Thread: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things

Originally Posted by furtim

Defeat events are part of the Captain's core identity. You achieve a goal and seize the opportunity to exploit the opening you just created. That's psychologically powerful. You don't achieve a goal and then ignore the opportunity it creates because your stats get X% better if you do. That's both gamey and unfulfilling.

Good point
I'm adding this to the original post.

Charisma "you draw upon recent victories to inspire the fellows around you"

Originally Posted by furtim

Doing it once in a fight because you're saving up for a big push at just the right moment is fine (although... that's kind of what Time of Need does for us, isn't it?), but ignoring the openings you create multiple times in a row is bad tactics in real life and boring to do in a game, no matter what artificial advantages you create to incentivise it.

Better tactics would dictate saving that opening for maximum effect rather than wasting a limited resource for minor effect or nearly no effect at all.

Originally Posted by Rammie

A well thought of idea, but in my opinion completely unnecessary. Captains are fine as they are, already quite powerful when played well.

Besides, a Rallying Cry is hardly ever wasted, pretty much only when you use Time of Need before a pull and use Rallying Cry instead of War Cry. In every other case it's just not wasted. Everyone loves the power, the healer will thank you for topping everyone off before the big distributed AoE attack starts. There is nothing wrong at all with our current situation.

Part of me agrees with you. Part of me doesn't. I think most of me agrees with you though.

It's true Captains are pretty powerful at the moment with no major flaws - and this change isn't nessassary. That's true, I agree.

But there are plenty of times when I would love to be able to save a rally cry for later when I know I will need it more. For example let's say I just got in a crit and I know the boss is due to use an AoE attack soon - it would be very nice to be able to save it for later so I could counter the boss's AoE with it.

However, I do feel this change would have a significant impact on the Captain's gameplay. Part of the strategy behind this class is needing to get that kill in - and this change would alter that entire aspect of the class. So while it's an inventive idea, I think it's probably best just to leave well enough alone on this one.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

It's true Captains are pretty powerful at the moment with no major flaws

So pathetic DPS (when compared to main line DPSers) when fully DPS traited and around a third of the healing output of the primary healing classes (so that Dargnahk T2 HM is basically impossible with a non-tank) aren't flaws?

You need to stop smoking crack man.....

So basically you're giving Captains focus pips like a hunter.


Having a captain myself, I can see the desire to control responses, but this suggestion would require captains to give up something else. They would become, I think overpowered with this being implemented the way you're suggesting. Perhaps if all it did was let you store up "focus pips" to fling 2 or 3 responses whenever you want, that might be ok. All the buffs you are suggesting though are too much.

Your pips should work the same way a hunter's do. In combat or out of combat shouldn't matter. If you start moving, you lose pips, just like hunters do.

Originally Posted by Widoch

Perhaps if all it did was let you store up "focus pips" to fling 2 or 3 responses whenever you want, that might be ok. All the buffs you are suggesting though are too much.

I went over this a couple of times so I'll just link

Originally Posted by Armitas

+8% offense rating is around a 4% increase in dps. That 4% will take several minutes to achieve in a boss fight, and over as soon as you get it in a mob fight....but don't worry about numbers just concept.

The avg dps after a lot gearing for most captains is 1k-1200....44extra dps toward the end of the fight won't make us replace a champ anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Widoch

Your pips should work the same way a hunter's do. In combat or out of combat shouldn't matter. If you start moving, you lose pips, just like hunters do.

This is not hunter focus, I don't want to be a hunter, champ, RK. This is designed to leave current gameplay intact. The only immediately noticeable change being that RC doesn't go gray after after ~5seconds.

Originally Posted by Widoch

So basically you're giving Captains focus pips like a hunter.

no.

Your sig says you're a hunter, I have no idea if you play captain. But you either didn't read this thread or know nothing about the class.

