Thread: Historic Game Play

Historic Play Option


Intro: Where the Idea Came From.
When I started playing LOTRO the level cap was 65, then it was 75, and now it is looking like it will be 85 pretty soon. As I have leveled through areas like the Lonelands, the Northdowns, Evendim, the Misty Mountains, the Trollshaws, Angmar and Erigion I have not always been able to finish group content in a timely manner. I can only imagine that Fornost, Carn Dum/Urugarth, the Rift, and Annuminas served as great end-game content at the time but now they rarely get played. At only lvl 59 I have found myself wishing that I could stop leveling or even go back to a certain level to play this great content before it becomes too easy. How nice would it have been to have played earlier and been locked in at the level cap and been able to play those areas over and over again without leveling through them. I have also had times when friends or kinmates have wanted to do one of these instances and my character is just too high to keep it challenging or a group of 40’s want to do an instance but I’m just too high to keep it a challenge.


Proposal: The Historic Play Option
And from this desire to be at a lower level I have crafted this programming nightmare I like to call the Historic Play Option. Historic play would allow you to put your character at any of a number of preset or choosable levels like 15 (for Shire, Archet and Combe play), 20, 25, 35, 40, 50, 60, 65, 75 and in the future other levels. Each level could have a panel or character slot where you ‘equip’ or store level appropriate weapons, jewelry, armor and class items that you can use at those lower levels when you make the switch. Even a one-way bag (stuff can go in but not out) would work well to store food and other consumables. How nice would it be to keep that equipment you spent hours and hours working to get and still use it long after the next expansion. Of course traits and skills and other character attributes would need to be set to the highest you can earn for that level unless you haven’t earned it yet. Kills in historic play wouldn’t need to give experience and neither would quests if you choose to enjoy lower level areas around the level it was designed for but it always could. With a simple interface like the cosmetic outfits where you could select and then equip which level you would like would be great.


Pros: The reasons Turbine should do this

No Need to Revamp Past Content:
I really like this idea because it would allow me to enjoy all the great content of this game and would still keep it challenging and fun no matter how high of a level I get. I know Turbine has also put a lot of effort into re-tooling set level instances like the Great Barrows and now possibly Fornost so that higher levels can play it and be challenged. Just getting through Moria made me realize just how many set level instances this game has and this proposal would make all those playable on-level for anyone above that historic mark. Just imagine having expansion after expansion with no need to convince Turbine to make your favorite instance scalable or being only able to get 75's and loosing the challenge.

Expanded End Game Interest:
One challenge any game has is keeping players interested. One challenge for a game like LOTRO is to keep people in the game until the next expansion is released. For VIP players there needs to be enough content to keep them interested in paying every month and for F2P people it means something they will want to spend real money or turbine points for. For those who have reached a level cap and are bored with the end game or player-verses-player content they could reset to a historic level and go finish quests they skipped or open a lower level area like Forochel and play that. For VIP players this could adds tons of challenging game play beyond the end game riads. For those F2P people this might mean buying turbine points so they can open up the North Down, Forochel or even Evendim. End game players would then have reason to go back and play those older instances, possibly with still leveling people, so they can get weapons, jewelry and armor for those historic level slots. I also noticed that people who pre-purchased Isengard received a +25% experience gaining item for their pocket which helped them get to lvl 65 faster and I wonder how much content they skipped and would replay now that they are capped at 75 and finished the new content. There is just so much great content to play already in the game that I could imagine being at the level cap and still have tons of fun playing if I could go back and play on level with the Historic Play Option

Lower Level Help and New Player Interest:
With the introduction of F2P and new interest from new expansions there are a lot of players who are working their way up the ranks so to speak. The F2P class of players has now been in the game for over a year and I have found that it can be tough finding help with fellowship quests in areas like the Shire and the North Downs. When I play I would rather not skip quests because I can’t find anyone on-level to help at the moment. Kins are a great source of help for these kinds of quests yet kinmates may not have a guy in the right level range to help without removing the challenge. I know our kin would be very willing to go back to a historic level and help each other out if they had the option. This kind of involvement of Kins could also help new players stay interested in the game and enjoy it long enough that they spend real money on it. One big selling point MMORPG’s have going for them is that they are social in nature. You can meet and hang out with friends while playing your favorite game. Playing the game together is a great way to make friends and the more the new players can be helped the greater chance they will make friends and enjoy the game even more, keep playing and spend more money. This idea also allows people to talk real world friends into the game and use an already established character to help when needed at their level. I can imagine a young adult (18-24) talking Mom and Dad, and possible Grandma and Grandpa into playing and the whole family fellowshipping together. This then get Mom and Dad who are big Lord of the Rings Fans hooked on the game and they buy Turbine Point cards for the whole family for Christmas.

