Thread: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things

Originally Posted by jeanperson

so downing let say 3 mobs at same time would grant 3 charisma that would take 30 to 60 seconds to fade away.

Don't like the fading idea. Fervor, Focus, attunement, don't disappear in-combat. Besides it'd just lead to me looking at timers going "im about to lose a pip, better use rally cry".

Originally Posted by jeanperson

the only issue here is that LtC will build more easily Charisma since he get more crit from PA or DB, and that would bring futher more imbalance.

Yeah... But that is how it is currently. Meaning... You get many more crit responses from running LtC than any other line.

Originally Posted by Armitas

That would induce more fluxuation to inspire and idome, and return thoughtless RC dumping into the mix again. Also I don't think that is sustainable by crits.


If you go over the real numbers I think you will see how little the increase truly is. Idome provides a 1.2% - 1.4% actual increase to mastery, and 225 health at the full 75 points. The inspire buff at cap would only be about 60health per tick of shield bro inspire, much less on any other.

but again

If they are too high make them lower in your head. It's concept only, with numbers to help move it along.

I already said that I like that Idea and understand that value are meant to be balanced in beta and don't argue about value... just I think that a passive buff to IDoME and Inspire is too much Imo, it's would end up into either case:

1) value gain will be insignifiant and poeple will ignore it and just use charisma when needed, but you will generate so much gain and drop stats in unpredictable pattern that it will just cause an unnecessary flow of data to some player (not me but many that I know) that got already got lag issues.

2) value gain will be so significant that keeping charisma all the fight will provide more benefit to the whole fellowship then actually using the charisma.

Either case the IDoME buff from charisma is, Imho, unnecessary or a bad idea.

By unpredictable pattern I mean that servers in mmo use anticipation so a fading delay is a predictable pattern that don't require information event update from the server, the client can manage it, but a flow of stat change every time you use Charisma is unpredictable and require actualization of all stats everytime.

Beside for Inspire as I said healing spec already get the increase of healing per charisma so there is no need to give that to not healing spec.

But I like the idea, even tho, that I have suggested in my own wishlist to make a trait that would make Rallying Cry consume and require Hardenned Stance instead of defeat response, so HoH cappy would still need to get into melee and would intead of BoE use RC, this will fix the RC gaped and make it useful when needed, and make charisma much less needed, Still I like your idea and think that it might fit along my own wishlist.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

Don't like the fading idea. Fervor, Focus, attunement, don't disappear in-combat. Besides it'd just lead to me looking at timers going "im about to lose a pip, better use rally cry".


Yeah... But that is how it is currently. Meaning... You get many more crit responses from running LtC than any other line.

I know still keeping all the defeat event until OOC would be too much imo, and will just make LtC cappy further better healer, keep in mind that only Rally cry can get CD redux to 15 sec., considering the defeat event LtC got more he will be further more able, in any situations, to just keep Rally Cry on CD.

I stilll think that it should fade in-combat , the delay value remain to be fixed after further testing tho.

On the other Hand I just noticed that I failed ot see that you fixed a 4 stack cap, well I would rather remove the cap but set a fading that would almost end up into an effective cap.

Still my idea was to just make defeat event delay legacy to the captain instead it would end up the same by allowing to fill the gap.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Either case the IDoME buff from charisma is, Imho, unnecessary or a bad idea.

By unpredictable pattern I mean that servers in mmo use anticipation so a fading delay is a predictable pattern that don't require information event update from the server, the client can manage it, but a flow of stat change every time you use Charisma is unpredictable and require actualization of all stats everytime.

I am not able to verify the limitations of the servers and how this would effect it, however we use to fluctuate IDOME every 5min, and each class has limlight jewelry that fluctuates stats on a regular basis.

As far as the values imagine them balanced, they do not need to be in 2 extreme categories of OP or UP. You can't go from over powered to underpowered without stopping by balanced on the way.

Originally Posted by Armitas

As far as the values imagine them balanced, they do not need to be in 2 extreme categories of OP or UP. You can't go from over powered to underpowered without stopping by balanced on the way.

I see your point.

And keep in mind that I made my feedback ignoring the 4 stack cap.

but then what is the max of Charisma you can have? 5 like fervour or 9 like focus?

I still think that or the stat buff from charisma gonna be or not enought relevant or gonna be too much relevent, and cappy would rather not consume Charisma anymore and just keep the buff on, well I would prolly do that.

Still I don't like that cappy got now an Aura, IDoME used to be a buff like motivating speech; the aura of cappy were supposed to be the Banner and in my on Wishlist...

