Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things
In this thread I will propose a new passive skill called charisma. Please Please Please read the entire thread, all 3+ pages so I don't have to repeat myself.
Charisma - "You draw upon recent victories to inspire the fellows around you" Charisma is intended to fix our dps, tanking, and healing lines without changing our game play. What charisma will do is ungate our defeat responses so that we regain control of them and use them when we need them rather than just when we have them. All our defeat responses will maintain their current cool downs. Don’t worry too much about the numbers in this thread I’m not good at balancing, I’m only trying to convey the concept. Charisma benefits are passive, automatic, and can be used without any knowledge of it so the learning curve is non existent. Time of need will effect charisma.
Ok here is how it works.
….Charisma is a passive skill with some UI notification, a bar perhaps, or a stack number laid over our defeat skills. Charisma will build 1 stack for every defeat response to a maximum of 4 stacks. Every defeat response that is used will remove one stack of charisma. Charisma will remain stacked until out of combat for 5 seconds.
Here is what it does.
For each stack of Charisma you can use a defeat response at will, while maintaining it’s currently placed cooldowns. So now you can use Rallying cry when you need it, not when you have it. Now you can maintain war cry constantly rather than placing it over old war cry buffs.
How it effects us personally
For each stack of charisma the captain capstones will be modified to include the following. These are only applied to the captain!
Healing +2% outgoing healing per stack over cap
Tanking +2% threat per stack ( could also be -2% dmg, 2% evade, or 2% inc heals etc)
DPS +2% offense per stack
How it effects the group
Besides the ability to use our defeat responses when the group needs it most, Charisma also provides the following buffs to the group.
+8% inspire per stack
+25 stats to IDOME per stack.
Charisma as a story
Foundry
You enter foundry and start the first pull. You get a crit right off and start your first stack of Charisma. You empty it with war cry. The first enemy dies putting your Charisma to +1 again. No one is getting hurt so you continue to dps down the group of enemies while gaining +2% dps with each stack. Then when the mob fight is over you finish with Rallying cry for power restore, and rebuff war cry before the Charisma empties completely.
Boss Fight
You begin the boss fight with a crit and apply war cry. You continue building crits and stacking Charisma until the boss does his big aoe attack. You dump out 1 charisma to run Rallying Cry and re heal the group from that aoe spike. You continue to dps the boss down while keeping war cry up for it’s max duration without over buffing it. You maintain max charisma while dumping it to heal through the aoe spikes (+power restore) and war cry rebuffs.
Is it complicated?
If you got this far and think this is complicated it's not. Everything here is passive, out of sight out of mind. You don't have to do anything different other than not blow your charisma all at once. The only change this would make to your game play is now you don't click a defeat response when ever its up you click it only once you need it. It turns a complete Rallying cry over-heal into a needed rallying cry, same with war cry.
What did we fix? - Charisma would fix the following problems we currently have under discussion in the cappy forums.
We fixed our inspire to be more noticeable
We fixed our IDOME to be more inline with expectations
We fixed our healing by providing an aoe heal when needed
We fixed our healing by providing up to +8% outgoing healing over cap
We fixed our Tanking by providing +2% threat per stack(or others)
We fixed our Dps by providing up to +8% dps
We fixed our capstones to be more worth the legendary space.
AW: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things
This is probably one of the best suggestions i've ever read in this forum, honestly! @Devs: READ THIS!!
And i think it's not that hard to implement, since it sort of mirrors with fervour/focus-mechanics (if i got the idea right ).
Not sure you explained how Time of Need is affected by this. Should it give an instant amount of x Charisma?
Re: AW: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things
Originally Posted by Leanya
Not sure you explained how Time of Need is affected by this. Should it give an instant amount of x Charisma?
It would just give plus 1 charisma. It will mostly effect heal traiting... allowing you to prestack a rallying cry since your ability to get defeat responses are reduced in heal spec. Time of need would work like it does now only you won't have to worry about the response going away.
I am also toying with the idea of a 4stack dump bonus. So you would have the option to dump all stacks to a certain bonus.
