Thread: If they shelved any class right now, which would it be?

I asked the title of this thread to my server's GLFF channel just recently. The responses were pretty surprising... or not, depending on your point of view. This is how the conversation carried. I've removed names on purpose so not as to disclose any personal information just in case of an angry hunter:

Originally Posted by Riddermark GLFF

Hunter
burglar.. I think
Hunter
hutner no questions asked
sadly i have to agree with hunter ;_;
I still think burglar, but then again, who am I.
Burg is useful
Who would start your FM's then?
quite
burgs are valuable for their cc and fm's
needed for a few things, and thats it
draglioch
i would give burgs some more things in ror to make more ppl want to start one
Hunters aren't exactly necessary tools for any run.
Hunter is really just DPS, they aren't that great when traited as CC and rely heavily on healers in a group setting.
Plus, Burgs are super fun.
indeed
and are good for fms
Burgs do much much more than FM's...
i know that -_-
hunter cc is bad bacause most hunters suck at it, i can lock down 2 targets on my hunter w/ bow legacy

However, one thing that struck me after everything else was this comment made a little while after, and following asking the community if I could repost their comments above. This, in summary, seems to be the biggest issue with the Hunter class:

Originally Posted by Riddermark GLFF

only zc seems to be unaware of anything wrong :/

I agree if they shelved a class, it would be the hunter.

Burgs have our DPS and more realistic CC
Champs have our DPS and aggro management
Lore-masters have much better CC and debuffs and better AoE
Rune Keepers can DPS close to par with us and almost have the same range + self heals/switch attunement if needed
Minstrels can WS DPS + heal
Wardens can ranged DPS (not as much as us but still effective) plus can easily MT now

The only class that can't replace a hunter is a guard, but that's due to the fact that it only has one definition as a class, as a tank; much like the hunter, as the only viable definition most classes see us as is DPS.

(Disclaimer: I do not play the Hunter so I do not know much about the class personally, however my brother plays one alongside my main and I usually get an earful about how neglected you guys are every time a new patch comes out, so my limited knowledge is based off of that and forum lurking)

I try and stay out of these conversations if I can but I have one quick thing to say. From my observation(largely on the forums but somewhat in game talk as well) the general feeling for many classes is that they would like improvement. Obviously this varies widely between individual people and classes, but it does seem to be a trend, if you head to most of the class forums(except maybe champ/Mini) there are several threads with argument raging about whether or not their class needs an update/revamp and what they think should change. With every class there will be some people who like the idea of the class but wish it worked slightly differently( great example This thread in the warden forum talking about how he liked the old warden better than the new warden, he still likes the new, but feels the old was superior).

Even the hunter (which has to be the most widely accepted as being in need of some sort of update from other classes) has some people who feel things are fine the way they are and should not change too much. As an inverse, the Guardian(who is generally considered to be in a good place) had a thread recently that was debating whether Guards were useful anymore with the new Champion tanking(with some going as far as saying that Guards are nearly useless and if they could not compete with the bonus DPS of bringing a champ tank they would not be worth bringing).

I personally think that what ZC said in his RK dev diary about classes being evolved around applies to everyone and that is why these concerns are arising in many classes. People do not like the idea of staying still(even if they are doing Okay) when others who were already fairly Okay are becoming even better/evolving. Most people can get behind a big change when something is clearly broken(such as warden after RoI) but with classes that are overall in a decent or fairly close to decent place, the resistance to change seems much higher.

I still hold out hope for Hunters as well as all those other classes who have felt fairly neglected, that you will all soon see your attention(hopefully positive) that you have been craving and you will get some work done on your class. In my mind it almost seems that Turbine is slowly going through all the classes and tweaking/revamping them where needed in an effort to improve their game. Some of these are seemingly random/QQ driven(such as Mini,Champ, and RK) while others are driven by need (Warden), we have even seen the beginnings of what will hopefully be a bit of attention to PvMP(weaver/Warg).

TL;DR I am chocking much of this angst in general up to evolution envy. People(no matter how well off they are or are not) do not like to be left sitting while others(especially those they compete with) evolve past them. Hopefully Turbine will slowly work there way through all the classes(maybe even Monster ones) and give them each the love they deserve.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

I agree if they shelved a class, it would be the hunter.

Burgs have our DPS and more realistic CC
Champs have our DPS and aggro management
Lore-masters have much better CC and debuffs and better AoE
Rune Keepers can DPS close to par with us and almost have the same range + self heals/switch attunement if needed
Minstrels can WS DPS + heal
Wardens can ranged DPS (not as much as us but still effective) plus can easily MT now

The only class that can't replace a hunter is a guard, but that's due to the fact that it only has one definition as a class, as a tank; much like the hunter, as the only viable definition most classes see us as is DPS.