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...53#post6236253

... I made that IDoME buff the Banner and otivation speech instead

I also want a Trait that make RC require battle-hardenned state instead of defeat event, and made LtC capstone to get a -30 seconds CD Redux to Routing Cry...

I still try to fiogure out how to intergrate your Charisma into it...if you can help me there, you're welcome.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

but then what is the max of Charisma you can have? 5 like fervour or 9 like focus?

i believe the plan was a max of 4. A number reasonably achievable in most raids; although like all other numbers this is open for debate.

An other option would be getting a skill, thats something like warden's battle-memory, but with the change of storing defeat responses.
This would work like: When you have a defeat-response and you press it, the defeat response is consumed and the skill gains one charge. A defeat response could be get from the skill only when you don't have this buff.

IDOME is a legendary trait always slotted => it makes captains have relatively only two legendary trait slots only.

Conclusion: Let's give us IDOME as a usual, trainable skill, and in it's place make a trait giving that skill. It would be just a lot easier for even the developers writing a new trait, then implementing a fully new class mechanism.
So the negativ effect of this skill: only that this is a skill, costing power and having an animation time(, stealing time from other things).

PS. If you say you don't have IDOME slotted, then rather search an other thread pls. :P

Originally Posted by Berf

An other option would be getting a skill, thats something like warden's battle-memory, but with the change of storing defeat responses.
This would work like: When you have a defeat-response and you press it, the defeat response is consumed and the skill gains one charge. A defeat response could be get from the skill only when you don't have this buff.

IDOME is a legendary trait always slotted => it makes captains have relatively only two legendary trait slots only.

Conclusion: Let's give us IDOME as a usual, trainable skill, and in it's place make a trait giving that skill. It would be just a lot easier for even the developers writing a new trait, then implementing a fully new class mechanism.
So the negativ effect of this skill: only that this is a skill, costing power and having an animation time(, stealing time from other things).

PS. If you say you don't have IDOME slotted, then rather search an other thread pls. :P

Not every Captain slots IDOME. In fact, there's some pretty convincing math behind not slotting it, some of which has been promulgated by some of the more prominent Captains on the forums.

Ignoring that, almost every class has a legendary skill that's nigh-imperative; no one class needs the special consideration of having a legendary skill downgraded to make room for others.

Charisma is still a good idea, in my book.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Not every Captain slots IDOME. In fact, there's some pretty convincing math behind not slotting it, some of which has been promulgated by some of the more prominent Captains on the forums.

Hear, hear!

@Berf: Fellowship Brother is the only Legendary that's nigh imperative.

i only slot idome when i'm drunk.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

i only slot idome when i'm drunk.

**nudge** You should stop drinking while you play.

I support this idea it might also give some more dept to the class.

After going through and reading the OP again.... I like the simplicity of Charisma, and it fits inline with a lot of the type of changes I would like to see in the captain class (a ton of minor stuff here and there that adds up to something extremely powerful).

After RoR goes live (and I hit 85), I'm probably going to rework the suggestion post (link: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...in-Improvement), OK if I integrate some of the Charisma concepts into it?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

After RoR goes live (and I hit 85), I'm probably going to rework the suggestion post (link: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...in-Improvement), OK if I integrate some of the Charisma concepts into it?

Please do. I'm more excited about the idea of a captain slowly changing the mood of a fight then the buffs I listed. There is something very cappyesque about inspiring a group full of dread and fear to courage and valor through the course of the fight. I can see it in my head now...the captain of the army makes an incredible blow, his allies see it and their mood, posture and faces change a bit each time. By 4 stacks their faces should look like the ones on the top left of your screen...full of fury and rage.

Originally Posted by Armitas

Please do. I'm more excited about the idea of a captain slowly changing the mood of a fight then the buffs I listed. There is something very cappyesque about inspiring a group full of dread and fear to courage and valor through the course of the fight. I can see it in my head now...the captain of the army makes an incredible blow, his allies see it and their mood, posture and faces change a bit each time. By 4 stacks their faces should look like the ones on the top left of your screen...full of fury and rage.

I like the lore of your idea! the other guy stated this:

Originally Posted by Frisco

That's exactly what will happen with Charisma.

Captain: "YEEEHAWWW!!!!!"

Minstrel: "What was that all about?"

Captain: "Just celebrating that orc I killed 7 minutes ago!"

Minstrel: "..."

I see it from a different point, it is more like all your army seeing that they are able to success thru fight and get inspired, it is leading the charge!

Also I still celebrate some fights I had in life...so whats the problem of beeing happy 7 min. after a fight? lol

It looks like the devs have responded to this with the implementation of a new minor weapon legacy for RoR:



When reading the original post I was thinking "OMG I want this sooooooo bad!!!" then as I went further along I was grateful for the posts made by RJFerret and Frisco that reminded me how much I love the captain class as it is!

