Thread: Fri 4/27/12 PVP

Originally Posted by Tumgruk

Such is the fate of landy, warg packs are about as useless as my fingernail. You might pick off one or two in the back but once the raid realizes there it is a wargpack it is free renown.


But, like you said, play what you have fun with.


I would much prefer if creeps started playing reavers or warleaders or other raid classes that can contribute to raids, rather than playing the squishy, coward wargs.

I hear people say Warg packs are useless a lot...that's simply incorrect. The main problem with Warg packs on Landy is that they are not working with the rest of the creeps in zone. In large fights, especially keep fights, a warg pack and solo wargs should generally be preventing any type of rez circle returns. Eventually kills/rez returns can reach critical mass and overwhelm the warg's ability to stop them. Once that happens info should be communicated back to the main group(s) and steps can be taken to intercept those returners with other creepy assets. Wargs in general are being misused in larger fights. Pure clued me into various aspects of the new warg builds that make SOME of the healing inbalance potentially manageable.

When we xferred to this server, we brought up the fact that we used an E-Creep Vent server (now teamspeak i think), and thought it would be a good idea here. The upsides from a coordination standpoint are massive. The downsides are significant as well (more uncessary callouts, tons of management to "try" to prevent spies). Landy responded to the serverwide Vent with a resounding "NO", "Metagamers!", "Blah blah blah.". Fact is, I'd be more than happy to pay for a server myself and make it available to creeps, but without participation the tool is useless.

Originally Posted by Tumgruk

You can argue all you want Mr. Snuffleufagus (edit: this is a cutesy term and by no means derogatory) , but you can't dispute the fact that the creeps will never fight an even battle.

Just wanted to point out, it's snuffleupagus. Also, your statements are so ridiculously wrong in almost every instance it's laughable.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

It actually looks to me like a creep is holding the relic, which would mean they couldn't use any induction skills...so they wouldn't be adding much to that fight.

I don't think this says as much about a healing imbalance as it does a major faction imbalance, and the skills available to freeps to get them out of a tight spot, while keeping each other alive, are just greater than creep skills - especially once the few and lesser creep skills have been used (bubble, MT, etc.). A minstrel in this set-up, would have been a hindrance in terms of healing, BTW.

The screenshot also doesn't show much about the volume of creep casualties. The freeps would have had to be all working on keeping the RK healer up, rather than burning down anything other than probably a few squishy wargs or spiders, who wouldn't get priority heals. So what does the screenshot really say? That fewer freeps can hold off a raid of creeps for a short time and then wipe once their CDs are down; probably taking only a few with them. Probably.

That said, the opposite is also true. Small groups of creeps can wipe larger numbers of average freeps if they're coordinated and ranked. Most freeps are so used to just raiding on our server that they would have NO idea how to do this. What's shown in the screenie is unusual and not the norm - particularly of the average Landy Moors player. But yes, it *can* be done with the right classes and right players - but ONLY if the creeps are missing something obvious (like at least two rounds of multiple silences, disarms, and warg roots, which bypass brands, SI and anything else, to burn down the RK quickly before it can further attune - assuming captain bubble for the first round of focus fire on the RK).

EDIT - there are also at least 2 RKs healing...you can clearly see 2 WoH on the RK that is focused.

Jaiyne, you have to admit that freep healing is out of balance at the moment. Correct?

BTW Luc, sometimes you use the term Metagaming in a context that makes sense to me, ie. Vent server. Othertimes you use it in ways that makes me think you mean something else. I think it means using an external tool or resource to gain advantage within the game.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

This implies a small group of 6-7 creeps wiping a full freep raid.

There was a post and video of just that.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Reavers with infinate self bubbles.

I'm assuming you're talking about champs...and our bubbles are NOT infinite. Nor are they really much more than compensation for the reduced morale pools relative to creeps.

I have 7k morale. A reaver has what? 10? 12?

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

BAs able to VT up to 10k.

Again, look at the morale pools.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Single Defiler able to outheal a full fraid focus fire.

That is a MAD fail creep raid if you can't focus fire more than one freep healer

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Weavers with infinate CC chain skills. WL with 6 secs Rallying Cry ect ect....

I haven't seen anyone, freep or creep chain CCd infinitely for years. In fact I'd love to see proof if this is possible. The worst chaining of CC in recent memory seems to be wargs who know how to work their knockdowns, but I think even that was fixed.

You may have a point, in fact I know you have a point in some ways. But citing untruths and speaking in hyperbole doesn't help make your point.

Talk in REAL terms not exagerations and your argument will be stronger.

Healing is borked right now, not just between creeps and freeps but in general. A well played warleader can completely outheal me forever. A properly traited Defiler cannot be stopped if they decide to run from GV all the way to Grams from one champ. NPCs are inconsequential to both sides. Heck, in FERVOUR I solo'd my way up to the second floor (killing ALL NPCS on the way) of Lugs the other night. That's just not right.

There are in fact issues. But if we really want change we need to stop the extremist views and start talking about reality.

Originally Posted by Moofer

BTW Luc, sometimes you use the term Metagaming in a context that makes sense to me, ie. Vent server. Othertimes you use it in ways that makes me think you mean something else. I think it means using an external tool or resource to gain advantage within the game.

I don't even see Vent as metagaming, assuming you're talking about using vent for ONE side and not both sides...both sides and absolutely that's metagaming.

I see metagaming as playing the game in an unintended way to heighten one's rewards and/or reduce one's risk.

The game clearly intends upon creeps to fight freeps and freeps to fight creeps and in the cases of not being able to win at least trying to survive and not alow the other side the kill.

When players take actions to NOT kill the other side to allow for some other gain, or when players take actions to NOT support their side to allow for some other gain that IMHO is metagaming.

The "Dont flip Lugs or we won't be able to farm creeps the rest of the night.
The "We don't need to flip Lugs because we get our reward just for killign the tyrant"
The "I'm not going to fight that freep I'm following in stealth until my call-out force gets here so there's 0% chance of him getting away or killing me".
The "I'm not leaving the steps of GV until I'm in the biggest group on the map."
The whole fightclub mess.
The "I'm going to use stealth/burrow to engage forces smaller than ours, but EVADE forces equal to or greater than ours---BUT I expect to be fully balanced 1:1 when I do engage"

These types of gameplay decisions are metagaming in my opinion. And they're bad for gameplay because they throw out the basic assumptions that the game designers made when they developed the game. If we throw that out then we wreck their game, and make it even more challenging to design in the future.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Jaiyne, you have to admit that freep healing is out of balance at the moment. Correct?

