I am suggesting a new legendary trait, and am suggesting some changes to an existing legendary trait. I'm not suggesting that one overwrite the other, rather that we have two separate legendary traits that we can choose between depending on what build we want.
Staff/Shield I think it would be nice to have a shield like the minstrel does (light shield) to help our defenses when doing hard quests. Do we NEED this? There are certain circumstances where stuns and slows are not useable. This should apply a chance to stop your inductions from being setback, add to your parry rating, and better improve your in-combat morale regen.
Staff/Sword I don't think the stats on the legendary trait make any sense, so I've taken the liberty of editing (see below).
I've created an example of what I think it should be like. The stats in my example are merely examples... They don't necessarily need to be THAT high or THAT low. But the stats themselves would be nice to be included:
Notice how I've edited Staff/Sword to me more useful for melee fighting, rather than a hyrbid. They might be able to remove the maximum morale off of the staff/sword trait, but I haven't thought of a good replacement...
Questions? Comments?
Last edited by Graycient; Apr 28 2012 at 07:14 PM.
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
I like the thought behind all the adjustments you have put forth, but I am sorry I am gonna have to disagree a bit here....
I actually love the current passive bonuses that S&S currently gives.....despite the fact that I do think they should be scaled up a bit for a legendary trait.....but they make complete sense.....with dual wielding, obviously you'd get more chances to parry an attack with two weapons and being in melee gives more fluidity to evade......and why they work all together than attack duration is that when I am in melee range with mobs (which is part of the purpose of S&S), I would prefer a much better defense (parry/evade) so that I dont have to give up my tactical skills rotation completely.....avoidance ratings help reduce induction setback and interrupts, thus in turn helping the Loremaster be more effective with his/her tactical spells while in melee.....although I do like the melee skills cooldown passive.....it makes my improved staff strike cooldown to 2.5 seconds....making my dps from a non-induction immediate skill alone, 1000+ on crits.....would be cool
As for Sword & Shield.....other than the passives of that legendary trait, using an actual shield wouldnt be much beneficial to us.....the main reason why shields are used is because of the block rating and additional armor....and since our Might usually is laughable (mine is 80), I dont see us having a great block rating, which would mean despite having the shield, it wouldnt do us much good.....now if we have an option of offwielding a sword which almost doubles my base dps, increases parry/evade, etc and an option to use a shield which gives a very meagre amount of protection, many would go for the offwield sword, making the Staff and Shield trait very less used.....also Shields work more in co-operation with heavy armor because of the added armor stat to it, that too is not overly helpful because we never really depend on our armor rating for defense....without heavy armor to support it, I dont see much use of it.....although this is more of a personal opinion because I never understood why they gave shields to Minis.....it made sense when they had medium armor....but now its useless......maybe because LMs got swords as offwield, Minis had to get something since they cant dual wield nor wield 2-handed weapons.....while LMs can at this moment use a 2-hander WITH another 1-hander which no other class can.....
Not to mention, its a bit of a lore thing....not only tolkien lore, but lore in general.....wizards/mages/loremaster sort of classes do not look good with shields.....shields are for those beefy warrior/melee classes......
Last edited by silverblade5445; Apr 29 2012 at 02:08 AM.
As for Sword & Shield.....other than the passives of that legendary trait, using an actual shield wouldnt be much beneficial to us.....the main reason why shields are used is because of the block rating and additional armor....and since our Might usually is laughable (mine is 80), I dont see us having a great block rating,
Sorry , but what ?
I only quoted this last part , and although I usually like what you write , this post seems sooo ... written by someone not fully awake .
You seem to put the lack of might as a problem for us and blocking , but don't we actually have the same issue with a Sword & Parry ?
I only quoted this last part , and although I usually like what you write , this post seems sooo ... written by someone not fully awake .
You seem to put the lack of might as a problem for us and blocking , but don't we actually have the same issue with a Sword & Parry ?