More Time to Develop New Content:
With the rushed release of the last expansion to satisfy end-game players I truly believe this Historic Play Option would keep end game players satisfied for even longer than before especially as future content takes their favorite character far and above old content. So instead of Turbine having to rush out the next expansion they could take more time if needed to get the programing right. This could increase satisfaction when new content was released due to a lack of bugs in the new content.

Unity and Flexibility:
As I have read other posts I have noticed that there are a lot of people in favor of a toggle to turn off experience, or a mentoring system to bring character up or down levels to match. I have also read that people are for and against the rate at which you get experience especially at the lower levels. Some want to level fast, other want to level slow. For all I can crank up the Exp I learn at the lower levels because once I can open a Historic slot I'll transfer my armor over and play on that until I get the content I want to do done. If I want to level fast I'll go into main character mode and level away not worrying if I miss stuff because i can always go back closer to the level if I want to spend the turbine points and unlock that slot. This system would give Turbine the ability to let people level like crazy to get to new content but not leave out slower speed players.

More Turbine Points:
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that an option like this could make Turbine lots of money through the increased sale of Turbine Points or even subscriptions. Not only would end-game user enjoy the game more but new users and current users would have higher satisfaction and we all know that the more you play the greater chance you have of spending money on something. This kind of feature could also have a huge potential for turbine point use. Individual levels could be released and unlocked one at a time if the programming permitted. They could start with level 75 so that all those current end gamers can keep their current stuff and not have to replay it in 4 months. Because this is like having a whole other character I could see spending up to but not more than the amount it takes to open a new character slot (595 TP). It can also be bundled for those big spenders. And no one says it has to be included as part of VIP but if people are paying $10 a month to play they should be able to go to a lower level and enjoy the areas they have open.


Cons: The reasons Turbine might not do this

A Programming Nightmare:
I have no idea the amount of programming this would take for Turbine and only they can decide if the benefits outweigh the costs. If you think this idea is something you would spend money on let Turbine know because I have confidence they can program almost anything they put their mind to.

Decrease in Character Slot Sales:
I could see people not opening as many character slots if they could go back and play their main as lower levels but since they could be made to open up each slot on its own the total Turbine points spent may be more.

Slotting Quest Armor *NEW* Some comments have brought up the idea of what to do with quest armor and how that could be equipped because it doesn't have a minimum level. The simple solution would be to set the minimum level of the armor/weapons/jewelery you get from quests at the minimum level you can take the quest at. Since you can only take quests 5 levels above you this might be the best stuff you can get for that level but maybe not. This would take programing time to assign a minimum level to all those pieces is all and the problem is fixed.

Additions: More Ideas
You are the ones who play this game so add your ideas and Turbine just might use them. Let’s convince Turbine that they should do this…


Alternate Idea: Character Copying
This same concept could be used except instead of having something in-game you would have to go to the character loading screen and load your copy. These copies would be the same class and race of a character you have but at a lower level than you have already earned. You could select a character and instead of "Enter Middle Earth" you click a button that loads another screen with all your copies you've opened for that character or just display them on the main page. Since these slots would be almost like another character as far as slots they could be treated and priced similar to another character slot. Since you have only 17-18 slots you can open maybe they could limit the amount of copied slots you could have too. The way you could fill in the items for these copiedslots (which would work great for when a new level cap is set) would be to copy everything in the armor/Jewelry/ect slots and levels that are in the main character unless they are quest items or over their level. They may end up without everything if you have leveled up everything or are making a copy at lvl 50 and you are at 75. Traits and Virtues and other earned abilities could be set to the max that character could earn for that level and stay there with no chance of making them higher. This character would gets it's own vault space, be able to use shared storage and have a unique name like (Charactername)Lvl50 but would have to earn their own money and supply themselves with consumables. They could also earn their own epic armor sets if they wanted. This character would have all leveling stopped including crafting but they could be allowed to craft. That way you don't have to logout and back in with the main character if someone wanted to give you mats and have you craft something quick. They could gather and process resources too if they wanted too and use the AH and get their own money so they can buy other things if needed. If it worked quest and deed completion could even be linked on these characters so you can keep completing all the quests on a copy.