Hunter's have the best CC for OT, properly set up can lock down a mob with adaptation for 80 seconds, longer then any other class

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

there's a reason we got hunt-ards and not captards, burgtards or the like.

Sure there's a reason - ranged classes pulling aggro is conspicuous and visible and we get blamed whether or not it is we or the tank at fault. No one notices if a burg, champ or other melee class screws up. Everyone sees the rat charging the hunter. And most times if we pull it's through not self nerfing our dps enough, or an 'unlucky' chain of crits, through lack of any aggro decent management tools. Which is a class design fault.

So no I do not accept that 90% of hunters are not as super-awesome as you apparently are.

Originally Posted by Kongas

Sure there's a reason - ranged classes pulling aggro is conspicuous and visible and we get blamed whether or not it is we or the tank at fault. No one notices if a burg, champ or other melee class screws up. Everyone sees the rat charging the hunter. And most times if we pull it's through not self nerfing our dps enough, or an 'unlucky' chain of crits, through lack of any aggro decent management tools. Which is a class design fault.

So no I do not accept that 90% of hunters are not as super-awesome as you apparently are.

I've never considered myself awesome or even super-awesome so keep that to yourself.

Champs, burgs and RKs can just as easily catch aggro and I see that happen as well in DPS races, e.g. Acid T2 Challenge.
I know hunters got aggro issues and I dont mind that hunters grab aggro once in a while.
I mind when they catch aggro on a mob that is NOT the rat, when they never catch aggro of anything (e.g. the Forge in Foundry) because they're doing less DPS than I do on my captain and when they fail to follow even the simplest of mechanics in some instances.

Originally Posted by Catisa

Hunter's have the best CC for OT, properly set up can lock down a mob with adaptation for 80 seconds, longer then any other class

Or you could just kill it?


I don't get these arguments. When we are reduced to looking through trash pulls in raids for "highlights" or shining moments for our class, we're in a bad place. After running OT every week since it came out, I cannot think of a reason to have a hunter CC trait for anything in OT, especially trash. You're effectively wasting a raid spot. Just make the hunter DPS, get an LM or burg and smash stuff. I guess the ONLY time a CC hunter could be useful in those trash pulls is if you lack both a burg and LM. You've probably got more problems than that if you're going in that direction to begin with.


As for aggro and threat... the problem isn't that we can pull aggro, or melees can pull aggro. People will pull every now and then if they're DPSing hard or the tank messes up. The problem is that other classes who have the ability to pull aggro have much better threat management skills. Hunters only have 'oh bleep' aggro management, unless they want to nerf their DPS with endurance.


The main problem is: hunters cannot DPS fully while managing aggro on a consistent and reliable basis. Yes, we can nerf our own DPS and run endurance. Yes, we can slot -threat legacies and spend points on them rather than DPS-increasing legacies instead. We just need to be happy that the devs haven't implemented long-duration fights where players are required to DPS while moving a majority of the time, otherwise we truly would be useless. But, then all the PvEers would understand why PvP hunter struggles so much lol, so maybe its not a bad idea.

biggest issue has to be that stats are out of balance since ROI came out. The gear we have encourages bad imbalanced builds and quite frankly makes them a necessity to compete with those who are stacking their main stat. This applies to tanks as well less damage equals less threat generated, so guys stacking all vit and little might will not hold aggro as well. Same applies to hunters more agi and less vit means you can generate more aggro but die if a boss breathes on you, and the gear available to most just hit 75's is at best half what a well geared player will have. There is now a huge disparity between the lesser geared and better geared. One example is a guy I did a foundry t1 with. He had just hit 75 and had 600 agi and 4.8k morale. I am intermediately geared myself and have 1600 agi and 6k morale. The difference is staggering and despite his best efforts he died 10 secs into the last boss fight on nearly every attempt. The difference between me and a high end raider is nearly as big if you factor in the gain in dps from a faron set with infinite focus and fleetness. Right now I can do 1.4k dps for 30 seconds and no less than 1k just doing IQS->IPS. If I don't start in endurance and take it easy I will easily pull aggro from most tanks even the one in my kin who has 800 or more might. Question is am I making too much threat or is the guard making to little. Frankly on my warden who is in the 50's I have little issue keeping aggro in the skirmishes I have done with my kinmates and I don't yet have the wardens bests skills for transferring threat. I wonder if that will change as I cross 65 and my build gets out of balance.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I'd be serious about it. I love my own hunter and still I cant stand about 90% of hunter players on my server because they fail (hard) at such a simple class. No wonder others feel the same when they have probably teamed up with such hunters. After all, there's a reason we got hunt-ards and not captards, burgtards or the like. Even this forum puts in #'s if you write #######, doesnt happen to any other class afaik.

