Thread: Fire versus Lightning parses

Tired of seeing all the debates about which is better. Post your parses here. (ideally from Orthanc)

Include (prefferably in the screenshot) the number of Burglars, whether or not you had Blade-Brother, how you were traited, and any other buffs.

Reserved.

I'll do a fire parse against Tier 2 Rift skirmish, last boss. It will be around 1000 DPS; he must have some decent mitigation. I have done higher parses. But the last boss of that skirmish is easy/fast to get to, lives long enough for a half-meaningful parse, and won't kill me.

Edit: 1043 DPS. Click here for the screenie.

Sorry, I don't have any post-update Orthanc parses. And I usually try to parse without any other buffs. Anything else is just a confounding variable. Solo is the best way to parse.

BTW, I don't see your parse or screenshot, Fasin.

I usually get to 1.9\1.8k dps on lightning t2 boss, and
I have a first ager, usually with two burgs and a cappy. (with fire dps)

My kin usually runs with one Burglar, Captains don't have the pvp set (for 10% more damage). I only have two recent screenshots. I'll get more in a few days.

Blade-brother, no healing Runekeeper buff, two Burglars. (keep in mind Runekeepers don't really get auto attacks during this fight)

No Blade-brother, no healing Runekeeper buff, one Burglar.

Don't ask me why my character journal is always up when I take a screenshot.

Also, screenshots or it didn't happen :/.

Edit: Lightning traited. The first parse is Shadow T2C, the second is Lightning T2C.

well ur stats seems to be better then mine,somewhy.. i don't have the "first age" necklace or the bracelet u got(not the root's poisoner), and i actually haven't got to check my dps with my first ager yet,got it few days ago and havent played since then,i'll try to improve my stats,even though i have no idea what else i can improve... and i'll screenshot

Fasin were you assigned to kill lights in which case, what skills did you use to kill it and was it only you killing them or did you get help from another rk/hunter/burglar?

Also what was your tactic on lightning and did you hit the boss before he was positioned for melee to hit him too?

Originally Posted by Nokor

Fasin were you assigned to kill lights in which case, what skills did you use to kill it and was it only you killing them or did you get help from another rk/hunter/burglar?

Also what was your tactic on lightning and did you hit the boss before he was positioned for melee to hit him too?

Yes, I killed Lights. Two Hunters were also on lights. Ranged dps (including me) killed roots that needed killing, the Defilers, the Lights, and the Ravagers that we kill.

Didn't hit Kalbak till melee could, but that's only a second or two.

Parsing with buffs from other players is almost meaningless. The buffs/debuffs that they grant can be different from one player to the next, and so can't really be compared to anything. Fasin, run a Solo T2 Rift skirmish and parse against the last boss. It doesn't take more than 10 minutes to get to. Remember to unslot any of the yellow skirmish training buffs you give yourself. I slot evade buffs in those slots so they don't skew my dps.

I don't think anyone else will do it. I'm quite surprised too, but it seems the RK community in general is pretty cowardly. I have a suspicion that no one at all will actually parse the Rift skirmish fight. Most RK's that I've seen are too afraid their DPS won't size up. They hide behind the guise that "It's not a meaningful parse," or "I can't be bothered to run a Rift skirmish." But it's really just insecurity.

Regardless, reproducing the exact circumstances that you are parsing against is pretty difficult for most RK's, and impossible for some (myself included). Running a solo Rift skirmish is something anyone can do, is scalable by level, and is extremely easy to reproduce reliably. Any takers?

So do you use a healer exclusively on these runs? I currently have a protector, and that my skew the results a bit.
I'm game for trying this out both fire and lightning traited, because I have maxxed 2nd agers for both types.
I may also try it out on my burg to satisfy some other curisous folks around here

Originally Posted by ShammWoww

So do you use a healer exclusively on these runs? I currently have a protector, and that my skew the results a bit.
I'm game for trying this out both fire and lightning traited, because I have maxxed 2nd agers for both types.
I may also try it out on my burg to satisfy some other curisous folks around here

Yup, herbalist. The only buffs I use are the ones I can apply myself. No passive skirmish buffs, no buffs from other players.