When a mob dies or a captain crits on a very specific skill he gets several abilities un-gated, which will expend the defeat event when used. Focus/Fervour are completely different - you build and spend, you can also use items or skills to give you a focus boost. The captain has one skill that will give us a defeat event on-demand, and it is on a 5 minute cooldown and costs over 1000 morale to use.

So while you might build and spend 50 focus or fervour in a minute, a captain might get one-two defeat responses.
So take your focus comparisons somewhere else.

Not to mention captains are a melee class and hunters aren't... Why would you suggest that a melee class would need to stay still? Clearly you've never played a champion.

The more I think about it, the less I like this mechanic. It would be very efficient, to be sure, but it also feels...I can't find the right word (rigid? sterile? mechanical?)

I like the unpredictable nature of defeat/crit responses. Much like a hot shower feels best after walking in the cold rain, a wipe-saving RC feels best after praying for a crit or yelling at the Hunter to "for god's sake kill something!"

I like the up-and-down human element to the Captain class and the inherent strategy of defeat responses. Choosing between using a response or maintaining a small buff isn't the kind of excitement I signed up for.

Originally Posted by Frisco

I like the up-and-down human element to the Captain class and the inherent strategy of defeat responses. Choosing between using a response or maintaining a small buff isn't the kind of excitement I signed up for.

There is a strategy? I always hit war cry if were full, rallying cry if were not.

Though maximizing charisma is not required for gain there is quite a bit of strategy there to maximize if your willing to war game it in your head.

There is really not much strategy that can be made over something you have no control of to begin with.

ive skimmed most the last few posts...


in regards to "capns being designed with defeat responses in mind" and changing that would fundamentally change capns...

wasnt the minstrel changed in a similar manner? im not really up on them, so please correct me if im confused... dont minstrels have buffs that they can "use/eat" to make other buffs stronger? i know Burgs do this, but they eat a debuff, not a buff. for minstrels, dont they expire when OOC for 9s?

werent those both redesigns over their original functions?

i may be ignorant... and im NOT asking for a fundamental change to our class (to be clear, i LOVE how the capn was designed, even originally! i LOVE this class and would rather not change anything.)

im just saying, these changes DO happen...



ps- this is a fairly common mechanic... the closest class to a Capn in Rift has this. think you could get up to 3 stacks? it worked great and the stacks had a 9-12s timer on them too, iirc.

Forgive me for reversing your lines here...but it is enlightening...

Originally Posted by Armitas

There is really not much strategy that can be made over something you have no control of to begin with.

There is a strategy? I always hit war cry if were full, rallying cry if were not.

Choosing to ignore other options does not mean one has no control. It means one is exercising their control in a limited fashion. Ignoring better strategic options is not a failing of the design.

When those skills become available, all the other skills are STILL available and can be selected instead! They do not grey out, it's not an either/or choice. In fact, many times it's much better to hit one of them instead. Now I do understand some of you feel that you don't have control because the access is limited to events you control indirectly (defeats). But that is the intent, hence a "reactive" class with skills based upon conditions happening externally or randomly. Some other classes have it based on random things they have not even indirect control over (burglars, with "Aim" being the exception that proves the rule).

At least with a captain, you can choose when to have a defeat response, can wait until CDs are available if desired, can save them for later if preferred, or apply them earlier (presuming the fight is designed with that available). This proposal enabling "banking" them would negate any of that game play. There'd be no reason to drop one earlier or later if the enabling of a defeat skill could be stored.

As I pointed out previously, it is a good design, one that Turbine even appreciates, they designed an entire buffing/healing class around it--the minstrel. The only difference is it's reversed, they can heal without "charisma", but if they bring their charisma up to three, they can apply buffs. They choose exactly when they wish to use it and then have to build up their charisma again. It's a very boring class to play compared to the dynamic nature of the captain--it's mindless in comparison, and every fight feels the same because conditions of the fight have little bearing on what the minstrel does.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

When those skills become available, all the other skills are STILL available and can be selected instead! They do not grey out, it's not an either/or choice. In fact, many times it's much better to hit one of them instead. .....

