So I have been gone since U6 and just last week came back. I am not in any form "pro" or even in my opinion that good so keep that in mind as I bring this question up here. I have seen that mini's have become quite strong but is nowhere near as OP as wardens have become. Im sure everyone here knows how badly turbine has messed this up so I will just make three quick points and then pose the question to the wardens of RM.
First point. Freep group of 6 try to take SOP after failing to take LC. Creep group of 13 or so give chase to SOP and stop freeps from flipping it. Combat ensues. Most freeps die, one warden runs to GV leaving a champ and another warden to fight. Champ dies pretty quickly, warden fights on like a madman. So its Ezekiah vs 8 creeps and the fight went on forever with shield healing, pots, and possibly? store pots... not sure on the store pots but it doesnt really matter anyway. Anyway the point is with 8 creeps on this 1 warden it took FOREVER to kill him.
(akara style screenshot to prove statement)
Second point. Akara catches Adino solo between HH and LC. Knowing wardens are a lot stronger now I figure id jump in as well and 2v1. Just to make it clear this is a rank 8 warg who is very experienced and in my opinion a good pvp'r and not the worst rank 7 BA vs 1 warden with no NPC interference. I wait for the pounce and then its on. VT unleashed, hinder, fire, yadda yadda yadda, adino is fighting akara for a minute, then turns to me. Akara is at his back tearing away as im trying to kite adino. We manage to pick up one human npc on us and the kiting got closer to the spider den. Battle went on for 3 minutes with no deaths. I run out of power and head into the spider den to pop center to get power back and akara follows. Adino leaves. As a side note he came back with a champ and killed me, but thats not the point. The point is that 2 decently ranked and not awful creeps could not kill 1 warden. It made me sick and disgusted with lotro.
Third point. This is a quick one. Just pointing out that wardens on Elendilmir 1v1 with no gear on just to make it a fair fight.
Ok so WoT tl;dr here is the question. With the obvious unbalanced state of the warden from a creep perspective, do wardens see themselves as OP? If so, what can be changed or tweaked to make the warden a good class but not be indestructible?
With the obvious unbalanced state of the warden from a creep perspective, do wardens see themselves as OP? If so, what can be changed or tweaked to make the warden a good class but not be indestructible?
I'd say that compared to some other freep classes, they truly became one of the best pvp survival classes for now, but when special spider and warg abilities come into the equation, I'd say that at least finally there's a freep class that has the potential to step up to those warg and spider creep ablities that are just way to OP for most of the remaining freep classes to counter.
Also, if warden were op in pvp (for creeps), you could see them defeat those 8 creeps much quicker. Warden has the potential to survive, but it requires more firepower to successfully counterattack the enemy. In larger group play, when there's a warden and other classes on freep side, there's just no point to attack him first, and from that point, he's just another member of the freep crowd.
I can understand your frustration, Creepie.
I know I don't really play my warden in the moors anymore (went 0-5 yesterday in Recklessness for the few minutes I took him out for 1v1s**) but from what I have observed by watching Determination wardens in moors and even by seeing what I can do in PvEland, the class can be easily abused for sure. U6 Determination stance seems to have offered a dumbed-down option for warden pvp-ing. Just my opinion; what do I know.
^that was a lengthy sentence, oops
As for possible solutions, I don't think any messing with Determination for pvp purposes is something that will happen, so I guess it's just up to the player. Many people will find enjoyment out of being able to hot-up and tank a bunch of creeps at once. But, the best wardens have adapted to that new shiny Assailment, and can likely do well in Reck as well!
**I am still pvp-ing on my warden with a mostly-MoM mindset, so probably just operator error there
**I am still pvp-ing on my warden with a mostly-MoM mindset, so probably just operator error there
I don't see any errors with your warden, I seem to beat him just fine
I also play a warden. He's not level 75 but even so I enjoy rounding up a bunch of npcs and rofl-stomping them. With my HoT's and leaches going there really isn't any chance of me dying. There isn't any challenge to this and I know I'm op, but I assume that's that wardens go for. They get to be heroes of middle earth, defeating "evil" creeps with no fear of having to come face to face with death.
