Thread: PvP World?

Please read before trolling
PvE always had been the main focus of LOTRO but PvP players always looking for more action than what LOTRO can afford as a PvE game. I think it's time for changes and major playerbase to brought into the light. Lets us interactive conflict within walking distant of each other. Why not start a PvP world turbine? Make it so others don't have to leave their servers but use a world port, kind of when turbine changes you into a different layer but instead this combines all PvE Moors of all servers, players will use this port to go into a whole PvP world, make it a small map such as maybe 15% of Mirkwood. Not only this will bring players from other PvP games but also keep our PvP players entertained. I think this will help with lag on other servers and we can keep a limit on how many times a player can use their port, maybe throw it in the store as well?
Thanks for reading. Sorry about my English.

will need bigger map then only 15% of mirkwood lol

I like everything about that except the size of the area and the store relation.

I like the idea of an entire pvmp world you could temporarily transport your creeps or freeps to. The only issue I see is the guards all over the freep-friendly areas. Are they one-shotters? That would have to be changed of they are. Possibly a creep fortress or 2 to build as well. If you're gonna let creeps raid bree, you better give them a creep city for the freeps to raid too. No one-shotters, just mayhem.

Originally Posted by Ceremony

Please read before trolling
PvE always had been the main focus of LOTRO but PvP players always looking for more action than what LOTRO can afford as a PvE game. I think it's time for changes and major playerbase to brought into the light. Lets us interactive conflict within walking distant of each other. Why not start a PvP world turbine? Make it so others don't have to leave their servers but use a world port, kind of when turbine changes you into a different layer but instead this combines all PvE Moors of all servers, players will use this port to go into a whole PvP world, make it a small map such as maybe 15% of Mirkwood. Not only this will bring players from other PvP games but also keep our PvP players entertained. I think this will help with lag on other servers and we can keep a limit on how many times a player can use their port, maybe throw it in the store as well?
Thanks for reading. Sorry about my English.

Your English is fine, indeed, it's better than a lot of native speakers.

Several problems with this...

First, license. The license Turbine holds from SZC/MEE would require permission to make open world Pv(M)P of any sort.

Second, Lore. That's just shorthand for, is this consistent with the written work, LoTR? The answer is a pretty obvious NO. The bad guys lose. The bad guys don't even come close to doing some of the things that would occur in any sort of open world Pv(M)P. For example, creeps generally didn't kill Hobbits in the Shire. Even the brigand takeover of Bree only killed a handful of individuals. Barliman Butterbur gives the number--"three and two", meaning three men and two Hobbits...and he even names them. That is not consistent with a separate open world Pv(M)P server nor even with layering on existing servers. (Granted, full open world isn't what you suggested, but a special, common PvMP server would quickly lead to calls for it.)

Third, tech. It is doubtful that Turbine has the tech to create a common Pv(M)P space accessed from all servers. They have hinted that there are serious technical issues for doing this with instances (for the IJ panel). Without the tech...Cannot Be Done.

Fourth, cost. To set up a common PvMP server would cost a good sized chunk of change. A business case to do that would have to show that it will pay for itself through increased revenue. Where is that increased revenue going to come from? Is Turbine to charge additional fees to all those wishing to engage in PvMP for access to that server? Would those that balk at spending an effective $5 per month ($10 per month less the value of "free" TP) for access to freep PvMP be willing to spend more, just for access to a common server? Will those who are running true f2p accounts be willing to spend *anything* to gain such access? Clearly those that don't do PvMP would object to subsidizing such a boondoggle when the real problem is that there just aren't all that many PvMPers to start with (mainly because if there were, proposals like this wouldn't come up).

I trust that you are aware that there are population limits to access to the Ettenmoors. This is not (by all accounts) apparent to people on a day to day basis on live servers, but has been subject to tests in closed betas. Turbine has done stress tests to determine where to set the limits. The relatively sparse PvMP populations on live servers (which, I presume, the suggestion is meant to address) doesn't hit the limits, but a common server might. Unless, of course, the areas involved are significantly larger. In that case, there is the risk that the two sides will, in practice, be unable to find each other on the map....at which points PvMPers will be back with the original complaint about the map be empty and wanting some way to increase the population density.

It is my suspicion that the problem of spreading out PvMP to the point that neither side can find the other may be a large part of why the twice announced and twice withdrawn plan for a second PvMP zone has occurred. Turbine can't figure out how to solve the dispersal problem, either.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

It is my suspicion that the problem of spreading out PvMP to the point that neither side can find the other may be a large part of why the twice announced and twice withdrawn plan for a second PvMP zone has occurred. Turbine can't figure out how to solve the dispersal problem, either.

