Thread: Gear vs. Skill and the Future of LOTRO Raiding

I think the issue is just with T1/T2. Though I didn't play it when it came out, I often heard people describe LotRO as a more story-driven sort of game that catered to a more casual crowd than other MMO's. Since playing the game I've seen loads of people describing it as being easier/less grindy/less competitive than other MMO's.

My guess is, in order to court the more "hardcore" people who will naturally leave other MMO's as they mature, Turbine added the T1/T2 option as a way of leaving T1 for people who were happy with the difficulty of content in LotRO's history, while hiking up the challenge in T2 for LotRO players looking for tougher content (and possibly considering leaving themselves out of boredom with easy content) as well as to hook in people who previously thought of the game as too easy.

Naturally, people who were good at pre-OD content and got the best rewards in the game but who aren't quite good enough (or don't run with other very goood players or whatever) for the new, tougher T2 stuff are going to be upset that they're no longer sporting the best gear or able to beat the toughest stuff the game has to offer.

I think two big compounding factors are that 1) as has been stated, with every level cap increase there's this exponential increase in the work it takes to get your toons "raid ready" and 2) ToO T2 came out at a time when lots of the more hardcore people left for SWTOR.

I think there's possibly a big difference from server to server when it comes to that last element. I know that, before RoI, my kin was running 4-5 static raid groups with a few other open invite raids, near the top of the raiding heap on my server in terms of beating T2 content. SWTOR came out and the kin population took a major hit; well over half the hardcore raiders quit the game (a few still log on once a week for the raid) and many that were left were disappointed in the lack of raid progress happening so left the kin for other kins, only to find the same things were happening server-wide, leading to more disappointment and more leaving the game.

The resulting situation is that there are very few kins (2 to my knowledge) left on the server capable of beating T2 content with kin-only (or nearly so) players. The rest of the raid groups are cobbled together kin alliances that appear to be a mix of hardcore types who like the game too much to leave (or who have moved on, mostly, and log in for the raid and that's it) as well as casual players or newer players such as myself who didn't really have the connections to get into the more hardcore groups.

If your server is anything like that, I think the solution is, now that more and more of the raids that have more casual players are getting experience (and gear) doing T1, they might not need to rely on those "leftover hardcore" people to be successful at T1. Seeing the actual raid, and beating the bosses & getting their deeds and armor, are likely the goals of these more casual people. If they can do this on their own now, maybe it's time for the more ambitious people to stop running with these kinds of groups and start building more serious kins/static raid groups to take on T2.

Too bad the ToO teal sets are only really minor upgrades from the Draigoch armor in most cases. In your scenario, the T1 purple gear would have to be better than Draigoch teals (T1 ToO is substantially harder than Draigoch, and if T1 is for casuals, what motivation will they have to complete a much more difficult raid for downgraded armor?), and the T2 teal armor would therefore have to be better still.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I think there's possibly a big difference from server to server when it comes to that last element. I know that, before RoI, my kin was running 4-5 static raid groups with a few other open invite raids, near the top of the raiding heap on my server in terms of beating T2 content. SWTOR came out and the kin population took a major hit; well over half the hardcore raiders quit the game (a few still log on once a week for the raid) and many that were left were disappointed in the lack of raid progress happening so left the kin for other kins, only to find the same things were happening server-wide, leading to more disappointment and more leaving the game.

The resulting situation is that there are very few kins (2 to my knowledge) left on the server capable of beating T2 content with kin-only (or nearly so) players. The rest of the raid groups are cobbled together kin alliances that appear to be a mix of hardcore types who like the game too much to leave (or who have moved on, mostly, and log in for the raid and that's it) as well as casual players or newer players such as myself who didn't really have the connections to get into the more hardcore groups.

If your server is anything like that, I think the solution is, now that more and more of the raids that have more casual players are getting experience (and gear) doing T1, they might not need to rely on those "leftover hardcore" people to be successful at T1. Seeing the actual raid, and beating the bosses & getting their deeds and armor, are likely the goals of these more casual people. If they can do this on their own now, maybe it's time for the more ambitious people to stop running with these kinds of groups and start building more serious kins/static raid groups to take on T2.

I agree, LOTRO raiding may be cyclical, and more casual raid groups may be forming as we speak. Is T1 content preparing them for T2 and getting the most out of their characters? Maybe, but it may not be difficult enough. And that still leaves the question of what it is that causes this part of the cycle and whether or not it's necessary. But something for me to think about, definitely.

I do wish that non-kin raid groups weren't the best answer, but I have to admit that I am guilty of fostering this style. In Moria, I played a lot more than my kinmates and ended up running content with friends in similar situations rather than continue to lead my kin. 4 of us ended up forming a chat channel to connect different groups, and eventually many of those in the chat channel went on to form Professional Awesome, a hardcore raid kin on Brandywine.

Anything that encourages more raid groups, kin or not, would be a good thing in my book, though.

Originally Posted by Souku

so i do understand where Frisco is coming from, but i think the problem is not that T2 is too hard, the problem is that the rewards for T1 are too good, sapping the motivation of people to learn T2 unless they are in one of the so-called "hardcore" raiding kins. they should have made a purple set for T1 (along with purple drops from the chests) and reserved the teal items for tier 2.

