Thread: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things

In this thread I will propose a new passive skill called charisma. Please Please Please read the entire thread, all 3+ pages so I don't have to repeat myself.

Charisma - "You draw upon recent victories to inspire the fellows around you" Charisma is intended to fix our dps, tanking, and healing lines without changing our game play. What charisma will do is ungate our defeat responses so that we regain control of them and use them when we need them rather than just when we have them. All our defeat responses will maintain their current cool downs. Don’t worry too much about the numbers in this thread I’m not good at balancing, I’m only trying to convey the concept. Charisma benefits are passive, automatic, and can be used without any knowledge of it so the learning curve is non existent. Time of need will effect charisma.


Ok here is how it works.
….Charisma is a passive skill with some UI notification, a bar perhaps, or a stack number laid over our defeat skills. Charisma will build 1 stack for every defeat response to a maximum of 4 stacks. Every defeat response that is used will remove one stack of charisma. Charisma will remain stacked until out of combat for 5 seconds.

Here is what it does.
For each stack of Charisma you can use a defeat response at will, while maintaining it’s currently placed cooldowns. So now you can use Rallying cry when you need it, not when you have it. Now you can maintain war cry constantly rather than placing it over old war cry buffs.

How it effects us personally
For each stack of charisma the captain capstones will be modified to include the following. These are only applied to the captain!
Healing +2% outgoing healing per stack over cap
Tanking +2% threat per stack ( could also be -2% dmg, 2% evade, or 2% inc heals etc)
DPS +2% offense per stack

How it effects the group
Besides the ability to use our defeat responses when the group needs it most, Charisma also provides the following buffs to the group.
+8% inspire per stack
+25 stats to IDOME per stack.

Charisma as a story
Foundry
You enter foundry and start the first pull. You get a crit right off and start your first stack of Charisma. You empty it with war cry. The first enemy dies putting your Charisma to +1 again. No one is getting hurt so you continue to dps down the group of enemies while gaining +2% dps with each stack. Then when the mob fight is over you finish with Rallying cry for power restore, and rebuff war cry before the Charisma empties completely.

Boss Fight
You begin the boss fight with a crit and apply war cry. You continue building crits and stacking Charisma until the boss does his big aoe attack. You dump out 1 charisma to run Rallying Cry and re heal the group from that aoe spike. You continue to dps the boss down while keeping war cry up for it’s max duration without over buffing it. You maintain max charisma while dumping it to heal through the aoe spikes (+power restore) and war cry rebuffs.

Is it complicated?
If you got this far and think this is complicated it's not. Everything here is passive, out of sight out of mind. You don't have to do anything different other than not blow your charisma all at once. The only change this would make to your game play is now you don't click a defeat response when ever its up you click it only once you need it. It turns a complete Rallying cry over-heal into a needed rallying cry, same with war cry.

What did we fix? - Charisma would fix the following problems we currently have under discussion in the cappy forums.
We fixed our inspire to be more noticeable
We fixed our IDOME to be more inline with expectations
We fixed our healing by providing an aoe heal when needed
We fixed our healing by providing up to +8% outgoing healing over cap
We fixed our Tanking by providing +2% threat per stack(or others)
We fixed our Dps by providing up to +8% dps
We fixed our capstones to be more worth the legendary space.

would be awesome.

no comments.

This is probably one of the best suggestions i've ever read in this forum, honestly! @Devs: READ THIS!!
And i think it's not that hard to implement, since it sort of mirrors with fervour/focus-mechanics (if i got the idea right ).

Not sure you explained how Time of Need is affected by this. Should it give an instant amount of x Charisma?

Originally Posted by Leanya

Not sure you explained how Time of Need is affected by this. Should it give an instant amount of x Charisma?

It would just give plus 1 charisma. It will mostly effect heal traiting... allowing you to prestack a rallying cry since your ability to get defeat responses are reduced in heal spec. Time of need would work like it does now only you won't have to worry about the response going away.

I am also toying with the idea of a 4stack dump bonus. So you would have the option to dump all stacks to a certain bonus.

I'm still working on that bonus but my first thoughts are...
*A morale bubble
*-2min on Oath breakers
*A large and lengthy hot

This is only a side note. I don't want to add too much at once and make it concrete, just a teaser to think about.