I'm still working on that bonus but my first thoughts are...
*A morale bubble
*-2min on Oath breakers
*A large and lengthy hot
This is only a side note. I don't want to add too much at once and make it concrete, just a teaser to think about.
Re: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things
Hands down best suggestion I've ever read, not only is it an improvement for current captain gameplay but also ungates a lot of possibilities such as the buffs per stack you described. It may be fitting lorewise that a captain encourages the group right after an enemy is defeated but this kind of change would only improve the game.
Re: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things
Playing devil's advocate...
Right now the abilities are designed around only being available for use at irregular times. If they were redesigned to be used upon demand, their effects would have to be a fraction of what they are now (probably less than half).
There currently are classes with this mechanic, why play a captain if a hunter/champ/minstrel is the same thing?
Personally, if the captain class was no longer a reactive class, I would stop playing it. In fact, I started my captain when the minstrel class was perverted away from being a reactive class.
It used to be that minis were reactive healers, and RKs were proactive, now neither are reactive. Only the captain class has reactive heals. If you take that away, there will be no reactive healing classes in the game at all.
I'm not saying the idea isn't smart, well thought out, and sound, it is, hence hunters/champs/minstrels all using that design.
I also enjoy the strategy and coordination of choosing when to drop MOBs to maximize benefits. If that element is removed so effects can be used on demand, there's less dynamic game play.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Re: Charisma and ungated defeat responses. A fix to many things
Originally Posted by RJFerret
Playing devil's advocate...
Right now the abilities are designed around only being available for use at irregular times. If they were redesigned to be used upon demand, their effects would have to be a fraction of what they are now (probably less than half).
...
Personally, if the captain class was no longer a reactive class, I would stop playing it. In fact, I started my captain when the minstrel class was perverted away from being a reactive class.
I personally feel that rallying cry is designed to be useful, or in other words not a 100% over heal or 50% over buff as in the case of war cry. I don't think their intent is for our defeat responses to be useless or partially useless half the time.
I believe the current heal value of rallying cry and cooldown are appropriate for healing in a use-on-demand setting without usurping class roles.
The captain mechanics would remain unchanged. We would still be a "reactive class", however you will now be able to "react" appropriately rather than because you can.
Originally Posted by RJFerret
I also enjoy the strategy and coordination of choosing when to drop MOBs to maximize benefits. If that element is removed so effects can be used on demand, there's less dynamic game play.
This would go away but it would be replaced with new and more involved strategy. You wouldn't have to strategize to use it, but the potential for strategy is there for those who wish to maximize it.
Originally Posted by RJFerret
It used to be that minis were reactive healers, and RKs were proactive, now neither are reactive. Only the captain class has reactive heals. If you take that away, there will be no reactive healing classes in the game at all. The only reason to keep charisma in mind is to keep dumping it when it hits 4 so you don't waste one.
I'm not saying the idea isn't smart, well thought out, and sound, it is, hence hunters/champs/minstrels all using that design.
I wanted to avoid this comparison. Think of this as nothing more than a consumable stack with blind passive skills. This "charisma" should not be as intrusive as focus, or RK tiering. The only thing you will see is how much is available to use. Charisma would largely be ignored, as it "happens" on it's own through regular rotation. You can't make it happen, it just happens.
Charisma is not at the forefront of the battle, it is way in the back of your mind and easy to forget about it. I don't want anyone to be confused about this... Charisma will not be intrusive like RK tiering... I would be completely against it myself if it was anything like that.
I don't want a horizontal bar across my screen either. This could be a buff block with a number inside the same size and place as your other buffs, or it could apply a stack number on RC/WC/RC like consumables do in your hotbars.
Charisma - "You draw upon recent victories to inspire the fellows around you" Charisma is intended to fix our dps, tanking, and healing lines without changing our game play. What charisma will do is ungate our defeat responses so that we regain control of them and use them when we need them rather than just when we have them. All our defeat responses will maintain their current cool downs. Don’t worry too much about the numbers in this thread I’m not good at balancing, I’m only trying to convey the concept. Charisma benefits are passive, automatic, and can be used without any knowledge of it so the learning curve is non existent. Time of need will effect charisma.
