Yea, I cought some of it. I logged over to say hi to some friends and it was like a hailstorm. I tried to divert the attention to something else, like hating plok,m but only one taker. I only caught wind of what happened, but if accurate, its ######.
And IMO freeps 100% deserved to get thier collective butts handed to them.
We cant expect to beat a well organized and balanced raid of creeps with good leadership if we cant even get along well enough to fill one raid. And raid to raid comunication was far from good last night.
All these seperate little groups that cant seem to get along. Everyone who seems to know everything and tell everyone else how to play there class or run a raid.
Support classes not suporting. Healers sick of being target number one and getting zero support saying screw this Ill just DPS at least then I might get a kill before I die. (Which I totaly can understand Ive been there before myself.)
Freeps being so OP for so long has made lazy and sloppy players.
Oh and all the one RK healers should be able to keep at least a fellowship alive all by him/her self....... Only with support.
I dont care how good a healer the RK is. Without SI from a LM, buffs and heals, maybe even a bubble to get you through that first few seconds so you can attune from a cappy. People staying in range of you for heals etc......I know Cel is a damn good healer. I know he/she takes insane amounts of DPS to kill. But, Im pretty sure if you ask him/her they'll agree its not all just them. Its the team working together that makes that happen.
If we as freeps cant work together and support each other and use all our skills to complement each other the creeps will continue to walk all over us.
I just wish we could all get along well enough to kill creeps. But, alas it is not meant to be. As I said last night in OOC; if things dont take a turn for the better soon.......I fear LOTRO's PvMP's death is upon us.
I hadn't PvPd in over a week while levelling my alts. And I can assure you, last night coming out only with my kinship after PvE raiding ToO, I shall certainly not be coming out for a while. It was disgusting.
Combine the hate and mud-slinging with terrible PvP and you have a very gross place.
Yes, I will say that Freeps have gotten lazy, and every player is out to DPS the other side until the commendations and renown flashes on their screen.
I will also say that Freep classes aren't playing their roles.
Healers (Mini's and RK's) are DPS'ing and not healing.
Guardians are DPS'ing and not protecting healers.
Champs? Haven't really seen many Champs lately. But, I suspect they are DPS'ing, since that's about all they can do.
Captains are DPS'ing too much. Although I will say that their buffs are welcome.
Hunters aren't tracking or doing poison removals.
Burglars aren't scouting, de-buffing or antagonizing the healers on the other side.
LM's aren't doing wound removals or stun protections.
Wardens are...Wardens. Still haven't figured out their role in the 'Moors yet.
And no one is listening to the raid leaders. I was in a raid last night that had five hunters, the leader was saying "Everyone on my target", yet just about every Hunter was shooting a different target. Of course, this isn't the first time this has happened, nor does it happen with the same leaders, it happens with every leader. And as just about every player out there has been out there for some time, and - I am sure - have been in a raid or two, I really can't see why people can't follow the leaders instructions. If you're wondering why there are so few leaders out there, that's why.
A raid in the Moors should run like any other raid. Everyone should be doing their role, and if you can't listen to the raid leader, then you don't need to be in the raid.
Granted, Turbine adding a leader-board and commendations to the Ettenmoors was probably a really bad idea, because all it does is ingrain the "DPS them to death" attitude in people just so they can get the commendations and be number one on the leader-board. Oh, and adding commendations for taking keeps was an even worse idea because it kills any other strategy there is for the Ettenmoors due to the fact that every Freep and their pet will want to be there just so they can cash in on the commendations and renown (which makes you wonder if their PvP Dev is really an actual PvP Dev like they said he was...)
And, sure Plok may complain a bit, but he's kicking our butt's, so he must be doing something right.
Pretty sure this outcome was predicted by a certain group of people back just before the SoM. I was one of them. We claimed that the raiding was getting ridiculous and people weren't completely learning their class.
Remarkably enough, people don't seem to be playing their classes properly.
Ironically enough, I am one who has always encouraged playing a class however you want. And I still do. The day War Speech was introduced, I never turned it off.
And Yes, I'm cynical and cold-hearted and don't heal. Ever.
Karathyn Thrace
Psycho Mania
Omnia illa et ante fiebant, omnia illa et ante fient
Ita dicimus omnes
I know Cel is a damn good healer. I know he/she takes insane amounts of DPS to kill. But, Im pretty sure if you ask him/her they'll agree its not all just them. Its the team working together that makes that happen.