Hands down best suggestion I've ever read, not only is it an improvement for current captain gameplay but also ungates a lot of possibilities such as the buffs per stack you described. It may be fitting lorewise that a captain encourages the group right after an enemy is defeated but this kind of change would only improve the game.

I read half of it and didn't need to see the rest. Best idea from the community so far, hands down. +rep

Playing devil's advocate...

Right now the abilities are designed around only being available for use at irregular times. If they were redesigned to be used upon demand, their effects would have to be a fraction of what they are now (probably less than half).

There currently are classes with this mechanic, why play a captain if a hunter/champ/minstrel is the same thing?

Personally, if the captain class was no longer a reactive class, I would stop playing it. In fact, I started my captain when the minstrel class was perverted away from being a reactive class.

It used to be that minis were reactive healers, and RKs were proactive, now neither are reactive. Only the captain class has reactive heals. If you take that away, there will be no reactive healing classes in the game at all.

I'm not saying the idea isn't smart, well thought out, and sound, it is, hence hunters/champs/minstrels all using that design.

I also enjoy the strategy and coordination of choosing when to drop MOBs to maximize benefits. If that element is removed so effects can be used on demand, there's less dynamic game play.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Playing devil's advocate...

Right now the abilities are designed around only being available for use at irregular times. If they were redesigned to be used upon demand, their effects would have to be a fraction of what they are now (probably less than half).
...
Personally, if the captain class was no longer a reactive class, I would stop playing it. In fact, I started my captain when the minstrel class was perverted away from being a reactive class.

I personally feel that rallying cry is designed to be useful, or in other words not a 100% over heal or 50% over buff as in the case of war cry. I don't think their intent is for our defeat responses to be useless or partially useless half the time.

I believe the current heal value of rallying cry and cooldown are appropriate for healing in a use-on-demand setting without usurping class roles.

The captain mechanics would remain unchanged. We would still be a "reactive class", however you will now be able to "react" appropriately rather than because you can.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

I also enjoy the strategy and coordination of choosing when to drop MOBs to maximize benefits. If that element is removed so effects can be used on demand, there's less dynamic game play.

This would go away but it would be replaced with new and more involved strategy. You wouldn't have to strategize to use it, but the potential for strategy is there for those who wish to maximize it.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

It used to be that minis were reactive healers, and RKs were proactive, now neither are reactive. Only the captain class has reactive heals. If you take that away, there will be no reactive healing classes in the game at all. The only reason to keep charisma in mind is to keep dumping it when it hits 4 so you don't waste one.

I'm not saying the idea isn't smart, well thought out, and sound, it is, hence hunters/champs/minstrels all using that design.

I wanted to avoid this comparison. Think of this as nothing more than a consumable stack with blind passive skills. This "charisma" should not be as intrusive as focus, or RK tiering. The only thing you will see is how much is available to use. Charisma would largely be ignored, as it "happens" on it's own through regular rotation. You can't make it happen, it just happens.

Charisma is not at the forefront of the battle, it is way in the back of your mind and easy to forget about it. I don't want anyone to be confused about this... Charisma will not be intrusive like RK tiering... I would be completely against it myself if it was anything like that.
I don't want a horizontal bar across my screen either. This could be a buff block with a number inside the same size and place as your other buffs, or it could apply a stack number on RC/WC/RC like consumables do in your hotbars.

Absolutely awesome suggestion!

SO /signed!

I think I dig the concept! Often I find myself hitting RC just because its available and I might as well (which isn't clever game play)

i second that emotion!

ive wanted this since i started my capn.

This is a great idea.

It is an interesting idea, and I think I like it (not totally sure).

One issue with it is that it makes the perseverence set bonus mandatory? As in, if you don't have it, you are a vastly subpar captain, as saving up defeat events and ability to pop RC ever 6 seconds when the time comes could be huge.

A suggestion like this makes us even more insanely overpowered in groups than we already are. What are we willing to lose for this sort of change?

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

It is an interesting idea, and I think I like it (not totally sure).

One issue with it is that it makes the perseverence set bonus mandatory? As in, if you don't have it, you are a vastly subpar captain, as saving up defeat events and ability to pop RC ever 6 seconds when the time comes could be huge.

