Discussion: no new level cap, more raid content plz

+1 for raising the cap & adding new content to support it.

-1 for just adding more raid content or more PvP.

Envoyé par Khafar

Agreed. I've done both - just not very much. They certainly don't define the MMO genre, in my opinion (although they do for some players). Just as perfectly viable MMOs can be made without crafting or housing, others could be made without traditional PvP or raids. An MMO needs to provide a variety of ways for players to interact, but it's just silly to equate MMO with "group battles". Real life is a massively "multiplayer" experience, and I can literally go years without engaging in anything like a "group battle"... yet still have an impressive amount of fun .

Khafar

I don't think anyone would argue that Lotro has become less group orientated over the years, even the questing. Originally when the game started, grouping to do quest content was everywhere, now not so much. As someone pointed out, people don't interact to craft anymore, they just make alts to farm mats for their other alts. People don't ride to instances/raids in mass groups any more, they get ported there. PvP has been forgotten, now raiding is looking like it's going the same way. It's becoming a glorified chat room, a 'stand around in Galtrev' seeing who else is on 'MMO', a 'ooh look there's someone else doing a quest too' MMO. As an example, Rift has kinship quests each week, which earn XP for the kin, which then allows the kin to choose different perks which can be used by their toons. It encourages a sense of community, and working towards something. Lotro seems to be doing the exact opposite. It's becoming a single player game, that's played online, rather than an MMO.
To follow your logic - I can literally go years in real life without engaging in solo fights with brigands, or singing to trees, or sparring with my neighbours, or delivering pies, or killing boars on my way to work, or riding horses, or buying a weapon, or doing 99% of the things MMOs comprise, yet still have an impressive amount of fun. I don't see your point. As you pointed out an MMO provides a number of different ways to interact, except Lotro seems to be trying to remove these, not cater to them. Hence it is becoming less of an MMO. Unless you'd still call it an MMO if people could just log in and throw snowballs at each other, do forced emotes, and use chat, because that fits your description of what you consider to be an MMO.
This is supposed to be a LoTR based MMO, not the sims, and a large part of LoTR involved group battles, certainly a lot more than running around picking flowers or whatever some people here want to see instead.

Envoyé par monteeburns

I don't think anyone would argue that Lotro has become less group orientated over the years, even the questing. Originally when the game started, grouping to do quest content was everywhere, now not so much.

When the game started out, everyone was pretty close in level (the "open beta", or--as I prefer to call it--"soft launch", had a level cap of 15). As that initial cohort progressed, there were lots of people close enough in level to group easily--and people did so. Since the cap was 50, it was harder to spread out, in terms of level, which also increased the "density" of people near the same level.

Anyone who didn't "keep up" with the bulk of that initial cohort found it harder and harder to find people to group with at their level.

Now--following each expansion--the only really large cohorts with which to group are at level cap at any given time, so grouping is dominated by level-capped groups, and lower levels are spread out in both space and level.

So it's really not surprising that below cap content is largely solo in practice, or--at most--small group. Sure people can still find larger groups for some content, but that's going to be a very minor activity and--probably--largely confined to kin groups. The IF *may* have been put in as an attempt to get around this problem for non-capped characters, but it is far from clear that it has been a success if that is the case, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it is an abysmal failure.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Envoyé par whheydt

When the game started out, everyone was pretty close in level (the "open beta", or--as I prefer to call it--"soft launch", had a level cap of 15). As that initial cohort progressed, there were lots of people close enough in level to group easily

Which was exactly the same situation that occured when F2P went live. Lots of low level players, and to quote Sapience from not too long ago "there are thousands of new players joining the game every single day". Yet they've still gone more and more for a solo experience.

Envoyé par whheydt

Now--following each expansion--the only really large cohorts with which to group are at level cap at any given time, so grouping is dominated by level-capped groups

So, all the more reason not to cut back on raids for them then, as group content has been pretty much removed for lower levels as you pointed out, why remove it from them also?

Envoyé par monteeburns

Which was exactly the same situation that occured when F2P went live. Lots of low level players, and to quote Sapience from not too long ago "there are thousands of new players joining the game every single day". Yet they've still gone more and more for a solo experience.

