It would help new players somewhat, but I don't support the idea because being able to judge threat for yourself is one of the challenges that makes the game fun for me.
I agree that a threat meter is sorely needed. Playing a hunter I know how easy it is to overaggro and there really needs to be a way to see how close you are to the tank on threat.
This has been suggested before. It was not a popular suggestion. It appears to be favored by ex-WoW players, and the abuse to which it was put in that game convinced a lot of people here that it is a terrible idea for LoTRO.
This has been suggested before. It was not a popular suggestion. It appears to be favored by ex-WoW players, and the abuse to which it was put in that game convinced a lot of people here that it is a terrible idea for LoTRO.
if you dont want to use it you dont have to install it, but it would be nice to see peoples output for tier 2 stuff so you know who your "A" team is, you should always want to bring in your best players that put out the most hps and dps/overall dmg, and that can be controlled through a threat meter...also this game has sucked in ALOT of ex-wow players in or other players from other mmos which do offer these types of addons, the dwindling core people that started playing this game who had never seen a mmo before and played this game just because of the brand name are probably less then 1/2 the people that play now and in end game guild even fewer, so even tho the old school lotro people may not like change to the game turbine likes money more, so give us more addon capabilities plz
would like to see a dps meter that shows everyones dps/healing
and a threat meter would be nice as well
i dont know what the policy on player made addons is, but would def like to see quality versions of these
The way the game software is currently designed it not feasible because you can not get at that data.
There have been at least one attempt to do a DPS meter. I do not believe all the damage information is easily accessable for your character. You got no way to get the data for other group members unless you build a server to receive the information. You have to convince the group members to install a custom program that send the information to the server.
I do not think anyone has ever tried to do a healing meter. It has all the same issues as the DPS meter.
Threat meters are not possible at all. No threat data is sent to our clients. All we have is the current target of the opponent. Given a healing and DPS meter, you might could kludge up some sort of partially working threat meter based on Damage and Healing points. You wouln't have any idea as to how those points convert to hate points. Or how any of the threat reduction, threat dump, threat leech work Or exactly how the modifiers work. Or how the threat skills work. Turbine never provided any numeric information. Turbine likes 'moderately reduces' and similar helpful terms.
I doubt Turbine will ever provide API support. Turbine prefers their customers learn by doing. Turbine prefers us hitting a key to do a single atomic action. Turbine prefers we manually spin our character around to face opponents.
I was kind of surprised at the camera auto face target feature. A big part of group combat is - something is putting arrows in the healer. Does anybody see the archer?
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
The reason why alot of people do not want Meters. They tend to be abused. Stuff like well if you can do this much dps you can not join Raid. Or If you can not have this much Treat. You can not join fellowship Raid. That what happen on WOW.
Years ago when people first asked for a "threat meter", the lead combat system developer for Turbine at the time said that they didn't think providing that would be a good idea - it would simply make the game too formulaic, too easy. I doubt they've changed their minds, and I don't think they should. The game has been dumbed down quite enough.
"Forced" is not a particularly pleasing word to many players, and the very last thing LOTRO needs is more reasons for people to avoid groups, for inexperienced groupers to be shunned, etc.
DPS and health meters aren't really needed. We have combat analysis for that.
Threat meter? You bet! Face it, the only reason we don't have one is because turbine knows it would make the T2 ToO easy and things like T2C FF and T2 Saru possibly doable.
Don't give me that BS about "learning your class" and "getting a feel". If you are at T2 ToO level, you've basically known everything you can get without an actual meter. Do you seriously intend for people to drive without speedometers because they should "learn to drive" and "get a feel"?
As for the blame game, I welcome it. If I'm drawing too much threat DPSing, I WANT to be called out. If you notice your threat/second is just too high, then it tells you that some threat reduction is in order.
Don't give me that BS about "learning your class" and "getting a feel". If you are at T2 ToO level, you've basically known everything you can get without an actual meter. Do you seriously intend for people to drive without speedometers because they should "learn to drive" and "get a feel"?