In general I don't think so...as I feel that it would be mitigated by the value of holding on to your charisma...at least not too much.

It would be a big factor for healing...but the main healer should, at least in my mind, recover the group in a little over 6 seconds but before 12. So it could be a big factor, but only by providing 1 extra RC during a crisis before the healer takes control.

So I think in conclusion that yeah it would make a difference (~1 extra pop)but it would also make it more...dignified.. than the inglorious RC spam it currently is. (not that I don't enjoy going Muahahah through every dungeon).

Originally Posted by Frisco

A suggestion like this makes us even more insanely overpowered in groups than we already are. What are we willing to lose for this sort of change?

I'm not adding any new group benefits, only curbing wasted defeat responses. There are minor personal buffs to help bring us up the dps totem, and 2 fixes to lower than expected skills such as IDOME and inspire that will effect the group more accurately.

I feel that there is no room left to lose something on a personal level for the cappy, only to gain.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

One issue with it is that it makes the perseverence set bonus mandatory? As in, if you don't have it, you are a vastly subpar captain, as saving up defeat events and ability to pop RC ever 6 seconds when the time comes could be huge.

i agree with this. ive thought 6s RC needs to go... with a change like this: oh yea.

Originally Posted by Armitas

I'm not adding any new group benefits, only curbing wasted defeat responses. There are minor personal buffs to help bring us up the dps totem, and 2 fixes to lower than expected skills such as IDOME and inspire that will effect the group more accurately.

I feel that there is no room left to lose something on a personal level for the cappy, only to gain.

The new group benefits would be Rally Cry, War Cry, and Routing Cry on demand. You could use these skills when you previously could not. It's a big change. You can save defeat responses from times when they weren't needed, and store them up for when they are.

I think the concept is attractive, but there would have to be a tradeoff. Maybe not at implementation, but somewhere down the road when it became apparent that we were way more powerful than the content is designed for. It already feels like they design 6-man and raid content based on the assumption that there's a Captain in every group. Make us more powerful without taking anything away, the content will be trivialized. Increase the difficulty of the content, and more people will start to complain that the content can't be run without a Captain.

If you feel like you're at rock bottom as a Captain and there's nowhere to go but up, then it sounds like you haven't hit max potential with our current skills.

Again, good idea. But I'm not sure what I'd be willing to give up to get it implemented.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Again, good idea. But I'm not sure what I'd be willing to give up to get it implemented.

You will give up your personal bonus, IDOME, and Inspire to receive an on-demand Rallying Cry. You won't be able to have both entirely. If you use one you lose a portion of the bonus from the other. The benefits of holding on to Charisma will mitigate the benefits of using it on-demand. The difference is you have to make a choice rather than blindly choosing the skill to some or no effect. RC and WC will be used less under Charisma than currently.

Currently we are lumbering and clumsy, throwing encouraging words when it's not needed, and not encouraging when it is. Imagine this behavior in a real life person and it becomes comical. Imagine a fan at a base ball game that yells "fantastic!" at random intervals during the game. You'd laugh and scoot a bit farther away from him. As Omen_kaizersaid this "is not clever gameplay."

This is my opinion, but I don't think making these skills work correctly and efficiently will cause a re balance. They are not that fantastic to begin with, and we are only recovering the portion that is lost due to over heals, and over buffing. We are not adding a new portion to it.

Originally Posted by Armitas

You will give up your personal bonus, IDOME, and Inspire to receive an on-demand Rallying Cry. You won't be able to have both entirely. If you use one you lose a portion of the bonus from the other. The benefits of holding on to Charisma will mitigate the benefits of using it on-demand. The difference is you have to make a choice rather than blindly choosing the skill to some or no effect. RC and WC will be used less under Charisma than currently.

Yes, but those bonuses are *added* due to your Charisma change. So yes, your IDoME will go down from +175 to every stat if you lose all charisma, but you're ignoring the fact that your IDoME was at +175 to every stat to the entire fellowship.

This is the sort of thing that will require taking something away that we currently have. Even without *any* buffs associated with Charisma, just the ability to use on-defeat skills whenever we want is a big enough plus to warrant a minus in other areas. Which ones?