I was on Elendilmir earlier and had a warden on the bottom floor of lugz who had pulled the hallway and the entire bottom floor. Mind you I was a R1 reaver but he still managed to kill me with the entirety of lower lugz on him. I just cant believe that most wardens think this is ok?
I do agree with the OP in that Shield traited Warden's are completely stupid in the moors right now in terms of survivability. But seriously, who is going to die to a shield traited heal spammer? Just walk away from those fights, the people doing it are usually garbage anyway.
I would personally love to see shield traits (or maybe HoTs) disabled in PvMP, they serve no purpose other than to boost PvE and farm stars.
I personally run 5 Yellow, 2 Blue traits and run in Recklessness feeling like a god. When I 1v1 anymore I don't pot stuns and wear only 2 audacity so that my opponent will have a remote chance of winning. Anyone who tells you that Shield Traits are justified in PvP is kidding themselves. Quite frankly I find it hard to bring my Warden out to the Ridder Ettens mostly because of all the failcakes running around shield traited or pretending to be a hunter in Assailment.
8 of you couldn't kill 1 warden.. ok... that's a bit sad perhaps, especially since 10k morale is actually very low for a tank build if the guy is running determination stance, but there's a flip side to this coin. Did that warden, who you're all so mad about and calling OP actually manage to kill even one of you or did the deaths start occurring after the champ came into play?
Originally Posted by Swordosilver
There isn't any challenge to this and I know I'm op, but I assume that's that wardens go for. They get to be heroes of middle earth, defeating "evil" creeps with no fear of having to come face to face with death.
I cry horsecrap on this one. Determination wardens are actually severely crippled in a pvmp sense. They're set as a pure tanking class and the damage output is utterly horrible. No, you can't kill them because of the self heals and lifetaps, and on the flip side they can't kill you because their dps is terrible. 1v1 on a recklessness warden and you're actually dying? That's a bit more possible and a sign of bad creeping if you're actually willing to go 1 on 1 with a warden.
OP? No. Getting closer to how they used to be before RoI? Yes. Will pvmp ever be truly balanced? Yes.. the chosen one will come and bring balance to the forc... er... moors. :P You _can't_ balance a game that has pvp and pve existing across the same characters without rebuilding the entire game from the ground up.
the 8v1 warden did manage to kill 1 of the wargs before he died. He eventually died, but the fight lasted about 4 minutes. 4 minutes with 8 creeps is just sick. I dont care if that warden never killed 1 of them, it just should not happen period.
As far as bad creeping because someone would take on a warden solo... are you kidding me? The ones who dont have the stones to even attempt it are in my opinion bad creeps. Sure they might save a star by not doing it, but where is the fun in that?
I cry horsecrap on this one. Determination wardens are actually severely crippled in a pvmp sense. They're set as a pure tanking class and the damage output is utterly horrible. No, you can't kill them because of the self heals and lifetaps, and on the flip side they can't kill you because their dps is terrible. 1v1 on a recklessness warden and you're actually dying? That's a bit more possible and a sign of bad creeping if you're actually willing to go 1 on 1 with a warden.
Cry horse all you want. Most of the wardens on Ridder run in Determination. I jump them and they start spamming heals, once they get them all ticking Reckless stance is next and they start stacking bleeds. If they are particularly bad they get low on health they switch back to Determination.
And what is the point of pvp if you're only willing to fight something you have a sure chance of winning against? If thats your play style you'll fit right in with the burgs and swarms of new wargs.
the 8v1 warden did manage to kill 1 of the wargs before he died. He eventually died, but the fight lasted about 4 minutes. 4 minutes with 8 creeps is just sick. I dont care if that warden never killed 1 of them, it just should not happen period.