A lot of the "solofication" was done prior to f2p launch, so by the time all those f2p players arrived, it was a done deal.

So, all the more reason not to cut back on raids for them then, as group content has been pretty much removed for lower levels as you pointed out, why remove it from them also?

In what way have raids been cut back? All the old raids are still present. Now if you mean that the rate at which new raids are being written has fallen, then you have to take into consideration that Turbine has data on utilization of various contnet and may well have decided that the cost vs. usage value of raids isn't high enough to make very many new ones (and it's not as if there ever were very many...Rift, Helegrod, and ... What else below level 60?).

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

And no attempt was ever made to capitalize on the new players and make the game more community based....

I'm not sure where the lvl60 comes into it regarding raids. I just pointed out that for those who don't want to see any new raids that there is less and less community based content. What are the raid kins going to do? Move away from the game, same as the PvP kins? Where is the community aspect of the game going to be in the future. Although I'm not a big raider, I've been in a few kins over the years, and often discussing raid tactics and the shared achievement of completing raids was what bound the members together, even for those of us that didn't want to raid, it was great to see the kin getting excited about completing them. Take that away, It's becomes much more just a loose bunch of people, who get an extra chat channel.
The Rift was a huge milestone for Lotro for many people, they simply haven't come close since. If raiding isn't as popular as it once was in Lotro, I think the quality of the raids has as much to do with it as the numbers who simply don't wish to raid.

Envoyé par Micaa

this game could be huge if certain things were done, like ad-dons, flying mounts, more content (raid content) per expac, yes we've all heard "that goes against lore" blah blah...

I stopped reading there. =\ And personally, I think a level cap is needed. I've gotten another toon up to 75 now and I'd rather level than do more raids.

EDIT: And before someone says that a majority of the game would rather raid than do new quests and level, I can almost guarantee that you are wrong.

Envoyé par monteeburns

I'm not sure where the lvl60 comes into it regarding raids.

Level 60 comes from the fact that when MoM was launched, the level cap was raised to 60. Prior to that it was 50 and all of the "less than level 60" raids represent the conditions under SoA and Turbine's experience with the first 18 months of LoTRO being live...enough time to get data and a benchmark to use to measure expansions against.

As I said, I can only think of two raids that existed at that time, which pretty much puts paid, I think, to the idea that fewer raids are being made. They appear to be coming into the game at around the same rate as they did in SoA.

I just pointed out that for those who don't want to see any new raids that there is less and less community based content. What are the raid kins going to do? Move away from the game, same as the PvP kins? Where is the community aspect of the game going to be in the future.

But *is* there a measureable reduction in raids? And...do "raiding kins" really contribute to "the community", or do they operate in their own little walled gardens and for their own community?

This is not to say that raids should be removed or that no new raids should be added, but you really have to be clear about adding particular types of content in some proportionality to the number of players that will use it...and allow for relative cost of development as well (raids are reputed to be time intensive--read, expensive--to develop).

Although I'm not a big raider, I've been in a few kins over the years, and often discussing raid tactics and the shared achievement of completing raids was what bound the members together, even for those of us that didn't want to raid, it was great to see the kin getting excited about completing them. Take that away, It's becomes much more just a loose bunch of people, who get an extra chat channel.

It's fine that raiding binds groups together, but really...does what they do feed back into the community? Do they actively bring in people that might want to try a raid but aren't equipped or practiced to the same level that a raiding kin is? Or do they remain insular and isolated...only raiding with kin members or with members of *other* raiding kins, forming an isolated sub-community of their own?

The Rift was a huge milestone for Lotro for many people, they simply haven't come close since. If raiding isn't as popular as it once was in Lotro, I think the quality of the raids has as much to do with it as the numbers who simply don't wish to raid.