While it is definitely augmented by solid team work, Cel is incredible. She is an expert at being an RK.
Pretty sure this outcome was predicted by a certain group of people back just before the SoM. I was one of them. We claimed that the raiding was getting ridiculous and people weren't completely learning their class.
I don't think it has to do with people learning their class, I think it has to do with the fact that everyone has a DPS mentality when they step out into the Ettenmoors and forget about their class roles.
If you're a DPS Mini, that's your choice, but I'm sure you won't end up in many raids that way.
I don't think it has to do with people learning their class, I think it has to do with the fact that everyone has a DPS mentality when they step out into the Ettenmoors and forget about their class roles.
If you're a DPS Mini, that's your choice, but I'm sure you won't end up in many raids that way.
You are probably right, peeps do what they want to do instead of what's being asked of them. Frustrating I know, and after trying so hard to make things right, get peeps organised the way I think would work so well, get skills timed and called so we know what's going to happen next, so we've got 5 more bleeds and 3 more pounces.....
Never happens. Peeps are peeps.
I would suggest, however, that they are trying to have as much fun as they can, in the way that best suits them, that matches their ability, and enjoyment.
It's a game after all, not a job. Nobody is perfect, and the game certainly isn't - so my Fluffy Suggestion of the day/month/year would just be to try to have fun
You win some, you lose some, it's all the same to me.
Love & Hugs
Fluffy Hithy
If I had a penny for every child I ran over - I could maybe afford car insurance
You win some, you lose some, it's all the same to me.
Love & Hugs
Fluffy Hithy
No its not Hithy..... You win some... nothing happens..... you lose some..... we hear the words ''I`m going to get another beer'' with a crazy accent beer bottle pops.....THEN we win more!
What does not kill you makes you stronger....
Though that which kills you makes your mother stronger....
I don't think it has to do with people learning their class, I think it has to do with the fact that everyone has a DPS mentality when they step out into the Ettenmoors and forget about their class roles.
If you're a DPS Mini, that's your choice, but I'm sure you won't end up in many raids that way.
Raiding should NOT be the Point of the Ettenmoors, FFS!
Intelligent players can go beyond their class roles and still win.
You're right, people only focus on DPS and nothing more than that. Sometimes I wonder if Hunters know they have CC skills, or anything beyond HS.
Raiding deteriorates players' ability to know how to play their class.
You're right again, I am not in many raids. Because they're ######, cheap gameplay that offers no challenge.
EDIT: that doesn't mean I'm above tossing back a few drinks and charging out hoping someone (usually Luc, Jaiyne, or Cel) has a plan beyond that.
I could go on, but all I see any more is the Choir. Peeps are gonna do what peeps wanna do.
Play how you want, don't let someone tell you otherwise.
Last edited by Anarionadama; Apr 26 2012 at 01:24 AM.
Karathyn Thrace
Psycho Mania
Omnia illa et ante fiebant, omnia illa et ante fient
Ita dicimus omnes
Yes, there are. But if you happen to be in a raid, you should at least do what you were designed to do, and you should also respect the leader. If you have 12-24 people doing their own thing, then there's no sense in even having a raid.
Sometimes I wonder if Hunters know they have CC skills, or anything beyond HS.
Wait, what? Beyond HS you say? What kind of heresy is this? Buuuuuuuuuuurn (h ot)......
Originally Posted by Fraegster
Creeps are still trying to figure that out as well. If you folks find any answers please to be lettuce no.
Was discussing this with Jaiyne last night. Shield traited wardens have no place in the moors and should be shunned (imo). It's really, REALLY stupid and boring.
I remember when I first rolled my warden in the moors, I was pretty inexperienced with him (in a pvp setting) so I decided to run shield traited. I ran into Fardo and beat him in a 1v1 without even trying. I knew right then that something was very wrong. Clearly, Fardo is/was better and more experienced than me, especially in melee pvp AND I was playing a class which uses a complicated gambit system to use skills. There was no way, in a balanced world, that I should have won that fight, let alone so easily.