And I don't see anyone complaining about that .
Change is good , what doesn't change dies .
Hehe yes I agree there that that comment is more of a personal opinion and observation than proven universal fact....
I personally never felt shields much use as opposed to weapons when there is an option.....I have heard some debates about a similar issue on Capt forums (since I am levelling a capt alt), about captains who prefer to use Sword and Shield as opposed to 2-hander Swords.....and it dint surprise me much that VERY few used shields and that too very occassionally...even when tanking.....they are a support class as well and not a dps class.....so to both us and them, dps is not THE primary issue.....yet, the usefulness of shields is questionable.....or LIGHT shields to be precise.....heavy shields that guardians use are obviously great, as are warden shields becoz both are an incorporated part of their gameplay.....but for other classes, I dint feel shields make a significant enough difference that people would give up the chance to offwield a weapon if they had it.....atleast from what I've seen.....
One could debate the above point, but just my 2 cents
If you think the kind of buffs or tweaks mentioned are needed for the LM, sure, I don't care either way. I think LM is a pretty strong class though, even with just a staff and no off-hand. But a big NO to shields of any kind for LM. It ruins the visual look of the class for me, I think minstrel shields are silly enough as it is. I wish shields were an optional thing for minstrels.
Also, a light shield is not going to do much for your defenses, especially when you have no skills to buff up your block rating, which will be low because you're obviously not focused on Might. Leave shields to the heavy armor classes, is my opinion, and give the casters some more aesthetically appropriate ways to ward off attacks.
Last edited by MannyCalavera; Apr 29 2012 at 08:47 AM.
But a big NO to shields of any kind for LM. It ruins the visual look of the class for me, I think minstrel shields are silly enough as it is. I wish shields were an optional thing for minstrels.
I absolutely agree with this. Actually, the only reason I cant play with minstrel char is cause of the shield, it completely ruins their aesthetic for me. If LM got shield instead of a sword, I probably would never make it my main.
Leave shields to the heavy armor classes, is my opinion, and give the casters some more aesthetically appropriate ways to ward off attacks.
On this subject, if we're getting a new legendary trait, and if something with shield or protection is to be mentioned, I'd vote for a tactical force-field like shield.....Shield of the Istari or Protection of the Valar or something.....visually like what Gandalf does when the Balrog attempts to strike him with the flaming sword, blue-white transparent dome ......skill-wise, it'd be something like a tactical shield absorbing 75/100 percent damage for a duration of 10-20 seconds and maybe convert 50 percent of it to power or 25 percent to morale.....cast-able on self or others....5 minute cooldown.....we dont have that as of yet.....
I absolutely agree with this. Actually, the only reason I cant play with minstrel char is cause of the shield, it completely ruins their aesthetic for me. If LM got shield instead of a sword, I probably would never make it my main.
Who said anything about "instead"? It's AND. Two traits to choose from. Replacing would be a mistake.
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
On this subject, if we're getting a new legendary trait, and if something with shield or protection is to be mentioned, I'd vote for a tactical force-field like shield.....Shield of the Istari or Protection of the Valar or something.....visually like what Gandalf does when the Balrog attempts to strike him with the flaming sword, blue-white transparent dome ......skill-wise, it'd be something like a tactical shield absorbing 75/100 percent damage for a duration of 10-20 seconds and maybe convert 50 percent of it to power or 25 percent to morale.....cast-able on self or others....5 minute cooldown.....we dont have that as of yet.....
Except we're a lore-master, not a wizard... not even closely based on what Gandalf was.
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
And another thing... LMs already cover a variety of roles, from best AoE debuffer, to high AoE DPS, to power battery, to utility healbot (remove wounds/disease/minor heals)... adding what looks to me like high defense/tanking skills is too much. The class is already so versatile. Don't get me wrong, I love what they've done with the LM. I don't play one anymore but they look insanely fun. But this is just spreading the class too thin.