At least with a captain, you can choose when to have a defeat response, can wait until CDs are available if desired, can save them for later if preferred, or apply them earlier (presuming the fight is designed with that available).

I'm not following you, whats the strategy? I also don't understand the line reversal.

The crit-chain or defeat-event farming is not a dynamic experience, and even if it was this takes nothing away from that except the absolute randomness of it. You still have to farm crits; There is still a chance of getting 0 crits during any given fight; There is still a chance of getting 5 crits in a row when you don't need them, and 0 when you do.

Perhaps people enjoy random DE's while they're doing foundry or RoF runs, but for raiding there are VERY few defeat events and the whole DE aspect is more or less useless for captains. You get rally cries when you don't need them; Refresh war-cry whenever it's off CD even if it's got 20s left, because it's our best buff.

People keep comparing our chain to other classes as if they're similar. Yes burglars need crits, but they can crit on any skill to open their chain. Hunters need focus, but can build focus in like 5 different ways. Ditto for champs w/ fervor.
Minstrels need anthems to open up ballads, but can generate anthems whenever they aren't too busy healing.
The captain crit-chain is much less accessible than anything mentioned above, and for what reasoning? The mini buffs are nearly as good as war-cry. They don't need to sacrifice a ballad to cast inspire fellows. Or wipe out all their ballads to cast fellowship's heart.

Also it finally gives captain's a class mechanic.
Burgs > crits, champs > fervour, hunters > focus, guardians > reactions, wardens > gambits, LM's > pet flanks. > rune keepers attunement. minstrels > anthems, ballads. Captains have... defeat events? Crit farming? What?

Awhile ago there was a thread about the captain's core class-mechanic, and while it ought to be defeat events, it's really not. The answer people gave was "Defeat events, but champs also use those... maybe in harms way, and buffing.. err.. not sure".

As far as i'm concerned turbine owes Armitas some money (not a lot, maybe a dinner somewhere nice) since he basically came up with what the captain mechanic should be, for them.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

As far as i'm concerned turbine owes Armitas some money (not a lot, maybe a dinner somewhere nice) since he basically came up with what the captain mechanic should be, for them.

Sapience...I'll have the Surf 'N' Turf with a side of Surf 'N' Turf, and then another Surf 'N' Turf for desert, and water to drink...I'm on a diet. And there better be candles on the table!

Just give me a couple more defeat response skills between 75 and 85 and I'll be happy. Seeing those skills light up is like slot machine brain candy. I'll take "defeat responses" as our class mechanic any day, inefficiency and all.

grossly misquoted...

Originally Posted by Frisco

Seeing those skills light up is like slot machine brain candy. I'll take "defeat responses" as our class mechanic any day, inefficiency and all.

Originally Posted by Frisco

I like the up-and-down human element to the Captain class and the inherent strategy of defeat responses.

Originally Posted by Frisco

I like the unpredictable nature of defeat

Originally Posted by Frisco

What are we willing to lose for this sort of change?

Oh I see... it all comes out now... you're addicted to gambling aren't you! Strategy my butt.. you're hooked and you can't stop! Put down the chips, think of the children. Do it for Snookie! ^(kidding)

Originally Posted by Armitas

Oh I see... it all comes out now... your addicted to gambling aren't you! Strategy by butt, your hooked and you can't stop! Put down the chips, think of the children. Do it for snookie!

The children can have their boring "skill skill skill buff skill skill skill heal skill skill skill buff". And they can even play a pretty little flute while doing so.