Hunters have issues, saying it's a broken class and/or it ought to be shelved is just way off.

I very much agree with this, my hunter is by far my most played toon and it makes me sad seeing people unable to grasp such simple concepts that are just inherent to mmo's in general which ends up giving us a bad reputation, and in turn having people rage that the class is broken because frankly they just aren't getting it. I will also concede that there are some serious shortcomings in the class that could be fixed and the like but nothing beyond reprimand that would indicate that we are hopelessly "broken" and deserve to be axed. In short, I have always played my hunter, and I will keep on playing my hunter to the best of my abilities, working to be the best hunter that I can be regardless of whatever the devs do, and WHEN they do make changes, I will adapt to suit them whether I, or the greater community at large deems them good or bad and live with it until they inevitably change the class again. And life goes on.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I'd be serious about it. I love my own hunter and still I cant stand about 90% of hunter players on my server because they fail (hard) at such a simple class. No wonder others feel the same when they have probably teamed up with such hunters. After all, there's a reason we got hunt-ards and not captards, burgtards or the like. Even this forum puts in #'s if you write #######, doesnt happen to any other class afaik.

Hunters have issues, saying it's a broken class and/or it ought to be shelved is just way off.

I'm not saying it should be shelved at all, I'm just saying that the general sentiment against the hunter as a major/useful class is quite high right now from within the hunter community as well from out. This is due to the "90% of hunter players" not knowing the class, but also because we only have one useful output, and if you don't know how to maximize that output (DPS) then you are neither useful or needed for anything. I can say that 90% of any class is "fail" as well, but that's beside the point.

From an outside view of the hunter, we can easily be replaced by people who are distrustful of hunters due to the bad ones they've played with. Since our volume of players is highest by far of any class, of course we're gonna get a bad rep, therefore I'm guessing most players would agree that if (not saying it would EVER happen, as its just a preposterous idea) Turbine needed to remove one class, it would be the hunter.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

I'm not saying it should be shelved at all, I'm just saying that the general sentiment against the hunter as a major/useful class is quite high right now from within the hunter community as well from out. This is due to the "90% of hunter players" not knowing the class, but also because we only have one useful output, and if you don't know how to maximize that output (DPS) then you are neither useful or needed for anything. I can say that 90% of any class is "fail" as well, but that's beside the point.

The fact that we only have one useful output shouldnt really be much of a surprise though, and should make it easier for players to understand what its all about. Furthermore, we're one of few classes where solo play is not that much different from fellowship, healers and tanks have to adjust a lot more between those two. Yet most of them can do that more or less successfully.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

From an outside view of the hunter, we can easily be replaced by people who are distrustful of hunters due to the bad ones they've played with. Since our volume of players is highest by far of any class, of course we're gonna get a bad rep, therefore I'm guessing most players would agree that if (not saying it would EVER happen, as its just a preposterous idea) Turbine needed to remove one class, it would be the hunter.

Any class can easily be replaced, though there are more choices on the DPS slots.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

The main problem is: hunters cannot DPS fully while managing aggro on a consistent and reliable basis.

And that's the point! I just wish the devs would finally notice that (well, *that* and a bit more survivabilty)

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

As for aggro and threat... the problem isn't that we can pull aggro, or melees can pull aggro. People will pull every now and then if they're DPSing hard or the tank messes up. The problem is that other classes who have the ability to pull aggro have much better threat management skills. Hunters only have 'oh bleep' aggro management, unless they want to nerf their DPS with endurance.

I despair that we keep having to make this same point. Other classes that can pull aggro have skills to lose it. We have no such skill. Other classes have more robustness or assorted bubbles and self heals. We don't. And why don't we? Not because we're super-powered but because the small amount of dev attention we had was squandered on useless changes by a dev who spectacularly flounced out of the forum, never in serious practice to return, when his original ideas were rejected.

Only the Wardens have suffered more recently but at least that is recognised and being addressed.

Each update the 'Hunter' section of the change notes is non-existent.

We're basically a pre-ROI class with the stat cap removed and nothing has been done to address the issues that have arisen from the huge changes in gameplay mechanics.

Sure - we can keep on keeping on making the best of a bad job but we shouldn't have to. It's long beyond time we got some of the informed and sympathetic developer time every other class has been getting.