I don't have any lightning gear, or I'd do it myself. I'm decently well-equipped with fire gear. My legendary stones/satchel is nearly maxed, but I could use some better armor/jewelry. Took a break from the grind do so some anniversary stuff.

Some of the encounters in that skirmish make for nice parses too, and it would be very nice to not only parse fire vs. lightning on Erebun, but on some of the encounters as well. This will reveal any differences in mitigations between Erebun and the encounters. Surprisingly, Nurnor and the Fire Grim don't have any special fire mitigation, but they both hit pretty hard. The orc and the angmarim are nice; you can pretty much just stand and take the abuse. The darkling CAN be a good parse, but he hits hard, so you have to make sure you start from max distance. With fire, if you have to move, it kills DPS. With lightning, that darkling would probably make a good parse because moving around isn't a problem.

What program are you guys using for your parsing? The only thing I've been able to find is CStats, but it looks like it stopped working sometime in 2010. Naturally, I won't be able to contribute much to this discusison (unless someone wants to compare fire and lightning DPS at lower levels), but learning how to parse looks like a good skill to have moving forwards.

Originally Posted by Eruion

What program are you guys using for your parsing? The only thing I've been able to find is CStats, but it looks like it stopped working sometime in 2010. Naturally, I won't be able to contribute much to this discusison (unless someone wants to compare fire and lightning DPS at lower levels), but learning how to parse looks like a good skill to have moving forwards.

Combat Analysis
http://www.lotrointerface.com/downlo...502-4.1.5.html

It's a good mini-game as well, always fun to do something like a Carn Dum duo to just see the big hits... 5k burst DPS is a good goal Or anything with inspiration
As a side-note, 1-1.2k sustained DPS is about right for a casual raiding hunter (decent gear, but lacking a first-ager and the Saruman deed for the 5-set)

Originally Posted by Strikerin

Combat Analysis
http://www.lotrointerface.com/downlo...502-4.1.5.html

It's a good mini-game as well, always fun to do something like a Carn Dum duo to just see the big hits... 5k burst DPS is a good goal Or anything with inspiration
As a side-note, 1-1.2k sustained DPS is about right for a casual raiding hunter (decent gear, but lacking a first-ager and the Saruman deed for the 5-set)

Thank you very much! It looks like I have my work cut out for me, as I can't clear 200 DPS yet :P

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Parsing with buffs from other players is almost meaningless. The buffs/debuffs that they grant can be different from one player to the next, and so can't really be compared to anything.

I think the goal of comparing parses like this is to uncover optimums and shortcomings. And for that reason, we are interested in actual applied DPS, not just a scientific experiment in some over-controlled setting. Hitting a training dummy or being solo won't answer our questions, because those settings don't accurately reflect those in a group.

Good examples of this are War-Cry, Anthem of Prowess and other Attack Duration buffs and how they affect different kinds of DPS'ers. Remember, Fire is full of inductions and is not affected as much by Attack Duration buffs as Lightning is. Hence, parsing solo doesn't capture the benefit a Zap-keeper reaps from being grouped with a Captain or Minstrel.

Increased incoming critical chance is another example that makes group-buffs more beneficial for Zap-keepers than Fire-RKs, due to the extra Critical Multiplier in the ST trait-line. Seeing as Burgs are the flavour of the... well.. last two years in the raiding world, you don't want to ignore this effect.

Lastly, what about fire mitigation-debuffs, which are far more common than any other damage types?

Anyway, you see my point - You can't answer questions regarding our group DPS by being solo. Furthermore, our solo DPS is too time-consuming to measure because of the deviations and the increased sample that comes with it.