If I had to pick one part of your plan, I like the idea of small buffs for every defeat/crit response, whether they be duration or lasting through combat, and regardless of whether you use DE skills or not.

i think a lot of the capn mechanic is lore-based.

the whole feel of LOTR is back-to-the-wall, 11th hour type stuff.

i think (not to put words into your mouth) this is what frisco is getting at.

its the, bringing us from the brink, aspect of capn healing. while i can see how someone would question this from a game-development stand point, i think it is the proper mechanic for the feel of LOTR. there is little hope, at this stage in the war, and capns are part of that!

there IS an uncertainty of battle and almost ALL video games have eliminated this. i blame us, as gamers. talk about the dumbing-down of games... removing defeat responses from capns would be the ultimate (for me)! sorry, this isnt a very well thought out idea... more gut reflex. this just smells of "make it easier" diguised as "make more sense."

this idea (i am still onboard) pushes us more toward "game" from "book." personally, i never want game mechanics to suffer for lore.



just some thoughts

Originally Posted by DuneBug

The crit-chain or defeat-event farming is not a dynamic experience, and even if it was this takes nothing away from that except the absolute randomness of it. You still have to farm crits; There is still a chance of getting 0 crits during any given fight; There is still a chance of getting 5 crits in a row when you don't need them, and 0 when you do.

Perhaps people enjoy random DE's while they're doing foundry or RoF runs, but for raiding there are VERY few defeat events and the whole DE aspect is more or less useless for captains. You get rally cries when you don't need them; Refresh war-cry whenever it's off CD even if it's got 20s left, because it's our best buff.

People keep comparing our chain to other classes as if they're similar. Yes burglars need crits, but they can crit on any skill to open their chain. Hunters need focus, but can build focus in like 5 different ways. Ditto for champs w/ fervor.
Minstrels need anthems to open up ballads, but can generate anthems whenever they aren't too busy healing.
The captain crit-chain is much less accessible than anything mentioned above, and for what reasoning? The mini buffs are nearly as good as war-cry. They don't need to sacrifice a ballad to cast inspire fellows. Or wipe out all their ballads to cast fellowship's heart.

Also it finally gives captain's a class mechanic.
Burgs > crits, champs > fervour, hunters > focus, guardians > reactions, wardens > gambits, LM's > pet flanks. > rune keepers attunement. minstrels > anthems, ballads. Captains have... defeat events? Crit farming? What?

Awhile ago there was a thread about the captain's core class-mechanic, and while it ought to be defeat events, it's really not. The answer people gave was "Defeat events, but champs also use those... maybe in harms way, and buffing.. err.. not sure".

As far as i'm concerned turbine owes Armitas some money (not a lot, maybe a dinner somewhere nice) since he basically came up with what the captain mechanic should be, for them.

Maybe the defeat event upon crit needs to be applied to all skills, not just DE/PA, and then maybe some more passive crit rating or percent from trait line bonuses, not just the red line, but all of them.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

no.

Your sig says you're a hunter, I have no idea if you play captain. But you either didn't read this thread or know nothing about the class.

When a mob dies or a captain crits on a very specific skill he gets several abilities un-gated, which will expend the defeat event when used. Focus/Fervour are completely different - you build and spend, you can also use items or skills to give you a focus boost. The captain has one skill that will give us a defeat event on-demand, and it is on a 5 minute cooldown and costs over 1000 morale to use.

So while you might build and spend 50 focus or fervour in a minute, a captain might get one-two defeat responses.
So take your focus comparisons somewhere else.

I have a captain and a hunter both. I play them both a lot and yes, you're basically giving Captains focus.


Hunters build focus through action/consequence decisions. Every time the correct actions happens, focus is gained. Certain attacks and crits fill up a meter giving you focus you can choose to use whenever.

A Captain will gain their "Charisma" or whatever you want to call it through action/consequence. So the actions are different, but the result is the same. Enemy deaths and crits fill up a meter giving you "Charisma" you can choose to use whenever.

Not to mention captains are a melee class and hunters aren't... Why would you suggest that a melee class would need to stay still? Clearly you've never played a champion.

As to this, I would ask the same question. Have you ever played a hunter? I move around quite a bit. By causing Captain "focus" for lack of a better word, to dissipate with movement, it would reduce the inherent about over over powered buffs gained from this idea.

i've already explained the huge gigantic difference between focus/fervour and defeat events.