I'm not a well experienced player. I've had a quick go with every class and have settled for my hunter and champ
Personally i love dps roles. I'm more of a solo player so there's no point me really having a character that doesn't do very good dps.
Out of the hunter and Champ I prefer my hunter just because when i'm playing i get to plan my attacks more and move about the game weaving in and out of enemies, and striking off any that cross my path using a quickly thought out plan which involves how quick the attacks take, how strong they are and which will be most effective compared to when i play the champ and i literally just think i'm going to kill that guy run up and use the strongest attacks that become available. I think the hunter is more interesting!

I think the question is dependant on play style.

As a hunter [i don't know about anyone else but] i'm always expected to deal with the adds and protect the healer. I think that's a really important job! CC roles can protect healers but when you have say a burg helping the champs and guardian out and already working their ### off, who comes to the rescue? The hunter shooting high dps across the room and gaining agro. As a hunter i can stand back with the healer(s) and witness everything that's going on, every enemy and every other player.

I think perhaps i'm too low level right now to fully understand what most hunters complain about and how great the other classes are because i haven't played them past level 15 but i think the game would really miss hunters if they left. The way i hear it Captains weren't particularly desirable until Isengard? but that's just what i've go from reading forum posts xD

Originally Posted by RachelSophia

I'm not a well experienced player. I've had a quick go with every class and have settled for my hunter and champ
Personally i love dps roles. I'm more of a solo player so there's no point me really having a character that doesn't do very good dps.
Out of the hunter and Champ I prefer my hunter just because when i'm playing i get to plan my attacks more and move about the game weaving in and out of enemies, and striking off any that cross my path using a quickly thought out plan which involves how quick the attacks take, how strong they are and which will be most effective compared to when i play the champ and i literally just think i'm going to kill that guy run up and use the strongest attacks that become available. I think the hunter is more interesting!

I think the question is dependant on play style.

As a hunter [i don't know about anyone else but] i'm always expected to deal with the adds and protect the healer. I think that's a really important job! CC roles can protect healers but when you have say a burg helping the champs and guardian out and already working their ### off, who comes to the rescue? The hunter shooting high dps across the room and gaining agro. As a hunter i can stand back with the healer(s) and witness everything that's going on, every enemy and every other player.

I think perhaps i'm too low level right now to fully understand what most hunters complain about and how great the other classes are because i haven't played them past level 15 but i think the game would really miss hunters if they left. The way i hear it Captains weren't particularly desirable until Isengard? but that's just what i've go from reading forum posts xD

You are right. We do play the overwatch role. The difference is that in the past we could see th Big Bad running towards the healer, pull it and deal with it comfortably even in melee. But at End Game now these things hit really, really hard. Even the secondaries. It can be biff-baff-boff, game over. End game content could not do that to us before. We had the resilience needed to be effective in that role.

Nowadays the mitigation and armour changes leave us a lot more vulnerable in melee while the extra dps is not enough to compensate.

What some of us are saying is:

'Okay - we accept that the tactical damage and armour changes leave us more vulnerable and those gameplay mechanics are not going to be changed merely for our benefit.

So how about giving us some healing skills more adapted to this new situation? Some active aggro management tools? You know - like you've given everyone else.'

I'm not asking for us to be made into one of the over-powered super-classes like champs or minstrels. Just some recognition that times have changed and like other classes, we need work done to adapt us to the unintended consequences of the new mechanics. (apart from the never-ending need for something doing about ToF).

Look at all the recent patch and update notes. Something for every class in every one of them. Except hunters.

Our money is as good as everyone else's and it is about time Turbine invested some of it in competent, informed, non-flouncing dev time.

All that Kongas said. Testify, brother. +rep.

In the past I would have loved to read ANY post about shelving the hunter. As a guard I hated you all. Trying to convince hunters to stay close enough for WR to leech aggro, Str stance hunter flinging 3 arrows past me as I ran in to try to get aggro and hunters then posting how Hunter groups downed the Watcher..... and posting 20k heartseekers made me hate all of you. Now I will tell you as a tank in a raiding kin, that Guard aggro skills have not advanced at the same rate as dps has. This makes the hunter more of a problem than help. Hunters with max agi builds crit at astounding rates and even with Guardian Threat it is very easy for a hunter to get past 128% of my perceived threat. In a tank build, a guards dps is the lowest of any class. Our aggro skills have not been given any real increase and a high agi hunter with a first age WILL pull aggro if he goes full out. Yes, you can do some amazing dps, but without a way to manage that threat you are not helping. As a guard if I know Heart Seeker is coming I can do some things to keep aggro, but if you crit 3 times in a row with Quick shot you may easily take aggro from me. In the time it takes you to do 3 quick shots I MAY be able to get 5k in perceived threat if I get a block and my threat skills are not on cooldown. Other classes have ways to deal with this. I am not asking for more as a guard, I believe that hunters truly need a good way to manage aggro. If you do not get it, I will continue to seek out other classes if I am building a pug group, and I know I am not alone. Hunters have one real role and without a real way to manage aggro, you are often more of a problem than help.