Heh... I've driven vehicles that didn't have a functioning speedometer and it is trivially easy. You just get a feel for what speed is correct under the given conditions and drive to that. On a freeway, you just obey the *original* "basic speed law": Reasonable and proper. You just go with the flow and you have no problems and no tickets.
Are you trying to tell me that playing in a MMO needs more data than handing a couple of tons of steel at 70 mph and doing so safely?
This has been suggested before. It was not a popular suggestion. It appears to be favored by ex-WoW players, and the abuse to which it was put in that game convinced a lot of people here that it is a terrible idea for LoTRO.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
This is the reason why my answer is HELL NO. I hated that garbage in WoW and I have no desire to see it here. Oh God, no, I don't want to ever experience the attitudes of players in regards to that again.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
are it forced ppl to l2 play , it was a great thing
I've used those meters. You don't learn to play, you follow a bunch of numbers and try to stay in that range. The way it is now, you have to pay attention to your surroundings, like the position of the mob and what he is doing, and watching the health bars of your fellowship members.
Meters are mind numbing because you just go by a bunch of numbers. I'm not an accountant. Playing the LOTRO is learning to play, meters are nothing more than a bike with training wheels and an obnoxious kid telling you how he thinks you should pedal.
Let that stay in WoW.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
Threat meter? You bet! Face it, the only reason we don't have one is because turbine knows it would make the T2 ToO easy and things like T2C FF and T2 Saru possibly doable.
Exactly, it would make content easy for people who use the meters.
At some point, once the math behind every boss and skill is known well enough that the only challenge is following the boss around or healing through a scripted event, those who use the meters will complain about the content being too easy. Once this point comes, what should Turbine do?
If Turbine uses their current method of balancing encounters, ignoring those who use meters, I doubt many hardcore raiders would stick around very long. But if they implement a new method of balancing encounters, to make content difficult for those with meters, players who don't use plugins will be effectively locked out of the content.
As a compromise, Turbine could design the T3 encounters to be difficult even with a meter, virtually impossible without. But what should the loot be for these encounters?
If T3 does give enough extra loot to be worthwhile above T2, those without the meter would be receiving less loot for a fight of the same effective difficulty. But with no extra loot for T3 (or only a slight percentage increase), there would be virtually no incentive to run the more difficult instance (much like T3 skirmishes are today).
Also, there's the issue of groups requiring the addon to join a group. I've already seen this happen with buffbars, and that's for an addon that shows absolutely nothing that an observant player can't figure out on their own. I can't imagine that these raid leaders would be any more lenient about a plugin that shows otherwise unobtainable info that is vital to the survival of the group.
I've seen other companies with larger dev teams than Turbine try, and fail, to rectify these issues. Without a complete revamp of every fellowship/raid boss in the game, as well as a revamp of how loot is awarded, I can't imagine that Turbine would do a better job.
Do you seriously intend for people to drive without speedometers because they should "learn to drive" and "get a feel"?
Plenty of people teach their kids to drive with a manual transmission, so that they get a better feel for the car. And yes, some do learn to ignore the speedometer, which leaves far more time to pay attention to your surroundings, and saves them from a ticket if they drive a car with a broken/miscalibrated speedometer.
Gotta love WoW-players. Leaving WoW because it sucks and trying to make their new MMO more like WoW because they can't understand the fact that a class is so much more than maxing something.
Threat meters: Target of target is sufficient. If it's you and you're not supposed to tank it, then you have to back down. If it's on the tank, feel free to dps.
DPS meters: A personal one to see how well you do is fine, but again, group-wide ones are rubbish. You should always max yours without pulling from the tank. A meter has zero effect on that so having one is irrelevant.
Healing meters: If your morale is at least 1, it's fine.
The lack of such group-wide meters is a blessing, as it encourages alternative playstiles. If you have an e-peen tank maxing his threat to top the meters, he's sacrificing his defences. A tank that can only taunt but not mitigate and avoid, is useless. A DPS-er that can only DPS and not manage his threat, is useless. A healer that maxes heals but cannot take any AoE or distributed damage, is useless.
