This thread is less about the bug, and more about the STUPID policy that prevents GMs from killing a braindead Draigoch for the PAYING customers.
This game is dirt cheap by MMO standards, and part of what that means is that they have limited customer support. It's always been their official policy that GMs are for CoC issues (something the Knowedge Base has stated for 5 years now), but with smaller Average Revenues Per User now, that almost certainly translates into less help above and beyond the CoC issues.
My gripe with them on that score isn't that we get less for paying less, but that they don't offer a higher service option for the people willing to pay for it (e.g. "VIP Plus" for $15 or $18 per month, no discounts). I wouldn't pay for that, but some people certainly would.
It's criminal that they SELL the raid to F2P players, WITHOUT disclosing its awful state. Shameful.
Well, by that standard most of the games I've bought in the past 20 years have been "shameful", and perhaps that's true. I don't really expect for game companies to advertise their bugs when they're trying to sell stuff. What I do expect is that they'll at least put them into a Known Issues list, and I can't remember this ever showing up in any of those either. Nor have I seen them post any updates on the investigation of this issue for months. Of course, it doesn't seem to bother Turbine that this website still says "Beta" on it 18 months after it launched. None of that sort of thing is going to build loyalty.
I wonder how many people actually file a bug report when they experience this issue?
It's pretty obvious Turbine is having trouble isolating the problem, in the meantime I would just suggest encouraging EVERYONE to /bug it whenever it happens, it'll probably do a lot more good than another thread about the issue, when we already know about it.
It is a shame to see such an important instance suffer these issues but if you really want to put the pressure on them.. a thorough report of how you ran the instance and what you did/didn't do, from as many participants as possible is the best way to narrow down the problem and hopefully find a solution. The more reports, the more pressure is on them to find a fix!
The more reports, the more pressure is on them to find a fix!
I don't know about more "pressure" (because duplicate defect reports that don't add anything new are likely to be marked as such and then Closed before any developer sees it). However, more information is better. What they really need is to be able to get this to reproduce for them at will, in a debug/test environment, one with significantly more instrumentation/logging so they can see what's going on in far more detail.
If this problem only happens reliably when servers are well-loaded, they probably cannot get into that state in their NDA program, which leaves Bullroarer. It would be excellent news if Turbine were to start running major stress tests on Bullroarer with an emphasis on running that raid, because it would mean that they stand a much better chance of isolating the problem.
Worse than the absurd Draigoch bug - which STILL causes him to completely bug out at the end of phase 3 - is the fact that Turbine STILL hasn't fixed it. Two full raid nights, wasted, on this.
We are dealing with a complicated distributed real time client server application. It is often very difficult to reproduce, find and fix defects. It is very common to run into a situation where a non-live test facility can't help the developers.
You are forced to put data collection into live - do the data collection in a way that doesn't negatively impact your customers. Assuming you get good data, you develop a fix that you can't test. You put the "fix" in live and hope.
Originally Posted by TheStormKing
But that is still not the most grievous blow. It's the absurd, short-sighted, lame, stupid rule that they simply won't let GMs kill him for raids that deserve him dead. You have to waste all that time - AGAIN - only to watch him bug out.
It is all about dollars. Somewhere there is a team of Decision Makers (DM). All these proposals have been made:
1) Development - We can fix it. Give us the authorization to make Draigoch our highest priority. Let all other tasks slip until it is fixed. DM - Denied. Costs too many dollars. Reduces revenues.
2) Customer Service - We can help all the customers that put in tickets. Give us the authorization to use over time to get the staff hours. Let all other tasks slip if necessary. DM - Denied. Costs too many dollars.
3) Customer Service - Let us turn off the instance while Development fixes it. See 1. DM - Denied. Costs too many dollars.
4) Add other alternatives.
It all comes down to the DM deciding it is not a big enough issue to require the resources to solve the issue in a timely fashion. The only way we have of changing the DM is via a Net Flix reaction.
A) Hundreds of posts a day. Keep it up for weeks.
B) Quit playing the game - note in the feedback - Fix Draigoch I will come back,
C) The entire customer base boycotts the content. Refuses to buy it. Turbine has a product that is not being used or bought.
