, I hardly ever saw a red dot on my radar. There was one in our Allegiance. Once in a blue moon you'd see a red dot approach, crying "Peace," meaning he just wanted to hit the vendor or something, not to fight. There was one occasion on which a red dot, level 21 or so, approached our Allegiance house, looking for a fight. Literally. Our one red dot (who was then level 65 or so, I think) happened to be hanging around the house, and this kid challenged him. "Be reasonable," our guy said. "Look at my level. Look at yours. If I fight you I kill you in a matter of seconds; where's the fun in that for me or for you?" But the kid insisted, so our guy killed him. The only good thing about that is that he went away and stayed away.
There was also the world called Darktide, which was all-PvP and you were a red dot from the moment you logged in. Its population was about 10% of any of the other worlds.
And this was years ago; I have no idea what AC is like nowadays. Anyone still play it, and want to report?
A possible look at the solution instead of seperate layers or what have you is just the ability to flag yourself on or off for pvp.
Djh has covered this in her discussion of the condition in AC.
As far as the sentiment that ganking is all that happens in open world pvp and that it isn't pvp, well that is just wrong. First in every game I have played with open world pvp yes there was ganking but that is not all.
Ganking, and--to a lesser extent--"barrens chat"--is what gets noticed by non-PvPers. I'll agree that the number of gankers is probably pretty low in most games, but it only takes one to get the attention of quite a number of non-PvPers and give PvP a bad reputation with a lot of people.
I would say that the PvP community should "police" it's own, but I seriously doubt it would work. The obvious solution--which Turbine has adopted with LoTRO--is complete separation with no way to accidentally enter the PvMP zone. (And, by using PvMP instead of the more usual sort of PvP, they have largely avoided the otherwise endless rounds of "class balancing" that is endemic to, and cause endless upset in, PvP-centeric communities and games.)
All in all I I would say yes to open world pvp, but barring that make instanced pvp zones that worked together and had actual attention from the devs. Pvp in this game is what it is really, which is a forgotten waste.
PvMP, as has been pointed out numerous times before, was a late and--among the testers at the time--unpopular addition to LoTRO. I'll agree that PvMP deserves *some* attention, but expanding into plot-important areas isn't the way to go about it (no matter how devoutly wished for), nor is any change that permits either non-consenual PvP or any release into areas that the books indicate the sorts of PvMP creeps that exist didn't get into. (I.e. In the books, total death toll in Bree from the brigand takeover was *5*--Butterbur enumerates them--and the takeover didn't involve spiders.)
Pretty much as Yula says in most of these threads, if lots of good PvP is what you want, this isn't the game you're looking for.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Last edited by whheydt; May 02 2012 at 05:03 PM.
Reason: I can't count today...
(I.e. In the books, total death toll in Bree from the brigand takeover was *5*--Butterbur enumerates them--and the takeover didn't involve spiders.)
"It all comes of those newcomers and gangrels that began coming up the Greenway last year, as you may remember; but more came later. Some were just poor bodies running away from trouble; but most were bad men, full o' thievery and mischief. And there was trouble right here in Bree, bad trouble. Why, we had a real set-to, and there were some folk killed, killed dead! If you'll believe me."
"I will indeed," said Gandalf. How many?"
"Three and two," said Butterbur, referring to the big folk and the little. There was poor Mat Heathertoes, and Rowlie Appledore, and little Tom Pickthorn from over the Hill; and Willie Banks from up-away, and one of the Underhills from Staddle: all good fellows, and they're missed."
In fact, Tolkien gives names to more of the Bree-victims than he does to the Rangers.
Secondly whether you like it or not ganking is pvp just as zerging and spawn/rez camping is pvp. Is it the lowest common denominator, sure. But it is still pvp and to play the devils advocate, it could be considered a valid form as you don't want your enemy leveling easy and in hence getting more powerful
That's a perfectly valid & reasonable argument for having a PvP server. It's not a valid argument for having open PvP on Imladris.
Fare you well ... let your life proceed by its own design
Nothing to tell ... let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.
I would say that the PvP community should "police" it's own, but I seriously doubt it would work.
I've never seen it work in any game with PvP. There are too many PvP customers that feel that PvE play is not a valid playing style. They will do anything to either force the PvE to go "Red" (PvP flag = True).
Or get the PvE players to quit the game - For many PvP players a rage quit is the only way to win. You have made the human on the end surrender - If a single PvP player could force all the other players to log out - never log back in - This player has won the game via elimination of all opponents.
The problem with PvP layers on a world like Meneldor is the operating cost to Turbine for the layers. The PvP layers are going to be very lightly populated. Most of the players are going to stay in the PvE layers.
This situation implies that the solution is a special rule server with open world PvP and no PvE layer is the solution. Now Turbine has spend all this money to have two versions of the game software. Plus added a world that draws down the populations on all the other servers. Historically via their first two games Turbine not been able make a financial go of this solution.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; May 02 2012 at 10:00 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
The lack of focus on PvP has actually helped LOTRO become the game it is today. It allows the developers to primarily focus on PvE balancing which is completely different from PvP balancing. This allows them more freedom in class design. The ROI Minstrel update caused a bit of grumbling from the Creeps...imagine what would happen if PvP was a main focus of the game...or just look at forums from games with major PvP components. Class changes are guaranteed to make someone angry.
They had (still have, I imagine) that in Asheron's Call. You had to do a quest (which had, IIRC, a level requirement of 20 or so) in order to become a "red dot." That done, you could fight other "red dots", not anyone else. To become a "white dot" again, you had to do another quest, which involved not having fought anyone for however-many hours -- and some "red dots" liked to hang out in the quest area and attack you so you couldn't change back. A particularly specialized form of griefing.
Turbine put in additional altars in AC. It became really easy to switch back and forth. You could turn red. Run the red only quest(s) to get your reward. Immediately go to one of these altars and change back to white. I never had any issues going from white to red and back again. There never were many Reds on worlds like HG after the implementation of Pklite.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
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