Thread: Last Stand shared with Shield Brother

I don't know if this would be too overpowered (I would assume not, since the CD on LS is pretty long), but I propose that Last Stand be shared with your Shield-Brother. I can think of so many situations where this would be awesome. Not that we're not already awesome

Thoughts?

I think what you're looking for is In Harms Way.

Personally, I think it makes for more interesting choices having the two separated out and affecting the whole fellowship with IHW.

it would be insanely overpowered.

I think what you're looking for is called shield of the dunedain.

No neither of those are nearly what I'm looking for. In Harm's Way only takes half by default and they can still die.

Originally Posted by Graycient

I don't know if this would be too overpowered (I would assume not, since the CD on LS is pretty long), but I propose that Last Stand be shared with your Shield-Brother. I can think of so many situations where this would be awesome. Not that we're not already awesome

Thoughts?

To be honest I think this is a great idea, and wouldn't be over-powered at all. It fits nicely into our support role as well, giving us another unique way to help save people when they get into trouble. Kudos for a great idea.

Y'know, it was the captain + 5 champs + un-nerfed IHW + LS that got IHW nerfed in the first place...

This suggestion reminds me too much of that combo....

Agreed. Between In Harms Way, Shield of the Dunedain, and Strength of Will (shield-brother), I believe we have enough skills that reduce incoming damage to a fellow. It's nice to think about, but a skill that is this powerful would need to sacrifice a lot in order to keep it balanced.

Instead, I would rather see the range of In Harms Way increased. In fights where positioning is key, I find that the person I want to negate damage for is often outside the effective range for In Harms Way. During the Saruman battle on Orthanc, for example, I usually have to run a semi-circle away from the rest of my group just to get in range of the tank for In Harms Way. For that matter, Valiant Strike could use an increase in range too.

Originally Posted by Krindus

Agreed. Between In Harms Way, Shield of the Dunedain, and Strength of Will (shield-brother), I believe we have enough skills that reduce incoming damage to a fellow. It's nice to think about, but a skill that is this powerful would need to sacrifice a lot in order to keep it balanced.

Instead, I would rather see the range of In Harms Way increased. In fights where positioning is key, I find that the person I want to negate damage for is often outside the effective range for In Harms Way. During the Saruman battle on Orthanc, for example, I usually have to run a semi-circle away from the rest of my group just to get in range of the tank for In Harms Way. For that matter, Valiant Strike could use an increase in range too.

Really, there's little reason why the ranges for all of our skills shouldn't be in the 20-30m range.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Really, there's little reason why the ranges for all of our skills shouldn't be in the 20-30m range.

Yes, especially VS. People tend to leave the boss when they are dying at which point VS misses the people that need it.

I'm also pretty unimpressed with halberd range. A warg has a much larger autoattack range than I do with a halberd. I tested it. A goblin with a 1 hander has a longer attack range than I do with a halberd. I think this weapon should have the same benefits it was used for in real life. Halberds were used to pull people of horseback they should have a longer range than a wargs face or a goblin 1hand. (halberd and 2hander real life length were mostly identical)

as a side note they were also designed for blocking swords so the 2handed blocking is actually pretty clever of turbine.

I play both PvP and PvE heavily. From my point of view, you have possibly chosen the most overpowered thing possible.

PvP: I duo in the Moors, a lot. I most often pocket heal a mini. If I could LS him? and then after that, IHW him? That is so over powered that I don't even want to have it as a possibility.

PvE: If I could LS the tank as well, it would make many, many boss fights easier.

Originally Posted by Armitas

I'm also pretty unimpressed with halberd range.

Me too. From what I can tell it's the same as our 1h range. C'mon with a 6-7-8 foot long polearm our range should be 6 feet easy. At least Turbine recognizes that spears are melee weapons and not thrown, like javelins, pilums or harpoons. There really should be 2h spears as well though, similar to a halberd but without the axe-head lookin portion.

Yeah, I would sure like to see 2H-weapons, or at least the halberd, be given a longer reach. I know there are a few enemies that use non-standard melee range so it appears it's do-able code-wise.

Originally Posted by Moejo

From what I can tell it's the same as our 1h range. C'mon with a 6-7-8 foot long polearm our range should be 6 feet easy.