Currently we are lumbering and clumsy, throwing encouraging words when it's not needed, and not encouraging when it is. Imagine this behavior in a real life person and it becomes comical. Imagine a fan at a base ball game that yells "fantastic!" at random intervals during the game. You'd laugh and scoot a bit farther away from him. As Omen_kaizersaid this "is not clever gameplay."

That's exactly what will happen with Charisma.

Captain: "YEEEHAWWW!!!!!"

Minstrel: "What was that all about?"

Captain: "Just celebrating that orc I killed 7 minutes ago!"

Minstrel: "..."

This is my opinion, but I don't think making these skills work correctly and efficiently will cause a re balance. They are not that fantastic to begin with, and we are only recovering the portion that is lost due to over heals, and over buffing. We are not adding a new portion to it.

These skills are already pretty fantastic. I find it hard to take an otherwise good concept seriously when you don't realize how amazing Captains already are, and don't acknowledge that major buffs like this will require nerfs from somewhere.

Again, good idea. Horribly overpowered, though, without major decreases to RC healing and WC duration at the *very* least, not even getting started on balancing the proposed massive passive Charisma buffs.

Originally Posted by Frisco

These skills are already pretty fantastic. I find it hard to take an otherwise good concept seriously when you don't realize how amazing Captains already are, and don't acknowledge that major buffs like this will require nerfs from somewhere.

Again, good idea. Horribly overpowered, though, without major decreases to RC healing and WC duration at the *very* least, not even getting started on balancing the proposed massive passive Charisma buffs.

I agree there may be power/balance issues.

That said, number and spacing of defeat events is currently VERY inconsistent, being both situation and trait/equipment dependent. Against multiple grouped targets with things dying and captain swinging at 4 targets with PA, there is a vast number of defeat events regardless. Against a single hardened boss target with tons of morale/good resistances/bpe/higher level than the captain/etc, defeat events are rarer. An captain doing 3 DB a minute with 15% crit won't be getting very many. A captain doing 6-8 DB/minute with 25% crit will get rather more, but still, it is not overwhelming...

But there is always TON I guess I still underuse that skill, a hangover from the day when the cooldown was so long. I personally still tend to reserve it too much for emergency rallying cries rather than just popping it to put up war cry or some such if I fail to crit early in the fight.

A compromise would be to at allow defeat events be used for a longer period, or to accumulate, say, 2. Or some such. Not sure it is needed, mind you, pretty happy myself these days. But it is an interesting idea.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Yes, but those bonuses are *added* due to your Charisma change. So yes, your IDoME will go down from +175 to every stat if you lose all charisma, but you're ignoring the fact that your IDoME was at +175 to every stat to the entire fellowship.

We are at the point where we need to start checking tone. Read this as someone who respects and values your opinion.

They are 'added" as long as you don't use a defeat response yes. They don't exist concurently, at least not entirely.

Originally Posted by Frisco

That's exactly what will happen with Charisma.

Captain: "YEEEHAWWW!!!!!"

Minstrel: "What was that all about?"

Captain: "Just celebrating that orc I killed 7 minutes ago!"

Minstrel: "..."

Charisma clears after OOC, encouragement is still relevant and used at an appropriate time.

Rallying cry is not fantastic when it is an over heal, War cry is not fantastic when it overlaps. To say that these RC and WC are game breaking when used correctly is sensational. At the very least this is no more "game breaking" at its core than 6sec RC which they saw fit to give us twice. The effects of the perseverance set and it's effect on the game is a debate for another thread however.

None of the charisma buffs are massive if you understand how % gains work, and how long it takes to build charisma. But as I stated at the beginning do not get tied up in numbers, it is designed to show concept.

I hate wasting on-defeat responses. Great idea, will make me think more.

Two things:

1) You say this will be a fix to many things. What are those many things? The only thing I see so far is that it will "cure" (for lack of a better word) the wasting of defeat responses.