Parsing on a mob with 20k health will always produce results in favor of Lightning. Parses from Orthanc are pretty much the only viable ones because parses from training dummies are not possible, anything you can kill solo is far too short of a fight, anything with enough health to matter would require effort to the point where very few people would be willing to do it. It's far easier to just post an Orthanc parse, and tell us what buffs you had. You're still going to get a few parses with similiar or equal buffs. Get enough parses, it'll be clear if Fire and Lightning are close to the same dps, or if one is better than the other.

Even if it's possible to find a mob with high enough health and evenish mitigations for Lightning and Fire to parse on, i'd still like to see parses from Orthanc to see how we compare to other classes.




A 15 second fight. My Perfect Imagery didn't even have time to expire. And I forgot my clicky :/. 15 seconds is so short burst dps doesn't even have time to kick in.

1500 is nice. Suitably larger than 1000 enough to be worth switching for all DPS. Makes Malf a sad panda.

Originally Posted by Ruintheliel

You can't answer questions regarding our group DPS by being solo. Furthermore, our solo DPS is too time-consuming to measure because of the deviations and the increased sample that comes with it.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Most RK's that I've seen are too afraid their DPS won't size up. They hide behind the guise that "It's not a meaningful parse," or "I can't be bothered to run a Rift skirmish."

See what I mean?? In the time it took Ruintheliel to write that post, he could have simply run the skirmish. But he didn't. :-/

Yes, Ruintheliel, I understand very well that group DPS buffs help DPS. For both lightning and fire RK's. We both like our buffs. But since there are SO MANY different combinations of group make-ups, SO MANY different combinations of group buffs that RK's might get, and SO MANY different levels of how good other players are, it's impossible to compare our DPS with some/all/other/yet other buffs. How can you objectively compare RK DPS between 2 players when one player has a Minstrel buff and an incoming damage debuff on the target, and the other player has a captain buff with oathbreakers on the target? You can't compare the 2. They aren't the same category. Apples and Oranges.

If you run solo, you can guarantee that ALL of the conditions are under YOUR control. You don't have to depend on a specific group make-up, you don't have to depend on what other players have traited, and you don't have to depend on whether or not other players can/know how to put/keep their buffs up. You control the whole experiment. And you can do it anytime you want; you don't have to schedule something a week ahead of time, or hope you can find 12 buddies good enough to actually reach the target.

Sure, the solo parses are short, and can be inaccurate. But the deviation of DPS taking into consideration every possible scenario of group buffs is WAY bigger than the deviation of solo parses. Essentially, having group buffs is a worse indicator of "average DPS" than parsing solo because the deviation is so high.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

1500 is nice. Suitably larger than 1000 enough to be worth switching for all DPS. Makes Malf a sad panda.

That parse is completely irrelevant.. A Lightning parse with PI buff up all the time has to be much higher than a Fire parse

I also think that ToO parses are the only relevant ones. The only place were you have to max your DPS is ToO and therefore it´s better to look at parses specific for that place, rather than general ones

I dont have this skirmish.. Ill do some epic chain and try to unlock it. In a fight that short tho who knows what we'll get. I know on Draigoch paws my dps goes anywhere up to 5kdps (which is all of your cd lightning critting hard). The shorter the fight, the higher the dps - it lived less long. So because lightning can be so variable in a short fight, not sure about it.

You can really only tell in a long fight when it finally evens out. But in a long fight, theres support, buffs, etc.

Anyways regardless those are good numbers from your t2c runs and I wish I knew what your rotation and choices were so I could play around with them, because my gear is almost the same and leaves me only a bit of will less, but I dont get those numbers with my 1stage stone. I dont have the old 1200tact gems that some folk have though, thats a big diff over 2 at 520/540, but Im still looking to squeeze every last ounce I can.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Yes, Ruintheliel, I understand very well that group DPS buffs help DPS.

Except you missed the point again.

Some buffs, such as War-Cry, does a world of difference to a Lightning RK. More hits, more buffs from CA and SS. But Fire doesn't really gain that much - it's hampered by inductions.

