Thread: Tanking tower of orthanc: lightning wing. Solo or with a warden.

My kin wants to do a ToO lightning wing soon and as the only tank capable of handling a raid situation in the kin (gear and experience wise) we're mostly likely going to PuG the second tank. It's not that I hate wardens (as some players on Ridder would have you think!) I just don't know how to work with wardens. Most wardens I've grouped with act like they don't want to actually want to work with anyone (maybe the lore master for the power share). So I've always just sighed, swapped my gear and went into OP stance. That being said, if I'm going to PuG a second tank I'm not going to be picky and say I need a second guard. I'm going to take what I can get.

So, for the lightning boss how does a guard/warden team work? When forced into a raiding situation with a warden I always insist on having the warden in the other fellowship so he doesn't leech aggro. Stick with that or put them in the same group? How do you successfully swap aggro with a warden? Back when the level cap was 65 I duoed turtle with a warden but had the warden take aggro first then grabbed the aggro when the turtle was at half health. Since I'm worried about having static build up we can't just rely on how long the tank/off tank can survive, but actually doing a successful swap.

If I can't count on that, I hear you can solo tank the boss in lightning wing. How do you go about doing that?

T1, of course. The kin is far from ready from doing ToO t2.

I swap with a warden in there and it goes just as smooth as swapping with a guard.

You want aggro? Turn on threat stance. Want to lose aggro? Turn off threat stance.

Keep building threat in block stance when you don't have aggro so that you maintain enough threat to immediately get it back via threat stance. Have the warden keep building threat when you have aggro so he'll have more real threat than you and will get it back when you drop threat stance. Engage when you take it, just in case. It might take a try or two to get a feel for how much threat to generate when you don't have aggro without stealing him, but it's really pretty easy.

I'd keep the warden out of your group, but this is probly a question better answered in the warden forums.

I've duo tanked Kalbak with a Warden. The difficult part for a Warden can be getting aggro back from the Guardian after he has done an Engage. Ideally the Warden wants to continue generating aggro alongside the Guardian but not go crazy for aggro. That way when the Guardian drops out of Guardian's Threat stance the aggro should hopefully automatically flip over. If it doesn't then the Warden could probably spam EoB until he does. Either way once it's the Wardens turn he should go nuts for aggro regardless and build up as much aggro as possible. Then the Guardian can do an Engage or CtD to pull if back off of the Warden and put his Guardian's Threat stance back on.

In a perfect scenario if both the Guardian and Warden are generating aggro and keeping their aggro close to each other then all that the Guardian has to do to flip aggro back 'n forth is toggle Guardian's Threat stance on and off. The longer the encounter goes on the easier this will become, ie;
28% perceived threat of 100k is only 28k PT
28% perceived threat of 500k is 140k PT
^These are just dummy numbers for easy representation as no one person is going to have 100% of the damage threat.

So early on the Warden and Guardian might have to coordinate a bit better, but as the battle gets midway and towards the end I would wager a simple toggle of Guardian's Threat stance on and off will easily flip the aggo.

U could always try solo tanking if u dont feel confident with a pug tank, at least in my kin we do wings with 1 tank and saruman we have tried both with 1 and 2 tanks (still to get him down) and we did there better with 1 tank as the extra dps eased us tbh.

This probably won't really answer your question, but I am part of this crazy troupe of raiders on Nimrodel who had a warden solo tank T1 Lightning back when warden survivability was still in a nerfed state before Update 6.

We had a minstrel, rune keeper, and captain who were all dedicated to healing the warden, while another minstrel took care of the rest of the group who were all doing ranged DPS (even the champion was only allowed to use his bow). So basically, we just healed through the static build up with no worries, and the rest of the group stayed safely out of range. Unfortunately, I am the captain in the group, so I'm not certain exactly how the static effect actually works, nor how this could translate into a solo tanking strategy for you. But since it was done with a nerfed warden as the tank, I'm sure there's a way you can do it as a raid ready guardian. Good Luck!

Ok, so tanking with a warden is almost the same as with another guard. I just have to use Threat Stance. Thank you for the input guys. When I tanked with another guard we were both just in defense stance simply because it was easier than having to swap stances with every aggro swap.