D) Add other ideas.
IMHO - There is not a sufficient customer back lash to get Turbine to sit up and do anything. There are lots of people running the instance and happily completing it. If they are like one of my best friends, the failure rate is extremely low. I think he only had one failure in 2012. He knows exactly which person caused Draigoch to go Brain Dead - How this person caused the instance to lock up.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
I can't speak for others problems because I don't know what strategies they're employing, nor can I account for Turbine's inability to fix this bug, but I can tell you this from my own experience. I've run this raid every single week since late October, and I have only seen it bug once. That one time, it was because someone was defeated and auto-resurrected up at the top of the cave. That person ran down the zig-zagging tunnels and came to the ledge to watch the rest of the fight, and eventually the dragon targeted him and bugged out, as draigoch was unable to reach this player up on the ledge.
I cannot say that this is the cause of the bug, but ever since I have stressed that if you revive up top, stay up top in that opening cave area and do not run down the tunnels to watch the rest of the fight. I've never had it bug on me since, and most people that I have shared this theory with have come up with similar results.
Another big one that I discovered while jumping around in Orthanc's acid wing. If you are in the air while rezzing someone (a captain's Cry of Vengeance, for example), then that person will revive at the very start of a given raid instance. In Draigoch, this can happen when the dragon is pounding the walls and making the players in the caves bounce up and down. This bug was confirmed by many players on these forums a month or two ago, and I've yet to see any dev notes about fixing it. Therefore, I would advise that if you -are- going to resurrect someone in the Draigoch fight, make sure your are on solid ground so that the player doesn't revive up top (and subsequently try to run back down).
As I noted above, this doesn't exclude Turbine from their failure to fix the bug, as I can imagine it is very frustrating for many people. However, I find it intriguing that some people have been able to run Draigoch bug free for over 6 months, while others experience the bug almost every week. Hopefully these theories on what causes the bug will at least be able to help others through the fight until the time when the bug is ultimately corrected altogether. Until then, good luck and happy hunting with the dragon!
~Landroval~ Raigar - 75 Captain | Raigorn - 75 Hunter Captains of the West - Leader
Founder | Lifetime Member | Raider | Roleplayer
It all comes down to the DM deciding it is not a big enough issue to require the resources to solve the issue in a timely fashion.
Correct, and this isn't something that's uncommon at all. In my recent situation, it took my company 6 months to get to the point where it would clear the schedule of 2 engineers and say "work on nothing else until this is fixed - there are no other priorities, and we'll give you all the resources you need".
What tipped it over the edge? A customer with lots of $$ and a pending $1+M order got hit by the problem and it was making them cranky, plus fear that this performance-related issue would be seen by other large accounts. If it weren't for that, I suspect we would have continued applying kludges or telling our customers not to do certain things that aggravated the problem until the next major release (in the fall).
In tough economic times, $$ speaks loudest. That's why I said that if this is really a huge deal to people, they should go play something else (and let Turbine know why they're playing something else when they cancel their subscriptions). When Yula's "DM" sees that it's costing them a lot of revenue, it will get fixed. Until then, it's just going to be in the pile of priorities they have to work on along with many dozens of other things.
Correct, and this isn't something that's uncommon at all. In my recent situation, it took my company 6 months to get to the point where it would clear the schedule of 2 engineers and say "work on nothing else until this is fixed - there are no other priorities, and we'll give you all the resources you need".
Years ago, there was problem in my software. I could not get the authorization to put priority on fixing it. I had a buddy over at one of the big accounts. I talked to him on the phone. You want it fixed. Have every one of your sites that has our software, put in a customer report complaining that issue is affecting their local operation. Customer service got hit with over 100 different site reports in a week. All of these site reports escalated upward thru the district, state, regional management layers. Two complaints from one district in one state and one region got ignored. When it got to the 30 districts, 10 states, 3 regions and climbing. Suddenly - Yula you got to do something - Fix it.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Nice job - quick move it out of General Forums so no one see it. Bravo - don't let people focus on this issue.