Another good point. 1st Age LIs might not be enough to push people to do T2. And yeah, I don't think T2 is all that much more difficult than past raids. Maybe the trash is turning people off. It's one thing to spend weeks wiping on a boss, because you know when you beat it, you'll get the loot along with the sense of accomplishment. But I've been in a few groups that have high aspirations (and go so far as to explain their DKP rules and instruct me to get the "necessary" plugins) and then spend hours and days wiping on the 1st trash pull. And I see them getting discouraged.

There may be things that can be done to make raiding more inclusive and attractive to more people other than making content easier. It's most likely a combination of a lot of little things that have contributed to the current state of LOTRO.

Originally Posted by Southpa

What casual groups could beat the Balrog on level? Any entire raid for that matter? There have been exactly 2 raids that are PUG/casual friendly: Turtle, Draigoch. In the era of Radiance, raiders were forced to be "not casual".

Just naming groups that I raided with regularly?

Council of Galad
Lost Boys
Fellowship of the Fourth Age
Runic Knights
Order of Methedras
The Balrog PUG group I ran every Wednesday night with GLFF people

And Radiance didn't force people from being casual. There were plenty of kins and PUGs beating Vile Maw without being hardcore. And when I say "hardcore", I mean by attitude. Certainly many of us played a lot of hours, but there was no need for inspecting or plugins or DKP.

CStats was around in your so-called "heyday" of LotRO. Did it ruin your game experience then?

I never knew about it, let alone knew anyone who used it. So no, it had no effect.

I hesitate to even touch this... and if it is the case, "Bob", why don't you do something for "Bob" instead of expecting "Bob's" virtual world to cater to his whims?

I think if you go back and read my posts, knowing that I am not Bob, your tone may be different. But probably not. It's just as easy to suggest to people who want more difficulty that they do current content with fewer people or wearing no pants or with 3rd Age LIs.

We all want our virtual world to cater to our whims. I think the number of people who would quit LOTRO if difficulty were tuned down a notch is fewer than the number of people who have left in the years since LOTRO has catered to hardcore. In the end, we're all minorities wanting to be heard--80% of people in the game are content to chase envelopes around Bree--don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Another good point. 1st Age LIs might not be enough to push people to do T2. And yeah, I don't think T2 is all that much more difficult than past raids. Maybe the trash is turning people off. It's one thing to spend weeks wiping on a boss, because you know when you beat it, you'll get the loot along with the sense of accomplishment. But I've been in a few groups that have high aspirations (and go so far as to explain their DKP rules and instruct me to get the "necessary" plugins) and then spend hours and days wiping on the 1st trash pull. And I see them getting discouraged.

i think it is the fact that the trash all respawns on a wipe that makes it so much harder for people. for example in BG the last few pulls before the twins required some planning and good execution to do without wiping. but it would not stop groups from completing the twins because they could just zerg down a mob or two each attempt before wiping and eventually clear the trash and get to the boss.

Originally Posted by Frisco

And Radiance didn't force people from being casual. There were plenty of kins and PUGs beating Vile Maw without being hardcore. And when I say "hardcore", I mean by attitude. Certainly many of us played a lot of hours, but there was no need for inspecting or plugins or DKP.

Perhaps the fact that things are now more wide-open makes people more susceptible to inspection? When you're in a kin, you have the luxury of communicating these things before a raid or instance happens. You're always hanging out together, talking shop - whatever. Before they removed caps, things were pretty darn cookie-cutter and it sucked IMO.

Putting today's much more wide-open builds in the context of strangers, I can understand why people inspect and get inspected more. We don't let people go anon even in our kin runs (never did, though). I can understand why someone would want to make sure you're worth taking up a spot in a T2 raid. The problem with complaining about things like that is it makes it too self-centered. Raids take-up 12 people's time - not just yours. Hell if I'm going to bring someone in sight unseen - and if you think you're up to snuff, you should have no hesitations about being inspected. But along with that, yeah, you probably need to make sure you're built to the hilt - and as I said, that's all readily attainable by even a person without the luxury of an "uber" kin behind them. I see those types of players on my server all the time.

Originally Posted by Frisco

I think if you go back and read my posts, knowing that I am not Bob, your tone may be different. But probably not. It's just as easy to suggest to people who want more difficulty that they do current content with fewer people or wearing no pants or with 3rd Age LIs.

I was saying you sure sound like "Bob", not that you were claiming to be.
And you've never done a naked run before? For shame...

Originally Posted by Frisco

We all want our virtual world to cater to our whims. I think the number of people who would quit LOTRO if difficulty were tuned down a notch is fewer than the number of people who have left in the years since LOTRO has catered to hardcore. In the end, we're all minorities wanting to be heard--80% of people in the game are content to chase envelopes around Bree--don't take it personally.

Believe me when I say that people have also left due to the dumbing-down of the game just as well. I think they have a good medium right now aside from the wide gap in difficulty between T1 and T2. T1 doesn't really prepare you to take that next step to T2 because T2 is just so much more.