Freeps can heal more, yes. Not only do our primary classes pump out more but we have more classes capable of healing. It's just math.

I put most of my thoughts here on this issue. I think it's the wrong measure to focus on because it doesn't factor in the creep healers' ability to take/mitigate damage.

The bigger issue to me is creeps' burst damage abilities are far too limited. Fix burst DPS and you have a lot more parity. The only classes with decent burst are wargs (need to stealth to properly burst) and BAs, which require being left alone to do it. Reavers are pretty broken. They need a serious overhaul.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Freeps can heal more, yes. Not only do our primary classes pump out more but we have more classes capable of healing. It's just math.

I put most of my thoughts here on this issue. I think it's the wrong measure to focus on because it doesn't factor in the creep healers' ability to take/mitigate damage.

The bigger issue to me is creeps' burst damage abilities are far too limited. Fix burst DPS and you have a lot more parity. The only classes with decent burst are wargs (need to stealth to properly burst) and BAs, which require being left alone to do it. Reavers are pretty broken. They need a serious overhaul.

I agree with this. Reavers are underpowered in terms of damage AND in terms of AoE potential. Creeps need a melee AoE equivalent.

Healing is totally borked at the moment and is hard to even address without an overhaul to audacity.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Freeps can heal more, yes. Not only do our primary classes pump out more but we have more classes capable of healing. It's just math.

I put most of my thoughts here on this issue. I think it's the wrong measure to focus on because it doesn't factor in the creep healers' ability to take/mitigate damage.

The bigger issue to me is creeps' burst damage abilities are far too limited. Fix burst DPS and you have a lot more parity. The only classes with decent burst are wargs (need to stealth to properly burst) and BAs, which require being left alone to do it. Reavers are pretty broken. They need a serious overhaul.

Without a doubt the spread of healing classes freepside is one of the issues when comparing it to creeps. Once you bolster a Healing RK and Healing Mins with a Captain, it becomes a chewy problem. Toss in the Champ, Warden and Guard as support classes and you're left with the potential opportunity to burn down the unwary hunter, burg or LM.

I agree that burst damage is definately something that is missing creepside, but burst damage is really a component of base damage. Great, we burst down one Freep and sit there for several minutes with poor base damage going out.

Remember this past weekend when Pure and I fought you for nearly 10mins (twice)? In both cases you would have eventually killed both of us if some random 3rd creep didn't show up. Now, without a doubt a weaver or warg would have been paired better with Pure for that fight - Powerdrains, interruptions, silence..whatever, but Moof is a high ranked BA and he was basically left alone to pew you with the best/most damaging shot cycles he could come up with (btw not one Headshot stun landed that entire time). Granted that not all minstrels are as well played as yours is. But based on that fight, that's 2 creep classes that have no hope whatsoever of soloing a geared well played mins. Remember this was 2v1, and neither Pure or I are complete noobs or lacking key class skills.

Let's expand the fight to 3 people each. Add a defiler or DPS for the creeps and Capt/RK/Mins + one DPS to the fight...Creeps will eventually lose that fight nearly every time vs equally skilled players. They will lose because you just can't burn through the healing. The overall issue is raid level healing, once healing gets cross linked and then creeps start dying it's over.

The capt/mins/rk changes made it really hard to crack that nut. Okay fine, focus on the task of breaking that healing triad...all good as long as you're guaranteeing that the DPS are now uncovered from healing focus...but that's not the case anymore between Mins in group heal mode, Captain changes and the individual survivability of champs, wardens and guards.

For small group fights I believe that the WS changes were the most significant. Self heal output way too high. Stance switching without penalties...BAD. Raid level, captains may be the biggest issue with the overall bolstering (not the skill) to the raid healing situation.

In days past, getting the right # of creeps into a focus fire situation would result in kills before any healer could react. At this stage, that's difficult to do with the audacity reductions. Definately a different Book than any other, not necessarily more difficult...just a much different challenge.

About the Warg thing - we don't like camping rezzes so that's why we don't do it.

Not many of use out-of-game voice programs. I've had peeps ask for this before, and I've used them in the past - but sharing a channel with Freeps is bad.

If you have a need for the pack to do something - either send a tell to one of us, or merely put SWS - Target in OOC, and we'll respond as best we can. That was the purpose behind our founding

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Moofer

Remember this past weekend when Pure and I fought you for nearly 10mins (twice)? In both cases you would have eventually killed both of us if some random 3rd creep didn't show up. Now, without a doubt a weaver or warg would have been paired better with Pure for that fight - Powerdrains, interruptions, silence..whatever, but Moof is a high ranked BA and he was basically left alone to pew you with the best/most damaging shot cycles he could come up with (btw not one Headshot stun landed that entire time). Granted that not all minstrels are as well played as yours is. But based on that fight, that's 2 creep classes that have no hope whatsoever of soloing a geared well played mins. Remember this was 2v1, and neither Pure or I are complete noobs or lacking key class skills.

I was sort of imagining you guys were saying, "### is this chick doing!!!!!???" lol

I kept coming back because - and you may not have noticed this - but I switched out gear each time. I wanted to see what appreciable difference my gear had on those fights if any (first my PvP set and then my PvE Orthanc set). Now granted, ultimately I died each time - and I don't actually think I would have been able to kill either one of you because Pure can pretty much tank raids of freeps while keeping his friends alive.

As for healing, I used:

• Chord of Salvation (tried to keep it on CD - every 10 seconds).
• Anthem of the Free People --> Coda every so often for another small HoT (requires a 30 anthem CD and to be tiered up); not practical to use in burst fights.
• Cry of the Valar for AoE damage + small HoT
• Soliloquy of Spirit was always up

Never used a Raise the Spirit, or a Bolster Courage, which would have been more healing than I needed (which says something). You'll note that when I fight you on your spider or if I find you alone on Moof, I actually only use Cry of the Valar because it has a decent damage component.

But yeah, once you spent your VT it became a stalemate. And yeah, a Headshot knockdown would have been a game changer there. I sometimes QQ about knockdowns but I see they're necessary to take down self-healing classes in some situations.

I hope it was at least somewhat amusing and not super frustrating for you guys. I felt like they were good deaths for me to take given how dead it was over the weekend.

