Edit: After typing this I noted it is rather long, if you do not wish to read a wall of text then do not read this post, in the end my point is that I do not understand why people find the need to come onto these forums when a new game comes out to tell us how it will kill game x, if you are unhappy with your experience in game x and are looking forward to game y then move on to game y(once it comes out). Only time will tell how a game will be affected by this migration, but in the end, play the game that makes you happy and try not to rain on the parade of those of us who enjoy game x
While Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I genuinely hope you have fun playing GW2(at least more than you seem to be having playing this game) I want to point one issue out with your argument. I think you are overestimating how many people are going to leave this game and underestimating why some stay.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
A lovely list of things that mean GW2 will probably beat the already wounded LOTRO into an unconscious state.
1. No subscription. This is the biggest thing about GW2 that will ruin LOTRO. Think of all the F2P people that only came to LOTRO because it was free but found that most of it was off limits to them. They now see a game where you only pay once and you get everything. All those little F2Pers will try out GW2 and will probably like not having constraints. That only leaves VIPs and LTAs as the last source of money for Turbine, so they'll squeeze them dry by charging for every little thing until everyone eventually gets sick of it and leaves. Sure, people will pop back every now and then as LTAs, Prems or F2Ps but barely anyone will both spending money on it.
Not all f2p players came here just because it was free. I did not join the game when it first came out because I was just a Teen and could not afford a subscription game(also the fact that my parents did not like the idea of MMO's, but that is a side point). When I went to college I found out this game was f2p so I joined, I had other options for f2p games(Runescape, DDO, etc) but this one had the one thing that convinced me to play an MMO, LOTR. Honestly, if this game were still subscription I would probably play it anyways(you know once I was out of college and had a more consistent income) and if there were no LOTRO I can confidently say I would have never played an MMO(not really into this sort of thing, though grouping is fun a times). Yes you are probably right that many that came here only for the F2P will leave, but some may not.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
2. PvP. Now pretty much every game that's released will have better PvP than LOTRO since, ignoring that Turbine included it as a main feature of the game, it's not exactly focused on (only until recently when they realised they can squeeze money out of it). The PvPers will try out GW2 and will probably never go back to LOTRO, what with the constant need to grind commendations to actually be able to PvP anymore.
This one obviously will hurt LOTRO a bit(especially with the VIPs that leave) but I am happy that those who find LOTRO PVP so unbearable will be able to find somewhere they can hopefully be happy and have the experience they are looking for rather than it be the place you go to grind in LOTRO when you are bored of PVE grind.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
3. Store. LOTRO's store, as everyone knows, is nothing more than a way to drain the wallets of the loyal. More and more stuff becomes store-only, with things even going from available in-game to only through the Store. GW2's shop, going from what I've heard and from what GW1 had, isn't the cash grab that LOTRO's is.
Uhm, how is it a means to drain the loyal, absolutely nothing in it is necessary to play(only makes things easier). Some people have managed to make it all the way to endgame just via the epic and killing monsters(congrats to them, they have more patience than I) so it is technically possible to never buy a thing in the store if you wish and still play. Also You can gain TP in game(through a bit of an excessive grind) so that also allows you to unlock content for free at times. While I personally do not agree with everything in the store(such as the new low lvl armour) I do not see it as that big of an evil, I have managed to unlock most of the content I need for the game via a mix of TP grinding and using up some of my spare money from time to time(also buying ROI legendary which allowed me to open up all the content I needed to get from base to the current endgame in one purchase).
Originally Posted by Dorothir
4. Graphics. Damn, LOTRO, I don't understand. I know you're 5 years old now but come on. I was trying out a bit of Aion last night and my girlfriend commented on how smooth it looks compared to LOTRO. I was running it on highest settings and didn't get any lag. Yet I'll play LOTRO on lowest graphics and still have it look jolty, as if I'm playing it on an Amstrad.
What is wrong with LOTRO's graphics, if anything they are too high even at low lvls(my pc is fairly weak so that is all I play on). Honestly I have seen them on the highest settings and they are amazing, at least to me(my brothers PC is way more powerful than mine). On weaker comps such as mine it causes an issue with the lag, but then again, I have never cared for graphics as regardless of whether the graphics are stellar or pixelated, if the game is fun, I will have fun.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
5. Loot. You know how you do a raid and only one person can win that rare symbol/clasp if it drops? Yeah, GW2 never thought to screw you over like that. You do a raid and everyone in it gets loot. They don't need to waste your time with 1 tiny chance a week at getting loot like LOTRO because they aren't trying to get you to buy a sub every month. You reckon there'll be as many bugs as LOTRO? Only time will tell but judging from past experiences I highly doubt it.