Interesting. Perhaps what's bothering the PvMPers is not so much that they don't have enough people to fight with/against, but that the Moors are always the same old Moors? A completely rewritten/redrawn Moors might please them ... but there's still the question of where the money would come from.

Pretending that Turbine had the time/inclination to dedicate to PvP expansion, about the only thing other than the current Moors I could see as possible woiuld to make another PvP area that is esentially "bad guy territory", where PvP among any number of creeps (and creeps alone) would be possible.

Keeping it that way would be theoretically lore permissable since creeps are at each others throats anyway in LotR, (see the orc interbattles in Mordor, for example) but it would still be a pretty huge undertaking for them to attempt.

There's also the inevitable issue of demands for additional creep classes, and the tar-baby of demands for "class balancing" between the various creep classes that would ensue, another time sync that Turbine would have to be willing to take on, and all in order to satisfy demands that the game be modified to suit a different target audience than it has aimed for over a 5 year period.

Yeah great idea, let's put all players from all servers who wants to PvMP into an area 15% the size of Mirkwood :P If only 30 players in an area causes massive lag, all PvMP players combined won't make much difference after all xD

lmao 15% mirkwood would lower cost..which why I suggested it.

Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder

Yeah great idea, let's put all players from all servers who wants to PvMP into an area 15% the size of Mirkwood :P If only 30 players in an area causes massive lag, all PvMP players combined won't make much difference after all xD

Ooooh, zinger.

Originally Posted by Moejo

I like the idea of an entire pvmp world you could temporarily transport your creeps or freeps to. The only issue I see is the guards all over the freep-friendly areas. Are they one-shotters? That would have to be changed of they are. Possibly a creep fortress or 2 to build as well. If you're gonna let creeps raid bree, you better give them a creep city for the freeps to raid too. No one-shotters, just mayhem.

I was thinking of making it to have a creep fortress and a freep camp but no one shoters and no rez circles either.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Your English is fine, indeed, it's better than a lot of native speakers.

Several problems with this...

First, license. The license Turbine holds from SZC/MEE would require permission to make open world Pv(M)P of any sort.

Second, Lore. That's just shorthand for, is this consistent with the written work, LoTR? The answer is a pretty obvious NO. The bad guys lose. The bad guys don't even come close to doing some of the things that would occur in any sort of open world Pv(M)P. For example, creeps generally didn't kill Hobbits in the Shire. Even the brigand takeover of Bree only killed a handful of individuals. Barliman Butterbur gives the number--"three and two", meaning three men and two Hobbits...and he even names them. That is not consistent with a separate open world Pv(M)P server nor even with layering on existing servers. (Granted, full open world isn't what you suggested, but a special, common PvMP server would quickly lead to calls for it.)

Third, tech. It is doubtful that Turbine has the tech to create a common Pv(M)P space accessed from all servers. They have hinted that there are serious technical issues for doing this with instances (for the IJ panel). Without the tech...Cannot Be Done.

Fourth, cost. To set up a common PvMP server would cost a good sized chunk of change. A business case to do that would have to show that it will pay for itself through increased revenue. Where is that increased revenue going to come from? Is Turbine to charge additional fees to all those wishing to engage in PvMP for access to that server? Would those that balk at spending an effective $5 per month ($10 per month less the value of "free" TP) for access to freep PvMP be willing to spend more, just for access to a common server? Will those who are running true f2p accounts be willing to spend *anything* to gain such access? Clearly those that don't do PvMP would object to subsidizing such a boondoggle when the real problem is that there just aren't all that many PvMPers to start with (mainly because if there were, proposals like this wouldn't come up).

I trust that you are aware that there are population limits to access to the Ettenmoors. This is not (by all accounts) apparent to people on a day to day basis on live servers, but has been subject to tests in closed betas. Turbine has done stress tests to determine where to set the limits. The relatively sparse PvMP populations on live servers (which, I presume, the suggestion is meant to address) doesn't hit the limits, but a common server might. Unless, of course, the areas involved are significantly larger. In that case, there is the risk that the two sides will, in practice, be unable to find each other on the map....at which points PvMPers will be back with the original complaint about the map be empty and wanting some way to increase the population density.