Who needs to switch experience on and off when you can just load the copy of your guy at lvl 13, 25, 35, 47, 52 or whatever level you want to create your slot for. If you really wanted you could even delete this copy and load another copy of another level but would have to start over with the inventory and bags and money and armor. I could see using a lot of Turbine Points to open these slots for my main guy. I'd rather open a new slot then to resupply my guy every time I wanted to do stuff at a lower level.

Well its definitely one of the better-thought-out plans for down-leveling, and it addresses the problem of scaling level-appropriate gear. However, in doing so, I think you're raising serious database questions. We already know that our inventories are at their max technical capacity for non-wallet items, so I dont know if adding 8*15=120 new item slots per character is even remotely feasible.

And it does still leave one question: quest reward gear, which has no minimum level. If you can take the quest and beat the quest, you can use the gear. That means you could, ostensibly, earn a suit of L75 quest gear and then equip that to your L20 gear set, and of course be monstrously overpowered.

Having that many more item slots could be a problem database wise you are correct. I have no idea how the programing works and whether it would require too much memory or hard-drive space on turbines part I don't know.

As for the quest item stuff there is technically a minimum level you can wear it at. You can only take a quest 5 levels over you I think. A simple solution would be just to put minimum levels on these items which are the minimum level you can take the quest at.

I love this idea! I hope they can find ways to work around the database problem droid mentioned, because it would make it a lot more fun to level if I knew I wasn't leaving behind any friends that didn't play as often!

Originally Posted by BitzM

Cons: The reasons Turbine might not do this:

A Programming Nightmare:
I have no idea the amount of programming this would take for Turbine

Me neither, but +rep to you for realizing that you don't know. It's a pity how many suggestions in this forum contain the words "I know it would be EASY for Turbine to do this!" They don't.

and only they can decide if the benefits outweigh the costs.

Unfortunately, Turbine doesn't get to decide; WB does.

I have confidence they can program almost anything they put their mind to.

Short of completely rewriting the Turbine engine, yes, but that would it would take money, lots of it, to pay lots of programemrs. See above.

I like this idea Turbine could also reduce your level to say for example to 30, add a certain reduction percentage to each piece of armour/weapon/etc so its reduced to the appropriate level (without having to unequip), and grey out any skills your character has equipped which are over level 30 so they can't use them; this would also save a lot of time moving skill slots around each game play session for easy jump into game play fun

/signed!

I hope turbine seriously considers this or even something similar to this. It would be fun to face a lot of the instances I play with purely on level people who have played for a while and know what to do and when to do it like its the back of their hand.

Something else to consider, you'd probably need to have a special inventory bag for each level zone too, for things like on-level pots, food buffs, etc. You obviously cant use your L75 pots and food when you're moving down to a L20 character, but you also obviously cant expect someone to store on-level goods for all those levels in their regular inventory or vault...

I don't believe this would encourage grouping with lower level players as much as you think it might. Scaling instances haven't generated any extra interest in them after their novelty has worn off a month or two in, for example.

Even with general landscape questing content, nothing currently prevents a higher level player from going back and helping lower level players. If higher level players don't want to do this when it's easy for them, what makes you think more people will want to do it when it's more of a challenge? Where's the reward?

I like the fact that you thought this out in such great detail, and I wish something like this could work, but I personally believe it would be a poor use of developer resources.

Originally Posted by Fredelas

Even with general landscape questing content, nothing currently prevents a higher level player from going back and helping lower level players. If higher level players don't want to do this when it's easy for them, what makes you think more people will want to do it when it's more of a challenge? Where's the reward?

I reckon it would be boring to run through something miles under your own level; the challenge of doing it on-level would be enough of a reward for me.