I can at least relate to this particular point, sure I don't like it when someone snags that thing you wanted and you have to try for it again next time, but overall I run the content for its fun value, not its rewards so it does not bother me overmuch. Honestly it would not be to hard to fix that, even in lotro, if they kept with the system of barter tokens for the set that everyone gets at the finish of the instance then you could get your cool gear as long as you ran the instance a few times. (and to deal with the token buildup, if they would set up the endgame content so that it could be easily scaled once it stops being endgame and converted the token rewards to skirm rewards and converted all the leftover tokens to skirms ones as well they could allow people to keep playing content they like and still keep endgame content hidden behind a wall of tokens that can only be acquired in endgame content).
In essence, sure I agree that many people will leave this game to play GW2, will it be more/less than any other title, time will tell. Will it kill LOTRO, possibly, but not likely. Is LOTRO buggy, yes it is rather buggy(especially in newer content) but I can get over that. In the end, those who are just at LOTRO because it is free/this is where they come while they wait for a new game to come out may leave, but those who are here for the comunity, or their friends, or their love of Tolkien's world(even though LOTRO strays quite far from it at times) will likely stay. Will they be enough to support LOTRO financially, I have no idea, but I hope so as I am having fun playing this game and would be sad to see it go. Those who do not find this game(or games like it) to be fun should probably leave, even though most games try to cater to a wide range of audiences that does not mean they will always make them happy(great example, most PVPers do not seem to like LOTRO's PVP, but my questions to them is, if you do not like the PVP, why are you still here? go play a game such as GW2 or something like it that will offer a better PVP environment, if you are playing for the lore or friends, there are other ways to experience that without torturing yourself, such as roleplaying or simply exploring the world with friends)
I believe the store in the original GW followed the exact same idea.
The only thing that wasn't (from memory) available via in-game means was character slots.
I'm doubtful to this having to change for GW2.
And storage slots. And cosmetics. And weapon packs, and custom heroes, and...
"Life is 10% what you make it, and 90% how you take it." - Irving Berlin Mirkwood ● Isengard ● LOTRO-Wiki
If it's any consolation to you, I don't even look at the PvMP forum, so your assertion about "...every single PvP thread..." is false on the face of it.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Fine, any PvP thread made in the suggestions section then. You and I both know that it seems to be a particular hobby for you and your other half to jump into these threads, loudly proclaim how much you hate PvP and then complain about how it's yet another thread you had to do that in. Small suggestion: stop clicking on clearly PvP related threads.
And storage slots. And cosmetics. And weapon packs, and custom heroes, and...
I'll be honest, I only ever really looked at purchasing the expansion packs through the store.
That being the case then, the information they have released (and from my looking at how their store is going to work) GW2 should be less P2W than the first.
Which, by the way, for the state of the game would have probably been so much better than the current lotro P2W situation.
Fine, any PvP thread made in the suggestions section then. You and I both know that it seems to be a particular hobby for you and your other half to jump into these threads, loudly proclaim how much you hate PvP and then complain about how it's yet another thread you had to do that in. Small suggestion: stop clicking on clearly PvP related threads.
But PvP was only an afterthought in this game, and if you PvP you're clearly lower than a dog, not worthy of an opinion amongst the Elite who would never seek to tarnish Tolkiens reputation by indulging in such trivialities. Everyone knows that PvPers aren't worthy of having opinions, or indeed fit to even play a high brow game such as this, and are only fit for 2nd rate MMOs such as WoW. Why should anyone have the right to make threads about wanting improvements to PvP when there are so many cosmetics missing from the game which are far more worthy of forum space
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
Oh! Oh! Does that mean that there will be no more LoTRO Forum threads calling for open world PvP, layered PvP, expanded PvP, class/faction balance complaints, wanting to let the creeps out of the Ettenmoors and all the related threads? If so...
Hurray!
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
If there was going to be a mass loss of PvMP (with what it has become), it will actually hurt quite significantly.
As much as the carebears(no insult intended) may hate to admit it, Turbine needs people to fill the ettenmoors.
