Thread: Never Surrender lets you die?!?

Hey folks, I've been playing LOTRO for a long time now but only off and on. About a year ago I started a Warden and have been enjoying him since, he is now 50 and I got super excited to get Never Surrender (I knew nothing of his upcoming skills as I like the surprise). However, I've used it a few times now (some for fun and some for need) and in every case it has worked to heal me once or twice and then let me die. This has happened each time within the first minute or so of having it on, well before the five minutes it says it will last. What is going on here, is this normal?

Also, I've noticed that Javelin of Deadly force misses at least twice as often as any of my other javelin skills, which is really disappointing, especially since its a legendary trait skill.

Basically, I've enjoyed the Wardens ability to do so much all along, but I'm tired of the "best" skills not working or being under powered (take the legendary stance for example since it only lasts for 30 seconds), though I feel like the class overall may be overpowered.

I guess I'm just looking for feedback on how some of these should work and if I'm playing like an idiot or something.

Thanks!

Never Surrender only heals you once in the 5 minutes the buff is active I thought. It doesn't mean every time you fall below 10% Morale that it will heal you for 50% Morale/Power. It is good to use if you're low on Morale and know that some big spike damage is coming before you or your healer is able to top you up. I could be wrong... but I have always just noticed it healing me once in the 5 minutes.

In the tool tip of the skill it says "You Cannot be Defeated." This should work like the Captains Last Stand skill.

In the Moors when I have it active sometimes I will die when the DPS is just outright insane. I've also had this happen in Orthanc. Sometimes the skill works sometime it does not. It's kind of like when you fall to 10% if that 10% is Damaged through before the heal can take effect you are defeated.

The skill tooltip could use some clarification. It works once to heal you for the amount shown. Then the buff is removed.

If it truly did not let you die for 5 minutes it would be the most op skill in the history of op skills in the land of OP Skills.

i noticed the same a few times. I clearly had NS up and it wouldn't heal me, bugged imo

Yep, it will save you only once in the 5 minutes it lasts. Then you have to wait for the cooldown to be over before you can use it again.

I assume it will give a heal if you drop below 10% but not 0%. so if you are at 11% and get hit for 12% your defeated not healed but if it hits for 4% then it will heal you. For me its an awesome skill but as a note if my morale is at 10% I have done it wrong or taken on too much. Its a nice to have hope I don't need skill.

So it seems to me that the tooltip just needs a rewording to note that it only works once, however the "you cannot be defeated" should work like the Captain's Last Stand and prevent you from dying even if you get hit for more than 10%. Oddly though, I could have sworn it did heal me twice the first time I used it.

I think I'll go test it against some elite or group of sigs and let myself get down low to see how it really works, then I'll know for sure...

Thanks for all the feedback people.

I've already died with Never Surrender, so i can assume it ends after the first heal

Never Surrender will only fire once in the duration of the 5 minute span. It will not save you for the duration of the 5 minutes if you fall below 10% multiple times. It fires once so use it wisely.

Originally Posted by gelleg

I assume it will give a heal if you drop below 10% but not 0%. so if you are at 11% and get hit for 12% your defeated not healed but if it hits for 4% then it will heal you. For me its an awesome skill but as a note if my morale is at 10% I have done it wrong or taken on too much. Its a nice to have hope I don't need skill.

False. This has been gone over before. If you have 3k morale left and take a 5,000,000,000,000,000K hit with NS up you will not die. The only exception is one shot mechanics like falling off a cliff in moria, lava floor in the pits, Draigoch's firebreath while running through his little maze and he is peeping through the holes looking for intruders (what a paranoid little guy. spends day after day, year after year just looking though holes.) besides- mathematcially 0%<10% so the heal should fire with the skill description. (if your ever in a spot where you should die but NS heals you, you will not go past 1 morale.)

Working As Intended. Only saves your butt a maximum of ONE TIME PER USE.

Originally Posted by liposuction89

Also, I've noticed that Javelin of Deadly force misses at least twice as often as any of my other javelin skills, which is really disappointing, especially since its a legendary trait skill.

Did you run a test on that?

I guess it's not that JODF in itself has a higher chance to miss than other javelin skills.

It could be rather that you, like I am, are using JODF often while moving around, thus increasing your chance to miss.

Another thing to consider is JODF is affecting multiple targets, so there is always a higher chance you will see a "Missed"

on one of your foes compared to a single target javelin skill (assuming equal chance to miss on all skills).

So it could very well be your imagination that the chance to miss on JODF is higher.