While having the ability to use defeat response skills whenever I want would be really useful and convenient, it would definitely be less exciting. It would take away most of the challenge of having to react to the needs of the group in-the-moment. Having to DPS like crazy to kill something ASAP or chain through those DB/PAs like a madman praying for a crit because the group's dying or the boss is about to do something nasty if we don't get some serious War-cry going to get it down, etc... to me that is FUN and gets my blood pumping! That is why I LOVE the captain! Of course it makes things harder and causes defeat responses to go to waste, but the fun is in the challenge of it all! Having those limitations drives me to improve my game and aim ever higher to reach the best of my ability, and feeling the pride and joy when I achieve, or am a key component in achieving a victory because I had to work my butt off to defy the odds and overcome the barriers... it's an incredible ecstasy that I can get nowhere else!

So for me personally, I hope they don't change this mechanic! This new legacy will be great to have without sacrificing the thrill that comes with being a captain!

Originally Posted by Erethal

When reading the original post I was thinking "OMG I want this sooooooo bad!!!" then as I went further along I was grateful for the posts made by RJFerret and Frisco that reminded me how much I love the captain class as it is!

While having the ability to use defeat response skills whenever I want would be really useful and convenient, it would definitely be less exciting. It would take away most of the challenge of having to react to the needs of the group in-the-moment. Having to DPS like crazy to kill something ASAP or chain through those DB/PAs like a madman praying for a crit because the group's dying or the boss is about to do something nasty if we don't get some serious War-cry going to get it down, etc... to me that is FUN and gets my blood pumping! That is why I LOVE the captain! Of course it makes things harder and causes defeat responses to go to waste, but the fun is in the challenge of it all! Having those limitations drives me to improve my game and aim ever higher to reach the best of my ability, and feeling the pride and joy when I achieve, or am a key component in achieving a victory because I had to work my butt off to defy the odds and overcome the barriers... it's an incredible ecstasy that I can get nowhere else!

So for me personally, I hope they don't change this mechanic! This new legacy will be great to have without sacrificing the thrill that comes with being a captain!

Why would you use a legacy that allows you to have a greater chance of using a rallying cry when you need it? It would take away some of the challenge of having to react to the needs of the group in the moment. That relic is against what you seek as a captain so why would you use it?

Please keep reading through, cause I think you are falling into the same mistake as them.
This "challenge", which I think is really just over healing, and over WC buffing, would be replaced with a new consideration. I went over that so I'll skip to the next.

DPSing for crits is a part of our regular rotation, there is no less reason to try and DB crit with Charsima, if any perhaps more, not that one could do the rotation any more than they are. The reason has changed that is all.

Having my RC light up, then looking at the group full of health and clicking it anyway because I just did WC doesn't really sound like a challenge. There really isn't even a thought process to it other than, "hit RC it's got a hot at least".

The system we have now may feel exciting as you put off healing and focus solely on dpsing for a chance at that crit to save the group, but thats not what the system is suppose to be like. Putting the group at risk for a chance at the jackpot is more about the player than the group. You can run your crit rotation in between WOC's! You dps, you heal , you dps, you heal, if you get a crit great, but you can't make yourself get one. Crits just happen in your regular rotation. I have a 32% DB crit chance and BS or SL always up and I would never focus solely on a RC to heal the group.

If the group is dying heal them so the main healer can catch up. Do not put there lives up to random chance.

Originally Posted by Armitas

Why would you use a legacy that allows you to have a greater chance of using a rallying cry when you need it? It would take away some of the challenge of having to react to the needs of the group in the moment. That relic is against what you seek as a captain.

Please keep reading through, cause I think you are falling into the same mistake as them.
This "challenge", which I think is really just over healing, and over WC buffing, would be replaced with a new consideration. I went over that so I'll skip to the next.

DPSing for crits is a part of our regular rotation, there is no less reason to try and DB crit with Charsima, if any perhaps more, not that one could do the rotation any more than they are. The reason has changed that is all.

Having my RC light up, then looking at the group full of health and clicking it anyway because I just did WC doesn't really sound like a challenge. There really isn't even a thought process to it other than, "hit RC it's got a hot at least".

Cute what you're trying to do there, but an extra five seconds is not anything like the unlimited amount of time you propose. It'll allow me to get maybe one extra skill before hitting it or get through a stun/fear/etc. and still have time to get it in. There'll still be plenty of challenge there! Thanks for the response, but I've read every word of this thread and you'll just have to accept that I'm crazy to believe what I do. But I do!

