Thread: 1 character slot gets moors for non vip freeps

To be similar to creepside give the non Vip's the ability to unlock 1 character slots access to the moors. Once this is done you cannot switch it to another slot unless the character is deleted. Then allow additional slots to be unlocked with TP as the other classes are on creepside. This will bring more action to the moors and a nice cash flow to Turbine.

/signed. I believe Turbine will find it highly profitable.

Well... It's a *different* proposal for allowing non-VIP accounts access to freepside Ettenmoors.

From the way this is written, I presume you mean for free, right? Since premium/f2p creeps are expected to buy various things they need in the Store (thus monetizing creepside PvMP), how would such an unlock monetize freepside PvMP? And especially, bring in enough money to offset the loss of VIP payments from players that only run one PvMP-capable character?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Look at it this way. I am a founder....have dropped to premium for the last year, only buying new content. If they gave me access to moors on one toon and that is all I do, they lose nothing as I am still premium...but if I then decide I want to bring my other toons to moors they gain money for each toon. Worse case for a player like me they gain nothing, best case they make a ton of money.

Most people only play one slot. From most people I know the only reason they resumed they sub was so they could enter moors again. F2P isn't designed to make it so that people can everything they want for free (which is what your sugesting). Yes I understand their is the potential to make money, but in all honesty all I see is a proposal to ask turbine to ask for nothing. Thats just me though and Turbine isnt my company so if you don't need to pay cheers lol.

If this idea won't work then how about putting back pre-paid lotro cards that instead of giving tp will let you be vip(and give some tp maybe). That's a profitable method.

Originally Posted by jugger181

To be similar to creepside give the non Vip's the ability to unlock 1 character slots access to the moors. Once this is done you cannot switch it to another slot unless the character is deleted. Then allow additional slots to be unlocked with TP as the other classes are on creepside. This will bring more action to the moors and a nice cash flow to Turbine.

Although is not 100% clear, I seems what are suggesting is that non-VIPs get to choose the one Freep character they can take to the Moors at no cost. Similar to the existing starter Reaver. You get to choose the character.

I don't see how this proposal generates any additional revenue for Turbine. The way I see it:

1) Existing VIP customers cancel their VIP because they can take their one character to the Moors costing Turbine at least 100 dollars a year.

2) Existing Premium and Free customers can send a Freep character to the Moors without paying anything.

Turbine gets increased load on the Moors and less money. According to Turbine the reason they do not sell Freep character unlocks or a Moors region access for non-VIPs is there is no money in it. Turbine has a sweet system. You want access you have to buy Game Time. Moors access is the only VIP benefit that we have. Everything else you buy in the Lotro Store. Or get via a one time Game Time purchase.

Bottom Line - I can see why customers would want a non VIP Freep access offerring to the Moors. It would save the customers dollars. I do not see how it makes any economic sense to Turbine. Without a dollar benefit to Turbine it is not going to happen.

There is another problem. It is likely to result in no combat in the Moors. There will be so many Freeps. The Creeps will stay logged out. Being butchered every time they leave a rally circle or Gram is zero fun. This situation could be solved via population shaping. I doubt people would like to be told - There are too many Freeps (or Creeps) in the Moors currently. You have been queued for a slot.

Originally Posted by Legothas

If this idea won't work then how about putting back pre-paid lotro cards that instead of giving tp will let you be vip(and give some tp maybe). That's a profitable method.

You mean like these?

http://www.lotro.com/support/1210-60-day-game-time-card

Another angle to consider is that an influx of Freeps into the Moors would probably help increase the number of Creeps as well, which would in turn help the sales of Creep classes in the Turbine store.

Originally Posted by jugger181

To be similar to creepside give the non Vip's the ability to unlock 1 character slots access to the moors. Once this is done you cannot switch it to another slot unless the character is deleted. Then allow additional slots to be unlocked with TP as the other classes are on creepside. This will bring more action to the moors and a nice cash flow to Turbine.

Brilliant, I'm sure turbine would make money off of this once people got a taste of the pvp. And to the dissenter saying balance would be shifted, having to level a freep keeps that in check. If things become overwhelming on the freep side, just buff creeps again. Problem solved.

/signed

Originally Posted by Y
There is another problem. [B

It is likely to result in no combat in the Moors[/B]. There will be so many Freeps. The Creeps will stay logged out. Being butchered every time they leave a rally circle or Gram is zero fun. This situation could be solved via population shaping. I doubt people would like to be told - There are too many Freeps (or Creeps) in the Moors currently. You have been queued for a slot.