I've had no problems finding higher level players to run through content with me, but I decline those offers hoping to be able to do it on-level - I feel that it's more fun that way.

Not a bad idea, but they've sort of done this already in having scaling instances. So instead of going back in time to level 20 to run Barrows, they've brought Barrows up to 75 for you to do now. That's pretty much the easiest way for them to do this.

I can certainly see them making more instances scalable, but it could be rough having a bunch of historic profiles saved. Maybe have "session play" where you're given a pre-designed set of gear and stats that simulate what a decent player would've had at that level? Then they don't need to record everybody's equipment for many different levels.

You can approximate the original difficulty by just taking less players through the instance. Running Rift with 4-5 level 75ers is a good challenge and requires zero effort from Turbine.

Originally Posted by Vilan

I can certainly see them making more instances scalable, but it could be rough having a bunch of historic profiles saved. Maybe have "session play" where you're given a pre-designed set of gear and stats that simulate what a decent player would've had at that level? Then they don't need to record everybody's equipment for many different levels.

I very much like the idea of group-based session play! It would be interesting if players could choose a session character of a particular class. Rather than scaling the content to the character, this would be scaling the character to the content.

However, once the novelty wore off, I predict this system would also not get a lot of use.

Rather than inventing brand new game systems, I'd still prefer Turbine simply expand on the systems we already have by adding new content. I'll admit it: I'm a novelty seeker.

Personally I like the challenge of doing things on level. I also presented the idea so I would like to see it happen if it is feasible and would make the game better.

Of course people can scale old content to their level by taking less people into the instance but that also implies that you are playing with people your level. I have three alts that I don't plan to play much just so I have characters that I can play with people at lower levels.

I am also one of those people that puts a level range on my requests for a fellowship so that we can play on level even for the scalable instances. I like the idea of the instance finder because it requires that players be within a certain range. The only problem with the lower levels is that no hardly uses it. I wouldn't mind selecting the range of levels I would be willing to play.

Scaling instances only allows you to play content with people at your level. Get someone too much higher or too much lower and the whole group dynamic is thrown out of whack. This idea would literally allow a maxed out character to lay with anyone in the game not just other maxed out people.

As far as the food I hadn't thought about that. Maybe the potions and food would just act like the same type for that level. Like I said this might be a programing nightmare. But that is up to the programers to decide not me. I'm just giving my thoughts and what I would be willing to spend money on.

Wow BitzM
I read the whole thing and it’s a Fantastic Idea/Suggestion!!!

This ties in with the recent thread I read about how LOTRO needs Horizontal Advancement… as in - are we going to be lvl150!? By the time we get to Mordor! If so, how do you keep new people from quitting before the grind ends? Considering none of the mid-lvl content will be experienced due to lack of players/fellowships.

I also have no Idea how programmable this is for Turbine, but this is IMHO a perfect solution.
I wish I could have done the Angmar fellowship quests in the correct lvl, I miss doing a different Moria 6man like every other day, Mirkwood was dead even when 65 was the cap, and OD was just a forgotten memory it seems. Now its just lvl75 Grind Grind Grind!

Please Turbine/WB!
For the Love of Eru Ilúvatar!!!

Originally Posted by Annariel

I reckon it would be boring to run through something miles under your own level; the challenge of doing it on-level would be enough of a reward for me.

I've had no problems finding higher level players to run through content with me, but I decline those offers hoping to be able to do it on-level - I feel that it's more fun that way.

I agree & would love it if an idea like this was implemented.

I've signed on to and argued for an end to level cap increases (and to add new content in the same manner as the Great River region) because of this "obsolescence" of group instances and raids issue, but that is not an idea that goes over well with folks who love level increases and many folks like go back to run instances/raids when they are over the intended level.

Your suggestion seems like quite a complex solution to the problem, but what is great about it is that it would add more options for running content without necessarily disrupting the status quo at all -- it could be implemented without messing with anyone's game.

+ rep for a great idea expressed well

It seems like for now they'll continue to slowly revamp & scale the old instances/raids one by one which, to me, is definitely much better than not doing anything about it.