Originally Posted by Erethal

Cute what you're trying to do there, but an extra five seconds is not anything like the unlimited amount of time you propose. It'll allow me to get maybe one extra skill before hitting it or get through a stun/fear/etc. and still have time to get it in. There'll still be plenty of challenge there! Thanks for the response, but I've read every word of this thread and you'll just have to accept that I'm crazy to believe what I do. But I do!

(in a nice tone)
It flys in direct contradiction to everything you say you want. By degrees you are ruining everything you say you want by setting that legacy.

Aaaah, nothing like the old summer threads being necro'd when the leaves start to fall off..

First of all, I must say that i like the concept behind Charisma, but i do however feel that it is unnecessary.
Do the Captains out there really have that big problems getting their defeat-skills off when needed?

Any sane captain nowadays runs with 3xperseverance (unless they're pure DPS[lol]) and stacks loads of crit. In any situation with 3+ mobs, PA will almost certainly give you a crit, and in boss fight, if you're unlucky with your DB, just use ToN, and if it's on cooldown just use the crafted pot-thingys. There has been very, very few times when I've been in need of a defeat-event, and didn't have any way of getting it

What can be annoying tho, is the timer running out just before you get to click, as an active captain we have a lot of things to maintain, and the new legacy in RoR gives us just a little bit of extra breathing-space, i've tried it in Beta, and while it does "dumb-down" the class (do not fear Captains, it's not by much) it let's us get that skill off even when we're in the middle of a rebuff off the group wearing both wrong weapon, emblem and armour and can't click our skills for the huge CD we'll get on them, because we get to have the defeat-responses open a few extra seconds.

On trash mobs there is no problem with getting a defeat response when you need it. On boss fights where they have much higher crit protection it can be a while before you get one even at 32% crit. I don't believe that one can just "get one" when they need it. If you move the crit to 33% even through crit def then chances are you will have to go through 3 rotations, along with wocs in between before you get one, that is not "when you need it". After TON, which is an oh crud skill, is on cool down there is no way of "getting a RC when you need it", pot or no. With Charisma you can use it before you get to the point where you have to have it or wipe.

Not everyone pvps, not everyone has that set. It only works in one trait line. Cappys skills should not be led by gear, the gear should be led by the skills.

Now with the perseverance set on trash mobs you run into a dumb and inglorious RC spam whether you need it or not. I don't think we could dumb down the class any more than that. Rather than have the RC's go to the group in a possibly useless form, it now goes to the group in a different form.

What this does is give us a few new defeat responses to choose from, it doesn't take anything away. It doesn't make us less complex or "dumb", it gives us a choice. Do I hold these buffs or these? So we went from use it or lose it to a choice between buffs.

Originally Posted by Armitas

(in a nice tone)
It flys in direct contradiction to everything you say you want. By degrees you are ruining everything you say you want by setting that legacy.

If an additional five seconds is such an extreme 180 degree contradiction and couldn't be any more drastically opposite to my beliefs, then the legacy must satisfy what you're looking for, right? If having that brief extra moment (which requires having to build it into my LI setup to even use) takes away the challenge of the captain, then what does that say about your unlimited duration, stacking defeat responses?

Right, you don't believe that in our current state that it is a challenge. It's hard for me to see how it can be an opinion though... how having defeat responses whenever you want is a challenge but not having them when you do need them is not? And how having the simple ability to identify when you need to heal/buff with your store of defeat responses is a challenge? From what I gathered, am I correct in saying that you think this is a challenge? Or are you just looking to have it taken away?

I use Words of Courage whenever possible, but not so much to cause too great of a delay running though my chains for the defeat response. A lot of times WoC is not enough to get the group back up for the healer to regain their step. Sometimes you just have to take the chance when you know what abilities you're guaranteed is not going to be enough. Taking the chance to succeed is better than knowing what you're doing guarantees failure.

In addition, if my opinion was as exaggerated as you suggest, I'd be fighting Sauron's minions with my fist (not that it wouldn't get the job done of course )

(It's time to regulate tone so read this in a "mater of factual" tone, or discussion tone)
What you say does not follow, the fact that it is a direct contradiction to you does not mean that it is what I want. What it does mean is that you are saying one thing and doing another and sticking to your story. This casts doubts on all you say. Not that you are some nefarious person, but that you don't completely understand or believe what you are saying. We have all been there before both on the receiving end and the giving end so you should know what I'm talking about.

You can't tell me you value the challenge then directly take the steps to subvert that "challenge" by degrees. We have no beef with each other but you will have to rectify your story if you wish to proceed with me.