I completely disagree here. Before F2P everyone had moors access. Did we have no combat? Were creeps butchered everytime they left the rally pt?. No...if anything right now the creeps have a larger player base. There are ways to make sure turbine still gets their money. Require the non VIP toon to reach level cap first (this would require them to have spent a ton fo TP or cash on zones/quest packs/expansions). Dont give them one for free would be another option.

Originally Posted by jugger181

To be similar to creepside give the non Vip's the ability to unlock 1 character slots access to the moors. Once this is done you cannot switch it to another slot unless the character is deleted. Then allow additional slots to be unlocked with TP as the other classes are on creepside. This will bring more action to the moors and a nice cash flow to Turbine.

Right now people spend $10-15/month to access the moors on their freeps, you need to replace that income as well as recover the development and increased support costs.

Please detail what you will be spending actual money on and how often; extrapolate this to the larger population and how you think they will act. I see you asking for free permanent moors access for 1 toon. Will you be buying skills? Traits? Store pots? Gear? (and consider the impact that store PVP-quality gear and weapons will have on the player base when the game becomes pay to win). To bolster your case, examine the impact this will have on current subscriptions. Once you've demonstrated that free, permanent end game access for your freep is cash flow positive, then Turbine will be willing to take a look at your proposal.

Well if all those VIP's dropped their subs in order to have free moors they would have to purchase all the zones/raids/skirms that they normally do when not in the moors.

Another idea. A certain amount of TP buys a certain length of moors access.

And to be honest if all a person does is moors and nothing else...there is no reason to pay for the game as they could park their toon in the moors. Drop their sub, and be perma in the moors.

Originally Posted by jugger181

And to be honest if all a person does is moors and nothing else...there is no reason to pay for the game as they could park their toon in the moors. Drop their sub, and be perma in the moors.

That bug was fixed recently. Without an active subscription, they get ported out of the Ettenmoors on login now.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Ringer88

Brilliant, I'm sure turbine would make money off of this once people got a taste of the pvp.

That is the ever recurring hope of the ardent Pv(M)P folks. Notice that before f2p when *everyone* had access, the Ettenmoors weren't all that heavily populated. What makes you think it would work better under the proposed scheme? Rather...wouldn't it be a case that those that like PvMP and are on non-VIP accounts would split between creep (which they have access to now) and freep (which they would gain)? Why would any ADDITIONAL players start playing in the Ettenmoors?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring as someone who also does not see a financial gain for Turbine for doing this. The only reason I subscribe is for moors access, if I could go for free I would cancel my subscription, I mean why pay for something other people are getting for free?

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

There is another problem. It is likely to result in no combat in the Moors. There will be so many Freeps. The Creeps will stay logged out. Being butchered every time they leave a rally circle or Gram is zero fun. This situation could be solved via population shaping. I doubt people would like to be told - There are too many Freeps (or Creeps) in the Moors currently. You have been queued for a slot.

disagree on this one. One of the big problems we have right now, is there aren't enough freeps in the moors. And there needs to be an incentive that brings more freep out. I think it will actually work the population sway to be a little less on one side. Being that so much of the PVE content is F2P, There needs to be a way to bring in more people to pvp. We have a great amount of pvpers. but more is always better. And more freeps is good.

And I have to add that it's not fair that US and UK players can get VIP game cards very easily, while most of the EU can't, unless they have a credit card. So the only way for me to get content is to play the game (and occasionally buying TP game cards on the internet if I find them, but not VIP, as it's nearly impossible to find in EU without a credit card).
So my prediction is in the future they could add more perks for subscribers, while making Ettenmoors unlockable in the Store.

How bout this: Pay as you go type of access, 1700 tp per month for Freep access for those FTP players that just want to PVMP. That can make Turbine Some cash.

Hey, just my two cents (or $9.99 a month). I keep reading about what a great cash influx the free access would bring. Well, first off we have the players who pay a monthly fee to access the Freep side. Cross off or reduce that monthly subscription fee. No increase there.

Then we have those who would gladly spend money as Premium Players, just not $9.99 a month? Okay, well they are premium players and as a VIP they would get 500 points a month. Obviously they would want points to help out with the costs of being a premium player, Given that most value the points as a penny a point on average, that's really an additional cost of $5.00 a month to be VIP and have better PvE and full access to the Moors.

So how much money, given that $10 a month is too steep with 500 points thrown in, and many restrictions removed, is too much; are they willing to spend? It really does not take a Harvard economist to surmise that the answer is not very much. I'm also willing to bet that the bean counters at Turbine came to the same conclusion.