Would make more sense wouldn't it? :P

its would have to have like a 5m range.


i think this would be too over-powered, at first tought.

id take it, gladly, if it was put in the game though.

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

its would have to have like a 5m range.


i think this would be too over-powered, at first tought.

id take it, gladly, if it was put in the game though.

Since Guards have a "Targeted skills melee skills range" legacy, presumably it is not
hard for the game to have flexible ranges for weapons. Can't see the single target vs
multi-target distinction is a big one technically, though balance wise perhaps it is.
Could make this a legacy I guess, would make a multi-target weapon more powerful
(PA targets, PA Crit, melee range for example).

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Since Guards have a "Targeted skills melee skills range" legacy, presumably it is not
hard for the game to have flexible ranges for weapons. Can't see the single target vs
multi-target distinction is a big one technically, though balance wise perhaps it is.
Could make this a legacy I guess, would make a multi-target weapon more powerful
(PA targets, PA Crit, melee range for example).

It's not like we have a ton of AoE to make it OP. I've seen burgs with a 20m trick range. How does a hobbit kick(counter defense)something 20 meters away? Or throw dust 20 meters? I'd prefer melee skills to have a realistic range, depending on your weapon type. Halberds would have the greatest range, daggers the least.

Originally Posted by Moejo

I'd prefer melee skills to have a realistic range, depending on your weapon type. Halberds would have the greatest range, daggers the least.

Weapons normalization was to make all 2-H the "same" and all 1-H weapons the "same", so there weren't "good weapons" and "bad weapons". I think it is nice to have some choices based on cosmetic preference and not min-max. Of course, I use a sword for the 2% so who am I to talk?

If 2 handers gave longer range, that would be awesome. the explosion radius for the static shock in Kalbak is 10m. Wardens range is 2.5 m, Kalbak is 5 m in diameter, we hit 2.5 m currently. So if we and champs had a little more range we'd be fine having both us and the Warden tank stand still during the shock. Burgs would get shafted though.

Guard tanks can already stand such that the melee dps can safely be out of range, with their longer range legs. Hmm, at what range does the tank have to be for Kalbak to eventually decide to close the gap?

i was talking that a shared last stand should only work within 5m. like burglar shared sneak.

missed any talk about new/extra AoEs... ill go read the rest of the thread


edit: oh, you thought i meant 2hnd wep range... 5m is actually a good number! maybe 7m... whatever basic AoE range is, should be default range for 2hnder, imo.

Oh yeah, back on topic. My knee-jerk reaction is that a shared last stand would be over powered. What would make it not-overpowered? Maybe its own legendary trait... but I don't want to give anything up for it.

As a capstone, I think it would be nice. It fits neatly into the captain's role. But as a default skill, no. Too overpowered, and I see the potential for endless PvP whining and subsequent nerf-clusterbombs over this.

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

Oh yeah, back on topic. My knee-jerk reaction is that a shared last stand would be over powered. What would make it not-overpowered? Maybe its own legendary trait... but I don't want to give anything up for it.

I really don't think it would be over-powered. Letting last stand be shared with shield brother is a very reasonable idea.

On a side note, I think it's funny how some of the same people on this thread suggesting that it would be over-powered are the very same people who think our heralds should be equal to a skirmish solider and argued that woudn't be over-powered.

Truly what constitutes "over-powered" is in the eye of the beholder it seems

Originally Posted by Jeremi

I really don't think it would be over-powered. Letting last stand be shared with shield brother is a very reasonable idea.

Clearly you weren't playing a captain back when champs could faceroll Moria bosses thanks to a 100% IHW + LS. This suggestion hearkens back to that skill combo, and the reason why it was removed.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

On a side note, I think it's funny how some of the same people on this thread suggesting that it would be over-powered are the very same people who think our heralds should be equal to a skirmish solider and argued that woudn't be over-powered.

Truly what constitutes "over-powered" is in the eye of the beholder it seems

Jeremi, stop trolling the captain forums - it's getting old.

Shield of the dunedain is a legendary trait reducing damage to a target by 75% for 15s.

Last Stand would be stopping a target from dying for up to 25s, and would not require a legendary trait.

It also doesn't make much sense, since that would be so similar to shield of the dunedain.