Originally Posted by droid

Something else to consider, you'd probably need to have a special inventory bag for each level zone too, for things like on-level pots, food buffs, etc. You obviously cant use your L75 pots and food when you're moving down to a L20 character, but you also obviously cant expect someone to store on-level goods for all those levels in their regular inventory or vault...

Actually, I think the potion problem could be solved quite easily by allowing you to keep your crafting skills. Our kin uses a warehouse system to keep track of the extra materials, and our managers always seem to have extra materials. When you were ready to play this "historic option", you could easily and quickly craft yourself (or have a kinnie craft) the right level pots/consumables/food, whatever. Then pass them on to someone lower level when you're done for a while. At worst, in my kin anyway, it might take a day or two's worth of planning for me to catch a scholar and cook on and get the necessary ingredients. Most of the time I could make the food, or have potions made for me, the evening I want to start playing that level. This would be just fine for the times I was going to quest historically, because I could plan ahead for it and stay in it until I finished a quest area (usually several days for me given the amount of time I have to play). If I needed to make a quick run to help a kinnie or a friend, they would have the proper potions and food (and could handle giving them to quest helpers by getting/making extra knowing they might be needed).

Just added some New Ideas that I believe make this even more of a doable proposal for Turbine. It is at the end of the main post called NEW ADDITIONS

Originally Posted by BitzM

Having that many more item slots could be a problem database wise you are correct. I have no idea how the programing works and whether it would require too much memory or hard-drive space on turbines part I don't know.

As for the quest item stuff there is technically a minimum level you can wear it at. You can only take a quest 5 levels over you I think. A simple solution would be just to put minimum levels on these items which are the minimum level you can take the quest at.

Have you been saying that you could just automatically Bipity Bopity boop to level 75, if so, that will not work...

Originally Posted by PierreForever

Have you been saying that you could just automatically Bipity Bopity boop to level 75, if so, that will not work...

No. What I am suggesting is that you can go back in level. So if you get to 75 you could play various other historic levels that you have already been at, thus the historic part.

For example if you had a Guardian and played it to level 75 the original idea is that you could go back and play that character at select levels or ones of your choosing lower then you are currently at. This would let a lvl 75 go back to lvl 24 and play the GReat Barrows with a friend who needs to finish some quests there without doing the board themselves.

Originally Posted by djheydt

Unfortunately, Turbine doesn't get to decide; WB does.

Actually WB lets Turbine have quite some freedom to decide.

/signed

I would love to have this so much. I'm the type of person who hates to leave any content unfinished, and it feels so stupid to go back and try to complete quests and instances that I am extremely out-leveled for. I would prefer this type of implementation over an XP blocker option because it is so much more versatile.

And I don't just see it as a "help a friend" option or a play missed content option -- we have all those groups getting together at level cap to get raid armour -- but if you needed to get armour to support all preset levels, then that would give a purpose to do what was previously end-game content to get the best possible armour for your level... or at least, that's my interpretation of it.

Originally Posted by Cataria

/signed

I would love to have this so much. I'm the type of person who hates to leave any content unfinished, and it feels so stupid to go back and try to complete quests and instances that I am extremely out-leveled for. I would prefer this type of implementation over an XP blocker option because it is so much more versatile.

And I don't just see it as a "help a friend" option or a play missed content option -- we have all those groups getting together at level cap to get raid armour -- but if you needed to get armour to support all preset levels, then that would give a purpose to do what was previously end-game content to get the best possible armour for your level... or at least, that's my interpretation of it.

This is one of the things I miss most about City of Heroes. There you can quest with any level and your level will be changed up to 1 below their level or down to the same level. You keep powers (skills) 5 levels over your exemplared level if you go down. However, they don't have gear quite the same as here.

There are still min levels required for instances and you don't get the quest rewards, but you can still join them in beating on the bad guys. Also, they calculate the XP base on your real level. So if you are on a level 50 mission, with level 50 mobs but you're really level 10 fighting as a level 49 you get XP as though they were level 11. This minimises the power leveling potential.

An option that the game could assign default values to your gear, depending on ideals for your class. This would minimise the need for managing extra bag space.

Originally Posted by Diggis

TAn option that the game could assign default values to your gear, depending on ideals for your class. This would minimise the need for managing extra bag space.