Originally Posted by Moofer

Once you bolster a Healing RK and Healing Mins with a Captain, it becomes a chewy problem.

Actually it's more of RK + LM specifically. A minstrel just can't do what an RK can, they don't have the tools. Give an RK stun immunity, fear dispels and wound clears and they can't be touched. The only way to shut them down is mass spam interrupt skills, even then they can just start using insta-cast skills and kite you. Sure a captain has two skills that largely decrease incoming damage, but an RK can survive just fine without one, so long as the SI and dispels are there.

Really the most I add is the power sustain, RKs have enough of their own bubbles/incoming damage modifiers to survive. I just take their 30ish seconds of damage immunity and add another minute.

Oh yeah and creeps should always be running with at least 1 reaver. They are the only class that I as a healer need to watch out for. If only because of dev strike, creeps can't complain that they are unable to take out healers if they aren't using the counters to them, wargs+defilers are also effective. But then most people are zergonaughts here that just want to spam abilities and make easy kills so I don't expect anyone to do anything than just that.

Also WvW in GW2 is just an moors 2.0 as I predicted. It WILL be gear dependent and it WILL come down to greater numbers. The only part of that game that is remotely interesting is the Structured pvp which I am enjoying immensely. Even though it's just a derpfest of random pugs. Support classes feel powerful enough and damage classes can actually do damage. I don't like the fact that CC is utterly meaningless though. Most classes can become immune to it and most of it doesn't last longer that 4 seconds but it is still just beta. It also has a very FPS feel to it, which I don't know how to feel about.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

Actually it's more of RK + LM specifically. A minstrel just can't do what an RK can, they don't have the tools. Give an RK stun immunity, fear dispels and wound clears and they can't be touched. The only way to shut them down is mass spam interrupt skills, even then they can just start using insta-cast skills and kite you. Sure a captain has two skills that largely decrease incoming damage, but an RK can survive just fine without one, so long as the SI and dispels are there.

And some people call this good pvp, you openly amit that it is a broken function as the outcome is pre determined, do a few things right and never lose, no matter the numbers? That's not good playing, that's appalling abuse.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

Also WvW in GW2 is just an moors 2.0 as I predicted. It WILL be gear dependent and it WILL come down to greater numbers. The only part of that game that is remotely interesting is the Structured pvp which I am enjoying immensely. Even though it's just a derpfest of random pugs. Support classes feel powerful enough and damage classes can actually do damage. I don't like the fact that CC is utterly meaningless though. Most classes can become immune to it and most of it doesn't last longer that 4 seconds but it is still just beta. It also has a very FPS feel to it, which I don't know how to feel about.

Moors 2.0 another heavy drug user here. Maybe DAOC 2.0. How much siege equipment is in the moors? How many doors in the moors need to be broken down before rushing the keep? There is some zerging, yes, but if you can counter that by taking everything behind the zerg as well as hitting the homeworld of said zerg, they break up rather quickly. We rolled around with between 4 and 12 most of the weekend causing havoc and having a damn fun time doing it.

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

About the Warg thing - we don't like camping rezzes so that's why we don't do it.

Not many of use out-of-game voice programs. I've had peeps ask for this before, and I've used them in the past - but sharing a channel with Freeps is bad.

If you have a need for the pack to do something - either send a tell to one of us, or merely put SWS - Target in OOC, and we'll respond as best we can. That was the purpose behind our founding

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

No no, not sharing a channel with freeps. Just a creep vent server.

It's not rez camping in the classic sense. Although I don't really see MUCH of a difference between 6 warg nomming someone at TR HS vs 60 meters outside the rez.

Also i'm not talking about reactive type of thing Hith. I'm talking about a global (creep global) set of tactical actions by raid, single or small groups to support an overall strategic goal. I'm not saying you camp just outside a rez circle, but in a TA fight wargs should definately be covering Sgt Ramp and Stab (or Wtab, bogs and landbridge depending on where rez is). Mapbacks have always been one of the freeps complaints about creeps. A constant flow of rez returns amounts to the same thing on our side

It comes down to the difference between a bunch of individuals doing their own thing vs. a bunch of individuals united in a common goal and supporting each other in a way of their choosing. Unfortunately the Chat system is a poor vehicle to keep everyone informed in a timely manner. Large fight going on at TA? Don't want to be in it? Support it somehow. I'm always amazed at the # of freeps that get back inside keeps when we're taking them.

We don't necessarily have to raid up to be successful contrary to what Danuf says. Solos and small groups and raids can all be successful working alongside eachother as long as there is a cohesive set of actions in support of a common goal.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I was sort of imagining you guys were saying, "### is this chick doing!!!!!???" lol

I kept coming back because - and you may not have noticed this - but I switched out gear each time. I wanted to see what appreciable difference my gear had on those fights if any (first my PvP set and then my PvE Orthanc set). Now granted, ultimately I died each time - and I don't actually think I would have been able to kill either one of you because Pure can pretty much tank raids of freeps while keeping his friends alive.

As for healing, I used:

• Chord of Salvation (tried to keep it on CD - every 10 seconds).
• Anthem of the Free People --> Coda every so often for another small HoT (requires a 30 anthem CD and to be tiered up); not practical to use in burst fights.
• Cry of the Valar for AoE damage + small HoT
• Soliloquy of Spirit was always up

Never used a Raise the Spirit, or a Bolster Courage, which would have been more healing than I needed (which says something). You'll note that when I fight you on your spider or if I find you alone on Moof, I actually only use Anthem of the Valar because it has a decent damage component.

But yeah, once you spent your VT it became a stalemate. And yeah, a Headshot knockdown would have been a game changer there. I sometimes QQ about knockdowns but I see they're necessary to take down self-healing classes in some situations.

I hope it was at least somewhat amusing and not super frustrating for you guys. I felt like they were good deaths for me to take given how dead it was over the weekend.

No, we knew you were looking for some type of challenge, it wasn't confusing at all, simply frustrating. BTW, you would have killed Pure for sure, we were on Pot CD, big heal CD and he was at 5k health. Whether it was within that 3minutes or the next, you would have worn him down gotten him and then me. The warg and then then the other WL tipped the balance both times. To hear you weren't even using your major skills just makes me even more frustrated.

Yeah the KD might have been pivotal ...maybe. Was sitting on Headshot, VT, Tangle CDs to chain them together, but even with those you're still safe unless you start at half health or i get REALLY lucky on Devs.