I just hope if I can't find another guard then the warden we get doesn't mind trying a few times.

Question: Which tank should initiate the fight (warden or guard?).
Usually when I started the fight I use CtD first so I can stand closer to the side I want to pull the boss to and still grab aggro right off the bat. I don't usually have to worry about swapping aggro with a guard but with a warden where I would, should I save CtD as an emergency skill?

@ Crimson_Aurochs:
Oh I'm certain it can be done on a guard, I've just never seen it done so I need to know what to expect. TBH when wardens were going through their QQ phase pre U6 I saw two wardens with the capabilities of tanking ToO so I know it was even possible then (just depends on how skilled the player is). What I need to know is how to solo it on a guard, because, well I'm a guard not a warden. I'm also the only person in my kin (we're a small kin) who has experience in all ToO wings so if they're going to do it, then they're not going to do it without me.

Originally Posted by Anwiga

Question: Which tank should initiate the fight (warden or guard?).
Usually when I started the fight I use CtD first so I can stand closer to the side I want to pull the boss to and still grab aggro right off the bat. I don't usually have to worry about swapping aggro with a guard but with a warden where I would, should I save CtD as an emergency skill?

Let the warden start the fight, since they can generate more aggro and build as much aggro as you can in block stance once he gets him moved.

You really should never be opening any fight with CtD. Like Engage, its an aggro copy w/ a 5s force attack. So if no one has built aggro, its not doing you any good. Save it for if your engage resists in a swap (or don't trait it at all for that fight, which is what I do).

Originally Posted by harman097

Let the warden start the fight, since they can generate more aggro and build as much aggro as you can in block stance once he gets him moved.

You really should never be opening any fight with CtD. Like Engage, its an aggro copy w/ a 5s force attack. So if no one has built aggro, its not doing you any good. Save it for if your engage resists in a swap (or don't trait it at all for that fight, which is what I do).

I wouldn't say it's not doing me any good. When I first started doing ToO lightning I tried to open with Challenge but its range is so small that by the time it went off the boss was already at the group. Same deal with FtE, it would hit but its aggro is minimal and the DPS already out DPSed it by the time I got to the corner I want to tank the boss in. Really CtD is best for me in situations like that. I also use CtD in Saruman phase 5 to pull as many as the clones as I can without worrying about range.

My Kin solo tanks Kalbak T1 with a warden most of the time. If he goes down then I pick him up (or who ever else is there). You need a good bit of healing to keep up, especially toward the end of the fight or you tend to get caught by a big crit/dev. Point is, we bring two tanks all the time, but don't swap aggro. We solo tank with a backup.

Originally Posted by Anwiga

I wouldn't say it's not doing me any good. When I first started doing ToO lightning I tried to open with Challenge but its range is so small that by the time it went off the boss was already at the group. Same deal with FtE, it would hit but its aggro is minimal and the DPS already out DPSed it by the time I got to the corner I want to tank the boss in. Really CtD is best for me in situations like that. I also use CtD in Saruman phase 5 to pull as many as the clones as I can without worrying about range.

Why don't you just run up to him and bash him with your shield a few times then move him? I'm confused.

You're right about Saruman - I shouldn't say its not doing any good to open fights. I use it for rounding up lots of mobs as well. But single target fight? Idk, I don't see it.

I have always tanked this with another guard beside me. If i may interject a wardens point of view you may find it useful. As someone has already said I (the warden) usually starts the fight by building as much threat as possible. Usually the first couple of swaps the guard has to engage or CtD off of me. Once the guard has aggro ill continue building up aggro but not as aggressively as i did at the start of the fight. (generally ive built so aggressively at the start of the fight once the guard engages he shouldnt have to work too hard to maintain aggro) From a warden point of view its a little easier if both tanks and the highest dpser are all in the same group together. While the guard has aggro i will not use any threat leaches (unless i feel im falling behind a little in keeping close to the guards aggro) When the guard tells me to take over ill toss out a couple of threat leaches and highest threat skills. Ofc the guard is toggling threat stance. For the first 3 or 4 static teirs i focus on madly generating threat again. After that i start on defense so it teirs up a little slower. Guard continues building threat in block stance. From this point on toggling threat stance is usually close to enough for swapping. Still use engage if needed, but that +25% over my threat can be tough to overcome sometimes so tell me if your pulling with threat toggle or having to hit engage. If its engage i may leach some aggro off of you, but dont worry (we the tanks should have plenty of a threat lead from my initial threat spamming).The first two swaps back and forth require the most coordination. After that it gets alot easier like Zonflux said. I also ask that the guard tells me when his static teir is about 6. When this happens Ill build a little more aggressively (not leaching at this point) so when i have to take over again its easier. Hope this helps some and GL in there!