Turbine does not need to fix this. All they need is for new players to sign up and for people to buy TP and use the store. With their new model, who cares if customers are unsatisfied - especially when new people who don't know about the bug will buy the expansion or this raid.
Having any shame, fixing bugs like this, trying to give something back to customers, admitting they have a problem - these are all low priority. All that matters is that new players sign up and people buy TP.
Being fair, being decent, giving something back, being open - none of this is linked to how much money in the store they will make. When it was a sub game - it mattered a lot more. Lotro is a machine now - and on the highest level - the machine is working fine - it is making money.
Not to say that some staff do not want to fix this, or have not tried, but things like this are not a priority. A buggy game that makes lots of money is WAI.
To the people posting who have run it "30 times and only seen it bug once." or whatever numbers; Your understanding of statistics is weak. If you win the lottery it doesn't mean lottery tickets are a good investment for everyone, it just means you got lucky. Statistically, Draigoch bugging has been a problem for most, if not all, regular raiders of the instance.
And everyone, on every server, has their own pet theories as to what makes him bug. Nobody really knows outside of Turbine. And possibly not even Turbine knows. Exploit tanking? Maybe. Number of FMs in a ground phase? Sure, why not. RK stones? LM pets, Cappy banners? Heard them all. Last week, post Update 6.1 I saw Draigoch bug in phase 1. That was new to me. At least it only wasted a collective 2 1/2 hours of people's time, and not much more.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
To the people posting who have run it "30 times and only seen it bug once." or whatever numbers; Your understanding of statistics is weak. If you win the lottery it doesn't mean lottery tickets are a good investment for everyone, it just means you got lucky. Statistically, Draigoch bugging has been a problem for most, if not all, regular raiders of the instance.
To the people posting who have run it "30 times and it bugs more than half." or whatever numbers; Your understanding of statistics is weak. If you lose everything in the market it doesn't mean stock's are a bad investment for everyone, it just means you got unlucky (or have done poor research). Statistically, Draigoch bugging has been a problem for few regular raiders of the instance.
To the people posting who have run it "30 times and it bugs more than half." or whatever numbers; Your understanding of statistics is weak. If you lose everything in the market it doesn't mean stock's are a bad investment for everyone, it just means you got unlucky (or have done poor research). Statistically, Draigoch bugging has been a problem for few regular raiders of the instance.
Opinions are great.
I would like to know the source of your statistics. Or, are you confusing statistics with opinion?
Statistically, Draigoch bugging has been a problem for few regular raiders of the instance.
Opinions are great.
They sure are.
Your source for that information is? I know many regular raiders who've had it bug. Does that make my info more valid? No. Just means I know different people than you do. Draigoch bugging was improved since the start, and many of the suggested work-arounds in my experience (and only that) seem to reduce the odds greatly. But I suspect there are people unlucky enough to still have it bug often enough to be annoying.
My own theory is that there's a random chance element to the script bugging out. So if you're in a pug with weak DPS, people new to it, etc., it takes longer than an experienced, geared kin or regular raid group. And since it takes longer, odds are higher that the script will break. But that's only a theory.
I'm personally unwilling to dedicate the time and effort to get a bunch of people together to run controlled attempts to see what can make Draigoch bug, and take careful notes of how often. Unless Turbine wants to pay me to do it. Then I'm open to it. Since we're still having the instance bug months after release, I suspect the budget for fixing it may not be a top company priority. *shrug*
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
Usually breaks in phase 3, but last time he broke in phase 2. I've also heard of phase 1 breaks. It is really annoying and I'm surprised it hasn't been added to the known issues yet.
I am in full agreement with the OP. In my situation, being in a different time zone than most people who play the game, I have to take a Dragon run whenever I can get it. I don't normally get even one a week, and when they bug out like they do, it makes it basically impossible for me to get the cloak without spending 100+g. In the past 2 months, I've done the raid 3 times. It's lagged out 2/3 times and I just don't have the opportunity to keep doing it over and over hoping for a 10% success rate.
No, you don't. Unless you can run a debugger on LotRO? Where can I get that?