In short, it's not a case of meters, it's simply a case of learn to play. People managed before WoW, they should be able to after WoW. If they can't, it's not a loss to any community.
In the space between worlds, thinking, exploring, learning, dreaming, creating and always passing on
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Re: dmg/dps + threat meters
It would not "help" new players. It would -Prevent- new players from learning in most cases. Find a WoW vet who has played their entire game with a threat and damage meter on their Hud, which they have watched intently in all ofhteir grouping experience, andthen take those away from them and get them to run some new content... what how much they trip over htir own feet trying to function... you'll find them in two categories... those who are cripplingly afraid of doing anyhtign without their threat meter to tell them the impact, who thusly reduce themselves to virtually dead weight, and otehrs who swing the other way and don't have a clue how to modulate properly, and pull again, and again, and again.
I know a friend who actually -DID- this as an experiment to prove a point amongst the members of his guild, who were all considered top tier raiders at the time.
Having threat meters in particular encourages lazy play and generally inhibits players from learning how to modulate themselves.
Originally Posted by Zephyriat
I agree that a threat meter is sorely needed. Playing a hunter I know how easy it is to overaggro and there really needs to be a way to see how close you are to the tank on threat.
I disagree, threat meters are distinctly not needed. Playing a hunter, I know how not to over-agro, becuase I've developed a good sense for the shift and movement of agro tables between myself and the tank that I've got one eye on, to see how their skill rotations are going.
If you're a hutner who can muster dcently good output for a hunter, then yes, going full bore it is exceptionally easy to overstep the threat threshold and pull when you're not supposed to. That's called being a Bad Hunter, and you should stop it. One of the jobs you have to take care of as a hunter is knowing how to modulate your out put to ride right up agaisnt the threat line of your tank wihtout ever stepping voer it. Good hunters can do that exceptionally well without the need for threat meters, and it's a skill worth learning.
Originally Posted by Micaa
if you dont want to use it you dont have to install it, but it would be nice to see peoples output for tier 2 stuff so you know who your "A" team is, you should always want to bring in your best players that put out the most hps and dps/overall dmg, and that can be controlled through a threat meter...also this game has sucked in ALOT of ex-wow players in or other players from other mmos which do offer these types of addons, the dwindling core people that started playing this game who had never seen a mmo before and played this game just because of the brand name are probably less then 1/2 the people that play now and in end game guild even fewer, so even tho the old school lotro people may not like change to the game turbine likes money more, so give us more addon capabilities plz
Micca, breathe. You're going to pass out.
Secondly, Not everyone thinks like that. Not everyone is a Min/Maxer, and not everyone feels the need to seperate their friends into "a-team" and "lessers". Most good players can control themselves, and do so reliably, without need for a threat meter to do it for them.
Third, Has this game brought in alot of Ex-woWers? Great. They should play THIS game, and not try to turn it into WoW.
Last of all, you're asking for threat gaugers and dps meters taht display readouts for everyone involved. You can say "if you don't like it don't use it" but that's not true: You want to see a readout of My numbers alongside yours... and I don't give my permission for that. There currently IS a dps-parser that the game supports, but it serves the job that a DPS meter is supposed to, namely allowing an individual to optimise themself, and requires the consent of other players who must also install the plug and set it up to talk to each other. Only a small crowd of users actively use it in that manner.
As a question, Zheng... how exactly would you explain how haivng an active threat meter would make, say, F&F doable? It's currently a mathematical impossibility due to the Grims having three times the morale they're supposed to, and even a group fully kitted out in FAs and going full bore at it can't do the damage required in the time space... threat is not an issue in that fight on T2 becuase your dps -Must- be going full bore regardless. More or less the same with Saruman T2... your DPS -Must- be going all out, all the time.. a threat meter would be more or less superfluous.
As with Wh, Yes... I expect that people at the very least -Should- be Able to drive safely without speedos... and they have proven for the past five years that they can.
Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain. Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again. And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.