I am not saying you're wrong, but I see no evidence your claim is true.

Originally Posted by gelleg

For me its an awesome skill but as a note if my morale is at 10% I have done it wrong or taken on too much.

Really big hits happen and sometimes there's nothing you can do about it.

Originally Posted by Deluphor

Did you run a test on that?

I guess it's not that JODF in itself has a higher chance to miss than other javelin skills.

It could be rather that you, like I am, are using JODF often while moving around, thus increasing your chance to miss.

Another thing to consider is JODF is affecting multiple targets, so there is always a higher chance you will see a "Missed"

on one of your foes compared to a single target javelin skill (assuming equal chance to miss on all skills).

So it could very well be your imagination that the chance to miss on JODF is higher.

I am not saying you're wrong, but I see no evidence your claim is true.

To that, I would add that, for most of your javelin skills, you turn the direction of the target, toss and move. For JoDF, it goes the direction you are facing, regardless if the mob you have targeted is 5 degrees to your right, 90 degrees to your left or 180 behind you. The skill fires where you are looking, not where the target is.

Originally Posted by gelleg

I assume it will give a heal if you drop below 10% but not 0%. so if you are at 11% and get hit for 12% your defeated not healed but if it hits for 4% then it will heal you. For me its an awesome skill but as a note if my morale is at 10% I have done it wrong or taken on too much. Its a nice to have hope I don't need skill.

Theoretically it will not let you drop below 1 hp while NS is active. I find myself using it once I am below the 10% threshold as it is still bugged and certain damage over time effects will not trigger it. Huge pain.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

...Draigoch's firebreath while running through his little maze and he is peeping through the holes looking for intruders (what a paranoid little guy. spends day after day, year after year just looking though holes.)...

On a side note, I have noticed that I can turn on forced march and just run through the hallways, run speed allowed me to get through the damage area before he could breathe fire after the identification animation. Used to be the case anyways, haven't run Draig since U6.

After doing some grouping on the weekend I can confirm that it heals once within the 5 minutes. Kind of handy to put up even if you don't use it if you know a fight is going to be no longer then 5 minutes. It also does not protect you from certain mechanics as others have said. IE, putting it on and jumping off a cliff will not do you much good. I was doing a Foundry run the other night and I had it on, got punted into the wall (instant death) and it did in fact kill me even though my morale said 1/18,000 when I was dead. Ha ha.

Originally Posted by Deluphor

Did you run a test on that?

I guess it's not that JODF in itself has a higher chance to miss than other javelin skills.

It could be rather that you, like I am, are using JODF often while moving around, thus increasing your chance to miss.

Another thing to consider is JODF is affecting multiple targets, so there is always a higher chance you will see a "Missed"

on one of your foes compared to a single target javelin skill (assuming equal chance to miss on all skills).

So it could very well be your imagination that the chance to miss on JODF is higher.

I am not saying you're wrong, but I see no evidence your claim is true.

In addition to this... JoDF is shoting where you are facing. If you're not facing mobs, it will miss.

Never Surrender is a lot better than what it used to be. It used to be a skill that only got rid of dread after you die.

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

In addition to this... JoDF is shoting where you are facing. If you're not facing mobs, it will miss.

This. I have seen a couple of Wardens toss JoDF into the unknown. I guess many think that it goes to the target. It is our FPS skill. Point and toss.

EDIT: Let it be known that in the heat of things... tossing javelins willy nilly I have been known to not turn quick enough with a JoDF before. He he. Only to have it splinter against a wall with my enemies staring at me in confusion.

NS still fails to fire off like should be intended.

It is a continual source of frustration.

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

In addition to this... JoDF is shoting where you are facing. If you're not facing mobs, it will miss.

It will also miss if you are on an incline and the mobs are above you. Seems to just go straight into the ground and dissipate.

Originally Posted by Untg99

NS still fails to fire off like should be intended.

It is a continual source of frustration.

It's been a while, and I'm necroing, but in the interest of not creating new threads for old news/subjects...

Has there been much change in this behaviour? Frankly, I think it's safe to say I've never used Never Surrender before last night. I have a lowbie warden (lvl 50 now) running through Eregion. I thought I'd give Hosh (lvl 50 Rare Elite Master warg) a shot, so I went into Determination, slugged some food down and started running through shield gambits on him to avoid getting downed. It didn't go well and I Hobbit-fainted out of aggro. After grabbing the nearby ore node, I said.. "Wait! I forgot about this skill I just got: Never Surrender.." So, I regened, and set on Hosh again. I enabled NS, and was dead before I ever went below 10% the first time. I cannot be absolutely, 100% sure that all my ducks were lined up, but I'm pretty sure I never got much below 25% in the first few seconds of the fight, but then suddenly I was defeated. It was definitely active, and the fight definitely didn't last 5 min. The combat tab showed the damage he did was a critical hit, but it wasn't huge.