There is no challenge for me in completing the rotation I always complete when healing is needed. I either do the rotation or I don't. If I get a crit I get a crit, I didn't make it happen RNG did. All you can do is perform the correct rotation including woc and wait for it to happen. If you wish to maintain 4 stacks there is some minor complexity there, and some choices to make, but I went over it.

Originally Posted by Armitas

(It's time to regulate tone so read this in a "mater of factual" tone, or discussion tone)
What you say does not follow, the fact that it is a direct contradiction to you does not mean that it is what I want. What it does mean is that you are saying one thing and doing another and sticking to your story. This casts doubts on all you say. Not that you are some nefarious person, but that you don't completely understand or believe what you are saying. We have all been there before both on the receiving end and the giving end so you should know what I'm talking about.

You can't tell me you value the challenge then directly take the steps to subvert that "challenge" by degrees. We have no beef with each other but you will have to rectify your story if you wish to proceed with me.

There is no challenge for me in completing the rotation I always complete when healing is needed. I either do the rotation or I don't. If I get a crit I get a crit, I didn't make it happen RNG did. All you can do is perform the correct rotation including woc and wait for it to happen. If you wish to maintain 4 stacks there is some minor complexity there, and some choices to make, but I went over it.

I really do value challenge! I don't want the core mechanics of the class to be altered to the extent you are proposing. However, I do appreciate the new legacy and having a few extra seconds for my chains. As you noted, I stated both of those sentiments in my original post, but you seem to be taking this to an unusual extreme. There's nothing contradictory with wanting and enjoying challenge and desiring new abilities that will provide a little help along the way. I don't think this legacy takes away the challenge. I think your proposal does. To want both is not impossible!

Maybe a bit more context will help! I'm one of those people who likes to make things as challenging as possible. Everyone who has played with me at all will know this and frequently call me crazy for it. I like to do everything at the highest tier, higher levels, larger group size content, etc. I like to pull tons of mobs at once and make things way more dangerous than they had to be instead of pulling one thing at a time and poking them with my sword in between yawns. I crave the intensity of those battles and taking chances and having a blast doing it! I also solo captain in the moors and have recently celebrated my 7000th death. "Death" in this game just brings laughter and makes me all the more motivated! Because of all this I've learned how to play my cappy so much better and discovered many flaws in my build and gameplay that I can work on and improve!

SO, the reason I like this legacy is not so much to make what is already possible easier, but to have a chance to be able to do what was once impossible; to have the opportunity to take on bigger challenges. And while having your proposed changes might offer that opportunity all the more, I think that it would be a bit overpowered. I hope that helps!

Getting a DB crit at just the right time is a challenge like pulling a slot machine arm and winning is a challenge. Just better odds for the crit. And I ain't the type to enjoy that kinda "challenge."

Having to choose between the passive bonus of banked Defeat Responses under Charisma or throwing them, that's a nice little bit of complexity to keep it interesting. A split-second weighing of pros/cons and a decision. Another thing to balance. That's what I like about Charisma.

Originally Posted by Erethal

I hope that helps!

That does, I can empathize with you from the rush I get from pvp. I don't understand the challenge part, but I definitely understand the rush part.

Originally Posted by Erethal

I really do value challenge! I don't want the core mechanics of the class to be altered to the extent you are proposing. However, I do appreciate the new legacy and having a few extra seconds for my chains. As you noted, I stated both of those sentiments in my original post, but you seem to be taking this to an unusual extreme. There's nothing contradictory with wanting and enjoying challenge and desiring new abilities that will provide a little help along the way. I don't think this legacy takes away the challenge. I think your proposal does. To want both is not impossible!

Maybe a bit more context will help! I'm one of those people who likes to make things as challenging as possible. Everyone who has played with me at all will know this and frequently call me crazy for it. I like to do everything at the highest tier, higher levels, larger group size content, etc. I like to pull tons of mobs at once and make things way more dangerous than they had to be instead of pulling one thing at a time and poking them with my sword in between yawns. I crave the intensity of those battles and taking chances and having a blast doing it! I also solo captain in the moors and have recently celebrated my 7000th death. "Death" in this game just brings laughter and makes me all the more motivated! Because of all this I've learned how to play my cappy so much better and discovered many flaws in my build and gameplay that I can work on and improve!

SO, the reason I like this legacy is not so much to make what is already possible easier, but to have a chance to be able to do what was once impossible; to have the opportunity to take on bigger challenges. And while having your proposed changes might offer that opportunity all the more, I think that it would be a bit overpowered. I hope that helps!

Awesome way to face things =)

./signed

brilliant idea