As far as bad creeping because someone would take on a warden solo... are you kidding me? The ones who dont have the stones to even attempt it are in my opinion bad creeps. Sure they might save a star by not doing it, but where is the fun in that?
If those 8 creeps played smart and stayed out of range this wouldn't be a problem. Most creeps don't know how to deal with a warden and won't care to learn how to deal with one. This thread reminded me of that time 7 creeps were complaining about failing to kill a mini all the way from gta to GV, when all it takes is a 2 combo of a well-played BA and reaver to kill a mini.
If a warden gets a kill in an 8v1 with a defiler there, then that would be a testimony to the quality of creeps he was fighting.
Any 3 combo with a defiler using improved flies should kill a shield traited warden.
Wardens have been OP since pre roi in the moors and always were, and you've always had to deal with shield traited wardens creepside with a group so this is nothing new.
Any 3 combo with a defiler using improved flies should kill a shield traited warden.
O well this helps, just let me pull out my pocket dps and pocket defiler. It should take 1 skilled creep to take down 1 skilled warden. All this freep OP #### continues to make me sick.
O well this helps, just let me pull out my pocket dps and pocket defiler. It should take 1 skilled creep to take down 1 skilled warden. All this freep OP #### continues to make me sick.
The mentality of the fight hasn't changed I remember in creep forums, people used to ask how to tackle a shield traited warden, most said call in a zerg and kite since they do "no damage".
A skilled creep can beat a spear traited warden, even the resident braggart(no not me teehee) in this thread on his warden with audacity 7 has been losing to wargs, but wargs are in a good place right now.
Guys strategy and tactics I don't pvp but I do play a warden. The lifetap skills are range limited and more attacking equals more healing. Morale drains are very short ranged and 8 people attacking in melee range is super healing for the warden. Try maintaining distance and using ranged attacks to wear him down instead of feeding him morale by trying to all pound of him at close range. Know the skills and their limitations and beating someone will be easier.
WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.
The mentality of the fight hasn't changed I remember in creep forums, people used to ask how to tackle a shield traited warden, most said call in a zerg and kite since they do "no damage".
A skilled creep can beat a spear traited warden, even the resident braggart(no not me teehee) in this thread on his warden with audacity 7 has been losing to wargs, but wargs are in a good place right now.
Horse is a very skilled reaver, does it matter? No, his class is underpowered. The reverse is true for wardens, it's near impossible to be skilled at a class that is so OP. It's like saying you're more skilled at being a 1-shotter than everyone else. It's not even worth trying to argue.
So with all the issues of freep classes being OP... and creep groups being unable to kill one measly freep... and even freeps of those classes bragging about their uberness surviving against multiple creeps, it seems to me that...
a) many freeps that do complain about zergs, should not, since they are pretty impossible to kill. Those that do die, should blame themselves for not being any good instead of blaming the zerg.
and
b) better start gathering those craids of superior numbers to start taking down single targets!
Guys strategy and tactics I don't pvp but I do play a warden. The lifetap skills are range limited and more attacking equals more healing. Morale drains are very short ranged and 8 people attacking in melee range is super healing for the warden. Try maintaining distance and using ranged attacks to wear him down instead of feeding him morale by trying to all pound of him at close range. Know the skills and their limitations and beating someone will be easier.
There is 1 class creepside with decent ranged DPS, plus Warden's have a very nice slow. Creepside slows are mostly awful.
Horse is a very skilled reaver, does it matter? No, his class is underpowered. The reverse is true for wardens, it's near impossible to be skilled at a class that is so OP. It's like saying you're more skilled at being a 1-shotter than everyone else. It's not even worth trying to argue.
You didn't even deny anything I've said.
I'd like you right now to play germs and aza spear traited on your warg or defiler and let me know how it goes.
Last edited by Priestetute; May 01 2012 at 12:12 PM.