I disagree, threat meters are distinctly not needed. Playing a hunter, I know how not to over-agro, becuase I've developed a good sense for the shift and movement of agro tables between myself and the tank that I've got one eye on, to see how their skill rotations are going.
If you're a hutner who can muster dcently good output for a hunter, then yes, going full bore it is exceptionally easy to overstep the threat threshold and pull when you're not supposed to. That's called being a Bad Hunter, and you should stop it. One of the jobs you have to take care of as a hunter is knowing how to modulate your out put to ride right up agaisnt the threat line of your tank wihtout ever stepping voer it. Good hunters can do that exceptionally well without the need for threat meters, and it's a skill worth learning.
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This is the point that I am trying to make. You learn to play by observing your surroundings. A meter is a crutch.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
As with Wh, Yes... I expect that people at the very least -Should- be Able to drive safely without speedos... and they have proven for the past five years that they can.
Rubbish. If you have no speedometer you have to floor it to get the max out of the engine, otherwise you're just being an awful driver and should be booted from traffic for holding up the flow.
It's not merely the *potential* for abuse. It's that no matter how "mature" a community thinks it is, people WILL abuse the ability to rate someone. Abuse that is based solely on what your position on a meter (that tends to give different results depending on whose meter one is reading) without regard to why that person wasn't "doing as much damage as they could." If you really want to know who your "A team" is based solely on damage (an idiots path in my book that overlooks the key abilities to adapt and work with others) then get Combat Analysis. Sure it won't tell you how much that PUG who hasn't loaded it is doing but that isn't your business anyway. For all you know maybe the reason they're holding back on damage is because they know the tank sucks, their other experiences with your kin are all bad, and they're expecting to be yelled at if they pull aggro even doing 50% of what they could.
Frankly I never understood the obsession people had with damage meters anyway. As long as the monster is dead, any special objectives the GROUP agreed to are completed, no one died an avoidable death not due to their own stupidity, and abnormal amounts of consumables weren't devoured, does it really matter who is "top damage"? This isn't the days of Everquest or Lineage 2 where he who did the most damage to a raid boss got the drops when two raids clashed.
As for threat meters... pfft. In WoW they became essential because the developers designed encounters on the assumption of their use so certain fights were on a hair-trigger. If you think what raid bosses do to non-tanks who catch an occasional hit now is bad, just imagine what would happen if the developers could say "well since people can see their threat we don't need to assume that non-tanks might get hit by the raid boss so we can pump their damage through the roof". I'm seeing a lot of "oops 15k after mitigation hit on captain who had a critical hit when the tank died or missed a move" in that situation. Basically every raid would needing extra tanks simply because if went down there would be no time to attempt a combat-revive when the raid boss is one-shooting all the non-tanks. Sure it might be good if you're a low-skill bad-reputation tank whose only "talent" is hitting force taunts until the main tank is revived and rebuffed, but for everyone else it would stink. And I'll let you in on a little secret - when a class hold groups hostage to that type of mechanic it has a tendency to result in an ugly backlash. Ask the clerics in EQ who used to refuse to heal in groups unless they got all the gems just what happened to their spots in groups when druids and shamans got decent healing.
I like that lotro doesn't make the numbers easy to get at. I like the mystery and excitement of the randomness caused by not monitoring a bunch of numbers. It keeps you on your toes and makes you pay attention to what's going on. If you wanna look at numbers you might as well ditch all the pretty graphics and animations, learn binary, and watch a string of zero's and one's. I almost wish more numbers were hidden from us.
P.S. - Why is Combat Analysis not considered a DPS meter? I've used it and besides tracking various combat events, it seems to be just that, a dps meter. I assume it's based on the combat log info, which isn't very accurate from what I understand, is this why it's not thought of as a dps meter?
I like that lotro doesn't make the numbers easy to get at. I like the mystery and excitement of the randomness caused by not monitoring a bunch of numbers. It keeps you on your toes and makes you pay attention to what's going on. If you wanna look at numbers you might as well ditch all the pretty graphics and animations, learn binary, and watch a string of zero's and one's. I almost wish more numbers were hidden from us.