'Asked...'?

You spammed the question continuously for at least the full one hour I was logged on yesterday, and I assume a day before that.

Care to share why you would treat fellow gamers so?

I see an elaborate trolling. I dislike having to use ignore on strangers but no matter of reasoning made you give up pasting this question to Trade, Regional, glff - over and over and over and over and over and over and over

Originally Posted by Macroscian

'Asked...'?

You spammed the question continuously for at least the full one hour I was logged on yesterday, and I assume a day before that.

Care to share why you would treat fellow gamers so?

I see an elaborate trolling. I dislike having to use ignore on strangers but no matter of reasoning made you give up pasting this question to Trade, Regional, glff - over and over and over and over and over and over and over

Cant say that surprises me at all

Originally Posted by Djasi

snip

Hunters have one real role and without a real way to manage aggro, you are often more of a problem than help.

Seems like you described us having NO role at all. While a little angry of a post, I agree with most of what you're saying. Yes, hunters have derp players who pull aggro, but guardians have bad players as well. A great hunter is about as effective as swinging a wet paper towel at a boss if we have to watch our DPS like a hawk when with a bad tank.

Since it goes both ways, all most hunters are asking for is a way to manage aggro so we can deal with situations that call for a less-than-savory tank or so we can just do close to our max DPS without worrying about pulling aggro anymore. When burgs are parsing 2.6k DPS while ccing and no aggro is being taken, and hunters parsing 2.0k DPS pulling aggro off main tanks, there's a serious problem.

Zulu, you are right. As I see it now, hunters really do have no real role, and what is worse this community is not helping itself. So many hunters want to focus on your cc aspect instead of what the class is supposed to be. The hunter should be the undisputed king of single target dps. No question about it. Because the hunter really has one role, with a secondary role that is useful but performed better by other classes designed for it, its primary role should be undisputed. This community should be angry that a utility class like Burg is even close to your dps let alone ahead of you and has the ability to stack in ways hunters can only dream of, while at the same time a primary healer can also compete with you on dps. While RKs may be slightly behind Hunter with dps parses, they remain so close and bring sooo many ther things alongs with their dps if I had to choose between 2 equally geared players I knew nothing about, I would choose the RK 99% of the time. Your fix should allow for hunters to once again be the choice if dps is what is needed and right now that means a viable means to reduce threat and a boost to hunter dps IMO.
Also, I do agree that aggro is a two way street. I ran Forges the other day with a Guard who must be in the moors a lot. He danced around, never kept mobs faced the right way, and in general was worthless. I was on my hunter and as much as I tried I could not keep from taking aggro from him over and over. The difference is, he did have the skills he needed to have done his job. He was a fail Guard. The hunter is slowly becomming a fail class.

Ok, an 'anti-hunter' thread in the hunter forum? Sounds like a ploy to me, but I'll play along for laughs.

First off, ANY hunter who uses the word "hunt-ard" does not take their own class seriously and probably doesn't play it as often as the others they may have, and this is a greater part of the problem.

Why does the class need to be shelved, when there is a better and cheaper solution? If you don't like hunters, yet you play a hunter, delete your hunter and use that slot for something you are sure would do better. You see, since hunters are such a lousy class, if they get deleted across all the servers all our raid fail problems would be solved and raids would run flawlessly.

But, since this isn't happening, could it be because hunters who pull aggro can handle the aggro? Using the right stance with the right sequence of attacks can help a hunter to easily manage aggro, but so can destroying the mob(s). If we weren't supposed to pull aggro why is that ability input into the game dynamic? Might it also be because hunters never rage-quit, or abandon their allies; that we wait patiently for our leader to find replacements to the rage-quitters?

The hunter is a most honorable class, a main reason I choose to play one and have it dominate my game time.

Hey at least we have one role, ranged DD with competitive dps.

I remember times, where we were a taxi and a poison curer, nothing else :-)

Originally Posted by Noridan

Ok, an 'anti-hunter' thread in the hunter forum? Sounds like a ploy to me, but I'll play along for laughs.

First off, ANY hunter who uses the word "hunt-ard" does not take their own class seriously and probably doesn't play it as often as the others they may have, and this is a greater part of the problem.