2) Why do we need a system to prevent wasting defeat responses? If you think that hitting RC will result in wasted heals... don't hit it. Yes, I understand that you'd rather save it until it becomes needed, but maybe some fights are designed around the idea that you won't have an on-demand defeat response available at your whim. Allowing Captains to choose the exact moment for every Rallying Cry would make the instance designers have to account for that, I'd think - which could have the effect of us getting instances that assume there will be a Captain available to hit RC at key moments... making a Captain an absolute must-have class - one thing LOTRO has mostly tried to avoid since the launch of MoM.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Two things:

1) You say this will be a fix to many things. What are those many things? The only thing I see so far is that it will "cure" (for lack of a better word) the wasting of defeat responses.

2) Why do we need a system to prevent wasting defeat responses? If you think that hitting RC will result in wasted heals... don't hit it. Yes, I understand that you'd rather save it until it becomes needed, but maybe some fights are designed around the idea that you won't have an on-demand defeat response available at your whim. Allowing Captains to choose the exact moment for every Rallying Cry would make the instance designers have to account for that, I'd think - which could have the effect of us getting instances that assume there will be a Captain available to hit RC at key moments... making a Captain an absolute must-have class - one thing LOTRO has mostly tried to avoid since the launch of MoM.

I'm not sure how to go through this without sounding rude, so just know that i'm not.
1) from the original post.

What did we fix? - Charisma would fix the following problems we currently have under discussion in the cappy forums.
We fixed our inspire to be more noticeable
We fixed our IDOME to be more inline with expectations
We fixed our healing by providing an aoe heal when needed
We fixed our healing by providing up to +8% outgoing healing over cap
We fixed our Tanking by providing +2% threat per stack(or others)
We fixed our Dps by providing up to +8% dps
We fixed our capstones to be more worth the legendary space.

2) This has been brought up already see rest of thread. As far as the question

Why do we need a system to prevent wasting defeat responses?

Because they are being wasted.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Two things:

1) You say this will be a fix to many things. What are those many things? The only thing I see so far is that it will "cure" (for lack of a better word) the wasting of defeat responses.

2) Why do we need a system to prevent wasting defeat responses? If you think that hitting RC will result in wasted heals... don't hit it. Yes, I understand that you'd rather save it until it becomes needed, but maybe some fights are designed around the idea that you won't have an on-demand defeat response available at your whim. Allowing Captains to choose the exact moment for every Rallying Cry would make the instance designers have to account for that, I'd think - which could have the effect of us getting instances that assume there will be a Captain available to hit RC at key moments... making a Captain an absolute must-have class - one thing LOTRO has mostly tried to avoid since the launch of MoM.

You are exaggerating the effect that one RC has by far! A group heal of 900-2400 morale will not destroy instance designing for crying out loud, listen to yourself. RC is made for long run sustaining, not to be a dependable healing skill eventho it is our best heal. We are forced to use it when we can, not when we want. Storing an on demand RC would only make us a bit more reliable as healers.

Sounds like a great idea to me.

will this charisma meter always be filled up as long as something dies or i crit or will it remove one "box" after certain amount of time? if nothing around the captain happends,Monster defeats etc..Hope you understand what i meaning, sry im not english

Originally Posted by TidasChamp

will this charisma meter always be filled up as long as something dies or i crit or will it remove one "box" after certain amount of time? if nothing around the captain happends,Monster defeats etc..Hope you understand what i meaning, sry im not english

As long as your in combat it will not diminish. After combat ends you have 5 seconds to use it or lose it. I didn't put a "leak" in it because we can't control our crits. That and if your not in dps build your losing 5% crit right off due to traits.
It will increase when ever you crit on devastating blow or pressing attack and it will increase when ever something dies.

It will tier up faster on a mob fight but by the time it does the mob fight will be nearly over.

Tbh i dont really like to change my captain playstyle as it is since it was made..:s

I really like it as it is and i think charisma is gonna be an overblown change which we dont know what effect it will have.

A well thought of idea, but in my opinion completely unnecessary. Captains are fine as they are, already quite powerful when played well.

Besides, a Rallying Cry is hardly ever wasted, pretty much only when you use Time of Need before a pull and use Rallying Cry instead of War Cry. In every other case it's just not wasted. Everyone loves the power, the healer will thank you for topping everyone off before the big distributed AoE attack starts. There is nothing wrong at all with our current situation.