It is my suspicion that the problem of spreading out PvMP to the point that neither side can find the other may be a large part of why the twice announced and twice withdrawn plan for a second PvMP zone has occurred. Turbine can't figure out how to solve the dispersal problem, either.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Actually the witch king invaded bree and whole north eregion when arnor still was intact so lore wise it can be done

Originally Posted by Elilreth

Actually the witch king invaded bree and whole north eregion when arnor still was intact so lore wise it can be done

oohhh snap

In my opinion total world pvp would be an absolute disaster. Wargs camping archet and quest areas... if you want creeps to level well you would have to make a mirrored reflection of freeps but darker....... That would double the price of making the game...... i was thinking have that elvenkings castle in northen mirkwood and some other mirkwoodian place be used for creeps. there is so much moor mirkwood than we have. it would be so simple to make a new map sketch bigger than the moors and new.... The thing is the ettenmoors lineup is thousands of years old. It was here since days of squires fighting eachother. base in top left base in bottom right center base. It is pretty much the first place the squires will go to so they can fight. Turbine knew that! Most of the time its ta stab ec oc areas sometimes elsewhere but back to my point. HOW would they set up this new place same as always? or mabye a twist. add more bases and more origional ideas? like...say less pve... leave pve in moors and moar fights in the north mirkwood. how bout move castles to newer positions. I dont have any idea how because the moors position makes for the best pvp. We could make aspects where freeps and creeps could use some new token (like tokens of valour) to get like 10 npcs and assault a location with them. I overall think we need something! 5 yearrs of the same old same old! we are kinda bored! people leaving the moors! people dropping vip! It would add revenue to turbine and help our enjoyment! please do it.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

Actually the witch king invaded bree and whole north eregion when arnor still was intact so lore wise it can be done

But NOT within the period of LotR. Remember, Turbine's license covers only what is within those books. (That book, really; it's an example of that 19th/early 20th century phenomenon, the three-volume novel.)

Originally Posted by RunKeep3r

I overall think we need something! 5 yearrs of the same old same old! we are kinda bored! people leaving the moors! people dropping vip! It would add revenue to turbine and help our enjoyment! please do it.

Oh, some new landscape -- even a complete wipe-and-replace of the existing Moors with new stuff -- would probably be very gratifying to the PvMPers. Something new to do in your sub-genre. But WB -- which knows the percentage of PvMPers among the player base -- isn't going to pay for it. Witness the fact that they haven't paid for it yet. WB is in the business of making money. Spending money on something that isn't going to bring in a lot of money isn't going to happen.

It shouldn´t be the whole World, but an area, two or three times bigger than the EM

Once Turbine solves the problems with the cross server Instance Finder, the could add a port to the new area to the War Tab
It should work like a big cross server Instance with unlimited players

Would be interesting, I´d love it

Originally Posted by Chris91

It shouldn´t be the whole World, but an area, two or three times bigger than the EM

Where are they going to put it, though? The advantage of the Ettenmoors as a place to stick PvMP where no one would wander into it accidentally is that Tolkien *mentioned it once* and in the course of the story no one went there.

Once Turbine solves the problems with the cross server Instance Finder, they could add a port to the new area to the War Tab. It should work like a big cross server Instance with unlimited players

There have been other threads discussing this possibility. General consensus (and as usual, no dev has commented) is that the cross-server instance isn't possible with the Turbine Engine ... and that if it were, a mere handful of PvMPers from each of twenty-nine servers would break the system.

Originally Posted by djheydt

But NOT within the period of LotR. Remember, Turbine's license covers only what is within those books. (That book, really; it's an example of that 19th/early 20th century phenomenon, the three-volume novel.)

yeh true to bad though, would love to see a session play of that ^^ invading bree

Originally Posted by djheydt

There have been other threads discussing this possibility. General consensus (and as usual, no dev has commented) is that the cross-server instance isn't possible with the Turbine Engine ... and that if it were, a mere handful of PvMPers from each of twenty-nine servers would break the system.

Actually.... There has been comment from Turbine about the possibility of a cross-server IF. They admitted there are difficulties (they're not SURE they can do it, but they think they can). They also said they're not sure that it would be a good idea to do it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by RunKeep3r

stuff

I really like the idea of having a new map in northern Mirkwood! Would be an interesting approach.

One of the first things I noticed when I stepped into Mirkwood was that it was much more active than the other areas of the maps. The elves were regularly lining up and moving out to assault the nearby camps and it seemed much more dynamic than the previous areas. Unfortunately this was used only for the introduction quests but I can see a similar, active landscape being worthwhile in the moors. Hard to tell until we see it in execution though.