It's a free forum so you can divulge whatever ideas you like, but it makes absolutely no sense from any perspective. The similar comparison would be fervour, not focus. And if I could gen a defeat event with a skill on a 2s cooldown, it'd be a valid comparison.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

So pathetic DPS (when compared to main line DPSers) when fully DPS traited and around a third of the healing output of the primary healing classes (so that Dargnahk T2 HM is basically impossible with a non-tank) aren't flaws?

You need to stop smoking crack man.....

Almagnus, first you insult my gear...now you are accusing me of illegal drug use lol...

Originally Posted by Frisco

The more I think about it, the less I like this mechanic. It would be very efficient, to be sure, but it also feels...I can't find the right word (rigid? sterile? mechanical?)

I like the unpredictable nature of defeat/crit responses. Much like a hot shower feels best after walking in the cold rain, a wipe-saving RC feels best after praying for a crit or yelling at the Hunter to "for god's sake kill something!"

I like the up-and-down human element to the Captain class and the inherent strategy of defeat responses. Choosing between using a response or maintaining a small buff isn't the kind of excitement I signed up for.

I agree.

It's an inventive idea that sounds good at first, but the more you consider it the less appealing it becomes.

I just realized something, in addition to an on-demand response we can give ourselves every 5m, minstrels can also give us one every 5m with song of aid, plus another every 5 min that comes with battle readied every 5s for 15s, for more chances at a crit for a response, with call to greatness. Minstrels are our friends.

I rank ideas if I feel it necessary for Turbine to waste time and money and man power for the fix or if the problem is even a problem to begin with or just a 'I would prefer' issue. This seems to be the latter.

Though I do think it would be convenient and the amount of thought behind this idea is incredible, i applaud the OP, it sounds like a lot of work when simply prolonging the window of a defeat response by another few seconds would give us that 'save it' feature without any sort of "you are now expected to always run with a cappy" ness added to the game.

No stacking no tiering no *saving every trash pull 'pip' for the boss and spamming to oblivion* and that to me would become boring just save up everything never use any DR less in dire need of it or the pip meter is capped (Is there even a cap O-o). Rack up boosts and spam the boss. it would just seem like content would need to be changed for that or us get changed and Id rather it not. That and the game play would not get any more 'in depth' it would just change when you can become the mindless spammer.

If this idea were to be implemented some changes would need to be made to balance it. All DR's would need to be put on longer cool downs, the benefit decreased per pip you have so you don't spam it, or all DR's but on the SAME cool down so you still need to use strategy over what DR you use when and not use all of them

A heal plus damage buff then repeat each time nessisary for the boss seems like content would need to be build with that in mind.

I like the class how it is. it truly makes captains feel like captains. Captains use a victory to achieve great things they don't scrounge threw archives of battles to bring up randomly. its more " GOOD JOB MEN LETS KEEP GOING!! That kill was the first of many who will die on our blades and arrows!" not "Hey remember that first guy we killed way back. HELLS YEA!"

Edit for spelling >_>

Originally Posted by Reneko

I rank ideas if I feel it necessary for Turbine to waste time and money and man power for the fix or if the problem is even a problem to begin with or just a 'I would prefer' issue. This seems to be the latter.

Do you feel qualified to make that judgement having only a level 29 captain?

Originally Posted by Reneko

That and the game play would not get any more 'in depth' it would just change when you can become the mindless spammer.

It is a mindless spam now. This would make it not mindless. If you take the time, war game an instance in your head you will see the depth this could create.

I think you missed some key posts in this thread going into more detail on the system. Check back through it.

Originally Posted by Armitas

Do you feel qualified to make that judgement having only a level 29 captain?

Yeah, too many peeps think that by hitting the 30s in a class they know it all....

So much is wrong with that, especially when so much of what we look like at endgame isn't even seen until level 50+.

For the record, it's not just about making responses last longer so we can have one on-demand.

If you receive two defeat responses within a short window of time without using one up, it's effectively wasted. That's why we become RC spambots.