Why does the class need to be shelved, when there is a better and cheaper solution? If you don't like hunters, yet you play a hunter, delete your hunter and use that slot for something you are sure would do better. You see, since hunters are such a lousy class, if they get deleted across all the servers all our raid fail problems would be solved and raids would run flawlessly.

But, since this isn't happening, could it be because hunters who pull aggro can handle the aggro? Using the right stance with the right sequence of attacks can help a hunter to easily manage aggro, but so can destroying the mob(s). If we weren't supposed to pull aggro why is that ability input into the game dynamic? Might it also be because hunters never rage-quit, or abandon their allies; that we wait patiently for our leader to find replacements to the rage-quitters?

The hunter is a most honorable class, a main reason I choose to play one and have it dominate my game time.

This is in no way an anti hunter thread. This is a thread to show the discrepancies between what we're supposed to be able to do and what we can actually do. My main is my hunter, and the only class I've put any real time and effort into. No one is saying the hunter is actually going to be shelved, it was just a general question to uncover the real concerns the hunter community has about our class.

Hunters who pull aggro CANNOT handle the aggro. That's also a problem. We're not talking about instances where we blow through the trash and boss in 30 minutes. We're talking about ToO T2, where teamwork, aggro management, insane heals, positioning, timing, are all extremely important. If we can't DPS efficiently and effectively WHILE managing aggro, we're very much a "useless" class, for lack of a better word.

And saying the hunter doesn't rage quit or is an honorable class is quite silly as the class has nothing to do with the person playing behind it. I know of tons of hunters who rage quit when things aren't going well. Each class has a number of players who will stick it out for six hours a day on the weekend to learn new trash pulls or boss fights, and players who, when after one wipe will rage-quit.

No one with a hunter would be discussing this if we all hated our hunter. We would just have given up and played a different class like you said. We're trying to make it better for everyone, not just let Update after Update give nothing to hunters, who are in need of a significant change/fix/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

This is in no way an anti hunter thread.

Oh, it's an anti-hunter thread alright. Since it was started in this forum as an excerpt from an actual chat log, and since the intent of that chat and this thread is more than obvious to this hunter I shall stand by my original interpretation. However, I shall peruse the other class forums to see if I can find whether this thread was started in any of them, to be fair and open minded you know. Should I find it elsewhere, I will get back to you.

Originally Posted by Noridan

Oh, it's an anti-hunter thread alright. Since it was started in this forum as an excerpt from an actual chat log, and since the intent of that chat and this thread is more than obvious to this hunter I shall stand by my original interpretation. However, I shall peruse the other class forums to see if I can find whether this thread was started in any of them, to be fair and open minded you know. Should I find it elsewhere, I will get back to you.

Arguing about whether or not this is an anti-hunter thread is pointless. The OP posted the chatlog to show what other people think of the question posed. Then used it to analyze further the state of the hunter class and open it up to discussion on our forums. That has been going on until you decided that it was an anti-hunter thread.

I don't see any other postings going back in forth between classes on this forum going "Hunters suck" "No they don't!" "Yes they do!" which would be indicative of an hate-rant thread really.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

We're talking about ToO T2, where teamwork, aggro management, insane heals, positioning, timing, are all extremely important.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

Yes, hunters have derp players who pull aggro, but guardians have bad players as well. A great hunter is about as effective as swinging a wet paper towel at a boss if we have to watch our DPS like a hawk when with a bad tank.

Would we not assume that kins/groups who have a T2 calibre raid team would have a solid tank who would allow us to be able to do (near) our maximum sustained dps? Sure, I will admit that throwing a burn hot and needful haste while running improved fleetness is likely to pull aggro off anybody (I will admit to doing this) but that isn't exactly a good example of sustained dps as these skills do have cooldowns, but based on your logic, a T2 group should have a good tank, with which it should be more likely to be able to do a decent amount of damage. I also feel that much of the collective angst in this thread is in relation to pugs where all people (not just hunters) are often a mixed bag. Oh well.

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

Would we not assume that kins/groups who have a T2 calibre raid team would have a solid tank who would allow us to be able to do (near) our maximum sustained dps? Sure, I will admit that throwing a burn hot and needful haste while running improved fleetness is likely to pull aggro off anybody (I will admit to doing this) but that isn't exactly a good example of sustained dps as these skills do have cooldowns, but based on your logic, a T2 group should have a good tank, with which it should be more likely to be able to do a decent amount of damage. I also feel that much of the collective angst in this thread is in relation to pugs where all people (not just hunters) are often a mixed bag. Oh well.