Right then I decided to never EVER run shield traited in the moors again. It would have only served to make me a worse player and let me believe that I was more skilled, or playing better than I actually was. As soon as I started running spear-traited, I had SO MUCH more fun it wasn't even imaginable. I lost many 1v1's but each time I learnt what I did well, what I didn't do so well and could do better next time, what my opponent did well and how I could possibly counter it or learn to control it better. Soon I found myself fairly competent at pvping with my spear-traited warden and I was enjoying myself immensely.
Not only that, but I had gained a level of respect by many of my peers and adversaries. People WANTED to 1v1 with me. They knew it would be fun, it wouldn't be never ending, and they wouldn't just be staring at a stationary morale bar until they dropped dead in exasperation.
That's my experience. I respect that other people may have different perspectives and motives, but for me, simply having the ability to identify weaknesses and thus improve as a player, was key. Everything else was a bonus.
Raiding should NOT be the Point of the Ettenmoors, FFS!
Raiding deteriorates players' ability to know how to play their class.
You're right again, I am not in many raids. Because they're ######, cheap gameplay that offers no challenge.
If you think that way, its because youve only been in raid leaded by a *zerg* type player, who rely only on the raw numbers (and DPS) to win the fight. I can assure you that in the old Moors days, when they were still good tactician leaders, you needed everyone to know their class well and use every little bit available to win the fight. Every player and class had his role within the raid.
In combat rez were precious and kept for healers casualties. Now? Just keep a minstrel OOC and AoE rez as soon theres a casualty.
Power debuff was draining power and it was crucial that LM keep feeding the healers with power to keep the raid alive. Now? People start a thread asking Turbine to nerf the skill(s).
Bubbles was a live saver for those heavies coming back from a behind the ennemy line charge and desperatly trying to make it back safely to his healers. Now? They have almost unlimited personnal bubbles they can use after having killed 3-4 targets under ennemy focus fire.
List goes on....
People may like or hate Plok, but hes one of the last (if not THE last) raid leader that still think the old way. And hes not afraid to give his opponants open field battle, even when the odds are not in his favor, instead of hidding in a keep until he can overwhelm the ennemy. Thats because hes asking everyone to perform to their maximum and dont rely on just numbers and DPS output.
Soloing is fun, small group even funnier (when facing equal opponants skills/numbers). But i must admit that over the last 5 years, my best memories in the Moors are related to raid vs raid action and this, on both side...
Last edited by whitefox1313; Apr 26 2012 at 10:53 AM.
If you think that way, its because youve only been in raid leaded by a *zerg* type player, who rely only on the raw numbers (and DPS) to win the fight. I can assure you that in the old Moors days, when they were still good tactician leaders, you needed everyone to know their class well and use every little bit available to win the fight. Every player and class had his role within the raid.
In combat rez were precious and kept for healers casualties. Now? Just keep a minstrel OOC and AoE rez as soon theres a casualty.
Power debuff was draining power and it was crucial that LM keep feeding the healers with power to keep the raid alive. Now? People start a thread asking Turbine to nerf the skill(s).
List goes on....
Soloing is fun, small group even funnier (when facing equal opponants skills/numbers). But i must admit that over the last 5 years, my best memories in the Moors are related to raid vs raid action and this, on both side...
First: your yellow makes quoting rather hard to read.
~~~~~~~~
I have been in many of raids that were lead by a decent tactician. Leekae, Jimmy, Cheiff, Bolesh, Grass, Gagamba, Blackie etc.
They were Fantastic!
But it's not the "Old Moors Days" any more, or else it wouldn't be old. There's no place for Tacticians in a Game full of Nukes, it's why (partly why, I'm sure they all had their personal reasons) most of those people don't come out there any more. The rest of this paragraph is going to deteriorate into leading styles vs. players' following directions, et. al. so I'll skip it for another thread.
Additionally too, as you stated, Turbine's tweak (an understatement) of skills has led to lazyness.
I do find It does come down to playstyle. MY best experiences, despite the wondrous raid fights in places like Ost, DG, or that weird hilly-valley place just north west of ROP were, have been limited to 2-7 vs. 2-7.
Oh the fights with Alpha, Oldbones, Nandir, Mania, Animals, Charrk, Invisus, Mamacass, Ech, Cel, Trin, Eire, etc. etc.
And finally, I admit I've never had the chance to join Plok's raids (as I've been raid-avoidant for a year or two now), I may stumble into one now that I get this bloody cast off today.