Adding something extra is running it thin? Isn't that kind of like saying adding an extra stun is running it thin? I personally hate squishing on enemies that are immune to stuns, roots and slows.
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
we gonna give every light armour class a shield? LM's are light armour classes because we have other ways to deal with DMG (debuffs, cc, high burst dps, pets, etc). It wouldn't be balanced to give us a shield and if you think it doesn't break the balance than it is a waste of development time. Love the changes to S&S though.
I don't think a shield really goes with the class at all. Our pets or groupmates really should be our shields if that is our desire or need, and I'd rather see energy used in such a drastic re-envision such as shields be used towards another end. At the end of the day, perhaps have swords with more "defensive" stats...AKA, a sword with no damage rating, but one that offers +parry and defensives. Give a little flexibility to play style in that regard without making every class share too much with every other class. Ever since my D and D chars used parrying daggers back in the day, I've always been a fan of offhand weaponry used more for defensive purposes than offensive output. I see a use for both, of course, but options are always nice.
Except we're a lore-master, not a wizard... not even closely based on what Gandalf was.
Er....thats a huge debate I'd rather not delve too deeply into, lest we derail this thread completely. But whatever Turbine or anyone might say to conceal it, Loremasters are heavily inspired from Gandalf and the other wizards....maybe not "based" on him, but a lot of skills are inspired off him....Burning Embers (which is a pinecone like Gandalf uses in The Hobbit, if you observe carefully), Heal of the Istari (wizard's fire flank is called that in the combat log), Wisdom of the Council, Lightning Storm (recall gandalf on weathertop), Flame of Anor (wielder of the flame of anor as gandalf claims), Cracked Earth (bridge of khazad dum), Pets (radagast's friendship with animals and birds), Sword & Staff (could it get more obvious?)....are just a few examples.....
And anyways, I mentioned Gandalf to describe the visual look of the shield, not to say that we should get -his- skill....
Burning Embers (which is a pinecone like Gandalf uses in The Hobbit, if you observe carefully), Heal of the Istari (wizard's fire flank is called that in the combat log), Wisdom of the Council, Lightning Storm (recall gandalf on weathertop), Flame of Anor (wielder of the flame of anor as gandalf claims), Cracked Earth (bridge of khazad dum), Pets (radagast's friendship with animals and birds), Sword & Staff (could it get more obvious?)....
Light of the Rising Dawn anyone ?
Burning Embers anyone ?
Staff Strike anyone ?
Ancient Craft anyone ?
I had even more examples , but the forums won't allow me to post more than 4 pics x D
My point , let's not kid ourselves saying we're not fake imitations of the Istari , because we are .
Exactly and not only the movie renderings of them, but even the book descriptions....
oh and btw, I'll save our dignity and say we're very much real apprentices of the great wizards rather than just fake imitations lol
Yeah . Actually , even when Tolkien states that there is no magic in ME , he often uses terms such as Witch , sorcery and there is also the Blue Wizards ...
I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, .... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
I can hardly relate my lm to Elrond . Why don't they just admit we're isari-ish and give us that shiny shield Gandalf used against Durin's Bane and Saruman ? ;P
If this suggestion wasn't described as a shield, but rather as 2 variants of the existing sword line, I'd bet there would be more support.
Cosmetic wise, I suppose having a buckler wouldn't look bad. A full shield would seem to look rather silly, although I'm open to seeing great pics of anyone has one.
What I wish, however, was that we could change the cosmetic of the sword and staff to some other object. While that sword-with-staff look definitely works for some people, other people might want to simply wield a staff or dagger (cosmetically, again) or some other strange object (beerstein!). While we might be inspired by some book characters, we needn't be pseudo-copies of them. Not every professor needs to look like Einstein on his bike.
No , seriously . When did the OP mentioned anything about tanking ?
A shield only means we would have a small chance to block and as a consequence , we would have a higher survavility .