All that aside, I would much rather see the bugs in pve world hammered out before they start looking into new pvp maps. I realize this is tough for creeps who choose to play in the ettens only but there really isn't a way to make all parties involved happy.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

Actually the witch king invaded bree and whole north eregion when arnor still was intact so lore wise it can be done

The Witch-king's invasion took place in 1974 T.A. and at the time only the Kingdom of Arthedain remained of old Arnor. The Witch-king only got as far as Fornost and did not move on to Bree or the Shire. In 1975, the Witch-king and his army were defeated (the army totally destroyed) by an army out of Gondor lead by King Earnur (the last king in Gondor). In game terms, these events took place over a thousand years ago (1045, 1044 to be exact) and the power of Angmar was so reduced that you could say that effectively there were no longer any Orcs or evil men who could even make small raids into Eriador even now.

With all due respect, I just would like to say one thing really.. and that is pvp is not and has not always been the main focus of lotro. Originally pvp was not even part of the plan. It's a very small part of what lotro is all about... no offense.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

With all due respect, I just would like to say one thing really.. and that is pvp is not and has not always been the main focus of lotro. Originally pvp was not even part of the plan. It's a very small part of what lotro is all about... no offense.

Yes... Any number of us point that out from time to time. The pro-Pv(M)P party then comes back with "but we *want* it" which doesn't move the conversation forward to any noticeable degree.

There are a myriad of reasons why most proposals to expand or enhance PvMP won't work, but the PvMPers keep trying the same old ideas again and again. The brick wall doesn't appear to have suffered any damage yet. I dunno about their heads.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Yes... Any number of us point that out from time to time. The pro-Pv(M)P party then comes back with "but we *want* it" which doesn't move the conversation forward to any noticeable degree.

There are a myriad of reasons why most proposals to expand or enhance PvMP won't work, but the PvMPers keep trying the same old ideas again and again. The brick wall doesn't appear to have suffered any damage yet. I dunno about their heads.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

We say we want it..you say you don´t want it..so what, what´s the difference?
Whether PvP is a big part of Lotro or not is not up to you to decide (and not up to me either)

For me it certainly is a big part of my Lotro Experience (like 60% PvP, 30% Orthanc T2, 10% everything else). For you, it´s not

However, if the Devs get a cross-server Instance Finder to work, they could also get a cross server PvP area to work. I, and many other, would enjoy it. You don´t have to make use out of it. It doesn´t hinder you in any way. No one asked for Open World PvP

As a 100% PvE player, I would love to see you guys get something like this. I just cannot see Turbine taking the time to do it.

It's a great idea that will probably never happen.

I'd think the scaling issues would be the hardest, but they could of course always do multiple instances of whatever the cross-world PvMP region was. Within each instance, they'd need to try and provide some incentives for people to hold multiple positions simultaneously (to keep them spread out). Lots of players in a small area is death to the servers because they cannot share the load in that area without resorting to layers (and I suspect layers would drive PvMP players bananas ).

The side-effect of doing something like this would likely be that it would move a large percentage of the moors population to the cross-server instances, which is great for the people who like the new flavor of PvMP - not so great for those who prefer the old one.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Chris91

We say we want it..you say you don´t want it..so what, what´s the difference?

The difference is that those who don't do Pv(M)P don't start endless, repetitive threads asking Turbine to cut back on it.

Whether PvP is a big part of Lotro or not is not up to you to decide (and not up to me either)

PvMP is in a single, not terribly large area and PvMPers make posts complaining that the Ettenmoors are "empty" and asking for things to "attract" PvEers to the Ettenmoors in hopes of getting more numbers there. The comments from PvMPers certainly *sound* like there aren't very many people engaging in PvMP.

For me it certainly is a big part of my Lotro Experience (like 60% PvP, 30% Orthanc T2, 10% everything else). For you, it´s not

From that are you attempting to conclude that 60% of the players do PvMP, 30% are busy running Orthanc and only 10% are doing everything else? Because if that's your contention, I have to tell you that it is extremely likely that you're wrong.

However, if the Devs get a cross-server Instance Finder to work, they could also get a cross server PvP area to work. I, and many other, would enjoy it. You don´t have to make use out of it. It doesn´t hinder you in any way. No one asked for Open World PvP

Yes.... IF the devs succeed. That's a very big "if" and it hinges on both getting the resources allocated to it (by convincing upper management that it is worth paying for) AND solving any technical issues in the way.