L O L.
well, when we were doing the conjunction and the cappy screwed up, we knew this would probably cause Draigoch to bug, 'cause we didn't complete a conjunction in that ground phase.. guess what, he bugged then exactly as we knew he would... so yes, we know what caused it, it is quite common knowledge too among serious raiders...
the funny thing that you usually only hear casual raiders complain about him bugging... he doesn't seem to bug for hardcore raiders that often.. coincidence? Or is it maybe that we know how to avoid the bugs?
Re: AW: Re: AW: Braindead Draigoch? Still? COME ON!
Originally Posted by Sir_Thorblod
well, when we were doing the conjunction and the cappy screwed up, we knew this would probably cause Draigoch to bug, 'cause we didn't complete a conjunction in that ground phase.. guess what, he bugged then exactly as we knew he would... so yes, we know what caused it, it is quite common knowledge too among serious raiders...
the funny thing that you usually only hear casual raiders complain about him bugging... he doesn't seem to bug for hardcore raiders that often.. coincidence? Or is it maybe that we know how to avoid the bugs?
This is rediculous. The reason Draigoch bugged is not because someone missed a color in a Fellowship Maneuver. Draigoch bugged because the Draigoch raid is defective.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Braindead Draigoch? Still? COME ON!
Originally Posted by dietlbomb
This is rediculous. The reason Draigoch bugged is not because someone missed a color in a Fellowship Maneuver. Draigoch bugged because the Draigoch raid is defective.
yes it does. Not completing at least one Maneuver in a body phase (in phase 3 at least) will probably cause him to bug. It's not certain that it happens, but very likely and if it does then it does because "someone missed a color" as you put it... a lot of people know this and have verified/experienced it!
yes it does. Not completing at least one Maneuver in a body phase (in phase 3 at least) will probably cause him to bug. It's not certain that it happens, but very likely and if it does then it does because "someone missed a color" as you put it... a lot of people know this and have verified/experienced it!
I disagree. If this were true, then someone at Turbine would be able to confirm it and tell us to avoid the problem. Remember the known issues list they released when ToO came out? It told us a bunch of things to avoid in the raid. Then they fixed them. Noone at Turbine has any clue how to fix Draigoch because the code is apparently unfathomable.
Your experience is based off of 1 data point, from which it is impossible to make a generalization. Some groups have had this raid bug on them multiple times while following all the so-called guidelines perfectly.
Besides, there shouldn't even be a strategy to avoid bugs. The strategy should be to avoid failure, to avoid wiping, or to increase your speed. Anything other than trying to avoid a defect in a $15-per-player code abomination.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
yes it does. Not completing at least one Maneuver in a body phase (in phase 3 at least) will probably cause him to bug. It's not certain that it happens, but very likely and if it does then it does because "someone missed a color" as you put it... a lot of people know this and have verified/experienced it!
I've heard placing an RK healing stone down can cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard summoning a pet can cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard that re-trying Draigoch after a wipe without disbading to reset the instance can cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard that having someone retreat on death can cause Draigoch to bug.
I have heard a great many things... But I ain't never seen an elephant fly- I mean, I've never heard that missing a colour will cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard placing an RK healing stone down can cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard summoning a pet can cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard that re-trying Draigoch after a wipe without disbading to reset the instance can cause Draigoch to bug.
I've heard that having someone retreat on death can cause Draigoch to bug.
I have heard a great many things... But I ain't never seen an elephant fly- I mean, I've never heard that missing a colour will cause Draigoch to bug.
Done all of the above and he never bugged, I am guessing that is why it is hard for Turbine to pinpoint the issue because for some grps he simply does not bug, hell I can't even recall the last brain dead Dragon we had, maybe the answer lies in comparing between 2 groups and see what the 2 groups do differently to each other as some are able to bug him out pretty much every time. while other groups never have a issue.
No one notice's what i do, until i stop doing it. - A LM quote
Re: AW: Re: AW: Braindead Draigoch? Still? COME ON!