And I do notice the skills you don't use when 1v1'ing, but that's actually support for my entire point...freep healing borked all out of proportion atm

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

Actually it's more of RK + LM specifically. A minstrel just can't do what an RK can, they don't have the tools. Give an RK stun immunity, fear dispels and wound clears and they can't be touched. The only way to shut them down is mass spam interrupt skills, even then they can just start using insta-cast skills and kite you. Sure a captain has two skills that largely decrease incoming damage, but an RK can survive just fine without one, so long as the SI and dispels are there.

Really the most I add is the power sustain, RKs have enough of their own bubbles/incoming damage modifiers to survive. I just take their 30ish seconds of damage immunity and add another minute.

Oh yeah and creeps should always be running with at least 1 reaver. They are the only class that I as a healer need to watch out for. If only because of dev strike, creeps can't complain that they are unable to take out healers if they aren't using the counters to them, wargs+defilers are also effective. But then most people are zergonaughts here that just want to spam abilities and make easy kills so I don't expect anyone to do anything than just that.

Also WvW in GW2 is just an moors 2.0 as I predicted. It WILL be gear dependent and it WILL come down to greater numbers. The only part of that game that is remotely interesting is the Structured pvp which I am enjoying immensely. Even though it's just a derpfest of random pugs. Support classes feel powerful enough and damage classes can actually do damage. I don't like the fact that CC is utterly meaningless though. Most classes can become immune to it and most of it doesn't last longer that 4 seconds but it is still just beta. It also has a very FPS feel to it, which I don't know how to feel about.

As a captain you increase their healing output and add a small amount of healing to bridge small gaps. Also act as an emergency buffer if someone is going down.

Really the reaver is kind of key due to the healing debuff they can apply, but it's a rough class for people to choose to play at this stage. Running around 10 meters behind a target for an entire fight can become frustrating.

Originally Posted by Moofer

And I do notice the skills you don't use when 1v1'ing, but that's actually support for my entire point...freep healing borked all out of proportion atm

It bothers me that it's up to the player to do the balancing for the damn developers.

Just another piece of data to throw this discussion into super complex mode. This is for the year 2012 on Landy and I think it's clear what is happening, the skirmisher/harrasser class is DOMINANT on creepside and it's skewing the amount of healing that's out there on creepside.

Let no one doubt Wargs are NOT DPS, they are a skirmisher force meant to harrass and disrupt. They cannot stand and dish out damage over prolonged fights. Similarly with Burgs, IMHO.

This MASSIVE prevalence of wargs leads to a pretty big discrepency creepside. Add in the fact that freepside has "secondary" healers as well as main line classes and things can get out of whack pretty fast. If even a QUARTER of the warg players were Defilers/WLs the entire shape of the moors with regard to group fighting would MASSIVELY change overnight.

Solo and extremely small group fighting is thrown out...there are too many variables to consider. But if you're looking at available healing and the types of classes as a factor, the issue becomes clear.

Class	Player Count	% of total	Total Infamy Earned	% of total
Burglar	381	13.92%	31,426,084	12.05%
Captain	232	8.47%	17,430,569	6.68%
Lore-master	301	10.99%	27,205,378	10.43%
Guardian	251	9.17%	24,772,945	9.50%
Hunter	681	24.87%	68,178,718	26.14%
Warden	82	2.99%	7,013,044	2.69%
Champion	318	11.61%	32,846,001	12.59%
Minstrel	308	11.25%	32,788,114	12.57%
Rune-keeper	184	6.72%	19,156,714	7.34%
Healer - Mini/RK		17.97%
DPS - Hunter/Champ		36.49%
Support/Heals - LM/Capt		19.47%
Tank - Guard/Ward		12.16%
Harrassment - Burg		13.92%
Total Heals - Main and Support		37.44%
Class	Player Count	% of total	Total Infamy Earned	% of total
Blackarrow	447	17.41%	43,028,523	19.97%
Defiler	246	9.58%	16,824,794	7.81%
Weaver	364	14.18%	29,695,339	13.78%
Stalker	825	32.14%	66,905,233	31.05%
Warleader	253	9.86%	18,422,795	8.55%
Reaver	432	16.83%	40,580,126	18.83%
Healer - Defiler/WL		19.44%
DPS - Reaver/BA		34.24%
Support - Bug		14.18%
Tank - NA
Harrassment -Warg		32.14%

Originally Posted by Thane9

. If even a QUARTER of the warg players were Defilers/WLs the entire shape of the moors with regard to group fighting would MASSIVELY change overnight.

I have a R6 WL I bring out in emergencies. I don't enjoy playing it at all, but I do it for the benefit of the group.

I play my warg, and I assume most of the other warg players do also - simply because it it so much FUN!

I don't care about the numbers - although your own figures suggest that there were 2738 freeps online total, and 2567 creeps total. Hard to tell how many individual players, and what the actual population ratio is at any given time - that, I believe, is the important bit.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

I have a R6 WL I bring out in emergencies. I don't enjoy playing it at all, but I do it for the benefit of the group.

I play my warg, and I assume most of the other warg players do also - simply because it it so much FUN!

I don't care about the numbers.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Agreed Hithy,

The tired old mantra of "too many wargs" wares on a body after a time. I play what I want, and those who do not like it can kiss my furry wargy muzzle.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

And some people call this good pvp, you openly omit that it is a broken function as the outcome is pre determined, do a few things right and never lose, no matter the numbers? That's not good playing, that's appalling abuse.

The outcome is not predetermined at all there are many ways of countering it. One of them is something you use every day. Simply crush us under the weight of overwhelming numbers, yeah you lose a few in the process, but it will work most of the time.

There are other ways too that I've seen used, and all it requires is a tiny amount of coordination outside of "everyone attack this guy".

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Moors 2.0 another heavy drug user here. Maybe DAOC 2.0. How much siege equipment is in the moors? How many doors in the moors need to be broken down before rushing the keep? There is some zerging, yes, but if you can counter that by taking everything behind the zerg as well as hitting the homeworld of said zerg, they break up rather quickly. We rolled around with between 4 and 12 most of the weekend causing havoc and having a damn fun time doing it.

A siege engine doesn't make it any different, there are still npc guards, there are still large zergs rolling around. Level cap hasn't been reached yet AFAIK and so people haven't been able to gear up, but once that happens they will just be able to roll over a bunch of nubs starting at level 1 with no skills on their skill bar.