If you already have a capped out Freep then as many pointed out, odds are you ditch the monthly bill and pay almost nothing. Odds are you either spent money to unlock what you desire already or are downgrading from a VIP subscription to (drum roll) reduce what you are spending a month.

If you are not a one of the above, then you have a lot of content, traits, and restrictions to unlock to play as a viable Freep. Adding in additional expenses to access the Moors pretty much makes that a deal breaker as it makes the VIP deal seem more cost effective at least in the short term.

So you either price it so low or give it away, and maybe break even with the lost subscriptions being replaced by occasional purchases or keep it as a VIP benefit as it is now and come out pretty much the same. Problem is, once you open those floodgates to premium players, it's hard to close them down the line when revenue declines. That means make it up in other areas. In other words, everyone winds up paying more for a zone they might not enjoy.

Here is how these suggestions often turn about, and not just with PvP:

1. They should add "X" to the game, I would gladly pay for that.
2. "X" should be easy and cheap enough to implement, the price for "X" should be low.
3. Most games already have "X"; if they add "X" the company will bring in hoards of players and revenue will skyrocket.
4. Since Turbine should already have "X" in the game, not to mention they would gain $$$; "X" should be free.
5. Well, if the F2P (we ignore Premium by choice, even if you paid money, it makes our argument better) gets this free, then I better get compensated for "X" not being a exclusive benefit as a VIP.
6. Since "X" was never included in the lifetime subscription (in this case it was) , I don't wish to see "X" implemented and have lawyers on retainer waiting to sue everyone.

Just my view, I could be wrong.

How to monetize PVMP? The same way every single other quest, instance, skirmish, raid, deed, trait slot, bag slot, craft guild, every big to small thing in the game has been monetized.

Sell access to map, sell access to chest usage, make non-subscribers pay every time they rank up, sell commendation bonus, sell commendation cap removal, on top of all the existing PVMP related store items. Plenty of things to sell.

Why did Turbine sell permanent access to any content at all when they could have, according to the logic of some here, earn more by keeping them all exclusive to subscribers on a rental basis?

Some people assume subscribing is the only way to pay, which we already know is untrue based on the greater success of the hybrid F2P model Turbine adopted over the original subscription model. Different people like to pay for different things and pay via different means.

The anti-anything-PVP dissenters are always saying the same things:-
- only reason to subscribe anymore is PVMP, adding any form of moors access to store will result in major loss of subscriptions, and
- PVMP is an unpopular activity that only a small minority participates in.

These are conflicting statements. You're either saying there aren't many subscribers to begin with (because PVP is supposedly unpopular), or saying that most subscribers participate in PVP (which contradicts the idea the PVP is not popular). Which is it?

There may be diehard PVP fans who subscribe solely for moors access, but it cannot possibly constitute the majority of subscribers. After all, this is supposedly a game with focus on PVE. There are reasons enough why even a non-PVPer would subscribe, i.e. for access to all PVE content, instead of access to one single PVP map.

On the other hand, relative to the population of hardcore PVPers, there are possibly many more casuals who are interested in PVP enough to be willing to pay separately for some form of access, but not interested enough to justify the full commitment to a subscriber status. This is money Turbine will never get for as long as Turbine keeps moors access to that specific subset who both subscribes and PVP.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

The anti-anything-PVP dissenters are always saying the same things:-
- only reason to subscribe anymore is PVMP, adding any form of moors access to store will result in major loss of subscriptions, and
- PVMP is an unpopular activity that only a small minority participates in.

Law of the Excluded Middle fallacy.

This has nothing to do with those of us who oppose expanding PvMP (indeed, if you read over my comments in this thread, I have NOT said that "Turbine shouldn't do this", I have consistently said "I don't see a way Turbine can do this in an economically viable way."

You have excluded the people who maintain VIP status for reasons *other* than access to freep PvMP, and there are probably a lot more people in that category than there are those who are VIPs solely for freep PvMP.

These are conflicting statements. You're either saying there aren't many subscribers to begin with (because PVP is supposedly unpopular), or saying that most subscribers participate in PVP (which contradicts the idea the PVP is not popular). Which is it?

There is no conflict there. People who maintain VIP accounts for freep PvMP are a subset of those that maintain VIP accounts. They may very well be a small (or even, very small) subset. What is known is that at least some people that maintain VIP accounts have publicly stated that, should there be a way to obtain freep PvMP access without a VIP account, they will drop their VIP status. It is *those* accounts that any alternative means of such access much show a way to offset the loss of revenue--regardless of their actual number.

There may be diehard PVP fans who subscribe solely for moors access, but it cannot possibly constitute the majority of subscribers.