Because I do not need more survivability. I am already usually one of the last 2 - 3 alive in the raid. Short of walking in front of the AoE or some other bonehead move, LMs should be one of the few up and moving when the rest are pushing up daisies.
I do not want no need B/P/E. I want to be a LM not board and sword. This game is about 3 updates from everyone having an "it" class. Then "it" class can buff/debuff, swing a sword while his Ents go for the stun with 1.5K morale returned on every hit.
We have at least 3 classes that CC, 4 healing classes, 3 tanking classes, etc. LOTRO is rapidly just becoming all rolled up into one class. The tanks in our kin have gooten to the point they can almost proc FMs at will, at least as easily as a Burg. They just did a Drai run with 5 tanks as no burg was available. Took a little bit to do the run, but they did it. The rest was DPS and heals.
The classes are rapidly losing any sense of purpose as to me they are just a blended mix of it all.
Seems like a good idea but to me its a bit of a lore issue. I can picture a sword and staff on a LM, but a shield and staff? To me that's like Galdalf carrying a shield and staff though he did use one once, but only once. Or trying play ping pong using a baseball bat.
Because I do not need more survivability. I am already usually one of the last 2 - 3 alive in the raid.
LOL yeah . But that has nothing to do with our survavility . It's more like we must be the lowest aggro makers on the group .
Originally Posted by Tatuaje
Short of walking in front of the AoE or some other bonehead move, LMs should be one of the few up and moving when the rest are pushing up daisies.
I do not want no need B/P/E. I want to be a LM not board and sword. This game is about 3 updates from everyone having an "it" class. Then "it" class can buff/debuff, swing a sword while his Ents go for the stun with 1.5K morale returned on every hit.
We have at least 3 classes that CC, 4 healing classes, 3 tanking classes, etc. LOTRO is rapidly just becoming all rolled up into one class. The tanks in our kin have gooten to the point they can almost proc FMs at will, at least as easily as a Burg. They just did a Drai run with 5 tanks as no burg was available. Took a little bit to do the run, but they did it. The rest was DPS and heals.
The classes are rapidly losing any sense of purpose as to me they are just a blended mix of it all.
That's gonna happen , shield or not .
On an ideal world we would have stayed like pre Moria , Minstrels wouldnt have War-speech and Burglars wouldn't be DPS wannabes .
A shield is pushing it, ever fought with a staff? I have, its not something easily done one handed, and it sure as hell is not something easy to do one handed with a bulky and heavy shield in your other hand.
honestly, along these lines, we need a taunt. If you think about it, a force taunt is a form of CC and I think we should have one...
There are countless times when I wish I could just pull that mob away from those noob AoE-ing champs, Blade of Elendil captains, and huntards to really lock it up....
A shield is pushing it, ever fought with a staff? I have, its not something easily done one handed, and it sure as hell is not something easy to do one handed with a bulky and heavy shield in your other hand.
I do it all the time because one hand is occupied with a sword. I even picked up a board IRL and a staff to see if it was possible to move around quickly... and IT IS. Try it! I specifically said light-shield, not a metal heavy shield.
honestly, along these lines, we need a taunt. If you think about it, a force taunt is a form of CC and I think we should have one...
We already have this. Summon your Bear Pet
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
I like the idea of the sword and shield and I don't at the same time.
Perhaps if there was something like a shield we could use but not labelled that. Some kind of arm-guard (not the gloves you already wear) We do befriend birds and you got to wear special gloves in real life to let them sit on you. Maybe something along those lines but battle ready.
The purpose of it would be to give slightly more protection/parry/evade and skill push-back (the theory being a hefty arm guard could bash and protect you slightly more when casting from enemies hitting you).
Ultimately of course you would do less damage on staff sweep and staff strike (due to lack of a sword) however it would help more with casting and surviving.