The fact that you ran around with 12 people just furthers my point that zerging will be popular.

Originally Posted by Moofer

As a captain you increase their healing output and add a small amount of healing to bridge small gaps. Also act as an emergency buffer if someone is going down.

Really the reaver is kind of key due to the healing debuff they can apply, but it's a rough class for people to choose to play at this stage. Running around 10 meters behind a target for an entire fight can become frustrating.

Purely number wise I can output close to a defiler, but that's still less than an RK or Minstrel and I can't heal my self. The biggest contribution I make is my power restore and the people I regularly run with mention that it's what they missed the most if I'm not in the group.

My OGH buffs (and damage buffs for that matter) are for the most part not as effective as they suggest. Most are applied to mastery, which is additive to the base value of skills so it comes out at about 50% of what the tooltip says.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Let no one doubt Wargs are NOT DPS, they are a skirmisher force meant to harrass and disrupt. They cannot stand and dish out damage over prolonged fights. Similarly with Burgs, IMHO.

Wargs parse higher than BAs or Reavers, so the numbers say that you are wrong. They don't have any cooldowns to speak of (other than hips/sprint, only one of which has a small bearing on their dps) so by that account they are the highest sustained dps creepside. Reavers on the other hand don't have 100% uptime on their dots and their damage is pretty sad anyways. BA's are hindered by large cooldowns and huge power costs so nothing within creepside game mechanics support this claim.

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

Wargs parse higher than BAs or Reavers, so the numbers say that you are wrong. They don't have any cooldowns to speak of (other than hips/sprint, only one of which has a small bearing on their dps) so by that account they are the highest sustained dps creepside. Reavers on the other hand don't have 100% uptime on their dots and their damage is pretty sad anyways. BA's are hindered by large cooldowns and huge power costs so nothing within creepside game mechanics support this claim.

I would respectfully disagree. Some of our best offensive skills are on a cooldown.
Tendon Shred - our main knockdown, on a 5 minute cooldown.
Howl, our silence / disarm - 5 minute cooldown.
Snap - a disarm / silence and debuff - on a 1 minute cooldown.
Fleas - debuff, on a 45 second cooldown.

As for Disappear / Topple and Sprint - both 10 minute cooldowns but you can trait to reduce those. I don't.

Now - I am not complaining about the cooldowns. I love the warg. The thing is - even running in Flayer, I can barely hope to survive in a fight long enough to actually get round to using any of those skills when they come back from cooldown.

Wargs may put out a fair bit of damage, but a lot of it is negated by all the heals and mitigations. I've seen Guardians shrug off entire warg packs - but thats their job I guess.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

[QUOTE=TheBigMenace;6143587]

The fact that you ran around with 12 people just furthers my point that zerging will be popular.



QUOTE]

I said 4 to 12 people, not a zerg. The fact that you "Leet" players are hiding here on LOTRO with such awsome skills tells me one thing. You suck. You took one mechanice, broke it and hide behind it. Could not be a better example of fail players.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

I said 4 to 12 people, not a zerg. The fact that you "Leet" players are hiding here on LOTRO with such awsome skills tells me one thing. You suck. You took one mechanice, broke it and hide behind it. Could not be a better example of fail players.

LOl

Let's just break this guy down here:
-Complains when gets zerged
Solution -> zerg solo's and small groups

-Complains when zerg gets outplayed by small group
Solution -> claim they are exploiting/cheating/omgwtfbbqOP and actually lack skill

In truth, with the numbers you bring out, you should be having close to no trouble against 6 freeps. There are many occasions where creeps with less numbers than your zerg have won against much more freeps. Might I be inclined to show them to you, as it appears that you are in desperate need of some lessons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcjmKfiBE9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfW1T5joEQ0
Here we see a significantly lower amount of creeps taking on a significantly higher amount of freeps, and guess what? These freeps have LM's, Rk's, captains, and multitudes of them. The fact that 23 creeps led by you can't kill a mere 7 freeps can simply not be a better example of a fail player, as we can clearly see less creeps taking on much more freeps on other occasions. If you are still having trouble dealing with the healing combination of 2 freep classes when you have a zerg behind you it's just about time to uninstall, seriously with the amount of firepower a full raid of creeps has there is no way you shouldn't be able to shut them down. I already know of several ways you can do this but I won't bother spoiling it for you, I've already seen it done with a much smaller force of creeps.

btw If you need anymore lessons i give u for free, but first u must call me daddy and i let u win

in the meantime enjoy enjoy solozerging, i'm sure everyone enjoys a nice zerg once in a while.

Game set and match to Garny.

Baylife

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

LOl

Let's just break this guy down here:
-Complains when gets zerged
Solution -> zerg solo's and small groups

-Complains when zerg gets outplayed by small group
Solution -> claim they are exploiting/cheating/omgwtfbbqOP and actually lack skill

In truth, with the numbers you bring out, you should be having close to no trouble against 6 freeps. There are many occasions where creeps with less numbers than your zerg have won against much more freeps. Might I be inclined to show them to you, as it appears that you are in desperate need of some lessons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcjmKfiBE9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfW1T5joEQ0
Here we see a significantly lower amount of creeps taking on a significantly higher amount of freeps, and guess what? These freeps have LM's, Rk's, captains, and multitudes of them. The fact that 23 creeps led by you can't kill a mere 7 freeps can simply not be a better example of a fail player, as we can clearly see less creeps taking on much more freeps on other occasions. If you are still having trouble dealing with the healing combination of 2 freep classes when you have a zerg behind you it's just about time to uninstall, seriously with the amount of firepower a full raid of creeps has there is no way you shouldn't be able to shut them down. I already know of several ways you can do this but I won't bother spoiling it for you, I've already seen it done with a much smaller force of creeps.

btw If you need anymore lessons i give u for free, but first u must call me daddy and i let u win

in the meantime enjoy enjoy solozerging, i'm sure everyone enjoys a nice zerg once in a while.

Did I touch a nerve? My average group size is about 8. I could care less about what you have to say about me my tribe or anyone I group with. The fact remains, you play the overpowered side using a broken pve tactic. And you make attempts at calling it pvp. What, still mad that Worthy of Suck is gone? So please shove the soapbox up your azz.

Originally Posted by davilotr

btw if you need anymore lessons i give u for free, but first u must call me daddy and i let u win

hue!!!
Hue!!!
Hue!!!

Suckiness seems to be flavour of the month at the moment.