Which is cart and which is horse? *Did* all that many people spend time in the RIft when that was at level cap? Do subsequent development patterns reflect Turbine's data on the use of the Rift (and Helegrod)? Has raid development been underserved because not as many people as you appear to think raided, or are--as you claim--not as many people raiding because Turbine hasn't put the resources into new raids? How do you propose to distinguish between the alternative scenarios? And...to be complete, do you have any other alternatives to suggest?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

it really sucks that the majority of people that post on the forums from what ive seen are people either
A. shunned from other mmos (which is why there so against dmg/threat meters) or
B. only started playing this game because of the brand name

it really holds the game back when these people start putting in input because they are the majority and when people do come over from other games see the potential in this one vrs rift or whatever , all of there ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that have little exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont understand what the more experienced people are saying

bottom line here is if they implement something into the game that you dont like to draw in more people to keep the game going, and increase there budget to do more of what everyone wants ..its not like you have to download it , if its a addon, or raid the content if its more raids , but for the people burnt out on games like wow, rift star wars whatever ..they dont get shunned away because the content just isnt there

its in peoples best interest to have lotro gain more people playing because it will keep the game going, and the more money the game company makes the more they invest to make the game better ...which also draws more people in.

Envoyé par Micaa

all of there ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that have little exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont understand what the more experienced people are saying

Please. I've been playing MMOs for 13 years now, including AC (twice), AC2, SWG, EVE, AO, GW, WoW, FFXI (twice), Runescape, DDO, LOTRO, and TOR.

The most I've played has been LOTRO (5+ years), because I like it the way it is. I LIKE that it's story-based, that it doesn't focus on raids and PvP, that it's very casual/solo friendly, that it hasn't been taken over by "add-ons" and assorted automation tools. I don't want "WoW in Middle-earth" or "EVE in Middle-earth" or "SWG in Middle-earth". If I did, I wouldn't have left WoW and EVE and SWG after 6-8 months apiece and stayed here for many years.

And yes... I do like the setting here, better than any other. I first read The Lord of the Rings when I was 11 years old, and have read it 3 more times in the decades since.

Khafar

Envoyé par Micaa

it really sucks that the majority of people that post on the forums from what ive seen are people either
A. shunned from other mmos (which is why there so against dmg/threat meters) or
B. only started playing this game because of the brand name

it really holds the game back when these people start putting in input because they are the majority and when people do come over from other games see the potential in this one vrs rift or whatever , all of there ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that have little exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont understand what the more experienced people are saying

bottom line here is if they implement something into the game that you dont like to draw in more people to keep the game going, and increase there budget to do more of what everyone wants ..its not like you have to download it , if its a addon, or raid the content if its more raids , but for the people burnt out on games like wow, rift star wars whatever ..they dont get shunned away because the content just isnt there

its in peoples best interest to have lotro gain more people playing because it will keep the game going, and the more money the game company makes the more they invest to make the game better ...which also draws more people in.

Allow me:

it really bites that some of people that post on the forums from what we've seen are people either
A. shunned from other mmos (which is why they wish to bring their dmg/threat meters here) or
B. only started playing this game because of the the last game they left had great meters and little else.

it really out of place when these people start putting in input because they come over from other games and can't appreciate the difference between this game and rift or whatever game they left Their ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that often have just as much, if not more exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont want to see this game become just another boring MMO.

Bottom line here is if they implement something into the game that you dont like to draw in more people to keep the game going, many of the players who have been here five years will seek other pastures, and decrease the budget to do more of what the long term player wants. If its a addon, or raid the content if its more raids , but for the people burnt out on games like wow, rift star wars whatever .. thius will be yet another game they leave behind.

Its in peoples best interest to have lotro gain more people playing because it will keep the game going, and the more money the game company makes the more they invest to make the game better ...which also draws more people in. That is why the other games should be more like this game. Afterall, many of these other players left those games to come here for a different experience.

Envoyé par Micaa

it really sucks that the majority of people that post on the forums from what ive seen are people either
A. shunned from other mmos (which is why there so against dmg/threat meters) or
B. only started playing this game because of the brand name

it really holds the game back when these people start putting in input because they are the majority and when people do come over from other games see the potential in this one vrs rift or whatever , all of there ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that have little exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont understand what the more experienced people are saying

bottom line here is if they implement something into the game that you dont like to draw in more people to keep the game going, and increase there budget to do more of what everyone wants ..its not like you have to download it , if its a addon, or raid the content if its more raids , but for the people burnt out on games like wow, rift star wars whatever ..they dont get shunned away because the content just isnt there

its in peoples best interest to have lotro gain more people playing because it will keep the game going, and the more money the game company makes the more they invest to make the game better ...which also draws more people in.