P.S. - Why is Combat Analysis not considered a DPS meter? I've used it and besides tracking various combat events, it seems to be just that, a dps meter. I assume it's based on the combat log info, which isn't very accurate from what I understand, is this why it's not thought of as a dps meter?
Combat Analysis doesn't seem to count because it only takes your own numbers. The meters some people want are those that show them the numbers from the entire fellowship or raid. They want a game where it's forbidden for a minstrel to play a buff because it affects their heals per second, where it's forbidden for a hunter to remove a poison (whehe, as if they do that) or the tank buffs his mitigations/avoidances instead of shouting more.
It's a pity they desire shallow gameplay with a strong sense of tunnelvision.
Combat Analysis doesn't seem to count because it only takes your own numbers. The meters some people want are those that show them the numbers from the entire fellowship or raid. They want a game where it's forbidden for a minstrel to play a buff because it affects their heals per second, where it's forbidden for a hunter to remove a poison (whehe, as if they do that) or the tank buffs his mitigations/avoidances instead of shouting more.
It's a pity they desire shallow gameplay with a strong sense of tunnelvision.
Yea, I played WoW, where recount(meter) decides if you get invited to the next raid. That's if you had the gearscore(another elitist-promoting addon) to get into the first one. I want that mini to buff up or the hunter to remove poisons. Public meters promote a selfish playstyle, max your numbers at the cost of whatever might be better for the group as a whole.
if you dont want to use it you dont have to install it, but it would be nice to see peoples output for tier 2 stuff so you know who your "A" team is, you should always want to bring in your best players that put out the most hps and dps/overall dmg, and that can be controlled through a threat meter...also this game has sucked in ALOT of ex-wow players in or other players from other mmos which do offer these types of addons, the dwindling core people that started playing this game who had never seen a mmo before and played this game just because of the brand name are probably less then 1/2 the people that play now and in end game guild even fewer, so even tho the old school lotro people may not like change to the game turbine likes money more, so give us more addon capabilities plz
And that sums up precisely why people do not want to see this here.
And that sums up precisely why people do not want to see this here.
Exactly. There's no need for "A-Teams" in LotRO, there has never been. If you want to play a game where the so called "hardcore players" drool over doing 0.1DPS more than the second player on the list and where your screen is forced to be full of nothing but meters and plugin UI's, with a big flashing text telling you to "use skill X now!" to even get a spot in a raid, go play WoW. Maybe that's more fitting game for the OP and others who want threat meters.
And that first chapter isn't even too harshly exaggerated considering what I've heard about some "hardcore guilds" in that game. I stopped playing that game largely for those reasons; if you just wanted to have fun in your free time, there was no place in any raid whatsoever. Most guilds forced you to install various plugins - and screamed if your dps wasn't up to their "standards". Even so called newbie-friendly guilds did this.
In LotRO, you can monitor your own dps or hps (healing per second). I do that. Whatever dps others do, I don't care - that's not my business. My business is to do as much dps as possible without getting aggro, or keep the group alive without getting aggro if I'm playing as a healer. That doesn't need threat meters; rough knowledge of threat levels, which is perfectly enough in LotRO, comes through learning your own class and learning enough about how other classes work in groups, within their different roles.
There's absolutely no need for knowing exact values. You'll know when you've done too much - that's when the mobs come at you instead of continuing to beat the tank - and that's from where players should learn a thing or two. Pulling a mob or two isn't usually a disaster anyway; most classes have "oh bleep" -skills or aggro dumps. Use them and go a little slower next time.
In short: No thanks. This is a wrong game for threat meters - just like it would be a wrong game for hunters to have pets.
Originally Posted by EvilTreerat
It's that no matter how "mature" a community thinks it is, people WILL abuse the ability to rate someone.
This is very true. Also, the truth is, that people don't even need meters to rate people - but with the meters, this "abuse of ability to rate someone" would be daily business.