I am disappoint! (but I'm very open to just being a n00b in this case. If concensus is that the skill is WAI, I may try once more and be much more discretely vigilante on the progression, but I'm pretty sure I didn't go below 10% 2x in this fight)

Its a valuable skill and certainly has saved my butt many a time. It just has that one qwerk that you have to be below 10% and above 0 for it to work. Its rare that it fails really I have only seen it happen once but it does happen. The reason it happens is the npc's get the first turn in combat. This means npc damage is computed before our damage or skills are done. At least that is my observation since I have seen time and again I start combat with EOB and it doesn't fire because the npc chose to stun me out of the gate.

Originally Posted by gelleg

..The reason it happens is the npc's get the first turn in combat. This means npc damage is computed before our damage or skills are done...

I don't dispute this theory as it makes sense, BUT, for the record, I remember engaging NS before even aggroing Hosh last night because I was pretty sure the fight would not really go 5min, and if it did, I'd know long before that if I had a chance of winning or not.. I've never before been silly enough to attempt a Rare Elite Master solo even on a Warden, but it just felt worth trying, 'cause Wardens are Wardens. Hosh is a bastiage, to be sure, so if it's just not possible to survive him solo on level even with a Warden, that's fine, but I (like an earlier poster) was definitely fooled by the simple statement in the Tool Tip: "You cannot be defeated." ARGH! Get the Tool Tip police on this one.. I mean, if you can be defeated while NS is active, then this statement just needs to be written in a way that makes sense.. (or at least add an asterisk.. heh!)

ns doesn't work if you are defeated from a single hit when you are above 10%. That is the point. For example, I have 17.4k morale I drop to 1.8k in a fight with ns up. The next hit is for 1.9k morale after mitigation and bam I am defeated. Once you hit 0% ns can't fire in fact when you revive its buff will still be there and will still work actually. Its a near defeat response not a defeat response. So it is not a get out of defeat free card.

Originally Posted by gelleg

ns doesn't work if you are defeated from a single hit when you are above 10%.

..Its a near defeat response not a defeat response. So it is not a get out of defeat free card.

I'll have to live with that, but it points to one of those nagging, ongoing issues between (my personal understanding of game systems) and reality. I saw nothing in the dialogues when buying the skill or on the tool tip to suggest the statement, "you cannot be defeated," came with caveats. If it does, no prob.. That's of course why I came to search the fora. But, it would be nice to know that when you spend silver to get the skill.. heh!

Originally Posted by gelleg

ns doesn't work if you are defeated from a single hit when you are above 10%...

Oh, and not to belabour, but...

My 50 Hobbit Lass Warden is sitting at about 3600 morale, and virtues are stacked for resistances (not stacked too high, but adequate for level at between 3 & 6 for stuff like Charity, Confidence, Innocence, etc). The combat log didn't show a big critical that would have been larger than 360, and I wasn't down to 10%. Again, I'm fairly sure, but not clad-in-stone, 100% positive.. Will see if Hosh is still prowling around and try again if so, but I haven't seen him around there too much lately. (keep seeing Lugat(?sp) the Dunlending chieftain guy over behind the encampment to the south of Dunann)

Originally Posted by gelleg

I assume it will give a heal if you drop below 10% but not 0%. so if you are at 11% and get hit for 12% your defeated not healed but if it hits for 4% then it will heal you.

I think that's it... it sucks that it works like that, tho. =/



And, come on, guys... you want a 5min Last Stand??? LOL...

Originally Posted by Herja

..And, come on, guys... you want a 5min Last Stand??? LOL...

I can only speak for myself but, it's not that I WANT a 5min Last Stand. It's that the tool tip (and I don't think anything else in game) doesn't tell you it's NOT a 5min Last Stand. As you can see, I have an 85 Warden, so I've been playing the class a while now, BUT, I don't group so I don't tank much (skirmishes once in a while), and I have pretty much never used the skill until now. I knew there had been changes, but didn't remember what they amounted to. Considering how much anti-love the game designers have shown the class (whether intended or inadvertent), I just couldn't be sure if what I was seeing was what I was supposed to be seeing..