So if it's not obvious why that's OP, yet...
Captain one does SotD, then LS. That's 40s of really not needing to heal your tank.
THen you swap captain B to Captain A's group, and have him do the same thing - for another 40s of not needing to heal the tank.

Gee that doesn't sound so bad... Except now the tank is a hunter. Because if your tank doesn't need to absorb damage then all you need is someone to hold threat.

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

i was talking that a shared last stand should only work within 5m. like burglar shared sneak.

missed any talk about new/extra AoEs... ill go read the rest of the thread


edit: oh, you thought i meant 2hnd wep range... 5m is actually a good number! maybe 7m... whatever basic AoE range is, should be default range for 2hnder, imo.

First take a look at the base range of your skills as is. It is 3m for the ones that I looked at. Or expressed in ft 9.8 This is about the length of a human arm plus 7ft. So you already have a "realistic" distance. for a 5m range you are looking at 16.4 and 7m is 22.9 ft! That is very much like hitting someone who is standing at the other end of your living room. The distances are already ok, it is just that it is very had to judge things in 3d space represented out of scale on a computer monitor.

Originally Posted by Qwyxzl

First take a look at the base range of your skills as is. It is 3m for the ones that I looked at. Or expressed in ft 9.8 This is about the length of a human arm plus 7ft. So you already have a "realistic" distance. for a 5m range you are looking at 16.4 and 7m is 22.9 ft! That is very much like hitting someone who is standing at the other end of your living room. The distances are already ok, it is just that it is very had to judge things in 3d space represented out of scale on a computer monitor.

i agree those numbers jive with my gut. but there are som other factors. like out streching your arms and extending your body.

when i studied martial arts we learned many weapons. there are plenty that can hit a 10m, but they are usually chains and whips. a master with a spear can extend to 15-20ft (back foot to tip of spear), so 5-7m isnt too far off. ive seen it... with mine own eyeses!

ive seen a kwan-do swung one handed. that is the closest equiv to a halberd ive seen used. that had a huge radius. it woudl have hit everyone in MY living room!

then again, thess dudes were wearing light silk/satin outfits... imagine in full plate...

so, ill stick with my 5-7m for two handed weapons and 3m for one handers. thanks for calling me out though

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Clearly you weren't playing a captain back when champs could faceroll Moria bosses thanks to a 100% IHW + LS. This suggestion hearkens back to that skill combo, and the reason why it was removed.



Jeremi, stop trolling the captain forums - it's getting old.

Just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they are trolling. Nor does pointing out inconsistencies, which is what I was doing there. However, continuously going out of your way to insult people and call them names however..., that is trolling. Something you have been known to do on occasion, especially where it concerns myself

In any case, that wasn't even meant as an insult. Just a point to prove that what people may or may not consider OP is deffinitely subjective.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

Shield of the dunedain is a legendary trait reducing damage to a target by 75% for 15s.

Last Stand would be stopping a target from dying for up to 25s, and would not require a legendary trait.

It also doesn't make much sense, since that would be so similar to shield of the dunedain.

So if it's not obvious why that's OP, yet...
Captain one does SotD, then LS. That's 40s of really not needing to heal your tank.
THen you swap captain B to Captain A's group, and have him do the same thing - for another 40s of not needing to heal the tank.

Gee that doesn't sound so bad... Except now the tank is a hunter. Because if your tank doesn't need to absorb damage then all you need is someone to hold threat.

No it isn't obvious, least not to me. You argument is rather far-fetched also - talking about swapping different captains into other groups so you could stack the effect. That would be a huge pain to do - not to mention if you want to talk like that what's to stop people from having a whole long list of captains in waiting to keep swapping in the group to reapply shield of the dunedain. There is no end to that kind of thinking, and you could claim just about any defensive tool of worth is OP by such a logic.

Sides, there is plenty of ways to fix the issue of swapping captains in to reapply buffs if that's what you are worried about. Simply put an effect on someone after he has had last stand used on him that doens't allow it to be re-applied for the next 15 minutes. Problem solved.

This is a very sound, cool, and reasonable idea if you ask me. And it may even help Almagnus heal Darg tier2s without a serious tank, something he was complaining about not being able to do earlier. Now someone suggests a change that may very well help him do it, and he's against it. Go figure.