Since you are speaking of T1, I did a T1 run last week with a fellow guardian, and our feeling was that it had been nerfed to the point where having two tanks and swapping was pointless. Our shock barely moved, and we just stood in the middle and didn't care about steam.

If your DPS group is too slow, be careful that the steam also gives a buff to outgoing DPS (crits IIRC, but I may be wrong). If your group is slow, it is more than likely that your hardest hitter is way above the rest, and he will get a huge boost if you are slow enough to let steam tier way up. So remember to use threat stance and engage.

To sum up:

• build up as much aggro as possible, right from the start
• have everyone stay in melee range, to share distributed hits, and be in range for aggro leeches
• don't move, unless your shock is at 8 or 9 and you have aggro
• PROFIT

Your pledges will help you tier down shock, and force taunting for 10s or 13s can help tier down the other tanks shock.

Originally Posted by harman097

Why don't you just run up to him and bash him with your shield a few times then move him? I'm confused.

You're right about Saruman - I shouldn't say its not doing any good to open fights. I use it for rounding up lots of mobs as well. But single target fight? Idk, I don't see it.

Because I never thought of that! Oh my gosh I'm so stupid! xP Will certainly give it a try! I feel like I learn something new every time I come here :3
Actually I like the (even short amount) of force taunt. There's just always that voice in my head telling me if I don't open with a force taunt there's no way I keep aggro on a mob. My friends list is Hunter heavy and I still have nightmares from the MoM days when I couldn't hold aggro on Igash when with a well geared Hunter.

@ Erasluindor: Thank you so much! Perspective from a warden who has duo tanked with a guard is just what I wanted to hear.
See I didn't know it was best to have both tanks in the same group.
Just two questions come to mind. If anyone can answer that'd be great.
1. If it's difficult to out threat a warden and using threat toggle and engage is a way around that, then how does a guard go about swapping aggro in an easy situation? (I've always engaged to take threat. threat toggle rarely since I've grouped with guards who say they will toggle threat stance but forget to).
2. Does force taunting mess this up? I've tested my guard's threat vs. a warden's threat before and could not for the life of me hold aggo over him. The only way I could pull the mob off of him was to use challenge. I was lucky if, after it wore off, that it stayed on me for three seconds. Of course, this was back before I was 75, or started raiding so my gear wasn't that great and even skill wise wasn't too great. I have the Laingarth (sp? shield smash ToT) set currently (well only five pieces, I prefer the Draig boots over the ToO boots).

Originally Posted by Maelendil

Since you are speaking of T1, I did a T1 run last week with a fellow guardian, and our feeling was that it had been nerfed to the point where having two tanks and swapping was pointless. Our shock barely moved, and we just stood in the middle and didn't care about steam.

To sum up:

• build up as much aggro as possible, right from the start
• have everyone stay in melee range, to share distributed hits, and be in range for aggro leeches
• don't move, unless your shock is at 8 or 9 and you have aggro
• PROFIT

Is this advice for solo tanking the boss? I know how to duo tank with another guard, I've done so quite a few times. My question was about duo tanking with a warden specifically or solo tanking it. Neither of which I have experienced and want to be prepared for.

I have solo tanked this as a guard, you just have to have your pledge up when you hit tier 8 and use your warriors heart the first time you drop below 20% for the ICH effect. I normally swap with a warden, but like some posted noted it is hard for them to get single target threat back. Just used your engage and challenge once, the rest of the time just use fray and litany/bash so your threat isnt way higher then the wardens. After he gets aggro just use def stance and hit fray/bash until you is ready to swap at t5-8.