Originally Posted by Sir_Thorblod
the funny thing that you usually only hear casual raiders complain about him bugging... he doesn't seem to bug for hardcore raiders that often.. coincidence? Or is it maybe that we know how to avoid the bugs?
Yet again, wrong... *sigh* I run with a hardcore group and we've had it bug back to back, though now that everyone has 1st agers on a few characters, we can usually dps through the bug if everyone is paying attention (though we never schedule a dragon since we're working on t2 CMs 5 nights a week, so the raids always happen late when people are tired :P.) Actually a more casual group that I join now and again (since they schedule runs) has had a lot fewer bugged runs than the hardcore group. It's almost like doing it too fast, planning it so that you kill him with an FM is what bugs it. Who knows.. it's just so stupidly random.
yes it does. Not completing at least one Maneuver in a body phase (in phase 3 at least) will probably cause him to bug. It's not certain that it happens, but very likely and if it does then it does because "someone missed a color" as you put it... a lot of people know this and have verified/experienced it!
Take this for what it is : one persons unconfirmable experiences. These are things that I have personally seen in the runs that I have done and not had draigoch bug.
Cappy banner, RK rock, linkdead player, player death, more than 12 cjs completed, cjs with colors other than red or yellow, and body on the ground with no cj being performed.
All I can say at this point is that whatever it is that is causing the bug is not known. Therefore it is very difficult to track and fix.
The problem with these threads is not that Turbine doesn't KNOW that Draigoch is broken. The problem is that Turbine no longer cares, they have Orthanc to fine tune (too many months after launch) and an expansion to work on. Gortheron still bugs out in phase 5, how high on their list of priorities do you think Draigoch is?
We did Draigoch last night, and yes he bugged as usual towards the end of phase 3, just the same way as it has been since it was released. Absolutely pathetic Turbine, absolutely absurd.
Suggestion: Give the Draigoch raid for free to people, and offer a money refund back to people who previously purchased it; unless you as a company are too greedy of course.
Originally Posted by Turbine Inc.
Under distance selling legislation, you have a right to cancel your purchase of the Expansion at any time until the earlier of: (i) seven working days after purchase; (ii) the point at which your account within the game is credited with Turbine Points acquired as a result of the purchase of the Expansion; or (iii) the point at which the Expansion automatically installs. Where either (ii) or (iii) apply, you accept that as a consequence of provision of the service starting earlier than the end of the usual cancellation period you will forfeit your right to cancel. Essentially, you cannot cancel the Expansion once you have been given Turbine Points or the Expansion has installed and become available for you to play, since you will already have started to enjoy the benefits of purchase.
If a product is not working as advertised or indented, is that not a case of falsified information?
Turbine stated clearly that we are not allowed a refund on the product after it has installed, but they never mentioned that the product would be permanently faulty. Had I known that it would not work as it was advertised, I would never have paid for it.
Does anyone have any evidence that points to time being a factor? It seems when things go badly and we have to do some rezing and it takes a bit longer than normal, that will often (not always) lead to a bug. Has anyone else experienced this?
Does anyone have any evidence that points to time being a factor? It seems when things go badly and we have to do some rezing and it takes a bit longer than normal, that will often (not always) lead to a bug. Has anyone else experienced this?
Obviously time is a factor: If you're longer in there you've got more chance that whatever it is that triggers the bug occurs in your run. But it's not like he bugs only after 40m or something.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
There are so many rumours about what causes Draigoch to bug, that it seems the only thing left to do is to have everyone stand at a distance and try to kill it down with hard stares (harsh language is out, as taunts apparently make it bug!).
Still, for whatever reason it does bug. For my raid (thankfully) only rarely, but he went thoroughly braindead last night on phase 3. Doubly annoying as we'd just saved ourselves from a stupid almost-wipe. Personally, I think he was just having a meh moment and decided if we weren't going to wipe, well then he wasn't going to play.