Irony of this is the huge lack of catering to PvP player's needs all the while ignorantly planting destructive systems in the fray is bound to do great harm at some stage.
Fine, any PvP thread made in the suggestions section then. You and I both know that it seems to be a particular hobby for you and your other half to jump into these threads, loudly proclaim how much you hate PvP and then complain about how it's yet another thread you had to do that in. Small suggestion: stop clicking on clearly PvP related threads.
You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Dorothir again.
Although I'm sure no game will ever kill LOTRO, it's a fact that Turbine will loose $$$ by letting the PvP crowd go away. No matter how bad you hate PvPers, the fact is they bring money. And little money is better than no money at all.
PS: you can tell him/them as well that hunters's main stat is agility and Minstrel/LM should have more than 600 will to tackle epic quests before asking for a nerf (imminent request...)
If there was going to be a mass loss of PvMP (with what it has become), it will actually hurt quite significantly.
As much as the carebears(no insult intended) may hate to admit it, Turbine needs people to fill the ettenmoors.
Irony of this is the huge lack of catering to PvP player's needs all the while ignorantly planting destructive systems in the fray is bound to do great harm at some stage.
So respectfully, since your sig points out your dislike of cosmetics, if there was a thread requesting that we hold off on updates to add more cosmetics, would you stay away from that thread? If they referred to the PvP crowd as "Lunchroom Bullies" and said (no insult intended) it would not be insulting?
I don't disagree that PvP needs way more love. If you're going to have something in a game, then it also needs to be supported. I do however believe that the opposition is that it was added half halfheartedly, costs money to maintain and is not the focus (in their eyes and apparently Turbines) of the game.
The problem, in my business opinion, is that once a product is introduced, it needs to make a good return on investment at some point. If it is making a good ROI, then you invest more into it. If it is not, then you need to figure out the direction to take with that product. Making that choice means investing more in changes and refinements or phasing it out. I am in no way suggesting PvP be phased out. I do however think they are evaluating the situation to find some solution.
So respectfully, since your sig points out your dislike of cosmetics, if there was a thread requesting that we hold off on updates to add more cosmetics, would you stay away from that thread? If they referred to the PvP crowd as "Lunchroom Bullies" and said (no insult intended) it would not be insulting?
I don't disagree that PvP needs way more love. If you're going to have something in a game, then it also needs to be supported. I do however believe that the opposition is that it was added half halfheartedly, costs money to maintain and is not the focus (in their eyes and apparently Turbines) of the game.
The problem, in my business opinion, is that once a product is introduced, it needs to make a good return on investment at some point. If it is making a good ROI, then you invest more into it. If it is not, then you need to figure out the direction to take with that product. Making that choice means investing more in changes and refinements or phasing it out. I am in no way suggesting PvP be phased out. I do however think they are evaluating the situation to find some solution.
Some people use the term care-bear to describe themselves as wanting absolutely nothing to do with a PvP atmosphere of any type. If the term offends anyone I can edit my post, I was just simply trying to get the point across. No intention past that.
Also have no specific problems with cosmetics, except when they spend more time giving these minor aspects intended to enhance game play, more devoted resources than they give the actual performance and general game play quality, which to me seems quite apparent a lot of the time these days.
As far as the whole PvP thing goes, I would go as far enough to say that the majority of the PvP community that knows the definition of PvP find absolutely no reassurance that the current developers are evaluating a solution. At least, not from the experience panel of things.
The commendations change, which is quoted to have intended to highlight more PvP, has actually turned off new players from entering PvP and resulted in more PvE and unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Many PvP players left for star wars, and many of these remaining players will no doubt leave for GW2. All likely with the similarly behind the scenes reasoning that they feel like they are playing a game past it's expiry date in terms of their main(or big) reasons for playing.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate this game. Why else would I be commenting here? I have found several well worth years of enjoyment from it one way or another (primarily through PvP in particular).
What pains me, is seeing my primary source of enjoyment in this game in a forsaken state. With little answer to the calls I and others like me cry out, it will eventually come that to retain this enjoyment, our solutions will eventually have to start deriving outside of the reaches Turbine can place themselves.
How about fixing the current content issues before worrying about new stuff ?
I'm sorry but asking Turbine to fix their problems, instead of just spamming us with bug-filled, lazy content, is like asking Spiderman to explain how to shot web... Fruitless!