The mentality of the fight hasn't changed I remember in creep forums, people used to ask how to tackle a shield traited warden, most said call in a zerg and kite since they do "no damage".
A skilled creep can beat a spear traited warden, even the resident braggart(no not me teehee) in this thread on his warden with audacity 7 has been losing to wargs, but wargs are in a good place right now.
dude priest man, i have known you and been friends with you since you started playing back when we got you into Citadel Guard so I know you arent stupid and I know you have had a warg for a long time although im not sure if you have played it recently. I dont disagree that the creeps are in a pretty good place. I feel like turbine has it pretty much right. Wardens went from being slightly underpowered to being grossly overpowered. There is no way in the world that me as a R7 BA and akara as a R8 warg could have taken down adino solo in open field. It just was not possible.
I also know you played your warden and kicked butt pre U6 so I know you can tell the difference between then and now man.
Try maintaining distance and using ranged attacks to wear him down instead of feeding him morale by trying to all pound of him at close range. Know the skills and their limitations and beating someone will be easier.
sorry to post twice so close together, but pre u6 I could beat adino 1v1 open field and had done so on several occasions. to go from that to not being able to 2v1 him is sad. I had never managed to beat you 1v1 priest, but it was always pretty close fights, and when you came across me the other day at lugz hill near grams it was a roflstomp, so please dont say I need to learn how to fight wardens. Im trying to get an honest response here from the wardens of RM. If there isnt any, then ill assume they are deluded and dont see how OP they are and my question will be answered anyway
Yeah i don't use my warden out in the moors anymore becuase of this, Just seeing others shield trait and spam Hots and leeches even annoyed me freepside as well on my reaver. I've always spear traited since RoI moors or in PvE land and have had a blast that way sure you die alot more in the moors but whats the fun if you dont. But obviously alot of these new wardens out only use it because they've heard WARDENS ARE GODS NOW which they are not ( if you use right strategy )
Bottom line is Spamming Leeches and HoTs in Shield line is very OP, But 95% of the wardens who run it dont have much skill anyways since they rely on that line so much.
- Wadric
Lieutenant Wadric - Warden
Chief Warrior Blitzkreigg - Black Arrow
ok so wadric, what do you think can be done to nerf (i guess thats the right word) wardens without having the wardens cry like little babies? Do the hots need to not stack, or not stack with leeches, or the amount of health from the hots be dropped a little or anything else you can think of?
Im not up to speed on the warden changes but did they add a seperate slow other than that one javelin skill? Either that jav slow got buffed or they added a second slow which should be removed and put back to pre U6
Shield-trait wardens are a bore in the 'moors, for both the creeps and as I've found out, from the wardens* who trait that way too. Specc'd that way, such wardens are not so much OP in the 'moors, as they are a curiosity to gawk at.
As I quit my minstrel after ROI in the 'moors, much respect to the wardens who work it out spear-trait and shun the spectacle meant for PvE.
*There are many wardens who haunt our 'moors that are spear-trait purists and hold those of their class who play otherwise in utter contempt. Although, when it's dead out and the action has fallen off and they've nothing better to do, a few will shield-trait and clean out keeps en masse - it's a sight to behold.
Shield traited Wardens are OP in the Moors, but there are ways to deal with them.
I can currently think of 4 effective ways of dealing with them
1. Ranged kiting. Shield gambit hots, even in assailment stance can only be activated in melee range. The AOE hots have a range of 6 meters and require 4+ creeps to be around them in order to be more effective than shield-gambit hots. Whiskey and I got silvers down to 1500 morale the other day, even after he popped NS etc.. We simply kept him at range and whoever he chased would simply kite him. Unfortunately he found an npc to hot himself on and healed up again, but if it were not for that npc then he would have died. So if you've got more than 2 ranged, then it is even easier.
2. Power drains/debuffs. Rabid bite and toxin themselves are not enough for this. The warleaders banner of terror as well as the defilers curse of the melancholic heart cut the wardens power amount in about half. Throw some defiler flies into the mix and the warden cant do anything without power.