From what I have been seeing, the people who are in opposition to your suggestions are doing so because they don't want to see an additional dumbing down of this game.

As for my gaming credentials, I played Turbine's first game Asheron's Call before I started playing this game during Closed Beta. Just so you know, I was not shunned out of playing AC. I stopped playing AC only because I could not afford to continue paying for my two subscriptions. If I could, I would still be playing AC as well as this game because as far as I am concerned, Turbine makes better MMORPG's than any other MMO company, that includes Blizzard.

Oh, and there are two reasons why I decided to play LotRO. One, it was being made by Turbine and two, I have been reading the Lord of the Rings since 1975 and have read it at least once a year since then. This game is easy-mode compared to Asheron's Call and I don't want to see it made even more easy-mode with WoW meters.

Also, if you are wondering if I dislike Raiding and PvMP in this game, no. I have no problem with raiding with the members of my Kin and have done so many times. I am also the only member of our Kin who is Rank 9. This is a big difference from my AC days when I very rarely participated in red-dot or pink-dot PKing.

Envoyé par Micaa

all of there ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that have little exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont understand what the more experienced people are saying

I've been MMOing since 1997. I've played a ton of different MMOs. I've raided, I've PvP'd.

I play LOTRO because it's not a raid-heavy or PvP-heavy game, & I don't want to see it turned into one.

Envoyé par Micaa

it really sucks that the majority of people that post on the forums from what ive seen are people either
A. shunned from other mmos (which is why there so against dmg/threat meters) or

If you read the comments from those that played games with such meters, it's more that they have decided to shun the games than the players of the other games shunned them. Again, you have your causation reversed.

B. only started playing this game because of the brand name

Relatively few people are here because of the brand--which is Turbine--but a lot of people are here because of the underlying source material--which is LoTR. Many--both old LoTR fans and old Turbine fans--are here for the story and the old Turbine fans know that Turbine is good at story telling. The ones that are only LoTR fans have *stayed* because they have found that Turbine is good at story telling.

its in peoples best interest to have lotro gain more people playing because it will keep the game going, and the more money the game company makes the more they invest to make the game better ...which also draws more people in.

That's true, but changing the game to something that isn't what attracted people in the first place, and especially changing it so it looks like every other MMO, or what the folks on rec.arts.sf.written refer to as "extruded fantasy product", *isn't* a likely path to growth. It is, after all, far easier for a business to retain existing customers than to gain new ones. Gaining enough new players by changing the nature of the game at the expense of losing existing players is a very poor tradeoff, and likely to achieve a negative growth rate.

As for how much effect these debates have on Turbine... Probably very little. Very few people post on the Forums, and even fewer post very much. If Turbine desires to find out what players actually want, they have much better ways to do so than watching Forum debates. A lot of the opposition statements in this thread have been made every time this topic comes up.

As I said in initial post in this thread, there is opposition. Can't say I didn't warn everybody.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Envoyé par Micaa

bottom line here is if they implement something into the game that you dont like to draw in more people to keep the game going, and increase there budget to do more of what everyone wants ..its not like you have to download it , if its a addon, or raid the content if its more raids , but for the people burnt out on games like wow, rift star wars whatever ..they dont get shunned away because the content just isnt there

This statement is naive and incorrect. What happens is the following:

1) Yula wants to do raid content without the addon. The raid leader boots or does not accept Yula in the group. Yula does not have the tools (addons) to maximize my character's performance. Tantalus will be replaced by a Hunter that uses the addons.

I unable to join any of the add on groups which cuts down on my opportunities to experience raid content.

2) Addons make characters more effective. The Addon users complain to the designers. The content is not challenging. It is a face roll. Turbine makes the content harder. It is not completable by Yula and his no Addon buddies.

I find myself in the situation where doing group content without the addons works as well as doing group without wearing any armor. It is an option. It is not viable. People like me stop paying and playing. Go find something else to do.