There's really no need for it peeps. Just maybe sit back, enjoy the game, and perhaps not take it all so seriously!

It's all about the fun!

Be fluffy to one another!

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

My average group size is about 15+.

fix'd it for you

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

The fact remains, you play the overpowered side using a broken pve tactic. And you make attempts at calling it pvp.

LOLWUT? Who uses healers to tank in PvE? U must be new here..

While I agree it is overpowered, it's nowhere near as broken as you make it out to be. If it was, there wouldn't be any way to counter it. And there is. Pvp is about outplaying your opponent and countering them. l2counter one healer and you won't find it nearly as bad.

Also if you think using your classes abilities to their full potential isn't pvp, then what does that make zerging?

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

What, still mad that Worthy of Suck is gone? So please shove the soapbox up your azz.

Relevance, this statement has none

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

It bothers me that it's up to the player to do the balancing for the damn developers.

Yep, and very very few people are willing to do this, and I /salute you for doing so. A defiler buddy and I have begun experimenting with using flies less, or in some cases not at all in pvp with pretty mixed results. It is tough to take a loss when I *know* if I had used a certain skill or two, I would have had it in the bag. However, I think it has brought some or the fun back into it for me.

Originally Posted by Fraegster

Yep, and very very few people are willing to do this, and I /salute you for doing so. A defiler buddy and I have begun experimenting with using flies less, or in some cases not at all in pvp with pretty mixed results. It is tough to take a loss when I *know* if I had used a certain skill or two, I would have had it in the bag. However, I think it has brought some or the fun back into it for me.

This is what I would do. Use them when you're losing and not when you're winning within a single fight.

That's what I do. I call it Planned Drawhood. It's beautiful. Nothing better than a sexy draw (albeit planned)...

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

Might I be inclined to show them to you, as it appears that you are in desperate need of some lessons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcjmKfiBE9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfW1T5joEQ0

Here we see a significantly lower amount of creeps taking on a significantly higher amount of freeps, and guess what? These freeps have LM's, Rk's, captains, and multitudes of them.

With all respect, nowhere on both those video theres a healing RK. I watched both closely and didnt saw any rune on the ground, but i may be mistaken. If so, please show me where in the video.

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

The fact that 23 creeps led by you can't kill a mere 7 freeps can simply not be a better example of a fail player, as we can clearly see less creeps taking on much more freeps on other occasions. If you are still having trouble dealing with the healing combination of 2 freep classes when you have a zerg behind you it's just about time to uninstall, seriously with the amount of firepower a full raid of creeps has there is no way you shouldn't be able to shut them down.

I was in that raid, 21 members strong, composed mainly of PP and Agony high rank, all seasoned Moors vets. I saw all members focusing fire when Plok was calling it. When one of the top healing RK on Landroval, Fatherdamien, say in those forums that he can in fact outheal an entire Creep raid DPS all by himself, i believe him. I teamed in the past with him and this guy is incredibly talented, so hes having huge credibility.

A top healing RK can pull out about 1800 HpS. Add a good captain offheal support and you are way north of 2500 HpS. This is huge. Even a full creep raid wont have a burst damage potentiel high enough to get throught this level of healing. This has nothing to do with players skills (or lack of), its simply improperly balanced game mechanisms.

Lets reverse the situation: me and a high rank WL are part of a small 6-7 creep group engaging a freep raid of 21. Theres simply no way, even in my wildest dreams, that i could keep up all my groupemates against full freeps DPS. Even left alone, in perfect healing conditions, i can pull out 800 HPS while a WL can do about 400. Thats 1200 HpS total. 2 or 3 freep DPS class can get throught this, easily.

Bottom line: Freep healing output is out of wack atm, particulary with RKs. Its pointless to deny this and insult your creep opponants with *learn to play noob* argument type. We didnt suddently forgot how to play properly overnight when RoI came out. Its the game mechanisms that have changed, not the players.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Did I touch a nerve? My average group size is about 8.

Dude, creeps may be underpowered but counting the number of groups rather than the players in each group is not how it works, sorry. When we do catch you with eight, you get rolled, then you disappear for a bit and come back with twice that number. Or you just don't come back at all, don't talk to us about good pvp, when your only strategy is try and dps someone down with superior numbers at your back.

There are numerous ways to counter an RK healer, I've seen them used and they work. Maybe, JUST MAYBE instead of QQing when you can't use a brute force approach and instead using strategies better players have come with will yield more success, just a thought.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

I could care less about what you have to say about me my tribe or anyone I group with.

This obviously isn't true, else-wise you wouldn't have said it.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

The fact remains, you play the overpowered side using a broken pve tactic. And you make attempts at calling it pvp. What, still mad that Worthy of Suck is gone? So please shove the soapbox up your azz.

I openly admit that freeps are more powerful than freeps, however getting wiped across the floor when it's 7v23 is 100% user error, and not game mechanics alone.

The mere fact that you declared that stun immunity was a permanent freep store brand exploit shows just how little understanding you have of this game. It's really funny that you get outplayed then declare us to be lacking in skill. Please tell us which broken pve mechanics we are using?

Also, which server do you play on? I'll be happy to jump on an opposing server and stomp you in the next game as well.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

I was in that raid, 21 members strong, composed mainly of PP and Agony high rank, all seasoned Moors vets. I saw all members focusing fire when Plok was calling it. When one of the top healing RK on Landroval, Fatherdamien, say in those forums that he can in fact outheal an entire Creep raid DPS all by himself, i believe him. I teamed in the past with him and this guy is incredibly talented, so hes having huge credibility.

A top healing RK can pull out about 1800 HpS. Add a good captain offheal support and you are way north of 2500 HpS. This is huge. Even a full creep raid wont have a burst damage potentiel high enough to get throught this level of healing. This has nothing to do with players skills (or lack of), its simply improperly balanced game mechanisms.

Lets reverse the situation: me and a high rank WL are part of a small 6-7 creep group engaging a freep raid of 21. Theres simply no way, even in my wildest dreams, that i could keep up all my groupemates against full freeps DPS. Even left alone, in perfect healing conditions, i can pull out 800 HPS while a WL can do about 400. Thats 1200 HpS total. 2 or 3 freep DPS class can get throught this, easily.

Bottom line: Freep healing output is out of wack atm, particulary with RKs. Its pointless to deny this and insult your creep opponants with *learn to play noob* argument type. We didnt suddently forgot how to play properly overnight when RoI came out. Its the game mechanisms that have changed, not the players.