3. If you've only got a lot of melee, then the warden should be stunned every time the immunity is up. Wargs should be dropping out of combat just to stun if it is needed. Everytime the warden isn't stunned, disarms and silences should be used on it. Pack hunters in flayer and shadow stance also both help against taking the warden down easier. In flayer, it removes its ability to b/p/e and in shadow it decreases its mitigation levels.
4. Zerg it
Now all these options require more than 1 person, but at least this way you won't be whacking at a warden in a group without achieving anything.
Also, if you've got a mix of ranged and melee then let the ranged deal with him apart from stuns, disarms, silences, dev strike. The less you stay in range, the less the warden can heal himself.
dude priest man, i have known you and been friends with you since you started playing back when we got you into Citadel Guard so I know you arent stupid and I know you have had a warg for a long time although im not sure if you have played it recently. I dont disagree that the creeps are in a pretty good place. I feel like turbine has it pretty much right. Wardens went from being slightly underpowered to being grossly overpowered. There is no way in the world that me as a R7 BA and akara as a R8 warg could have taken down adino solo in open field. It just was not possible.
I also know you played your warden and kicked butt pre U6 so I know you can tell the difference between then and now man.
Just in case ya forgot, this is pugs
hey pugs
anywayz, wardens can outheal multiple creep dps, so now for creeps atleast you have to alter your strategy, and bring the right group makeup and keep your distance if you are planning to take one down.
I'm not saying you necessarily don't know how to fight a warden, but if 1 person in your group doesn't, it will take forever to kill it. And none of you should be near or on the verge of dying. "Determination wardens" barely do any damage.
Majority of the complaints about OPness are about one traitline and one stance that isn't an embodiment of the whole class. It'd be like saying "omg champs are op" because of how survivable the ones that trait glory are. I do agree though, the class as a whole in the right hands is quite OP.
Try fighting an average spear or fist traited warden one of these days.
edit: -incoming healing in the moors across the board for all classes might set things back in check though.
Last edited by Priestetute; May 01 2012 at 03:02 PM.
Majority of the complaints about OPness are about one traitline and one stance that isn't an embodiment of the whole class. It'd be like saying "omg champs are op" because of how survivable the ones that trait glory are. I do agree though, the class as a whole in the right hands is quite OP.
Try fighting an average spear or fist traited warden one of these days.
edit: -incoming healing in the moors across the board for all classes might set things back in check though.
Thats the problem, most people don't trait to make themselves under-powered. They use the trait line that maximizes their ability. I don't understand why turbine chooses 1 freep or 1 creep class and does a total revamp of the class. When they do that it totally changes everything in the moors.
When a creep class becomes strong ex: warg everyone flocks to that class. Now we have a ton of wargs zerging the #### out of everything they see.
When a freep class becomes strong you get players who are otherwise skilled at their class become god-mode players capable of taking on mutiple creeps at the same times. What i want is balance across the board. This jack-of-all trade classes that can heal, tank, dps is stupid.
Also -incoming healing won't fix much. My reaver can literally get blown up in 1 or 2 seconds. What you need is scrapping the mini's healing in WS like it used to be. I don't have a fix for wardens since i don't know much about them. Either A) give them the ability to do nothing but heal themselves and live with little to no damage or vice versa. Also imo the ability to swap between shouldn't be as easy as a toggle stance.
Last edited by big_boi198; May 01 2012 at 07:45 PM.
anywayz, wardens can outheal multiple creep dps, so now for creeps atleast you have to alter your strategy, and bring the right group makeup and keep your distance if you are planning to take one down.
I'm not saying you necessarily don't know how to fight a warden, but if 1 person in your group doesn't, it will take forever to kill it. And none of you should be near or on the verge of dying. "Determination wardens" barely do any damage.