Yea it looks like I was a bit mixed in my argument, but either way, hunters still are in need of an aggro management skill while allowing us to pump out DPS like other classes. That'll allow us to DPS a little harder in pug runs, and DPS to our full potential in kin T2 ToO runs.

Hunters problems are pretty obvious.
Djasi summed them up pretty well.
No other role except dps and they can't dps.
(There isn't significat difference in dps from other classes with have useful roles. And hunters would pull aggro anyway, if they had better dps.)

Some hunters are good. But it's like saying some people are more dangerous with wooden sword than others with machine gun. But still machine gun >> wooden sword.

I would say that about 50% of the complaints I hear/see about the Hunter class is based on people's false assumptions of what the class is, and what it can do. People think they're going to get a WoW hunter or a GW ranger or some sort of other hybrid warrior/ranged DPS class that fights well both at range and close quarters. While I think this was also the original idea, the Hunter has been, for a long time now, the LotrO equivalent of a mage or similar high DPS caster class in other games. You stay at range, you do your DPS at range. If something gets close, you try to run away and dot it down or use some sort of panic button. You do NOT engage in melee, unless you are fighting an easy opponent, and only one of them. So many people roll a hunter and think they're going to be either Legolas or a Wow hunter or something in between. I can understand the disappointment, when what they get is a medium armor wizard shooting arrows instead of fireballs.

Originally Posted by MannyCalavera

I would say that about 50% of the complaints I hear/see about the Hunter class is based on people's false assumptions of what the class is, and what it can do. People think they're going to get a WoW hunter or a GW ranger or some sort of other hybrid warrior/ranged DPS class that fights well both at range and close quarters.

But that is what we were before the game mechanic changes to armour and mitigations etc turned us from a capable off-tank to glass cannons. That was not that long ago.

Since my hunter reached lvl 65 about two weeks prior to the launch of RoI I can not comment much on what was before, neither is there anything for me to miss. That either helps me to have a less tainted view on the matter or makes me just ignorant, depending on your point of view.

I personally have no problem with the hunter's main role being that of the best single target DPS in the game. At range to boot. That is why I chose the class. And even over on the Champion boards they seem to agree on this ( around post 143 ). I also accept that this has to come at a price. If we want the utility of a lore master, we also will get the DPS of a lore master. So we are relatively fragile and should avoid being hit by any mobs. Seems quite a natural thing to me. On a side remark regarding the previous posters: WoW hunters never were anything else.

The problems I see are the following:

1) Threat, as has been mentioned by many already. No need to elaborate. What good is our DPS if we can't deliver it? Instead of cooking up some alibi utility skills rather aid us in fulfilling our main role. How I would love to have Ebbing Ire on my hunter.

2) Public perception. A large part of the player base just does not recognize the importance of good DPS in a group. And DPS has - opposite to say maximum morale - a very low visibility in this game. That may also have to do with the fact that it involves significant effort to measure it in the first place (CombatAnalysis).

3) Encounter design. Closely related to 2). No matter what you give to the different classes, as long as the current PvE encounters do not demand these capabilities to be utilized it will be futile. If in most encounters DPS does not matter as much, we are of course less wanted. If the whole group has to bunch up for the whole fight directly behind the boss one of our strengths - range - is invalidated. If for some unfathomable reason encounter mechanics debuff a boss twice as strong against melee damage than against range damage it is no wonder everyone wants a champion.

But not all is doom and gloom. I really like the new Roots of Fangorn instance. Yes, only a six man but still. Both boss fights allow hunters to shine. The first one gets a lot easier if shamans (and pesky goblins) die fast, and the second one seems almost made for Hunters. In both our range is a true boon. Just yesterday I read the following line in our globallff channel. Multiple times for different groups forming: "RoF T2 5/6 hunter needed". Hunter ... needed ...

4) Overall class design. So hunters are the best single target DPS class in the game. As a consequence in a fight where something has to die as fast as possible you of course stack ... Burglars. As long as Reveal Weakness stacks the way it does now our strength will have a hard time being recognzed. Not to mention all the other balancing nightmares this one skill in its current form is bound to cause in the future.

My perception would tell me Hunter, but that's maybe because it's my "main".

No, don't get me wrong, i believe and have no doubt that a hunter is superior in DPS & Dmg to anyone else. Nothing comes close to a 2400+ agility hunter with over 25% crit rate.

The Issue? The current game design. There is no way not even a reasonable how anyone (Guard / Champ / Warden) can tank a hunter aiming for maximized damage. None. To Arms, Oathbreaker, burglar debuffs, minstrel buffs everything scales a hunter beyond any sane desire by the devs and hope for a Tank.