Point is, even if you stood and attacked a target solo for 30 minutes, you're still not getting a realistic parse of the two lines, simply because you lack the group-buffs that affect the two trait lines differently, buffs you will get in a realistic setting.

I'll echo the others: ToO parses or it's no good. Foundry has too many interruptions to DPS and RoF has exceptional mitigations (Higher than any ToO T2 boss to be more precise).

Agreed that Orthanc parses are the most relevent; raiding and the moors are the only places where DPS means anything :/. Yes, you get a more "pure" parse when you control the settings and the buffs, but it's an irrelevent, stand-alone number that only exists in a vacuum. I don't parse often, but the last time I did was lightning in melee range on a training dummy, and I was around 1700 iirc. Now THAT is a meaningless number if ever there was one :P.

I'm not knocking your opinions or your methodology, Malf, I just think that raid parses are more practical. And if I was ever DPSing instead of tanking and healing, I might have some numbers of my own to post xD.

Futhermore, Rift last boss has better Fire mitigation than Lightning one.

well common sence would dictate that fire would be best in all of ToO except lightning wing.


Fire for group play 90% of the time

Lightning for Solo and moors play 90% of the time



Fire for moors when you want to greef wargs 1:30m dot is lol. I have had things run away with 7k health and die in the middle of the keep 1 min latter. Pricelesss.

and if you can manage to aoe with fire in a raid enviroment it is killer if you know what to do. if you can manage to gold tag in a raid enviroment with fire you will be shocked at how much renow you can get in 5-10 min.

less talking, more pictures of parses.

Blade Brother, 2 Burglars, LM-Bear, Minstrel vit. stance.
I took the screenshot too late so CA ran from 1950 to 1900, anyways that's just an excuse.
I had 2.3k parse on Kalbak too, but died 300k off so that was a bit sad (I will have a new result Thursday)

I agree with PA that raid parses are hard to do anything with because of varying and confounding group members and buffs, but I'll disagree that parsing on the Rift skirmish boss is any more meaningful. It's too short, so lightning is always going to win because of PI and fire will never have enough time to build properly. So really, the only kind of parses I can see of getting any kind of value from are parses versus raid bosses where one give some indication as to the makeup of the raid and what buffs one had.

In my opinion though the only real way to get any value from parses is for an individual to parse multiple times with varied set ups and a fairly static group makeup and attempt to come up with information for himself. Trying to come up with any kind of aggregate data from people posting screen shots on a forum is always going to devolve into a mess of people claiming that each other's setups, group comp, rotations, etc are responsible for data that differs from their preconceived notions.

I'd just make one recommendation for ToO parses: Don't parse the lightning boss. The steam buff (which directly increases outgoing damage) varies enough that these parses are going to be even more useless than your standard raid parses.

Here's a shortish parse from a quick Shadow t1 we knocked out today. I had blade brother, 2 burgs in the raid, no LM, no oath breakers. I died 20 seconds before we really finished it, but here's the parse up until that point:



Being only 90 seconds, not the best way to compare obviously, but still pretty nice. Loved that 19,590 EC.

Well fasin, I've finally got to do ToO after the transfer, and I can tell u I easily topped ur dps. I were in a pug were I couldn't get close to max my dps, also I pulled aggro at 2.1k dps which I got so easily. One burg, not even a cappu at my group, no rk buff .

Sorry I have no proofs as I couldn't remember it post at the moment I did it. But, if u want to max ur dps, u better trust me and get a fire stone

Will post screenies once the servers are back up for ST dps. Over 1m43s on a training dummy with 0 external buffs/debuffs I'm doing 1600dps roughly.

Using the training dummy for fire is obviously not an option.



Will post one of a ToO T2 ST dps too at some point. Still toying around with Cleansing fires rotation and build a lot, will post when I take some more screenies.

Would anyone be willing to post both their ToO and a solo parse next to each other (including where its from).