I don't generally PUG, but sometimes I've sent a tell to a typical PUG leader looking for a healer to fill the last spot in his group. They look at my gear, see it's only 4 cheap pieces of the class set from Glatrev, mainly barter or crafted jewellery, third age legendaries - and say "no thanks, your gear stinks".
Which is interesting. With the gear I have on, my outgoing healing is capped to 50%. I have 7.2k morale and 8.5k power, which is pretty good compared to many other minstrels I've seen out there in instances. I've seen some minstrels wondering how on earth can I do 5.5k crit bolsters, why is that Soliloquy of Spirit critting nearly 600 on the trigger-happy hunter I decided to help out a bit when he pulled aggros? Being able to rate other players comes through experience - looking at the background colours of gear or what set they're of is nowhere near enough.
If someone offers me advice, that's all fine, but saying "no thanks, your gear stinks" to a healer whose tactical mastery is high enough to have the healing output capped just... stinks. Such group leaders just do not deserve to be helped out anyway. I'll stick with those who know a thing or two more.
No, that's no elitism. It's about having fun in my free time. I'll rather play with people who know what having fun means, instead of those who think that fun means being told you stink even if you're capped.
Last edited by Elaida; Apr 29 2012 at 05:04 AM.
Reason: Added the reply to EvilTreerat
Leader of Freelancer, Eldar
Kinship founded at 22th September 2007. We're always looking for good fellows to join our little nuthouse. Click here!
Also, the truth is, that people don't even need meters to rate people - but with the meters, this "abuse of ability to rate someone" would be daily business.
Exactly. As a burg, I can often contribute more to the group by doing debuffs rather than DPS, depending on how long the fight is.
For boss fights, focusing mainly on debuffs, I do acceptable damage myself, and I can put a total effective rate of +15% incoming damage on the mob. For high-morale raid bosses, +15% damage for all 12/24 players in the group is a LOT of damage.
If I re-trait for DPS, and leave the debuffs out of my skill rotation, I can at least double my DPS, but I contribute little else. Essentially, I become little more than a single-target champion.
To any experienced raid leader, it should be obvious which of these two approaches is better for the group as a whole. Unfortunately, when people focus on the raw numbers, all they would see is higher numbers for themselves, and lower numbers from me. At that point, it doesn't matter that my debuffs shaved several minutes off of each boss, it doesn't matter that my on-demand FMs saved us from certain death several times, all they would see is that my DPS was lower than theirs, therefore I'm the noob.
Even without using plugins to show this, I have twice been yelled at by a raid leaders with a low-level burg alts because I was casting debuffs when I "should be doing DPS". I really can't imagine that a threat/DPS meter would do much to curb this type of behavior.
Even without using plugins to show this, I have twice been yelled at by a raid leaders with a low-level burg alts because I was casting debuffs when I "should be doing DPS". I really can't imagine that a threat/DPS meter would do much to curb this type of behavior.
That kinda makes me wonder why they accepted a burg after all, if all they wanted was dps. It doesn't make sense - hunter, champ or rk would have been better choices for pure dps, I'd say...
I have a level 75 burglar myself as well, but I don't group with him; it's my solo toon. He's geared and traited for pure dps, with almost no in-combat regens. He's very "cheaply" built toon, but still rocks against open-world mobs or in T1 solo skirmishes, which is what I generally do with him.
If the fights are any longer than in those environments, he's out of power very quickly - and that's exactly why I don't group with him. Non-combat food does miracles for soloing, so I have absolutely no need for improving regens based on the way I play that burg. You can only imagine how much that kind of character would be yelled at in a raid, if there were meters.
I've been asked to join instances on the burg though, as someone inspected me and most likely decided that I'd probably do a lot of dps. I politely refused and told him I only solo with him and that I would be useless in a group after the first 30 seconds of a fight due to running out of power. He went very close to calling me both a noob and an idiot. Go figure...
Leader of Freelancer, Eldar
Kinship founded at 22th September 2007. We're always looking for good fellows to join our little nuthouse. Click here!
I don't understand. How can people stand there and say that threat meters are a bad idea? The amount of opposition I read here is mind-boggling. And some people are even arrogant enough to claim that it is not a wanted feature in the Lotro community!