Please read at least the first page of the thread before you respond.

Charisma would expire ooc, just like fervour and focus. So no storing up charisma just before a boss-fight.

During a boss-fight you'd pop war-cry asap, then ideally store charisma... But DE's don't come that quick. You ought to use one every minute for war-cry. But will probably want to pop rally cry at opportune moments. If you hit four charisma you'd have a tough decision on whether you'd want to keep your improved t4 buffs, or use up a defeat response. (The charisma meter only goes to 4, so any defeat responses you get after 4 charisma would effectively be wasted unless you had a free spot).

Originally Posted by Reneko

I rank ideas if I feel it necessary for Turbine to waste time and money and man power for the fix or if the problem is even a problem to begin with or just a 'I would prefer' issue. This seems to be the latter.

Champs didn't need to be revamped, neither did minstrels, or wardens. Yet they all were, and long before the rune-keeper which actually did need some love. So I don't see the point of this statement.

Originally Posted by Armitas

Do you feel qualified to make that judgement having only a level 29 captain?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yeah, too many peeps think that by hitting the 30s in a class they know it all....

So much is wrong with that, especially when so much of what we look like at endgame isn't even seen until level 50+.

I'm not going to pretend to know all the mechanics of captain. I opened my post by saying I didn't think it was worth dev time. I don't see how bringing up my level somehow makes changes that. You don't have to be level 75 to know the stables are messed up, The housing system is broken, pet tracking (or rather becoming distracted and running in some random direction) ( and from what I read in the forums so do the archer heralds needs some love in general) among others are much higher on my list of importance.

People can be free to dissagree. Its just my opinion. *Shrug*

Originally Posted by Reneko

I opened my post by saying I didn't think it was worth dev time. I don't see how bringing up my level somehow makes changes that. You don't have to be level 75 to know the stables are messed up, The housing system is broken,

(in a kind tone)
Because you have no valid perspective from which to draw your conclusions.

If your going to make a comment like that preface it with "I'm only a level 29 captain" so that people can identify the limitations of your opinion rather than falsely assume that it is derived from experience.

being low level doen not invalidate a person in this thread.

for example, a lvl 30 capn is probably better versed in the current state of Heralds than i am, as they are forced to use them all the time. so, their opinion would be more valid than my end-game opinion. anyway...



this change would be really great FOR low level capns. it would make leveling and soloing much faster. being able to save a defeat response from a previous fight would make chain-killing much nicer on a capn. especially considering Routing Cry, imo.


im still on the fence on this idea... but wanted to adress the assumption that youth(noobness)=ignorance=inva lidation. i disagree, ultimatly. sure, a low-level cant speak to raids and such, but they do know capns from thier perspective. and "children" should never be ignored. never dismiss different points of view. my lesson to you all

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

being low level doen not invalidate a person in this thread.

for example, a lvl 30 capn is probably better versed in the current state of Heralds than i am, as they are forced to use them all the time. so, their opinion would be more valid than my end-game opinion. anyway...

Certianly. I don't want to give that impression in any way. A level 30captain knows more than I do about being level 30. He probably knows more about it then I have forgotten.

I only mean to suggest that their conclusions/perspectives are limited or obstructed by their lack of experience in level 75 content.

Ugh. I had a longer response that got eaten by an inadvertent auto-logout of the forums, so I'll try to summarize briefly what I'd written.

Thank you for referring me to your list of things that your idea would fix - my earlier question was inadequate because I was called away to a meeting and just hit 'Submit Reply' instead of waiting until I could better articulate what I was thinking. No worries about coming across as rude - you didn't.

In short, your list of things in the OP that would be fixed aren't things that I would consider broken. Would they be improved? Certainly. But are they broken? I don't think so.

DPS is better than it has been in a long time - not top-tier, but it shouldn't be considering that Captains can also heal and tank - no other class can do all three.