They certainly exist (some have posted in this thread). I agree that they are very unlikely to be a majority of subscribers, but you still have to take that part of the current revenue stream into account.

On the other hand, relative to the population of hardcore PVPers, there are possibly many more casuals who are interested in PVP enough to be willing to pay separately for some form of access, but not interested enough to justify the full commitment to a subscriber status. This is money Turbine will never get for as long as Turbine keeps moors access to that specific subset who both subscribes and PVP.

As Zarador showed, an effective payment of $5 per month appears to be too much. Just how do you propose to extract enough money from those casuals to cover the development cost AND the loss in revenues from such VIPs as would drop their accounts to premium as well?

And as for your initial idea of just charging for everything in the Ettenmoors or an item by item basis...I can only imagine the squeals of outrage about being "nickeled and dimed to death" over THAT, should it ever come to pass.

Basically the problem is that it would cost Turbine to make the changes requested without any clear path--at least not a clear path that wouldn't give them even more grief from demanding, nay, "entitled" players, than they get already--to their bottom line.

So far, I don't see a way that would actually work for Turbine. If you find such a way, go ahead and drop a note to Sapience or Celestrata if you want to suggest it directly, or post it here to see if it can survive the rigors of open discussion.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

This situation could be solved via population shaping. I doubt people would like to be told - There are too many Freeps (or Creeps) in the Moors currently. You have been queued for a slot.

On our server the problem most the time is way too many freeps until late evening. Going F2P will kill everything. Though what Yula said, although people wouldn't like it, is actually a very good idea. Make a queue for the Ettenmoors and let it go free to play, or add neither. Either that, or make the outnumbered buff actually useful.

What about this idea. So Turbine can Earn money. For non VIP. turbine charge 500 tp. For so many hours in the moors. It has a timer. Let say 2 hours. If you play 30 Mins it save the 1 hour 30 mins for next time you want to play Mores. You can use what left on your Moors time.

Originally Posted by whheydt

And as for your initial idea of just charging for everything in the Ettenmoors or an item by item basis...I can only imagine the squeals of outrage about being "nickeled and dimed to death" over THAT, should it ever come to pass.

Again, Turbine is already selling many other things on an item by item basis: every single craft guild has to be unlocked separately, every single trait slot has to be unlocked separately, skirmishes can be bought individually, quests and instances can be bought separately, etc.

Selling individual moors features would be no different and no deviation from what Turbine is already doing in any way.

Premium players who are already used to the a la carte payment model would have no issue at all, because that's exactly what the premium model is about: you get to choose and buy individual items that you want when you want.

It will just be those who drop subscription because they assume they can finally play for "free" who will find themselves in a shock over the nickel-and-diming that "free" players have to go through.

You have to remember that Moors is permanent end game, other quest packs you level through them and then you need to buy the next one, either for leveling or for current end game. You need to devise a constant stream of income, which seems to fit the time rental aspect of the moors better.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Again, Turbine is already selling many other things on an item by item basis: every single craft guild has to be unlocked separately, every single trait slot has to be unlocked separately, skirmishes can be bought individually, quests and instances can be bought separately, etc.

Selling individual moors features would be no different and no deviation from what Turbine is already doing in any way.

Premium players who are already used to the a la carte payment model would have no issue at all, because that's exactly what the premium model is about: you get to choose and buy individual items that you want when you want.

It will just be those who drop subscription because they assume they can finally play for "free" who will find themselves in a shock over the nickel-and-diming that "free" players have to go through.

Respectfully, what would a Freep need to unlock in PvP? Unless I am mistaken, which I may very well be, the majority of their progression is through PvE playing and then using those skills & abilities in PvP. Creeps, being locked into the Moors are easier to build a micro-transaction around. If you only play Creep side as your game then your dollars go only to supporting a Creep in the Moors. If you want to play a Freep, then you pay for every aspect (save Creep) in the game. That could be costly since you have to invest in PvE and The Moors.

Referring to sticker shock of a VIP dropping to premium, I don't think it's very great. They already reached cap if they are serious about the moors and have most the coveted items that premium players desire already unlocked. Since they already invested a decent sum of real life coin to get to where they are, they won't be nickled and dimed as you say.

Adding another level of expense to the premium player won't encourage them to spend more out of pocket when it gets close to the cost of a subscription.