I can't help but imagine the gear slots like little trophies that you have indeed done that content. You could earn it over leveled or at level it won't matter but it is just another fun thing to do especially with the level cap levels.

The more I have pondered this with the RoR coming out the more I like slots for the old Level caps. 50, 60, 65, and 75. Throw in 40 for Anumins/North Down, 32 for GA and 22 (lowest level you can be for Sambrog I think) and there would be something for everyone to enjoy again.

Looked at doing Lothlorian and Doing Great river right now and those would be nice area to do locked in at level caps if they got skipped going to 85.

Another bonus is that Turbine could do more of those landscape group areas if people could down level they might actually find someone to do it with them.

I like the intention of the idea - I have often wished that I could stay in an area that I was having fun in and not out level the area...

I think a much simpler solution would be to be able to toggle on/off experience points at any given point. It would not help with capped toons but it would solve some of the OP's wishes with upcoming toons.

I actually keep a few alts at various levels with the sole intention of being able to play earlier area Instances and Quest at level with my kinnies. It doesnt really work all that well because when i play those quests once with a kinnie I have to remember to not turn in the quest and cancel or I cant do them again - well at least not with being able to have the goals and objectives up on my tracker... and then eventually I out level the area anyways just by slaying mobs... so its a less than ideal solution - simply turning off experience gain would solve that and I would imagine that it would be more doable than what is suggested here program-wise.

The rush to cap is not the end-all, be-all goal to many players - I wish the powers that be would realize this and throw us a bone - an option to turn off XP would do it and not hinder those who just want to level and "Beat the game"

D

it's a good idea but the only reason why i would revert to a level lower than i am currently on is for the task & the rep xp

cause i dont think i'd want to waste time on a quest for the "challenge" when a high level help could do it in a few seconds

& if i were the help, i would rather do it fast & easy w/o any "challenge"

& if i really like an area (quite impossible since all areas are kill this & that, same thing over & over & over...), then i'd probably use tp to buy another character slot

may be the developers could have another look on the skirmishes or introduce new skirmishes that are more fluid (w/o having to stop for counterattack) & with more tactical maneuvers cause the suggestion is very similar to a skirmish

/signed

a good idea.

I'd love to see this added, especially if there was a probability that this happen for PvMP too.

I'd say to keep the mentoring system as simple as possible for everyone or anykind of mentoring system would be a fluke. You should only be able to mentor down in levels

I have and still hope that at some point in the not-so-far future we can implement something like this... I have all chr slots full, mid thirties being my lowest (have been leaving lowers to play with lowers, etc.) and I'm tired of waiting at times to play some of them.

I have RL friends/family that I play with; however, that's few and far between because I usually pick a chr that's closest to their level... Many times it's not close enough, sadly

A couple problems with this:

1) If I'm too high, it's too easy to blow past stuff, i.e. friend/party member gets bored and will eventually lose interest.
2) If I'm too low,... well, you know the story. (I'd have to catch up on story quests, xp issues, whatever...)
2a) This may of happened if we were the same level, but he levelled his 'main' faster, whilst I was offline.
3) If I'm too high: I usually am... I and/or they get bored with me blasting everyone through quests, etc..
3a) Friends lower than me usually don't Really get to play anyway, i.e. skills, group learning, etc.

*Perhaps, as mentioned before, the easiest implementation would just be to scale down stats by a percentage...
You could go the route of greying out higher abilities if you want, but again, don't worry about it if it's too hard to implement.

I wouldn't worry about doing more programming regarding pots/potions/food/etc... Easy fix: buy some that are lvl appropriate. (You can get a discount in your nearest neighborhood for lower lvl out-of-combat foods, as well)
Another nicety, not a necessity, would be to get That lvl appropriate xp. Not needed however.

I'm one of those people that usually goes out of my way to help others. Just give us a challenge (on level) whilst doing it, pls All in all, I believe a good mentoring system would add a great deal of game-play time to everyone, keeping older players and newer players playing longer. And of course it would more than likely enhance Turbine's window of opportunity for making more money since people will be on longer

P.S. I'm not saying that a Mentoring system would be easy programming. I just hope Turbine can come up with something like that that's easily accessible to everyone.