Healing is still strong, and while I understand the frustration of not having RC on-demand, it's also an instant cast, usable on the move AoE heal that can return more power than it costs, and has the potential to be a 6s cooldown. That's pretty strong. Also, we're talking about a class that isn't a main healer that is capable of main-healing 6-man instances. That doesn't seem like healing is broken to me.

Tanking seems fine. We use our captains as off-tanks in Orthanc T2 quite often, and the one who does it most often is even able to hold aggro on his target over our DPSers, who aren't exactly using Butter Knives and seem to have their facerolling perfected (I'm one of the facerollers, btw, but maybe I'm just terrible. :P)

IDOME is exactly where I'd expect it to be - level cap x1 to all stats.

Inspire is a bit weak healing-wise, although the Song Brother power restore is really strong.

The capstones seem fine: HoH could maybe use a tad bit more extra healing, but the LoM capstone makes for solid threat-generation, and the red capstone is so bloody strong that people (yourself included, I think?) are using it for healing builds, for goodness' sakes.

So that's why I asked what it would fix, because - to me, at least - there's not really anything broken with the Captain class. I certainly understand people wanting to be more powerful, and I understand the people who agree with the idea, as it's basically making the Captain class stronger - and who doesn't want their class to be stronger?

Essentially I see the main thrust of the idea as the ability to store up defeat responses - which I can understand wanting to do. Would you be happy if you could do so without getting the extra buffs that you mentioned?

Originally Posted by Lestache

In short, your list of things in the OP that would be fixed aren't things that I would consider broken. Would they be improved? Certainly. But are they broken? I don't think so.

This.

Originally Posted by Armitas

What did we fix? - Charisma would fix the following problems we currently have under discussion in the cappy forums

You'll have to go through our forums and catch up on those things already discussed. I'd love to answer you but that is way waaay beyond the scope of this thread. That would be a permanent derail for 10+ pages. Those threads are ongoing so they can continue there.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Essentially I see the main thrust of the idea as the ability to store up defeat responses - which I can understand wanting to do. Would you be happy if you could do so without getting the extra buffs that you mentioned?

No, definitely not, that would strip the beauty of this completely out. I want to strengthen the idea of our "charisma" (real word this time not skill) effecting the group in a dynamic and progressive way. Like giving a motivating speech that gets stronger and stronger as the speech goes on.

So you start the fight hopeless, but as the fight goes on your fellows become progressively more hopeful and inspired. That way you can see a dynamic impact rather than a repetitive and stagnant one. You can see your "charisma" turning the tide of despair in the heart of your companions as the battle goes on. (to a point)

I also like the built in, but not necessary strategy of using your victories to maximum effect.

Well...

1) Another «bar» bases class? No thanks.
2) Cappyes are fun because of that reactive part. Sotcking defeat responses makes no senst at all.
3) Cappyes are at a very good spot atm. Not getting buffed and your idea is very unbalanced.

4)BUT The idea of using some sort of chain in the defeat responses, making the captain growing in power the longer the fight is good and would make sense. But that way you put it, it's just a plain buff, whats the point? You need to rebalance it so it doesnt become a plain «god mode».

Originally Posted by Leonide

Well...

1) Another «bar» bases class? No thanks.
2) Cappyes are fun because of that reactive part. Sotcking defeat responses makes no senst at all.
3) Cappyes are at a very good spot atm. Not getting buffed and your idea is very unbalanced.

4)BUT The idea of using some sort of chain in the defeat responses, making the captain growing in power the longer the fight is good and would make sense. But that way you put it, it's just a plain buff, whats the point? You need to rebalance it so it doesnt become a plain «god mode».

Yeah I agree.

It's an interesting and inventive idea - but I think over-all it would have a negative impact on the class's gameplay.

Originally Posted by Leonide

Well...

1) Another «bar» bases class? No thanks.
2) Cappyes are fun because of that reactive part. Sotcking defeat responses makes no senst at all.
3) Cappyes are at a very good spot atm. Not getting buffed and your idea is very unbalanced.