Ok here is how it works.
….Charisma is a passive skill with some UI notification, a bar perhaps, or a stack number laid over our defeat skills. Charisma will build 1 stack for every defeat response to a maximum of 4 stacks. Every defeat response that is used will remove one stack of charisma. Charisma will remain stacked until out of combat for 5 seconds.
good idea but shouldn't stay all the fight long... maybe a 10 second fading no matter if in or out of combat.
Along with a improved fading delay legacies to 20 seconds.
so downing let say 3 mobs at same time would grant 3 charisma that would take 30 to 60 seconds to fade away.
the only issue here is that LtC will build more easily Charisma since he get more crit from PA or DB, and that would bring futher more imbalance.
That should be taken into account.
Originally Posted by Armitas
How it effects us personally
For each stack of charisma the captain capstones will be modified to include the following. These are only applied to the captain!
Healing +2% outgoing healing per stack over cap
Tanking +2% threat per stack ( could also be -2% dmg, 2% evade, or 2% inc heals etc)
DPS +2% offense per stack
agree
Originally Posted by Armitas
How it effects the group
Besides the ability to use our defeat responses when the group needs it most, Charisma also provides the following buffs to the group.
+8% inspire per stack
+25 stats to IDOME per stack.
no, that's not a good idea, would cause to much fluctuation into the buffed stats and inspire is already getting buffed by the healing version, no reason to buff it further to allow non healing spec to heal further more.
every time you'll get a defeat event boom +25 to all stats, then RC or WC and down -25 to all stats again...
that's would be just to much variation for not much change.
Also it would end up into ppl just stacking charisma and not anymore using it cause using the charisma would provide less benefits than actually using a skill that consume it:
Routing Cry or keep +25 to all stats and my +2 offense ?
Rallying Cry or keep +25 to all stats
the capstone buff would be okay but IDoME and Inspire buff would be to much...
You will see only LtC cappy stacking charisma over and over and just keeping War Cry on and Rallying Cry when in dire need of healing/power, healing with Inspire(fellowship-brother) and buffing all the fellow with IDoME.
good idea but shouldn't stay all the fight long... maybe a 10 second fading no matter if in or out of combat.
Along with a improved fading delay legacies to 20 seconds.
That would induce more fluxuation to inspire and idome, and return thoughtless RC dumping into the mix again. Also I don't think that is sustainable by crits.
Originally Posted by jeanperson
the capstone buff would be okay but IDoME and Inspire buff would be to much...
If you go over the real numbers I think you will see how little the increase truly is. Idome provides a 1.2% - 1.4% actual increase to mastery, and 225 health at the full 75 points. The inspire buff at cap would only be about 60health per tick of shield bro inspire, much less on any other.
but again
Originally Posted by Armitas
Don’t worry too much about the numbers in this thread I’m not good at balancing, I’m only trying to convey the concept.
If they are too high make them lower in your head. It's concept only, with numbers to help move it along.
That would induce more fluxuation to inspire and idome, and return thoughtless RC dumping into the mix again. Also I don't think that is sustainable by crits.
If you go over the real numbers I think you will see how little the increase truly is. Idome provides a 1.2% - 1.4% actual increase to mastery, and 225 health at the full 75 points. The inspire buff at cap would only be about 60health per tick of shield bro inspire, much less on any other.
but again
If they are too high make them lower in your head. It's concept only, with numbers to help move it along.
I already said that I like that Idea and understand that value are meant to be balanced in beta and don't argue about value... just I think that a passive buff to IDoME and Inspire is too much Imo, it's would end up into either case:
1) value gain will be insignifiant and poeple will ignore it and just use charisma when needed, but you will generate so much gain and drop stats in unpredictable pattern that it will just cause an unnecessary flow of data to some player (not me but many that I know) that got already got lag issues.