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Fine, any PvP thread made in the suggestions section then. You and I both know that it seems to be a particular hobby for you and your other half to jump into these threads, loudly proclaim how much you hate PvP and then complain about how it's yet another thread you had to do that in. Small suggestion: stop clicking on clearly PvP related threads.
I'll meet you half way. When PvMPers stop starting threads trying *expand* PvMP, I'll stop posting reasons why it shouldn't happen.
But PvP was only an afterthought in this game, and if you PvP you're clearly lower than a dog, not worthy of an opinion amongst the Elite who would never seek to tarnish Tolkiens reputation by indulging in such trivialities. Everyone knows that PvPers aren't worthy of having opinions, or indeed fit to even play a high brow game such as this, and are only fit for 2nd rate MMOs such as WoW. Why should anyone have the right to make threads about wanting improvements to PvP when there are so many cosmetics missing from the game which are far more worthy of forum space
That's uncalled for. Debate the idea, not the person espousing the idea.
That's uncalled for. Debate the idea, not the person espousing the idea.
The idea that PvPers shouldn't start threads complaining about getting no love, despite being told of an upcoming region that never materialised? They've been strung along with false hopes, given info to get them excited and then left out in the cold again. If Turbine came out and said, we're not doing anything more about PvP really, it's not our focus, most would be off in a shot ( obviously Turbine won't say that even if they know it to be true ), so instead the PvPers get left hanging in Limbo not sure if Turbine are or aren't bothered about PvP. So of course there are going to be threads about it. Do you blame them?
My earlier post wasn't aimed at you imparticular, more the general feeling towards PvPers here as being somehow 2nd class citizens who deserve to get nothing because it was 'never a PvP' game. Which might have some merit, if they hadn't been told they were getting another region not too long ago, giving them the idea that they actually were still important to Turbine, and not just a neglected add-on.
Last edited by monteeburns; Apr 30 2012 at 03:12 PM.
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
I'll meet you half way. When PvMPers stop starting threads trying *expand* PvMP, I'll stop posting reasons why it shouldn't happen.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Not sure if that's meeting me half way. PvMPers can make all the threads they like to expand PvMP. You, on the otherhand, do not need to keep going in with silly counter points ('I want all the developers/I don't like PvMP/You are a minority so you don't get anything') that do nothing to argue for or against the topic, especially considering you know absolutely nothing about PvMP.
You know what meeting me halfway would be? Going into those threads and offering constructive criticism. And no, wanting PvMP abolished is not constructive criticism.
Not sure if that's meeting me half way. PvMPers can make all the threads they like to expand PvMP. You, on the otherhand, do not need to keep going in with silly counter points ('I want all the developers/I don't like PvMP/You are a minority so you don't get anything') that do nothing to argue for or against the topic, especially considering you know absolutely nothing about PvMP.
You know what meeting me halfway would be? Going into those threads and offering constructive criticism. And no, wanting PvMP abolished is not constructive criticism.
So, fundamentally, you wish that all PvMP threads calling for Pv(M)P expansion should be greeted with applause, sweetness and light? Sorry...where the attempt to expand is made, there will be push back. Where there are technical issues, those will be pointed out. Go look, for instance, at the "PvMP World?" thread in the PoR forum.
You misread my intent, anyway. I hate neither Pv(M)P nor Pv(M)Pers. I am irked by that small--probably very small--subset of avid Pv(M)Pers that can't leave the "barrens chat" in the Ettenmoors, but insist on bringing "attitude" wherever they go. Like some others that post in PvMP threads opposing various ideas, I wish to see PvMP remain *purely* consensual, and the way to do that is to keep it out of sight of the PvE areas. You want new skins? Fine. You want Ettenmoors landscape revisons? Fine. You want changes to creeps for class balance? Fine. I may debate some of those points on the likely economics of the situation, but if you can show that it would be financially beneficial to Turbine, go ahead and make your case.
So, fundamentally, you wish that all PvMP threads calling for Pv(M)P expansion should be greeted with applause, sweetness and light? Sorry...where the attempt to expand is made, there will be push back. Where there are technical issues, those will be pointed out. Go look, for instance, at the "PvMP World?" thread in the PoR forum.
I'm fine with push back when it's needed (e.g. letting people know open world PvP won't happen for legal reasons). I'm against people who don't PvP coming into threads that involve changes to PvP or additions to PvP and giving no reason against it other than 'I don't PvP so it means it isn't important enough to focus on'.