4)BUT The idea of using some sort of chain in the defeat responses, making the captain growing in power the longer the fight is good and would make sense. But that way you put it, it's just a plain buff, whats the point? You need to rebalance it so it doesnt become a plain «god mode».

Originally Posted by Armitas

In this thread I will propose a new passive skill called charisma. Please Please Please read the entire thread, all 3+ pages so I don't have to repeat myself.

1323321321

necro'ing a 2 month old post just to say you don't like it hmm?

I still like the idea of this mechanic.

Also,

Originally Posted by Armitas

Charisma - "You draw upon recent victories to inspire the fellows around you" Charisma is intended to fix our dps, tanking, and healing lines without changing our game play. What charisma will do is ungate our defeat responses so that we regain control of them and use them when we need them rather than just when we have them. All our defeat responses will maintain their current cool downs. Don’t worry too much about the numbers in this thread I’m not good at balancing, I’m only trying to convey the concept. Charisma benefits are passive, automatic, and can be used without any knowledge of it so the learning curve is non existent. Time of need will effect charisma.


Ok here is how it works.
….Charisma is a passive skill with some UI notification, a bar perhaps, or a stack number laid over our defeat skills. Charisma will build 1 stack for every defeat response to a maximum of 4 stacks. Every defeat response that is used will remove one stack of charisma. Charisma will remain stacked until out of combat for 5 seconds.

good idea but shouldn't stay all the fight long... maybe a 10 second fading no matter if in or out of combat.
Along with a improved fading delay legacies to 20 seconds.

so downing let say 3 mobs at same time would grant 3 charisma that would take 30 to 60 seconds to fade away.

the only issue here is that LtC will build more easily Charisma since he get more crit from PA or DB, and that would bring futher more imbalance.
That should be taken into account.

Originally Posted by Armitas

How it effects us personally
For each stack of charisma the captain capstones will be modified to include the following. These are only applied to the captain!
Healing +2% outgoing healing per stack over cap
Tanking +2% threat per stack ( could also be -2% dmg, 2% evade, or 2% inc heals etc)
DPS +2% offense per stack

agree

Originally Posted by Armitas

How it effects the group
Besides the ability to use our defeat responses when the group needs it most, Charisma also provides the following buffs to the group.
+8% inspire per stack
+25 stats to IDOME per stack.

no, that's not a good idea, would cause to much fluctuation into the buffed stats and inspire is already getting buffed by the healing version, no reason to buff it further to allow non healing spec to heal further more.
every time you'll get a defeat event boom +25 to all stats, then RC or WC and down -25 to all stats again...
that's would be just to much variation for not much change.
Also it would end up into ppl just stacking charisma and not anymore using it cause using the charisma would provide less benefits than actually using a skill that consume it:

Routing Cry or keep +25 to all stats and my +2 offense ?
Rallying Cry or keep +25 to all stats


the capstone buff would be okay but IDoME and Inspire buff would be to much...

You will see only LtC cappy stacking charisma over and over and just keeping War Cry on and Rallying Cry when in dire need of healing/power, healing with Inspire(fellowship-brother) and buffing all the fellow with IDoME.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

good idea but shouldn't stay all the fight long... maybe a 10 second fading no matter if in or out of combat.
Along with a improved fading delay legacies to 20 seconds.

That would induce more fluxuation to inspire and idome, and return thoughtless RC dumping into the mix again. Also I don't think that is sustainable by crits.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

the capstone buff would be okay but IDoME and Inspire buff would be to much...

If you go over the real numbers I think you will see how little the increase truly is. Idome provides a 1.2% - 1.4% actual increase to mastery, and 225 health at the full 75 points. The inspire buff at cap would only be about 60health per tick of shield bro inspire, much less on any other.

but again

Originally Posted by Armitas

Don’t worry too much about the numbers in this thread I’m not good at balancing, I’m only trying to convey the concept.

If they are too high make them lower in your head. It's concept only, with numbers to help move it along.