Restaurants in real life tend to use the above to their advantage. Do I buy the meal, drinks, desert, soup and appetizers all a'la'carte or go for the full package that will save me money? The restaurant wants you to spend a minimum set amount. So adding those cheap items to make it a package entices people to spend that amount. You might have went in with the idea of spending $8, but $12 for everything appears to be too good of a deal to pass up. I mean if I decide at the end of that $8 meal that I want a slice of pie and some coffee it's gonna cost me $12 anyway, oh, what the heck, give me the special!

I'm not saying your suggestion is not valid or good. I just don't see how they can squeeze more money out of a premium player without reaching that threshold where subscribing is a better option for many.

Originally Posted by jugger181

To be similar to creepside give the non Vip's the ability to unlock 1 character slots access to the moors. Once this is done you cannot switch it to another slot unless the character is deleted. Then allow additional slots to be unlocked with TP as the other classes are on creepside. This will bring more action to the moors and a nice cash flow to Turbine.

Great suggestion!

I know lots of players who do buy Turbine points often but don't buy VIP membership, This way these players can try out PvP as freeps (will be good to see some new faces in the moors)

Some might say we end up having too many freeps but that is another problem which should be solved by giving creeps better buffs/dps.

Originally Posted by Martwen

Great suggestion!

I know lots of players who do buy Turbine points often but don't buy VIP membership, This way these players can try out PvP as freeps (will be good to see some new faces in the moors)

Or, since you say they spend money on points, they could buy one month of VIP which has quite a bit of value add through the things it unlocks for all characters logged in during that period) and try PvMP.

The problem is...what makes you think there are all that many more people that *want* to try PvMP and will stay with it if they do?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

./signed

It makes sense that you allow one character from each side to play for free. I would assume if they did this they would choose the first character ever created on your account. This way, if you want to play another toon that you really like rather than the first one, you'd have to pay for VIP. This would be a perfect teaser! They do this on Creepside, so why not Freepside? Worth a shot I think.

Originally Posted by Zarador

Respectfully, what would a Freep need to unlock in PvP? Unless I am mistaken, which I may very well be, the majority of their progression is through PvE playing and then using those skills & abilities in PvP. Creeps, being locked into the Moors are easier to build a micro-transaction around. If you only play Creep side as your game then your dollars go only to supporting a Creep in the Moors. If you want to play a Freep, then you pay for every aspect (save Creep) in the game. That could be costly since you have to invest in PvE and The Moors.

As opposed to having to invest in only PVE, because a premium Freep has no access to the Moors at all and therefore has neither reason nor avenue to invest in the moors in any way. I don't see how this translates to more money for Turbine.

Adding another level of expense to the premium player won't encourage them to spend more out of pocket when it gets close to the cost of a subscription.

If you can agree that most subscribers probably do subscribe for reasons more than just moors access, that there is more value to a subscription than just moors access -- which is true, a subscription includes access to far more content and features than just the moors alone -- then there is even less incentive right now for a premium player who's already heavily invested in all those content and features to pay an additional rental fee just for moors access alone, when that rental fee is meant for access to not just the moors, but also to everything else that the premium player has already paid for and own permanent access to.

To use your restaurant example, if I bought and paid for a $4 steak and a $4 salad off the a la carte menu, and I later noticed that there's a $10 set meal that includes the steak, the salad, and a soup, and I decided that I'd like to have the soup too, you're saying it makes sense for the restaurant to insist on me paying $10 just for the soup -- even though I don't need the steak and the salad, because I already paid for them and already had them -- instead of letting me pay another $4 for the soup alone.

In that case I rather not have that soup at all. The restaurant could have earned an extra $4 from me, I'd end up paying $2 more than someone who bought the set meal, but because the restaurant insists on getting an extra $10 from me, they end up not getting that money at all.

That is what moors access is to premium players now.

You seem to have the assumption that a premium player is a person who wants to pay less than a regular subscriber. That is not necessarily true. A premium player is just a person who prefers to pay in a different way.

Referring to sticker shock of a VIP dropping to premium, I don't think it's very great. They already reached cap if they are serious about the moors and have most the coveted items that premium players desire already unlocked. Since they already invested a decent sum of real life coin to get to where they are, they won't be nickled and dimed as you say.

A subscriber who cancels subscription right now loses access to many instances, skirmishes, and quite a few raids. He will also lose access to many quests and deeds and get locked out of progression with crafting guild.

The only things that such a person gets to keep is progress that is already made, but he won't be able to progress further. That's where the nickel-and-diming starts.

There is inertia both ways. For a person who's been subscribing for a long time, cancelling subscription right now would mean having to invest a huge sum of money for access to many things that he's been renting for a long time. For a person who's been buying individual features for a long time, subscribing right now would mean having to pay for redundant rented access to things he's already have access to. It's not attractive either way.