If you're going to have any hope of learning how to play your class in group instances and raids, then you have to know how much threat your abilities generate. It's not the kind of thing you leave to chance!
Can you imagine what World of Warcraft had been like if there had been no Omen addon? Seriously, in WoW end-game content there are many examples where overaggroing can easily lead to a wipe, and if you don't have where you are on the threat table then you can't maximize your dps. And that means you ruin the progress of not just yourself, but 24 other people.
Threat meters are an essential part of an MMO, and you DO NOT learn how to play the game by "getting a feel for things" without any visual aids. Overaggroing is annoying and it's unnecessary, and furthermore it's impossible for you to know how much you can dps when you have no idea how much the tank is generating.
It's essential to know the exact threat values when we're grouping, and I cannot comprehend how anyone can possibly claim something different.
As a DPSer, the game already gives me all the data I need without meters:
Threat meter: Do damage, do more damage, do even more damage. If the mob peels off from the group and makes a bee line for me stop and reduce damage. If it doesn't, keep at it.
DPS output: Did I kill the mob before it killed me? If yes, mission accomplished. If no, rethink strategy.
"Away from here.
To walk a howling sea lane"- Duran Duran
If you're going to have any hope of learning how to play your class in group instances and raids, then you have to know how much threat your abilities generate. It's not the kind of thing you leave to chance!
Read the posts again. It's it not left to chance - it's a process of learning how much you can do without getting aggro. If there's a guardian tanking, you can learn how much dps you can put out without getting aggro. If there's a warden tanking, it's a bit different amount, and you need to adapt into whatever group build you have around you.
Keep your eyes open and you will learn. If you don't, try again. Ask for advice. You will learn. And when you learn, it's not left to chance; it's a skill that every player will have after a bit of practice, if they are even willing to learn how to play their class.
If you pull aggro away from the tank, either you are doing too much threat or the tank is not doing enough to keep the mobs at himself against your dps. Either way, you need to adapt; slow down your dps a bit, and all goes well. You do not need any kind of meters for that.
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As a DPSer, the game already gives me all the data I need without meters: Threat meter: Do damage, do more damage, do even more damage. If the mob peels off from the group and makes a bee line for me stop and reduce damage. If it doesn't, keep at it. DPS output: Did I kill the mob before it killed me? If yes, mission accomplished. If no, rethink strategy.
It's already too late. Mob you peeled killed you in two hits. Or it was reaggroed by tank, but in the process of turning him around, healer was killed via AoE. Or mob was moved away from specific spot. Or tank had to use emergency skills and few moments after, when they were *really* needed, group wiped. Or mob had ranged attack w/ AoE damage - and you were standing in the middle of a squishy group. :P
Yes, all of this can happen if random skill is randomly resisted and you lack emergency skill - or such skill is ... lacking.
There is a lot of assumptions in this thread - and some of them are far too familiar.
Assumption that lack of threat meters is somehow preventing jerks from being jerks or fools from being fools. If someone insists on gating people, it will be done- be it via your character page, inspection, randomly selected stat - I remember someone trying to gather a group based on randomly selected Tactical Mastery & Finesse figures. It didn't matter there was no reliable way to verify other than a "feeling" or questionable judgement of leader afterwards. The point is - it happens anyway. If someone insists on doing this kind of selection, it's not our place to prohibit such activity - unless we start paying for another subscription. Mocking useless conditions in channels is still allowed though Not grouping with such people - still allowed. Staying in the company of like - minded people - still allowed.
Assumption that any sort of meter will suddenly bring awful tendencies typical for [insert name of the game or type of insecurity someone suffers from]. If people we know are suddenly going to transform into "meter griefers", then... wait, they are not transforming, it's who they are right now. But if it's not them we are worried about... then who? People we wouldn't group with anyway? Or hypocrites who "just wait for meters to show their true colors"?