Originally Posted by Tangaar

Tbh i dont really like to change my captain playstyle as it is since it was made..:s

It wouldn't change your playstyle. You wouldn't notice a change beyond the chooseable defeat responses. Everything else is auto, passive, beyond notice. Unless you re-read all your traits on a regular basis you could go months without ever noticing the change. Re-read some of the other posts, I think you missed some key points. I went into more detail on how it would work within the thread.

/signed. One of the best suggestions I've read in a long time.

I like it!
Definitely addresses some of the issues I have with the class at the current time.
/signed

Interesting Idea, I recently started playing my captain again after a year of cappy main then playing a champ, RK and Guard to 75 and its definitely slower leveling. I think some changes (the trait line boosts in particular) are a tad OP. You would absolutely have to get rid of the 6 second rallying cry as well, which I am a big fan of.

I know there's disdain for the 6 second RC Bot captain play style, but it was precisely that short CD that allowed for me to main heal all the moria instances and SG at 65. I for one, was glad to see the 6 second RC back,(Would've settled for the 8.3 sec DN Bonus) and was one of the primary reasons I picked up my captain again.

I don't consider any defeat response wasted unless the fight is over. I understand the convenience of ungated defeat responses but we already have that ability it simply costs morale. I shudder to think what would have to be given up in order to have that convenience full time.

I like the idea, impressed by your vision. But I'd be hesitant until it was tested out.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I think some changes (the trait line boosts in particular) are a tad OP.

+8% offense rating is around a 4% increase in dps. That 4% will take several minutes to achieve in a boss fight, and over as soon as you get it in a mob fight....but don't worry about numbers just concept.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I know there's disdain for the 6 second RC Bot captain play style, but it was precisely that short CD that allowed for me to main heal all the moria instances and SG at 65. I for one, was glad to see the 6 second RC back,(Would've settled for the 8.3 sec DN Bonus) and was one of the primary reasons I picked up my captain again.

With Charisma you would not need to PvP to achieve the same capacity.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I don't consider any defeat response wasted unless the fight is over. I understand the convenience of ungated defeat responses but we already have that ability it simply costs morale. I shudder to think what would have to be given up in order to have that convenience full time.

A portion, large or small is nearly always wasted with rallying cry.
The key word here is "we already have that ability" in part and it can be used at no morale cost and yet it is not over powered. Rallying cry is already ungated at a 2.5 min cooldown with no morale loss. We can already have a double rallying cry now. The only difference being that we can now have the same thing at a time when we need it rather than when we don't.

With charisma we could pop 4x back to back RC's with 6seconds in between... but after 2 RC's, which we can do now, the main healer will have healed the group back up making the last 2 RCs are uneeded. Not to mention it may take several minutes and a bit of luck to achieve 4 charisma in the first place.

You won't start the boss fight with 4x charisma you have to crit on DB 5x to get it if you want to use war cry as well.

Here is a bit of math on the subject. 4 uncrit rallying crys of 1k each would take 24seconds to achieve. So 4k of morale over 24seconds is 166.6 hps per person. If you crit 1, which you would, you might be at 230hps. But it would take several minutes to achieve that capacity, not to mention how superfluous it would be after 24 minutes with a mini in your group. At any rate were still far from Rk/mini capacity. So very very far from that, I do not think a sacrifice would be necessary.

Since the design intent and play-testing was for defeat reactives to NOT be used at optimal moments, this would undermine that balance.

If something like this were implemented, I suppose a simple balance solution would be to vastly increase the power costs of those skills, so if used once, the next couple opportunities wouldn't be available? I mean, the more obvious solution of making their cooldowns three-five times longer would probably result in player objections, so the more subtle restriction might avoid that.

Either way it's changing the way the class plays and adding complexity for the sole purpose of duplicating other classes abilities. It seems they strive to produce distinct classes, rather than similar ones.

Defeat responses are never "wasted" unless the player makes a bad choice. If one comes up and there's no need for it, strategy would indicate you don't hit that skill, but a better one for the circumstance. Just like in chess, you don't take a pawn just because you can, as making a move that improves your goals is more valuable.

If you pass up using a defeat reactive skill when it's available but would achieve nothing, you are playing well and not wastefully. If you use a defeat reactive skill when it's available regardless of what it would achieve, you are wasting the opportunity to use a useful skill. Defeat events are never "wasted" inherently.