The result? You get punished for even trying to maximizing damage by the game design. So everyone (forcefully) takes a slack stance, we add up mitigations and morale, we artifically lower our dps and only try to maximize it for the few precious seconds we are 100% safe to do so. But at that we are now on a compareable level to anyone else who does DPS but with lower utility and group benefit.

No, CTD, Engage, Threat Stance swapping of guards is enough to keep an all out hunter in check. Every Instance & Raid design punishes to much dps even Draigloch) either through direct punishment, (Boss aggression) or indirect punishment (Group can not keep up and wipes / hit fields get undesired additional adds).


So when we play "perfect" but still restrained everyone loves us. But than we are as good as any dps.
And that's why people percept us as exchangeable because we are. Your real secret role of superior dps is infact, undesired.

Originally Posted by Sagit

The problems I see are the following:

1) Threat, as has been mentioned by many already. No need to elaborate. What good is our DPS if we can't deliver it? Instead of cooking up some alibi utility skills rather aid us in fulfilling our main role. How I would love to have Ebbing Ire on my hunter.

Ebbing Ire would be nice, but tbh I'd much rather see Beneath Notice changed to something like what Fighting Withdrawal does for the Captain:

A fighting withdrawal can aid the Captain in living through a harsh battle. This skill lowers your threat to your opponents around you and greatly lowers threat gained from doing damage for a short while.

That would make BN a proactive skill rather than a reactive skill, you'd have to use BN before unleashing hell upon your enemy rather than pulling aggro, BN for 10-20 secs then pull aggro again.

Originally Posted by Sagit

2) Public perception. A large part of the player base just does not recognize the importance of good DPS in a group. And DPS has - opposite to say maximum morale - a very low visibility in this game. That may also have to do with the fact that it involves significant effort to measure it in the first place (CombatAnalysis).

99% of players know DPS is needed to complete instances. What keeps many people from inviting hunters is that they often cannot deliver DPS nor much else to the group. Some hunters cannot deliver DPS because they're just plain bad at playing the class, other hunters have given up because of aggro issues and maximized -damage threat while not bothering to really throw some arrows out there, giving a very low-aggro, low DPS hunter. While I understand the aggro issues, the real challenge for the hunter is to maximize DPS while not taking aggro and if the hunter is not up for that challenge the group is better off with another class in the fellow/raid.
I often trait Stealthy Shot and use Endurance Stance 90% of them time in an instance/raid if I'm unsure about the tank, that gives me -20% damage threat and QS lowers threat. Sure, this lowers my potential DPS but I should still aim for as high DPS as possible to fight for my spot in the fellow.

Originally Posted by Sagit

3) Encounter design. Closely related to 2). No matter what you give to the different classes, as long as the current PvE encounters do not demand these capabilities to be utilized it will be futile. If in most encounters DPS does not matter as much, we are of course less wanted. If the whole group has to bunch up for the whole fight directly behind the boss one of our strengths - range - is invalidated. If for some unfathomable reason encounter mechanics debuff a boss twice as strong against melee damage than against range damage it is no wonder everyone wants a champion.

But not all is doom and gloom. I really like the new Roots of Fangorn instance. Yes, only a six man but still. Both boss fights allow hunters to shine. The first one gets a lot easier if shamans (and pesky goblins) die fast, and the second one seems almost made for Hunters. In both our range is a true boon. Just yesterday I read the following line in our globallff channel. Multiple times for different groups forming: "RoF T2 5/6 hunter needed". Hunter ... needed ...

Most instances, especially ToO, would be advantageous to hunters imo if only our aggro issues were sorted out.

Originally Posted by Sagit

4) Overall class design. So hunters are the best single target DPS class in the game. As a consequence in a fight where something has to die as fast as possible you of course stack ... Burglars. As long as Reveal Weakness stacks the way it does now our strength will have a hard time being recognzed. Not to mention all the other balancing nightmares this one skill in its current form is bound to cause in the future.

As much as Acid T2 becomes a laugh with burglar pack (we tried it this week in my kin, killed him in 1 minute 17 seconds lol), I still see several advantages to the Hunter over Burglars. A Burglar is epic DPS against 1(!) enemy where he can put his RW+CD on and stab away. The second you need single target DPS on different mobs (e.g. DPS boss, then an add, then another add, then boss, like Shadow Tier 2) the hunter is way ahead of the burglar because the burglar will need to relocate, reapply debuffs and then start DPS'ing where a hunter just presses Tab a few times before going on like nothing happened.