Assumption that we can have a cake and we can eat it - in terms of "we have very nice people here" followed by "oh noes, if we get meters, bad people will rule in this game". Uh... so which one is true, can't have a majority that is both nice & mature AND jerks & elitists at the same time.
Personally - Combat Analysis gives me most of the info I need. I'd rather have Turbine adding some tweaks so there is another way to prevent aggro randomness, not just than self - nerfing or raiding with exclusively one - two tanks so we can predict every part of their rotation after a while.
But who knows, considering Turbine seems to be following Dilbert logic from time to time, meters might turn out to be cheaper than minor fixes. Or those minor fixes can introduce Saruman "going Draigoch" and render entrance into Prancing Pony unclickable.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Apr 29 2012 at 10:27 AM.
I´m interested to see how many people, who claim they don´t want to see DPS/Threat Meters have done ToO T2
Someone said, you should get a feeling for your threat. Sure, but how do I know how many of the Tanks shouts are resisted, and how many of his attacks BPEd? That makes it impossible for me to know how much aggro the Tank has
Assuming you have the Boss debuffed from 1-2 Burgs, 1-2 RKs, 1 Captain, 1 LM and Oathbreakers my EC devs for 17-20k
Tell me what to do if I don´t know if the Tank has more threat equivalent to 10k or 25k worth of damage?
Not use EC and gimp my (and therefore the whole raid´s) DPS? Use it and maybe pull aggro, ending with me, and possible 1 or 2 other group members dead for the tank gets the boss back?
And concerning DPS Meter:
I wouldn´t have problems with it, but I don´t invite people just because of numbers anyway. No matter how high their EC/Heartseeker/... is. When doing endgame raids, I´m always looking for non anonymous people only, because their LIs show a lot about how they understood their Class
When I see Minstrels with Lvl 75 1st Age DPS books or RKs with mixed LIs with both damage and healing Legacies, my only answer will be "No thanks", because those people clearly showed they don´t understand their class at all
Players are judged by other players (especially raid leaders) anyway. I´d rather have a fair judging system. Not to say DPS Meter is fair, it has it´s flaws, as it only records DPS, not buffs etc.
Still I think it would be better than no system and judging just based on gear (which is very subjective btw.)
And concerning Gear Score. We have that already, well not so obvious with numerical values, but:
LIs: 1st Age>2nd Age>3rd Age
Armor: Orthanc (teal)>U6 Ettenmoors>Draigoch/Orthanc (purple)>Crafted/Instance Drops etc. (with some exceptions where some set bonuses are too great to miss them on EM/Draigoch Sets)
Jewelry: Limlight/Orthanc T2>Skirmish/Orthanc T1>Crafted
There is already a clear gear progression that makes a players current level really obvious.
It's essential to know the exact threat values when we're grouping.
This statement is self-evidently wrong. Groups have been doing all sorts of group content for 5 years here without the EZ button supplied by precise threat meters, and that means that Turbine doesn't need to design content that's only completable by people using the EZ button. Obviously, a lot of people here prefer it this way.
This statement is self-evidently wrong. Groups have been doing all sorts of group content for 5 years here without the EZ button supplied by precise threat meters, and that means that Turbine doesn't need to design content that's only completable by people using the EZ button. Obviously, a lot of people here prefer it this way.
Khafar
As usual, you're right. Trouble is that some people WANT such content and are going to pester the forums till they get it, which they will not ....
I keep saying and saying, one player's "Challenging!" is another player's "bleeping adjectival impossible."
"Forced" is not a particularly pleasing word to many players, and the very last thing LOTRO needs is more reasons for people to avoid groups, for inexperienced groupers to be shunned, etc.
Khafar
This is exactly my thoughts. Sorry. No. I have played WoW since it's launch and it's just not needed here. People become too focused on the meters and not focused enough on what's going on around them. It makes for lazy, forumulaic grouping. also the same people in a kin tend to group over and over and you really miss out on the people that may bring some fun and interesting things to a group. So no. Not signed.
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Originally Posted by whheydt
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Not grouping with such people - still allowed. Staying in the company of like - minded people - still allowed.
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