IF that comes to pass... I certainly wouldn't stand in the way of allowing cross-server PvMP, so long as it doesn't adversely impact PvE.

And by the way....there have been quite a number of threads calling for open world Pv(M)P. Every time one comes up, those supporting the idea appear to be quite startled that there isn't universal approval. I don't know why they're suprised, but it is a consistent pattern.

These days, if I find such threads early enough, I just note that the idea will be resisted and the OP of such a thread should go do some research on what was said in other threads making the same suggestion. With any luck, I manage to do that *before* the flood gates of active opposition open.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by ArahadEketta

The Witch-king's invasion took place in 1974 T.A. and at the time only the Kingdom of Arthedain remained of old Arnor. The Witch-king only got as far as Fornost and did not move on to Bree or the Shire. In 1975, the Witch-king and his army were defeated (the army totally destroyed) by an army out of Gondor lead by King Earnur (the last king in Gondor). In game terms, these events took place over a thousand years ago (1045, 1044 to be exact) and the power of Angmar was so reduced that you could say that effectively there were no longer any Orcs or evil men who could even make small raids into Eriador even now.

im pretty sure they battled with gondor at the barrows which is basicly next to bree but i might be wrong

This game does not have enough players anymore to support the opening of any new servers, even a PvMP server.
If you open a PvMP server, you kill off other servers. At this point Turbine need to be merging servers. Directly after F2P, Turbine could have released a PvMP server with relatively high success, now? GG Turbine.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

im pretty sure they battled with gondor at the barrows which is basicly next to bree but i might be wrong

The Barrow Downs are a formal burial ground for the wealthy. Holding a battle there would be like having a firefight in a graveyard. Possible, but not something one would normally seek to do, if for no other reason than that there is nothing worth taking control of in Barrow Downs.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by ImirielOfTheNorth

This game does not have enough players anymore to support the opening of any new servers, even a PvMP server.
If you open a PvMP server, you kill off other servers. At this point Turbine need to be merging servers. Directly after F2P, Turbine could have released a PvMP server with relatively high success, now? GG Turbine.

Umm... Kill off other servers that way? Not likely. Kill off PvMP on other servers, distinctly possible.

Physically, yes, Turbine could have set up a PvMP server. Practically...there are a lot of roadblocks to overcome like license restrictions and a major code revamp/expansion along with major new expenses. The expense would be that of maintaining testing and deploying two code bases, one for PvE with 29 servers to share the cost and the other with a single server to cover the cost. Turbine has been down that path twice already and on the first one, we used to see the relative numbers. Full time PvP servers are not nearly as active as general PvE servers in Turbine games. The income really doesn't justify the cost.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Elilreth

im pretty sure they battled with gondor at the barrows which is basicly next to bree but i might be wrong

I had my copy of the Red Book of Westernesse (Single volume hardback of the LotR) when I typed up my post. The Witch-king, after destroying the Army of Arthedain held his forces to Fornost. One, he had to re-group plus the fact that he had a horde of Orcs who were more interested in sacking and pillaging Fornost.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Umm... Kill off other servers that way? Not likely. Kill off PvMP on other servers, distinctly possible.

Physically, yes, Turbine could have set up a PvMP server. Practically...there are a lot of roadblocks to overcome like license restrictions and a major code revamp/expansion along with major new expenses. The expense would be that of maintaining testing and deploying two code bases, one for PvE with 29 servers to share the cost and the other with a single server to cover the cost. Turbine has been down that path twice already and on the first one, we used to see the relative numbers. Full time PvP servers are not nearly as active as general PvE servers in Turbine games. The income really doesn't justify the cost.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

This plus IMO the majority of full time PVPers would not agree or want to move to a pvp server. I know at least a few of the servers have set up and maintained quite a successful community. Merging those together would create quite a chaotic setup and ultimately would not work. It has been seen time and time again when kins and tribes from one server with a certain type of community transfer to another and create a rift between them and the community which leads to them quitting or transferring back off. LOTRO's pvp is highly based on the server. There are Fight Club servers, RP servers, Raid V Raid servers, ect ect. merging those together alone would create more headaches then needed.

Originally Posted by whheydt

The Barrow Downs are a formal burial ground for the wealthy. Holding a battle there would be like having a firefight in a graveyard. Possible, but not something one would normally seek to do, if for no other reason than that there is nothing worth taking control of in Barrow Downs.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

the witch king would do something like this |:P remember he is evil!