2) value gain will be so significant that keeping charisma all the fight will provide more benefit to the whole fellowship then actually using the charisma.
Either case the IDoME buff from charisma is, Imho, unnecessary or a bad idea.
By unpredictable pattern I mean that servers in mmo use anticipation so a fading delay is a predictable pattern that don't require information event update from the server, the client can manage it, but a flow of stat change every time you use Charisma is unpredictable and require actualization of all stats everytime.
Beside for Inspire as I said healing spec already get the increase of healing per charisma so there is no need to give that to not healing spec.
But I like the idea, even tho, that I have suggested in my own wishlist to make a trait that would make Rallying Cry consume and require Hardenned Stance instead of defeat response, so HoH cappy would still need to get into melee and would intead of BoE use RC, this will fix the RC gaped and make it useful when needed, and make charisma much less needed, Still I like your idea and think that it might fit along my own wishlist.
Either case the IDoME buff from charisma is, Imho, unnecessary or a bad idea.
By unpredictable pattern I mean that servers in mmo use anticipation so a fading delay is a predictable pattern that don't require information event update from the server, the client can manage it, but a flow of stat change every time you use Charisma is unpredictable and require actualization of all stats everytime.
I am not able to verify the limitations of the servers and how this would effect it, however we use to fluctuate IDOME every 5min, and each class has limlight jewelry that fluctuates stats on a regular basis.
As far as the values imagine them balanced, they do not need to be in 2 extreme categories of OP or UP. You can't go from over powered to underpowered without stopping by balanced on the way.
As far as the values imagine them balanced, they do not need to be in 2 extreme categories of OP or UP. You can't go from over powered to underpowered without stopping by balanced on the way.
I see your point.
And keep in mind that I made my feedback ignoring the 4 stack cap.
but then what is the max of Charisma you can have? 5 like fervour or 9 like focus?
I still think that or the stat buff from charisma gonna be or not enought relevant or gonna be too much relevent, and cappy would rather not consume Charisma anymore and just keep the buff on, well I would prolly do that.
Still I don't like that cappy got now an Aura, IDoME used to be a buff like motivating speech; the aura of cappy were supposed to be the Banner and in my on Wishlist...
... I made that IDoME buff the Banner and otivation speech instead
I also want a Trait that make RC require battle-hardenned state instead of defeat event, and made LtC capstone to get a -30 seconds CD Redux to Routing Cry...
I still try to fiogure out how to intergrate your Charisma into it...if you can help me there, you're welcome.
so downing let say 3 mobs at same time would grant 3 charisma that would take 30 to 60 seconds to fade away.
Don't like the fading idea. Fervor, Focus, attunement, don't disappear in-combat. Besides it'd just lead to me looking at timers going "im about to lose a pip, better use rally cry".
Originally Posted by jeanperson
the only issue here is that LtC will build more easily Charisma since he get more crit from PA or DB, and that would bring futher more imbalance.
Yeah... But that is how it is currently. Meaning... You get many more crit responses from running LtC than any other line.
Don't like the fading idea. Fervor, Focus, attunement, don't disappear in-combat. Besides it'd just lead to me looking at timers going "im about to lose a pip, better use rally cry".
Yeah... But that is how it is currently. Meaning... You get many more crit responses from running LtC than any other line.
I know still keeping all the defeat event until OOC would be too much imo, and will just make LtC cappy further better healer, keep in mind that only Rally cry can get CD redux to 15 sec., considering the defeat event LtC got more he will be further more able, in any situations, to just keep Rally Cry on CD.
I stilll think that it should fade in-combat , the delay value remain to be fixed after further testing tho.
On the other Hand I just noticed that I failed ot see that you fixed a 4 stack cap, well I would rather remove the cap but set a fading that would almost end up into an effective cap.
Still my idea was to just make defeat event delay legacy to the captain instead it would end up the same by allowing to fill the gap.
Last edited by jeanperson; Jul 08 2012 at 02:07 PM.
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
Poster of Note Online status:
Member Online status:
).
Originally Posted by Leanya
Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