So you are saying that a full creep raid can't pull 2500dps? Ok, lets see, on my R9 BA (who is full survivability with 15k of health btw), I can do 800 dps on a dummy. Now accounting for audacity, that should be around 560 dps on a light armour freep. So that means you need 4.5 BA's to negate an RK healer, take note that on a dummy I can't use Revenge, so there is a little more burst potential there that is unaccounted for.

Then there are wargs, who can also pull 800dps on a target with positional (which you will have, since a healer is stationary). This is in flayer stance, in shadow they can pull well over 1k dps, but I assume that most wargs run flayer so we will use this number. Additionally there are reavers, I'm not sure exactly how much dps they pull but I'll say 600 because they seem to have a low damage output. Now if you have a warleader and defiler in each group you have 17 spots open in a 23 man raid for dps. If you have even 6 (read one third) of these focusing a healer, they will die unless measures are taken to prevent it.

So, yes freep healing is powerful, but if everyone is focus firing as you so claim, then killing 1 healer is 100% possible with the numbers you describe. The error here lies with the users not the game mechanics, I think Garny's lessons may be warranted for creepside dps.

As to creepside healing, multiple defilers cross healing seem to have the same effect as an RK, unless you are fighting shilow, but there are only one of him, and the ettenmoors is vast...

Neither Landy nor E are good pvp servers. If you want a good pvp server u need to try Eternal Grove or Dark Haven.


THAT IS ALL

Originally Posted by TheBigMenace

...
So you are saying that a full creep raid can't pull 2500dps? Ok, lets see, on my R9 BA (who is full survivability with 15k of health btw), I can do 800 dps on a dummy.

Yeah, the practice dummies at Grams have the same Mitigation/Audacity/Resistance level as a freep with 3+ full buff row on them, right? Heres a SS of a typical 5 men Plok ZERG, NOT focusing on target (look at my chat), said target having similar statistics than a practice dummy (look at my target). Unlike freeps, those nasty dummies are also popping store brand like candy, right?

Try again...

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Yeah, the practice dummy at Grams have the same mitigation as a freep and 3+ full buff row on them, right? heres a SS of a typical 5 men Plok ZERG, NOT focusing on target (look at my chat), said target having similar statistic than a practice dummy (look at my target). Unlike freeps, those nasty dummies are also popping store brand like candy, right?

Try again...

lolololololol "They are all using store brand, disengage"

just to clear up a common misconception for some of our creep vets, Lore-Master's have an actual ability (not store brand) that makes their target immune to stuns/daze/knockdown. It is not a brand. No one in my group have ever used a store brand. I'm actually surprised that people that have played this game for so long don't know this. Before you complain about your opponent being too OP you may want to invest some time into actually learning what their abilities do so you can counter them.

Also it's pretty obvious that RK's won't have the same mitigations as a target dummy, but if you actually read Dolmir's post he accounts for that..

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

lolololololol "They are all using store brand, disengage"

just to clear up a common misconception for some of our creep vets, Lore-Master's have an actual ability (not store brand) that makes their target immune to stuns/daze/knockdown. It is not a brand. No one in my group have ever used a store brand. I'm actually surprised that people that have played this game for so long don't know this. Before you complain about your opponent being too OP you may want to invest some time into actually learning what their abilities do so you can counter them.

Also it's pretty obvious that RK's won't have the same mitigations as a target dummy, but if you actually read Dolmir's post he accounts for that..

Before coming in here with your high ground attitude, please start by answering my previous question, mr lesson giver:

Where in the videos you posted are those healing RKs?

As for your friend post, he took Audacity only into account and conveniently ignored Mitigation and buffs factors, like you.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Before coming in here with your high ground attitude

High ground attitude? I was merely trying to bring you to terms with reality. If you're wrong its only polite for someone to correct you.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Where in the videos you posted are those healing RKs?

There are none. Wow, you'd think a class that is so overpowered and so easy to play would be more popular huh?

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

As for your friend post, he took Audacity only into account and conveniently ignored Mitigation and buffs factors, like you.

This is true, the damage done would be much less than depicted initially. The DPS done by one creep will be negligible. The damage done by 10 creeps, on the other hand...

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Lets reverse the situation: me and a high rank WL are part of a small 6-7 creep group engaging a freep raid of 21. Theres simply no way, even in my wildest dreams, that i could keep up all my groupemates against full freeps DPS. Even left alone, in perfect healing conditions, i can pull out 800 HPS while a WL can do about 400. Thats 1200 HpS total. 2 or 3 freep DPS class can get throught this, easily.

Bio, I watched Mlsoun, Soly, Rak, Konfident, Arank, Pure, and a few others last for well over 1 minute against what looked like 3 groups worth of freeps around TR not so long ago. The two WLs alone took more than a minute for those freeps to kill once all the others were dead (and they took a bunch of hunters with them, lol). Even a small group of creeps can last a really long time against significantly more freeps when people are playing well.

My feeling is that the real imbalance lies in creep burst damage potential. Too many things have to go right for them to properly burst down a target that is getting heals or is supported by good players (and it's not just focus fire - but timing rounds of CDs and using CC at key moments on the support classes). Not to mention one of the damage classes creepside is just plain broken (reaver).

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Bio, I watched Mlsoun, Soly, Rak, Konfident, Arank, Pure, and a few others last for well over 1 minute against what looked like 3 groups worth of freeps around TR not so long ago. The two WLs alone took more than a minute for those freeps to kill once all the others were dead (and they took a bunch of hunters with them, lol). Even a small group of creeps can last a really long time against significantly more freeps when people are playing well.

My feeling is that the real imbalance lies in creep burst damage potential. Too many things have to go right for them to properly burst down a target that is getting heals or is supported by good players (and it's not just focus fire - but timing rounds of CDs and using CC at key moments on the support classes). Not to mention one of the damage classes creepside is just plain broken (reaver).

Anyway, just my thoughts.

I agree. Fix the reaver, AND compare creepside numbers without the MASSIVE skew towards wargs (they have their role AND they're very very very powerful when in that role, but when they're 30-40-50% of the creeps on the field they're a liability not an asset), and the moors would be a whole different world.

IMHO HEALING is broken, not freepside healing. But Healing across the board...it wasn't scaled with audacity and hence is VERY powefull right now. Add in the fact that NPCs are COMPLETELY underpowered and healing classes can just do ridiculous things right now.