Essentially, Turbine spends dollars to drive existing customers away. Hoping that enough addon lovers join Lotro to replace all the Yulas. In addition even more new customers have to arrive to justify the expense. One other issue is the hope that the customer base will develop powerful enough addons - quick enough to make the investment in the API development pay off.

Final problem, all existing customers are playing with out addons currently. There is little to no value to provide an enhanced API for us. Turbine is already getting our dollars. Turbine has to come up with some calculation how many additional dollars that could be extracted from Micaa and buddies if the feature is created, deployed, the addons written and they really work.

In summary, I would point to F2P and the Lotro store. I have a number of friends that happily played Lotro before the launch of F2P. F2P and the Lotro store changed the game play in ways that is unacceptable to them. They have moved on to other games. At least in this case, it appears that the gains in revenue from the customers that stayed. Plus all revenue from the new customers greatly exceed the revenue loss from all the disgusted customers that left.

To those who do not want a level cap.. just do not level your character. As for myself and probably most others.. we shall continue to level and have fun at it. I look forward to level 85 and beyond! :-)

PS Choice is great.. choose to level or not but please do not suggest to take that choice away from those of us who do want to level up. Thanks.

Envoyé par Micaa

i really think that raising the level cap to 85 with the next expac due in the fall?
is a huge mistake considering the very little raid content released with the expansion i think with the cap at 75 the game should be steering in a way of instead of your toons leveling u upgrade other areas of the players and the game, mounted combat seems cool and a good idea, but after playing rift, wow, eq1, swg ect ect i can say that this game out of the games i have played has released the least amount of raids per level cap , and to top it off the higher the level cap the less likely someone will want to level another toon ..its what kills these types of games you get the level cap to high people dont level new toons they get bored of there old ones they find a new game, new players see how many levels they have to get to cap they take itno account what the game has to offer and they scoot away, its bad for business, plain and simple. and with new games being released you lose player base anyways , so you really have to do something to keep players , playing ...the brand name only goes so far ...this game could be huge if certain things were done, like ad-dons, flying mounts, more content (raid content) per expac, yes we've all heard "that goes against lore" blah blah...so doesn't having this many heroes in the middle earth setting , so doesn't the LM, RK, and mini classes, who cares..all that mattters is that the game doesnt get stale, it remains fun , and you continue getting subscribers, this game has so much potential, would like to see it used

I really would not want to see add-ons. I hated that from WoW, I was always asked why I didn't have such and such add-on. I do not want that here.

And thankfully, flying mounts will not happen here, thank Sauron.

And as for as "That goes against the lore", I'm here because I love Lord of the Rings, and I bet I'm not alone.

Envoyé par Khafar

Please. I've been playing MMOs for 13 years now, including AC (twice), AC2, SWG, EVE, AO, GW, WoW, FFXI (twice), Runescape, DDO, LOTRO, and TOR.

The most I've played has been LOTRO (5+ years), because I like it the way it is. I LIKE that it's story-based, that it doesn't focus on raids and PvP, that it's very casual/solo friendly, that it hasn't been taken over by "add-ons" and assorted automation tools. I don't want "WoW in Middle-earth" or "EVE in Middle-earth" or "SWG in Middle-earth". If I did, I wouldn't have left WoW and EVE and SWG after 6-8 months apiece and stayed here for many years.

And yes... I do like the setting here, better than any other. I first read The Lord of the Rings when I was 11 years old, and have read it 3 more times in the decades since.

Khafar

I lost count of the number of times I have quoted Khafar because he said exactly what I feel.

I already did the hardcore playing and grinding and I love the laid back carebear retirement style play here.

Envoyé par Micaa

it really sucks that the majority of people that post on the forums from what ive seen are people either
A. shunned from other mmos (which is why there so against dmg/threat meters) or
B. only started playing this game because of the brand name

it really holds the game back when these people start putting in input because they are the majority and when people do come over from other games see the potential in this one vrs rift or whatever , all of there ideas to better this game to bring more people over from other games gets squashed because of people that have little exp outside of lotro in mmos, really dont understand what the more experienced people are saying

bottom line here is if they implement something into the game that you dont like to draw in more people to keep the game going, and increase there budget to do more of what everyone wants ..its not like you have to download it , if its a addon, or raid the content if its more raids , but for the people burnt out on games like wow, rift star wars whatever ..they dont get shunned away because the content just isnt there

its in peoples best interest to have lotro gain more people playing because it will keep the game going, and the more money the game company makes the more they invest to make the game better ...which also draws more people in.