Main: Tirnolwe of The Lost Companions, Laurelin (75LM)
Alts: Silithil (75CHP) Campion (75GRD) Alunadail (75MIN) Geirdis (75CP) Turbine no plans to fix MyLotro.
well, when we were doing the conjunction and the cappy screwed up, we knew this would probably cause Draigoch to bug, 'cause we didn't complete a conjunction in that ground phase.. guess what, he bugged then exactly as we knew he would... so yes, we know what caused it, it is quite common knowledge too among serious raiders...
the funny thing that you usually only hear casual raiders complain about him bugging... he doesn't seem to bug for hardcore raiders that often.. coincidence? Or is it maybe that we know how to avoid the bugs?
Haha, yes, clearly something that happened once to one group is the bug.
I've been in groups where we've gone multiple rounds in phase 3 without any CJs, and had it complete (Burg went linkdead, and we had to make people use TP on bard services so they could trait kick/TTK/and even bog lurker for CJs). And I've seen it bug while doing CJs flawlessly.
I've only seen it bug 4 times in 50 or 60 runs, but 3 of those times I was on my Minstrel. Should I start a conspiracy theory, too, about how bagpipes will bug out Draig?
Just accept that you're lucky--you're not any more of a "serious raider" than plenty of groups that have had it bug.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Well, the good thing is that there are now more bugs than the braindead bug. You can now also get the cave in while the tank is tanking... how they managed to create that bug is beyond me though
As I write this my Captain is standing under Draigoch, Yeps his bugged out on us and were now waiting for a GM to respond to our requests. Were not hopeful as it's been a while and according to another member the last couple of times this happened to him on raids they did nothing.
And here it is after 20mins wait
+Ogdred+ tells you, 'Thank you for your inquiry regarding the Draigoch raid. We do apologize, but In Game Support is unable to assist with this bugged issue. In Game Support is not able to force Draigoch to reactivate, defeat Draigoch for the party or grant any potential raid rewards.'
So the question is, if Turbine is UNABLE to fix the Draigoch Raid, shouldn't they take some responsibility to compensate those affected by their poor product?
Twelve people with the assembly time and actual play is a combined 24hours spent, every single person paid for this Raid either separately or as part of the RoI expansion pack.
If they can't fix the raid, at least provide the support!
Sorry rant over but it's just so frustrating when the thing crashes on you after all that work.
Yet again, Draigoch became unattackable in phase 3 with all four claws on the ground tonight. No discernible reason why. Turbine clearly overreached when creating and marketing this encounter.
I'm starting to think they should just make a copy of the turtle raid that drops scales. One boss standing in one room with no fancy gimmicks seems to be about the only thing the company can do reliably.
I'm starting to think they should just make a copy of the turtle raid that drops scales. One boss standing in one room with no fancy gimmicks seems to be about the only thing the company can do reliably.
Sadly this is true. Phase III is a face roll but for that pesky brain-dead thing. It is pathetic that the developers/management/whomever would rather spend time on a makeover of old content than fixing new instances – don’t look for anything in the U7 release notes either.
Turbine has gone on record what 2, 3, maybe more times saying “made adjustments to blah blah blah”. It is clear at this point they are clueless about what to do.
The real injustice is that a stock loot chest could be established and GMs could be empowered to award a win for those who end up with the bugged lizard – but customer satisfaction is not a priority.
Just stay away from the instance. If it goes unused, maybe it will get the same attention as Fornost. The instance is bugged, it was made by those who are clueless and the disinterested keep it, the instance is bugged.
...
Turbine has gone on record what 2, 3, maybe more times saying “made adjustments to blah blah blah”. It is clear at this point they are clueless about what to do....
Well, it is a fact that previous patches have brought some improvement for various people. The question is, if others are bugging MORE now with the patches
They should just have each claw drop a scale every time you defeat one*. This has gone on long enough.
*(or at least have a chance to drop a scale. How about a 5% drop rate in phase 1, 10% in phase 2, and 15% in phase 3. Get your scales before he bugs!)
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
Update 7 doesn't seem to have changed anything. We tried Draigoch twice last night and he went braindead both times in Phase 3. It's ridiculous. Guess we'll go play Diablo III now that the servers are stable.
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Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
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Since we're still having the instance bug months after release, I suspect the budget for fixing it may not be a top company priority. *shrug*
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