I used to have fun in the Moors, but gosh, there just seems to be more problems than ever with PvP here lately. Well, since the last update, that is.
I've kind of given up on it. I enjoy PvP in moderation and since pretty much any MMO I could possibly name does it better than LOTRO, I now go elsewhere for PvP.
Speaking of PvP, GW2's WvW maps were awesome over Beta Weekend. So much potential and lots of fun.
Ho hum. Another thread about how game XXXXXX will kill LotRO. *yawn*
*yawn*
Nobody believes GW2 or any other game will kill LOTRO.
Every new game has the potential to draw customers. A game's success depends on a complicated series of interplaying factors. Some games will do better than others, also due to a complicated series of factors.
Personally, I'm glad there's variety to choose from, even if some games only provide it for a few months or so.
Nobody believes GW2 or any other game will kill LOTRO.
The sheer volume of 'will X game kill LOTRO' threads that crop up every time any fairly well known MMO nears release makes me disagree with that.
I concur with having variety though. Especially since LOTRO is F2P, allowing you to come and go as you wish, there's no reason you shouldn't play more than one.
Update 7 teasers required!
not arguments about GW2.
Zombie Columbus is yet to bring hunters the stuff he planned for U6, when will we hear about them ?
Reduce all commendation cost with 50%
Additional fancy skins for everyone
Thats what I want to hear, not:
Headshot is too massive, 25% reduced to 5%.
WLs aoe rez is now Out of combat... etc...
We found a bug in a bug so we made another bug
I say whoever leaves for GW2 should never be allowed back !!! :P
This is funny, really.
You do realize, though, that many LOTRO players also play other MMOs, right?
I mean, unless you're like my 3-yr-old niece that has a favorite food of the week and will only eat peanut butter & jelly sandwiches, you can prolly grasp this concept.
Some of us more grown-up people know that it is possible, for instance, to enjoy peanut butter & jelly sandwiches AND chocolate chip cookies AT THE SAME TIME. :P
Nobody believes GW2 or any other game will kill LOTRO.
Originally Posted by Nyrion
The sheer volume of 'will X game kill LOTRO' threads that crop up every time any fairly well known MMO nears release makes me disagree with that.
Other games will not kill Lotro. The only thing that will kill Lotro is time and maybe Turbine itself. Witness UO, EQ2, and other MMO's that have been going on for well over a decade and are still around. They also suffered from the "game XX will kill our game" every time a new game was released. I remember reading those threads so often on the US forums that it became a long running joke. Obviously none of them were true either.
Other MMO's haven't died because new MMO's came out. They died because of bugs, horrid game play, lack of content, or other issues directly related to those games themselves. Not due to other games being out there.
New forums are coming!! Goto this link for details
Firefoot: Elendale (hunter) Galorlas (champ) Grimlaff (warden) Corny (warg)
Commenting on this is probably against my better judgement but I will do it anyway.
If the hunter forum hadn't tried to have a public crucifixion of ZC then he might have made an attempt to mention changes he may be working on.
While I agree the way many people treated him on the forums was wrong, people still deserve to know what is happening with their class when it clearly needs work. I don't see the many posts as a reason for ZC not to talk to hunters. The vast majority of hunters never said a bad word about ZC, but the most hateful are the most vocal.
I just hope that whoever it was that broke the wardens doesn't lay a finger on our hunters. Hunters need some work, but they don't need the kind of "help" that was given to the wardens.
While I agree the way many people treated him on the forums was wrong, people still deserve to know what is happening with their class when it clearly needs work. I don't see the many posts as a reason for ZC not to talk to hunters. The vast majority of hunters never said a bad word about ZC, but the most hateful are the most vocal.
The thing is that those hateful people have been running devs off the forums for years. About the only one that seems to be resilient to that effect is Orion while some of the other previous class devs probably have a total of 0 posts to their names.
Commenting on this is probably against my better judgement but I will do it anyway.
If the hunter forum hadn't tried to have a public crucifixion of ZC then he might have made an attempt to mention changes he may be working on.
The bullroarer thingy which Sapience told us bout, is that for U7 or Fornost itself? I'd expect ZC to pop up atleast a day before U7 (even on bullroarer), but then again this just might be for Fornost. I do belive hunter changes are comming and yes, the crucifixion was a waste of everyones time, good riddance to that thread.
(I'd like to have my own little suggestion for hunters . a range skill for hunters which adds 1 focus and works while moving).
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