If the entire system is changed, so you could save reactives for the optimal time, there is no longer player choice in the moment. Instead it becomes mindless, "wait for condition, at condition, apply", à la in combat rezzes. Instead of there being a risk with potential reward at a player choice, choice becomes removed, and reward is guaranteed--read about the psychological concept of Flow, that produces inherently unsatisfying results for players.

Does that explain it any better? I believe those who imagine they'd like this premise better, would find upon playing it that they are inherently unhappy, although they couldn't pinpoint what leads to their dissatisfaction. Good game design isn't about streamlining an optimal condition for the players, it's about providing challenges that equate to the rewards of surmounting those challenges.

Reactives are a brilliant design that causes the player to have to make a decision in the moment. If that is taken away, such that they become simply accumulated events to be played when the condition is obvious, you no longer need a player to be involved making an intelligent, timely decision.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

While the idea is good, and I still /sign it, you could accomplish a few of those things by simply giving captains more crit rating. More crit rating = more dps, more threat, more responses when you need them. Doesn't solve all the OP's listed problems but it helps on the main ones, imo.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Defeat responses are never "wasted" unless the player makes a bad choice. If one comes up and there's no need for it, strategy would indicate you don't hit that skill, but a better one for the circumstance. Just like in chess, you don't take a pawn just because you can, as making a move that improves your goals is more valuable.

Many times I've been in the situation where Routing Cry and War Cry and are on CD, everyone's topped off, and I get a defeat response. Window's closing and the defeat response is going to be wasted unless its used. I can hit RC and have it give some green and blue love to full bars (and get it back in 6 seconds); minimal use. Or I can let the opportunity expire, ignoring it to hit something like, idk, cutting attack. Its frustrating to have a window of time to do something potent, but have that something be unavailable (WC on CD) or uneeded (RC when all bars are practically full).

I skimmed over the wikipedia article for flow. Pretty interesting. I feel like this change Armitas is proposing would strenghten the "sense of personal control over the situation or activity" component of flow for me personally. I'd have to make the tactical decision to save up my rallying cries (and I think Armitas threw out the idea for charisma to boost IDOME when I'm sitting on a stack of it) rather than "use it or lose it."

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Instead of there being a risk with potential reward at a player choice, choice becomes removed, and reward is guaranteed--read about the psychological concept of Flow, that produces inherently unsatisfying results for players.

Does that explain it any better? I believe those who imagine they'd like this premise better, would find upon playing it that they are inherently unhappy, although they couldn't pinpoint what leads to their dissatisfaction.

Were just talking about using it when you need it right? I mean that's a little much don't you think? Are you serious right now or trolling?... I honestly can't tell.

Using it when you need it - happy
Being able to use it when you don't need it - whatever
not being able to use it when you do need it - not happy, not rapture, not joy

Originally Posted by RJFerret

Either way it's changing the way the class plays and adding complexity for the sole purpose of duplicating other classes abilities. It seems they strive to produce distinct classes, rather than similar ones.

This is not like other class abilities. Again were talking about using RC when you need it.... When Rohan comes out expect the way our class plays to change, just as ROI gave us the change of Fellowship brother skills. Though I would use the word expand not change. Like I said before you could easily not notice Charisma existed.

So, it's Focus/Fervour for Captains, then?

This is definitely an interesting proposal. I like banking defeat events, and I even sort of like the idea of a new self-buff.

However, I don't think I like the idea of stacking it up multiple times. I never liked the idea of making RC entirely ungated, and I don't like the idea of making it effectively ungated any more. I also don't really like giving an incentive to skip defeat events.

Defeat events are part of the Captain's core identity. You achieve a goal and seize the opportunity to exploit the opening you just created. That's psychologically powerful. You don't achieve a goal and then ignore the opportunity it creates because your stats get X% better if you do. That's both gamey and unfulfilling.

Doing it once in a fight because you're saving up for a big push at just the right moment is fine (although... that's kind of what Time of Need does for us, isn't it?), but ignoring the openings you create multiple times in a row is bad tactics in real life and boring to do in a game, no matter what artificial advantages you create to incentivise it.