It also helps if the warden is the one who pulls Kalbek and tanks him first.

Originally Posted by Anwiga

Because I never thought of that! Oh my gosh I'm so stupid! xP Will certainly give it a try! I feel like I learn something new every time I come here :3
Actually I like the (even short amount) of force taunt. There's just always that voice in my head telling me if I don't open with a force taunt there's no way I keep aggro on a mob. My friends list is Hunter heavy and I still have nightmares from the MoM days when I couldn't hold aggro on Igash when with a well geared Hunter.

Why don't you inform the people you're raiding with how ######## it is to pull aggro in the initial 5s when you're trying to move him? Lightning is NOT a dps race. Blowing a 15 min cd just because some huntards can't count to 10 is mind-boggling.

Bash him with your shield then move him. Proceed to flip the f*** out if anyone pulls aggro before he can run back to you.

Originally Posted by harman097

Why don't you inform the people you're raiding with how ######## it is to pull aggro in the initial 5s when you're trying to move him? Lightning is NOT a dps race. Blowing a 15 min cd just because some huntards can't count to 10 is mind-boggling.

Bash him with your shield then move him. Proceed to flip the f*** out if anyone pulls aggro before he can run back to you.

I agree.
DPS shouldn't start until the mob is in place, that should take less than 5s. After the mob is in place you can use challenge and dps can start if they're really in a big hurry.

We decided to solo tank this last night. I went dps and let the guard handle the solo tanking job. It went incredibly smooth. Alot easier than any makeup trying to duo tank it. I suggest this over tank swapping if your build is solid enough.

Solo tanking is way easier than anything else you may want to try. You stay on the boss while the entire group is balled up somewhere (preferrably near) and when your static reaches 9 (at 10 you explode) you move back, explode far from fellows and return to the boss again. It can be tricky to get the timing of moving back and the such but you learn it with a few tries.

Originally Posted by harman097

Why don't you inform the people you're raiding with how ######## it is to pull aggro in the initial 5s when you're trying to move him? Lightning is NOT a dps race. Blowing a 15 min cd just because some huntards can't count to 10 is mind-boggling.

Bash him with your shield then move him. Proceed to flip the f*** out if anyone pulls aggro before he can run back to you.

Flipping out doesn't really help the situation in a PuG. I can get a few hunters that know how to work well with me but the rest will most likely be from GLFF. Nor will it do for the future when I want to run another instance and all anyone can remember about me is that I'm that chick who yells at people for doing their job. I'm just trying to find ways to help things go smoother (undoubtedly it will be a little difficult for the many first timers). No need to insult me for trying.

Originally Posted by Anwiga

Flipping out doesn't really help the situation in a PuG. I can get a few hunters that know how to work well with me but the rest will most likely be from GLFF. Nor will it do for the future when I want to run another instance and all anyone can remember about me is that I'm that chick who yells at people for doing their job. I'm just trying to find ways to help things go smoother (undoubtedly it will be a little difficult for the many first timers). No need to insult me for trying.

Not trying to insult you - my apologies if I did, anyways. I'm trying to insult the idiots who pull off you 5s into a non-dps race :P Sorry if this isn't advice you want, but can we not agree that in pretty much ANY other circumstances, blowing CtD to start a single target fight sounds like you're doing something wrong or don't understand how it works? Was just trying to be helpful.

I guess if you're dealing with puggers then you gotta do what you gotta do. I don't pug much, other than raid skirms, but I still don't see how politely yet assertively informing people not to dps for the first 10s would have that low of a success rate. Yes, I realize there are some very very clueless players that you will happen upon - leading numerous Rift skirms is a nice reminder - but still...

yeah, solo tank the boss... there's no reason for duo tanking it.

pretty sure even glff hunters can understand simple instructions like "please don't attack for the first 5 seconds, while i position the mob". And if they ignore you I don't think you have much choice other than to let them die then say "please dont attack for the first 5 seconds" again.

Honestly it's the raid leader's job to manage that. No pug will succeed if people are going to ignore the tank's instructions.