Wait, what about Plok? Did I say something about him? I can't remember
Last edited by Anarionadama; Apr 26 2012 at 11:15 AM.
Reason: can't...sentence...properly...
Karathyn Thrace
Psycho Mania
Omnia illa et ante fiebant, omnia illa et ante fient
Ita dicimus omnes
I do find It does come down to playstyle. MY best experiences, despite the wondrous raid fights in places like Ost, DG, or that weird hilly-valley place just north west of ROP were, have been limited to 2-7 vs. 2-7.
Unfortunately when your "2-7" is getting mowed down by 30+ creeps, you're left with no choice but to roll a raid.
So wait, let me get this straight. Freeps have it rough for one night and they fall apart? Please let me know if that's correct. Either way i'll be /Rofltinkling just thinking about it...
Gut ouT!
Creep Main = Gutlard of The White Hand
Freep Main = Snarehelm of Legionnaires
Yeah, but one does get tired of getting mowed down after a while. And how does one compete agaisnt 47?
As Jaiyne can attest to, I go and sacrifice some unsuspecting creeps at the altar of whichever craid leader who decided to faceroll me with their group/raid Gives me that warm and tingly feeling and makes the day brighter
I don't know. When my 1 gets rolled by 2, 7, 24, and 47 (<33), I release, and run back out...
Truth.
Originally Posted by Elderban
Yeah, but one does get tired of getting mowed down after a while. And how does one compete agaisnt 47?
You don't. You go back out and try to avoid the 47 while picking at the edges and smaller groups.
This is the problem with some of the thinking of some "leaders" out there. The assertion that getting more people into ONE group is the way to "win". And yes, win is a VERY subjective term in this case, as are leaders IMHO.
Why is this a problem?
Because if/when BOTH sides apply this thinking it INSTANTLY turns into the worst things about the moors. One side facerolling the other, the other hiding in npcs or logging or switching sides. AND people in ooc stirring angst against the solo/small groups that do NOT join them. Placing blame on them as if they're not contributing which in turn leads to "silent" raids and all the issues that turn up from them.
So my solution?
Get used to dying. It's going to happen, and when it does what's the WORST thing that can happen? You get teleported a couple hundred meters away. No harm, no nothing. Just bounced to another part of the map.
If THAT were the mindset then people in ANY size group could go out there and have fun. How? You determine your risk tolerance level. This is a fundamental idea in game design and if Turbine were smart they'd work very carefully to push PvMP towards a more balanced risk/reward system. Anyhow...embrace a low risk gaming approach? Then raid. Embrace a higher risk gaming approach? Try soloing or small grouping more.
IF the game is designed properly the higher risk will have more pain points, BUT have a higher reward return.
(Note: this is what is wrong with call outs and fight clubbing, it artifically enhances or reduces the risk profiles)
Anyhow...don't EVER want to die? yeah, you need to make sure you're the biggest force ever to step foot on that map. But if you have SOME measure of tolerance for getting killed (again such a minor insignificant penalty for this happening) then get out there and kill some creeps!
Second Marshal Luc Brandenbuck ~Battlemaster~
Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe Champion:'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2
Whenever i read the term "faceroll" I think of this video. The guy speaking is Orakhodegos an LM from E. Orak would get a bit drunk and then would stay up way to late and get very wise.
The video is actually really great too with the shots some of the various wargs on E at that time.
Anyhow...don't EVER want to die? yeah, you need to make sure you're the biggest force ever to step foot on that map. But if you have SOME measure of tolerance for getting killed (again such a minor insignificant penalty for this happening) then get out there and kill some creeps!
Good post meng -- something else to consider too is that at the most basic level, risk is another form of entertainment. If you have nothing to lose, there's less enjoyment from winning.
For example, in many old school games, when you lost people could literally loot your character for your stuff... obviously not the types of games for those who don't embrace that much risk, but that kind of PvP makes your heart beat faster than anything in a game like LOTRO, and when you won, it was exhilarating.
At least, that's how I look at things. I typically tend to stop playing when the PvP becomes not so challenging. (Or TOO challenging, for that matter. I'm not immune to care-bearism. )
Whenever i read the term "faceroll" I think of this video. The guy speaking is Orakhodegos an LM from E. Orak would get a bit drunk and then would stay up way to late and get very wise.
The video is actually really great too with the shots some of the various wargs on E at that time.
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