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

High ground attitude? I was merely trying to bring you to terms with reality. If you're wrong its only polite for someone to correct you.

Your next 2 statements in this post contredict this one. Yeah, im a very polite person.

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

There are none. Wow, you'd think a class that is so overpowered and so easy to play would be more popular huh?

To keep going in the polite path, i would point out that its the healing aspect of the class that is underplayed, and not the class itself. People prefer zapping their opponants with big crit numbers instead of keeping their fellows alive. Not judging, just saying.

Originally Posted by DaviLOTR

This is true, the damage done would be much less than depicted initially. The DPS done by one creep will be negligible. The damage done by 10 creeps, on the other hand...

Thank you for your honesty, its appreciated. Have a good day.

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

I have a R6 WL I bring out in emergencies. I don't enjoy playing it at all, but I do it for the benefit of the group.

I play my warg, and I assume most of the other warg players do also - simply because it it so much FUN!

I don't care about the numbers - although your own figures suggest that there were 2738 freeps online total, and 2567 creeps total. Hard to tell how many individual players, and what the actual population ratio is at any given time - that, I believe, is the important bit.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

That's why I included total renown/infamy earned THAT is a pretty good representation of population ratio at any given time. Because it represents the actual combat occuring.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Agreed Hithy,

The tired old mantra of "too many wargs" wares on a body after a time. I play what I want, and those who do not like it can kiss my furry wargy muzzle.

It's not personal, it's factual. Wargs are not a class that is a power multiplier for creepside as a whole. They add power based on their numbers, but they do not MULTIPLY power like a healing class does.

It's not the fault of players wanting to play wargs, it's just a fact of the game.

When the question comes up "why is there a power imbalance" I think it's important to consider class composition and population density trends.

On a 1:1 scale, at higher ranks and/or store bought skills, I believe this game is closer to being balanced than ever. There ARE definitely opportunities to get better, there ARE VAST issues around builds...Champs are insanely powerful if they don't build for DPS but rather to be a tank. Just as Creepside healing is INSANELY powerful if built one way but terrible if built another. And these builds, and class mismatches even get more complicated when you look at group/raid level dynamics. Where things like AoE damage really come into play, and things like DoT/DD damage get wonky due to the prevalence of healing.

There are a LOT of factors at work, and although I personally believe skill DOES matter, most fights are pretty well predetermined before the first person enters combat. It's somewhat (generally in this order)

1> numbers,
2> rank/skills/gear and
3> class composition (and in some cases class composition is even more important than numbers).

Those three areas pretty much lock down most fights. Skill is a nebulous hard to quantify factor that makes for good stories of breaking the model.

Most other concerns are tertiary at best.

But the problem is there are hundreds if not thousands of combinations that can occur by just considering those three factors alone. So if you look at just ONE thing...like a particular classes healing ability and try to isolate it with anecdotal evidence I'd say it's garbage in garbage out analysis. There's just too much emphasis on those other 3 core variables.

Of course if Turbine valued PvMP as much as we do they'd develop test cases with experienced players to try out on the test server. Specific classes with specific skills in specific groups engaging each other under various guidelines. But first they'd have to assess their testers for the proper skillsets (no point in having someone like me play a Mini) and then bring in outside help to fill the proper roles. It'd probably take 5 or so fights for each iteration of testing and like I said probably a few hundred test cases of varying size, composition, and skill/gear setups.

The data out of THAT type of testing, not just let everyone free on the server and see what they cry about the loudest, WOULD give them real points to work from.

Right now, and honestly for the last 5 years, it's just seemed to be a "who do we want to make happy with this change" type of mindset. And that never makes ANYONE happy over the long haul.

Humour mode *ON*

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Bio, I watched Mlsoun, Soly, Rak, Konfident, Arank, Pure, and a few others last for well over 1 minute against what looked like 3 groups worth of freeps around TR not so long ago. The two WLs alone took more than a minute for those freeps to kill once all the others were dead (and they took a bunch of hunters with them, lol).

OMG! Are you seriously saying that what, about 9 of the best Landroval high ranked Creeps survived a whole 60 seconds against twice their numbers? And they even took what, 3-4 targets down with them? To those Creeps ==>

A new title has been bestowed to you. You shall now be known as *Ninja/Commando/Navy Seals/Terminator of Mordor* by those you encounter.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Even a small group of creeps can last a really long time against significantly more freeps when people are playing well.

Yes, 60 seconds is a very long time indeed. Its almost an eternity. Therefore, i humbly apologise for my previous posts in this thread and publicly admit i was wrong all the way. Im a total noob that have no idea about what hes doing in the Moors. Please forward the fallowing segment to Turbine devs...


Dear Turbine Devs,

I recently realized that my class is very OP and would like to petition for a self nerf. I recently DPSed a poor freep player for a whopping dev crit of 500 damage to his morale (my biggest crit ever), thus making me guilty of helping said player to be defeated and visit, for his first time in the Moors, a scary place totally unknown to him ==> The rez circle !!!

I can only imagine the distress and horror this poor soul has been throught when he saw his screen switching from the very nice bold colors your game usually have, to a black and white nightmare ! Im sincerly hoping the poor player wont have lifetime permanent sequels of this incident.

In order to prevent such abuse in the future, please nerf down my DPS by half, so any player ICMR can easily outheal me, even in a DPS corruption built.


Best regards,

Biohazzard


Humour mode *OFF*

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

My feeling is that the real imbalance lies in creep burst damage potential. Too many things have to go right for them to properly burst down a target that is getting heals or is supported by good players (and it's not just focus fire - but timing rounds of CDs and using CC at key moments on the support classes). Not to mention one of the damage classes creepside is just plain broken (reaver).

Anyway, just my thoughts.

You bring an excellent analyse of the current Moors biggest problem. I agree with you.

(Again, dont take the previous part of this post seriously )

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

OMG! Are you seriously saying that what, about 9 of the best Landroval high ranked Creeps survived a whole 60 seconds against twice their numbers? And they even took what, 3-4 targets down with them? To those Creeps ==>

I only mentioned the time because the thread seemed to center around a screenie of ~7 freeps taking a whole 30 seconds to die with 3 groups of creeps beating on them and 2 RKs healing. The WLs took 1 minute at least alone; the other creeps probably 1 minute too. The freeps were pretty much derping through the bubbles. I lol'd