I just want enough "my game" to keep me occupied for the amount of time I have to play. I don't care what else is in there with it. And I never take anything personally.

Originally Posted by Southpa

I was saying you sure sound like "Bob", not that you were claiming to be.
And you've never done a naked run before? For shame...

Yep, I've done all number of things to make the game fun and challenging. 6-manned Thaurlach on-level, Vile Maw speed runs, 6-man Draigoch...there were times in Dar Narbugud that a fellow Champ and I would run around in circles after a kinmate uttered a pre-determined key word, and would not stop until someone noticed and said something about it.

Challenges are already in the game for people who want them. What "I want difficult content" usually means is someone wants to be able to epeen their gear. But that's a different topic altogether.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Challenges are already in the game for people who want them. What "I want difficult content" usually means is someone wants to be able to epeen their gear. But that's a different topic altogether.

Not sure how anyone can "epeen" about their gear when everyone has the same ToO/Draig armour combinations and the same skirmish/Limlight jewellery.

If you really don't have people wagging their 1st Ages around in glff, then I really want to build a time machine and go back and create my characters on Landroval.

Originally Posted by Frisco

If you really don't have people wagging their 1st Ages around in glff, then I really want to build a time machine and go back and create my characters on Landroval.

No, we don't. Haven't seen it yet. We have some Moors drama once per month, and politics and religion hour during weekends though.

Originally Posted by Frisco

If you really don't have people wagging their 1st Ages around in glff, then I really want to build a time machine and go back and create my characters on Landroval.

it's pretty rare on Arkenstone as well. with the state of the game as it is now you pretty much have everyone with the same exact gear. i am the main tank in the top kin on my server and i think the only things i have that tanks in tier 1 kins/pugs don't is the vit/morale/tact mit/finesse cloak from shadow t2 (which is basically a side-grade from draigoch) and a first age weapon that i pretty much only use in the moors. the gear gap simply isn't there.

Originally Posted by Souku

the gear gap simply isn't there.

We've had several people join kin better geared than I am despite never completing T2 until they joined kin. Kinda amusing, seeing as hunter is my main for our main raid team...

Originally Posted by Frisco

For 5 years, I've watched LOTRO raiding become more and more hardcore and non-inclusive. Content has been made more difficult, slightly, but the gap between a well-geared person and a person with average gear has widened much more.

True, but this was to introduce players who played more to become everything they wanted and to have challenge in raids. Lets be honest the fact the we 5 manned all of BG hardmode at level 65 is pretty sadly easy and boring. Players who are casual are still welcome to get anything they want. Raiding on t1 difficulty for fun, acquiring the same raid armor through t1, a solo person can acquire everything I can in a raiding kinship aside from a first age which can still be acquired by a) finding a lightning group b) buying it with money c) opening a loot box d) having a friend give it to you.

Originally Posted by Frisco

In turn, that means fewer people are able to do the most difficult content. People with the most time and in a lot of cases who would formerly be able to complete content with kinmates now have to seek out raiding groups or kinships.

I don't really see the logic here. If you play extremely little chances are you haven't had any time to get good at the game, so chances are you would just fail at it? Here is the problem: RIFT was the perfect world like you are saying I totally agree with you, you could bring brand new horrible players (i was there myself) and still win. It was fun and amazing. The problem is that the game has moved on a few years enabling veteran players to become one with their toon. If you introduce a end-game content raid that can be done with 3-4 noobs in each raid makeup on t2 challenge then the vets will get bored (which is honestly the majority of the population, the solid anyways) and quit. Turbine you could say chose the lesser of 2 evils and gave us too hard, not too easy content.

The introduction to very hard challenges has been an exciting road for the raiding kin populations leading to all sorts of forum threads, end-gaming possibilities but with the t1/t2/t2c dimension allowing players to choose their capability.

Originally Posted by Frisco

My "whinge" is that there aren't many, if any, raiding kins filled with the kinds of people I like to play with. And their shelf lives are short--there's not a single SoA raiding kinship doing T2 Challenge content that I know of on my server. They also seem to have more drama, and be more openly concerned with gear and epeen. This is fine, except there are very few options for people who don't play that way.

Again I disagree I'm not in all kins but speaking for my kin we are very open about loot, honor system for just about everything if I'm ever leading I post a first age and let the people roll who know they are supposed to roll, if there is jewelry and you already won one that night you pass, very simple. Every member has also played since SoA.

Originally Posted by Frisco

I would gladly trade difficulty (or the gear gap, but that seems to make them way more money) for fun with friends (for more people--not saying raiding kins aren't having fun as well). And this isn't just about me--I have friends I join for raids when I have time anymore. I merely prefer the community when there isn't such a big difference between casual and hardcore. Just an observation over the years.

I agree with your overall observation. What it really comes down too is the game has been out for half a decade and that leads to the need for hard content or the loss of customers. Pretty much all of the raiding kins would go to other games which are the "eldars" of the community. We are the people that inviting pugs to T2 runs, people that lead moors raids, people that answer noob questions in public channels and tells.