Here's my reasoning, I want to see just how bad I am at DPS. Now I'm not going to be getting upto the dizzying heights of 3000DPS (congrats btw), I think of myself as a healing RK, where I'd like to think I'm pretty good. When a do DPS I struggle to get much above 1000-1200 in Orthanc. So I want to play around on the dummies and just test out some rotations, having some dummy - ToO comparison would help me evaluate what I might be achieving in a real situation if I could pull the same thing off. Yes the dummies are not a useful measure of absolute DPS (particularly for fire, which I trait), but should let me get an idea of relative DPS.

Originally Posted by 00CloughRN

Would anyone be willing to post both their ToO and a solo parse next to each other (including where its from).

Here's my reasoning, I want to see just how bad I am at DPS. Now I'm not going to be getting upto the dizzying heights of 3000DPS (congrats btw), I think of myself as a healing RK, where I'd like to think I'm pretty good. When a do DPS I struggle to get much above 1000-1200 in Orthanc. So I want to play around on the dummies and just test out some rotations, having some dummy - ToO comparison would help me evaluate what I might be achieving in a real situation if I could pull the same thing off. Yes the dummies are not a useful measure of absolute DPS (particularly for fire, which I trait), but should let me get an idea of relative DPS.

I'll hook you up with a Dummy/Fire parse. It'll be somewhat low, considering DoT's periodically wipe, but it'll be close. If you reproduce the same environment, you should be able to make a good comparison, regardless of how skewed the parse is from a DoT-wiping perspective.

A ToO fire parse is gonna be hard to come by. I can't make any guarantees. Usually, even if I DO trait for DPS, I end up having to heal-assist anyway, which of course kills DPS.

How bout parsing on the 2 trolls you kill just outside Isenguard for the crashing the gate deed.

Iv heard of wardens soloing them although i havent tried it myself.

My gear is not good enough and i only have a lightning stone.


Get a tank and a healer if the warden cant do it solo and have the healer just heal. No buffs, Very long fight so even crits and devistates will be mitigated due to the .... id guess 45 minut long fight. Only veriable is fire can dot up both trolls and id call that cheating as all we really care about is single target boss fight style dps.

But even after that. It will still not be setteled as speed buffs and crit buffs help lightning way more than fire. And are probably a bigger boost than fire damage debuffs from lormasters etc.

In the end. They are both good and considering how debated this is. Seems to me to do what you like better as its not enough of a difference to mater. There is no content in this game that one or 2 members of a raid doing +- 300 dps means pass or fail.


Edit:

If anyone is on brandywine ill tank with my warden if we can get our gametime to sinc. And maby i can get my gf to heal with her rk. But my play time due to work is kind of irratic. And after thinking about it. We would only need a pars for about 10 minuts per spec. Now if there is a way to get only one troll were set..

Originally Posted by Ackibo

Iv heard of wardens soloing them although i havent tried it myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wFfz...ature=youtu.be

Originally Posted by Ackibo

How bout parsing on the 2 trolls you kill just outside Isenguard for the crashing the gate deed.

Iv heard of wardens soloing them although i havent tried it myself.

My gear is not good enough and i only have a lightning stone.


Get a tank and a healer if the warden cant do it solo and have the healer just heal. No buffs, Very long fight so even crits and devistates will be mitigated due to the .... id guess 45 minut long fight. Only veriable is fire can dot up both trolls and id call that cheating as all we really care about is single target boss fight style dps.

But even after that. It will still not be setteled as speed buffs and crit buffs help lightning way more than fire. And are probably a bigger boost than fire damage debuffs from lormasters etc.

In the end. They are both good and considering how debated this is. Seems to me to do what you like better as its not enough of a difference to mater. There is no content in this game that one or 2 members of a raid doing +- 300 dps means pass or fail.


Edit:

If anyone is on brandywine ill tank with my warden if we can get our gametime to sinc. And maby i can get my gf to heal with her rk. But my play time due to work is kind of irratic. And after thinking about it. We would only need a pars for about 10 minuts per spec. Now if there is a way to get only one troll were set..