Recovering from the breathtaking arrogance, I feel obliged to point out that there is no inherent benefit in simply turning this game into a clone of all the others out there. Your perception of "better" is relative, not absolute, and has no more or less validity than other perception that the same changes would make things "worse".

It seems a strange argument that the way to attract those "burnt out" on WoW, Rift, etc, is to make this game more like the others. LotRO has a defined story arc which I believe means that people interact with it in a different way to others games where an expansion is simply "more of the same". Yes, a LotRo expansion is likely to consist of "more of the same" in terms of mechanism, but the major attraction lies in the advancement of the story along the paths that we anticipate.

Many (perhaps most) people play LotRO because it is different and does not suffer the raid/PvP obsessions of other games. It occupies an expanding niche in the MMO spectrum, and with the rise of the casual/solo player, I suspect that over time it will be the raid/PvP players that become the minority segment of the MMO community. The MMO world is changing, and the dinosaurs may well be doomed.

Envoyé par Okokdir

Personally I would be happier with more level and less raids. I hate having to do raids in order to get the best items for my character. Yuck! Let me earn my gear by playing the game in a fun way instead of a stressful time sensitive group mini game that causes people to be short, bossy and angry with each other.

/not signed

I didnt read trough all further posts yet, but this answer is that good that I have to quote it.

Not everyone is organized in huge Raid-groups or big kinships. In fact this is stressfull searching for fellows to do this and that just for gear and other fancy things. I rather like to live that game and write my own story, thats why I'm running for my professions and do the other 2nd live things.

I consider raids as a "mini game" as well .. a scripted peace of entertainment with strategic solutions. I felt it that way already when the rift came out. Its just a mini Game.

more raids ?
/not signed
go and do the rift again if you need a script planning your evening !

Ferru
xcuse my english

Envoyé par Micaa

...words...

I stopped reading the responses after the first page so if what I am about to say has already been said then my apologies.

OP - there is one aspect in any MMO game based on levels etc which people like yourself seem not to have twigged - and that is a new player starting now must be able, with a reasonable amount of time, effort and skill, to reach and take part in end-game content that can be enjoyed by more established players.

Why? because a game such as an MMO has to keep adding to it's player base in order to make money. Every time the level cap is increased the bar to getting to end-game content is reset to 0. I can now roll a new char, level it to 75 ignoring Rift, Helegrod, Vile Maw, DN, Dol Guldur & OD with just the focus on Draigoch & ToO. With each level cap increase, the bar to accessing the base level of end-game content is reset and enables the more casual-type of player to at least get to the point where they can decide for themselves if they want to take part or not.

So, consider this situation. I am a new player and have just got my first lvl 75 char. I know the class quite well, have grouped & taken part in instance runs etc as I levelled and it is reasonably well geared and traited etc and I am looking forward to my first raid. However In order to take part in the Draigoch & ToO raids I realise I first have had to have completed DN, DG and OD. As a new lotro player that is an almost impossible barrier mainly because I would be highly reliant on finding a kin or raiding group that was happy to run through that content. We had those artificial gates implemented as radiance and the response was so positive that it was removed. In fact I would like to show me any established game that has a healthy mix of new and old players that has those types of end-game restriction. I don't know of any.

Now, I would welcome the addition of more end-game content where the base entrance requirements were the same for other raids and not through any other means such as alternative advancement etc or having a tiered hierarchy. Note that I am not saying that Hard Modes / Challenge Modes etc should not be dispensed with - far from it - the ability to achieve better rewards & outcomes based on individual & group skills & abilities is fundamental to MMOs, but putting in artificial barriers for entry to the base level is not.

TL; DR - Level caps are good as they allow new players to access the base level of end-game content.

Cheers.

Bango.