Just my thoughts on the idea, it avoids the shield by giving us something more in keeping with our class. Not as potent as a shield but it would be beneficial to us
I do not want no need B/P/E. I want to be a LM not board and sword. This game is about 3 updates from everyone having an "it" class. Then "it" class can buff/debuff, swing a sword while his Ents go for the stun with 1.5K morale returned on every hit.
Even with the ideal purpose of this class, there is quite a lot of need of parry/evade.....I agree we definitely dont need block, but we're an induction class, and even with the ton of cc, no LM can deny that he has been in the thick of things many times, stray mobs or mobs who've resisted cc reaching them, whether intentionally or by mistake......parry/evade are crucial to pull off inductions....many LMs dont deem it necessary, but personally I do....we're a cc class doesnt always mean the ideal situation of mobs not being able to reach us.....
Originally Posted by OukannaV
I like the idea of the sword and shield and I don't at the same time.
Perhaps if there was something like a shield we could use but not labelled that. Some kind of arm-guard (not the gloves you already wear) We do befriend birds and you got to wear special gloves in real life to let them sit on you. Maybe something along those lines but battle ready.
The purpose of it would be to give slightly more protection/parry/evade and skill push-back (the theory being a hefty arm guard could bash and protect you slightly more when casting from enemies hitting you).
Ultimately of course you would do less damage on staff sweep and staff strike (due to lack of a sword) however it would help more with casting and surviving.
Just my thoughts on the idea, it avoids the shield by giving us something more in keeping with our class. Not as potent as a shield but it would be beneficial to us
On topic: No shield please, but I really do like the idea of an alternative 'survivability' item. But please, no shield. I like the bracer as posted above!
I still don't see the purpose of a different item that you equip, like a shield or bracer. Just add a defensive version of S&S to complement the offensive one, problem solved.
Yes you got the right idea a bracer type of thing (That is how i imagined it) Maybe something that looks a bit bigger but defo one of those It will only appear on one arm of the Lore-master which I think would look quite cool. It would not give block, but increased parry/evade for sure and help with skill knockback. We would lose will/fate/vit etc from not using a sword so i dont know if putting some other stats on it would be too much?
Okay I've heard plenty of criticism concerning the shield/staff combo, but not many comments on the modifications to the current staff/sword combo. Any comments on that?
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
I was intrigued by how much damage we actually do by just melee hitting and only using the melee staff skills. The results was more shocking than i thought. We are actually very powerful melee hitters I did a spar with a guardian and the rules were to only auto hit and i took off 5k off his morale quicker than he took off 5k morale to me.
This leads me to believe we don't need the -5 attack duration you modified, however the melee skills cool down is good but i can't help but feel it would be slightly op.
Staff sweep can give us..what was it 45% fire crit chance? if we can get that amount of crit buff sooner than every 15 seconds, it could be too much. Staff strike can already be taken down to 5 second could down so would that make it 2.5 second cool-down? or would it only effect its original state before legendary legacy reduced it further? Since my staff strike does roughly 1k a hit on level mobs i fear if it got down to 2.5 seconds a lot of other skills may not be used since you got a nice spam-able 1k hit button.
How about making it so staffs by themselves enable and add to block chance, and have said block chance removed when dual-wielding?
Part of the advantage of using a staff in combat is that it's also pretty effective at blocking attacks - a good strong staff could actually block a sword swipe. However, in order for it to actually be effective at doing so, you need both hands on it.
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Originally Posted by silverblade5445
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really should be our shields if that is our desire or need, and I'd rather see energy used in such a drastic re-envision such as shields be used towards another end. At the end of the day, perhaps have swords with more "defensive" stats...AKA, a sword with no damage rating, but one that offers +parry and defensives. Give a little flexibility to play style in that regard without making every class share too much with every other class. Ever since my D and D chars used parrying daggers back in the day, I've always been a fan of offhand weaponry used more for defensive purposes than offensive output. I see a use for both, of course, but options are always nice.
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