I'll be home at 6pm ET. I'll parse with you. If your GF wants to parse too, I can switch to heals.

my rk nor my gf's rk dont quite have the gear for a pars people would accept. we have good gear but not the ToO full set ... were sitting at about 2k will. And neither of us have a fire stone with the right legacies. My warden is very well geared however. But ill need a healer to tank an rk dpsing the gambits id need to use to solo them will not come close to building the threat needed to hold back a epic geared rk trying to show off :0) As for tonight i dont have time i need to go to sleep soon which is why im lurking the forums rather than playing... sorry i have maby 20 minuts to be online.

Tomarrow might be good if you can trait and gear for an equal fire and lightning pars. As im sure you know you would need a proper lightning and fire stone and bag both the same gen and crystals etc to make it an even pars. On the bright side we would only need to fight them for say 10-15 minuts each spec to get a good pars. Other than getting another tank to pull one of the trolls away however i dont know a way to get rid of the second troll so your fire aoe does not mess up the fire pars. If we cant get rid of the second troll it wont be fair.

For me I dont use Fire on RK, just lighting.

As for DPS my average is 2K to 2.5K whitout blade brother. Some fights I reach 3K dps but those 3K are too much dependant on crits. my average of crits is 50-60% of all attacks but some fights Ive already had above 80% crit.

Tbh I think fire is great and on longer runs Fire DPS is way above Lighting but on some T2 fights in orthanc it requires lots of movement and Fire loses too much DPS moving while lighting can keep it up easily. And thats why I chose Lighting over Fire.

Dont have any screens to post tough, sorry bout that but normally I dont take screens, ill try to take some next times I go raid with RK so ppl can compare.

Originally Posted by Shreck_Eldar

For me I dont use Fire on RK, just lighting.

As for DPS my average is 2K to 2.5K whitout blade brother. Some fights I reach 3K dps but those 3K are too much dependant on crits. my average of crits is 50-60% of all attacks but some fights Ive already had above 80% crit.

Some more info about buffs/debuffs present would be helpful.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

I'll hook you up with a Dummy/Fire parse. It'll be somewhat low, considering DoT's periodically wipe, but it'll be close. If you reproduce the same environment, you should be able to make a good comparison, regardless of how skewed the parse is from a DoT-wiping perspective.

A ToO fire parse is gonna be hard to come by. I can't make any guarantees. Usually, even if I DO trait for DPS, I end up having to heal-assist anyway, which of course kills DPS.

Cr@p. I had like 10 parses done, and this stupid failure of a forum site timed out and I lost them. I hate this site. Here's 3 parses as a consolation prize.

1289
1090
1174

This was on the dummy in Galtrev. I wasn't able to get to the end of my opening rotation, so I could have gone higher. The 3 listed are all pretty close to the 10 I had before this website ate them. Lowest was 936.1, I think... I missed a FR. Highest was just a hair over 1300... must have been some lucky crits. No buffs, just Fall to Flame/Fall to Wrath on the dummy.

My only question is this: Fasin, how do you achieve 2.5k will!! i sit around 2.2k buffed, but i dont have the upgraded necklace and also i use the great river crafted bracelets since they give a nice amount to VIT as well as will and crit, they really seemed the best fit for me, i guess i could squeeze more will into bracelet slots but i don't like dipping below 6k unbuffed morale and the purple stangard ones look ok expect they lack ICPR which 200ish icpr off of my build now would kill me lol

Originally Posted by angrysmurf91

My only question is this: Fasin, how do you achieve 2.5k will!! i sit around 2.2k buffed, but i dont have the upgraded necklace and also i use the great river crafted bracelets since they give a nice amount to VIT as well as will and crit, they really seemed the best fit for me, i guess i could squeeze more will into bracelet slots but i don't like dipping below 6k unbuffed morale and the purple stangard ones look ok expect they lack ICPR which 200ish icpr off of my build now would kill me lol

There's lots of places to squeeze in some extra Will. Virtues, relics, legacies... of course, they do come at a sacrifice.