Majority of the complaints about OPness are about one traitline and one stance that isn't an embodiment of the whole class. It'd be like saying "omg champs are op" because of how survivable the ones that trait glory are. I do agree though, the class as a whole in the right hands is quite OP.
Try fighting an average spear or fist traited warden one of these days.
edit: -incoming healing in the moors across the board for all classes might set things back in check though.
Take a look at Silvers sig. Note the four stars. Now before anyone jumps at my throat for pointing out how many stars he has, I'm not calling him a star hugger by any means. Silvers is one of the best wardens (if not THEE best) I know of out in the moors. Most of the time I see him, he's solo. He's a PvPer not afraid to charge into the fray.
What I *believe* the four stars show is how OP a warden is when played correctly. Despite multiple creeps mobbing Silvers, he is fully capable of achieving a four star rating.
What I *believe* the four stars show is how OP a warden is when played correctly. Despite multiple creeps mobbing Silvers, he is fully capable of achieving a four star rating.
*Not trolling* I respect your 0 star rating. Wargs are the first to run and can usually turn the tide of a small fight with just a single pounce which they obtained through their hips. Instead the hips and keep on trucking while the rest of us die. I'm just ranting now so i will stop
Freeps usually avoid enemy NPCs like the plague, but wardens actually like them because they use them to heal. So let's say you had a warden who loved to PvE and hated to die, you basically just served him exactly what he wanted on a platter by giving these abilities.
And yeah we've realized we need to kite and range wardens but when the vanguard of a force consists of 5 wardens backed by 5 minstrels, well... FOL (its like FML but applies to all of us).
The class was totally broken when ROI came out with changes to medium armour mitigations, removal of passives and finesse which together helped make the Warden "tank" class quite squishy and near useless overall (among other new bugs and problems), it's just now back to being fun again since then, almost 8 months later.
Cletus is right, if the class itself was too strong, we'd see tons of new Wardens all over the moors. It's just not happening. Warden is still the least played class. Last time I checked it was at or below 2% of toons in the moors, compared to wargs which I believe are at about 20% of the total (across all servers to get a large enough sample).
Shield traited Wardens are at or near the lowest dps output of any other class/config. I doubt many shield traited Wardens can reliably kill a strongly played War Leader or Defiler right now without help. It would be a long time waster of a fight for nothing. And even on this server there are Weavers and Defilers that are harder than any Warden to take down when in retreat mode even with a strong group pursuing.
All I can say is that if you think high survivability comes automatically with every Warden who desires it, you just aren't paying attention - it's a difficult class to master and most people I know who try it don't even find it fun to play - only the weird ones do
Heh.. you can do that with a guard too.. and a cappy... and a champ... but I don't see a lot of screaming about how op they are... oh right.. I get it now.. any class that can't be dropped in a few seconds by any creep = op... I was wondering how that worked
Heh.. you can do that with a guard too.. and a cappy... and a champ... but I don't see a lot of screaming about how op they are... oh right.. I get it now.. any class that can't be dropped in a few seconds by any creep = op... I was wondering how that worked
P.S. Only 5? Seriously?
I was curious, since this is a riddermark PVP thread and all, do you freep on your Warden? Or PvP at all?
Heh.. you can do that with a guard too.. and a cappy... and a champ... but I don't see a lot of screaming about how op they are... oh right.. I get it now.. any class that can't be dropped in a few seconds by any creep = op... I was wondering how that worked
Wardens can be OP...but as silvers said all you need is a few flies, stuns, kiting to roflstomp a warden if he/she is solo healing against u.
And yeah, cant remember who said it..but its also the player that makes the class OP, most wardens i see are good players, cept for wadric of course but...
And coz i consider myself a half decent warden ill run around yellow traited in the moors for regular pvping/1v1ing but shield traiting is also very fun - lol-ing at how you, the pesky warden fly with limited damage try and attack the creeps. just buzzing around and annoying them, i find it fun anyway.
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