Thread: Gear vs. Skill and the Future of LOTRO Raiding

The removal of stat caps and the ever-widening gap between 1st and 2nd age weapons has given birth to a very gear-centered community that I'm starting to feel doesn't exemplify the Middle Earth vibe I once loved.

Teamwork and communication have been trumped by DPS races and CombatAnalysis.

Does anyone think this is something that will ebb and flow, and Turbine will overcorrect, or should we expect that the gap to widen?

Tank classes actually take significantly less damage thanks to stat differences between classes. I fail to see how that is a bad thing (of course OP Guards got nerfed to obvlivion, but I'll take that trade). Overall, the game mechanics are vastly better with the removal of the stat caps, actually allowing for some real specialization.


I would love to know what inspired your post. Did someone tell you that you weren't doing enough DPS and you came here to whinge about it? I think the solution is to get yourself some new friends to group with ...

Both stats and skill are important. Thats the way it oughta be, imo.

I strongly disagree with the second sentence. Even this required teamwork and communication. They darn sure had a gameplan.

Gear is important, but a bad player with perfect gear is still a bad player. I'd pick a good player with a few hundred less of their main stat every time.

True, T1 Acid wing requires no teamwork, just DPS. True, Shadow wing requires no teamwork, just DPS.

However Lightning wing requires no significant DPS, just teamwork. In fact, too fast DPS can overwhelm some groups.

Fire and Frost requires teamwork, DPS isn't irrelevant, but not important.

All the trash in all the wings requires teamwork, so much so that people complained about how hard it was initially.

Saruman requires teamwork, not DPS. Foundry requires teamwork. Dargnakh Unleashed requires no DPS at all. Pits requires teamwork. Fangorn teamwork AND DPS.

The only level cap instances that don't require teamwork are Roots and Draigoch. They are both just mindless DPS.

I'd say it has nothing to do with the "illusionary" removal of stat caps, as diminishing returns means the number isn't technically capped, just has essentially no increasing effect, but everything to do with design of instances.

(All the Moria instances save Turtle require teamwork; Helegrod, teamwork; "In their Absence" instances, teamwork.)

I was thinking this the other night, one effect I'd love to see used more is significant reflected damage. It was always amusing to see level 65s take themselves out in GB Thadur when his reflect was up. The amount of damage folks do now, they'd probably two-shot themselves.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

I'd say it has ... everything to do with design of instances.

(All the Moria instances save Turtle require teamwork; Helegrod, teamwork; "In their Absence" instances, teamwork.)

/facepalm as always; try doing stuff on t2 and you'll find teamwork is needed ...






Ironically gear is much less important for DPS races (hardly important at all as DPS races always have huge margins for error) than it is for fights where a lot of damage is taken (and you need high mitigations).

Certainly the difficulty of instances has been increasing for a while, and if you want to complete tough content, teamwork is more essential than ever, as is having decent gear (especially high mits where needed).

Originally Posted by Evendale

I would love to know what inspired your post. Did someone tell you that you weren't doing enough DPS and you came here to whinge about it? I think the solution is to get yourself some new friends to group with ...

For 5 years, I've watched LOTRO raiding become more and more hardcore and non-inclusive. Content has been made more difficult, slightly, but the gap between a well-geared person and a person with average gear has widened much more.

In turn, that means fewer people are able to do the most difficult content. People with the most time and in a lot of cases who would formerly be able to complete content with kinmates now have to seek out raiding groups or kinships.

My "whinge" is that there aren't many, if any, raiding kins filled with the kinds of people I like to play with. And their shelf lives are short--there's not a single SoA raiding kinship doing T2 Challenge content that I know of on my server. They also seem to have more drama, and be more openly concerned with gear and epeen. This is fine, except there are very few options for people who don't play that way.

I would gladly trade difficulty (or the gear gap, but that seems to make them way more money) for fun with friends (for more people--not saying raiding kins aren't having fun as well). And this isn't just about me--I have friends I join for raids when I have time anymore. I merely prefer the community when there isn't such a big difference between casual and hardcore. Just an observation over the years.

Originally Posted by Evendale

/facepalm as always; try doing stuff on t2 and you'll find teamwork is needed ...

Given, and emphasizes my point. But the OP was talking about where teamwork wasn't required. Also, despite our demonstrating how few instances rely on DPS trumping teamwork, continues on the same vein.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Content has been made more difficult, slightly, but the gap between a well-geared person and a person with average gear has widened much more.

...

I merely prefer the community when there isn't such a big difference between casual and hardcore. Just an observation over the years.

I believe you'll continue to see this as the level cap goes higher. Stats are widening just do to the mathematics of it. DPS classes will continue to do more, meanwhile the incoming damage will increase, and classes without crit defense won't be able to take a single hit. (Unless they pull a "Moria", and RoR gear isn't much different over RoI gear.)

It was interesting they made 75 content all about tactical mitigation, avoiding B/P/E and resistances. Perhaps it was to prepare players for a future with Finesse undermining those stats? I also laughed at the "removal of stat caps" with the introduction of diminishing returns and a stat reducer (Finesse). In general, folks have lower overall stats than before proportionally speaking, without realizing it.

I'm with ya' though, it's way cooler when folks can integrate, rather than "sorry, we can't do that run with ya', as you won't survive the first attack". It sucks to be on either side of that issue, not having enough folks to do a run, or not being able to join it yet. What's more, the nature of people who push the hardest, seeking perfection, are that they push more and are less tolerant. Is that truly a change due to the structure of the game, or just the structure of the game is enabling their nature to show more clearly?

However gear-wise, you'll note that the solo armour at 75 (Draigoch) isn't that different than raid gear (Orthanc). Also the disparity between 1st age weapons and 2nd age is less than 2nd age and 3rd. There has to be enough spread to incentivize folks to run raids (the limited rewards of ToO a common complaint) but not so much that those end up trivializing the other content.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

What's more, the nature of people who push the hardest, seeking perfection, are that they push more and are less tolerant. Is that truly a change due to the structure of the game, or just the structure of the game is enabling their nature to show more clearly?

I think the structure of the game is encouraging people to act the way they do. And yes, it has probably always been in their nature, but suppressed, since when there were plenty of options people could choose not to play with you and still be successful. As the pool of potential raid members gets smaller, raid groups will be more likely to put up with less desirable personalities out of necessity.

Originally Posted by Frisco

My "whinge" is that there aren't many, if any, raiding kins filled with the kinds of people I like to play with. And their shelf lives are short--there's not a single SoA raiding kinship doing T2 Challenge content that I know of on my server. They also seem to have more drama, and be more openly concerned with gear and epeen.

I know of at least two raiding kins on Landroval that started in open beta, and that are still doing T2 challenge mode content now. I know from personal experience (one of them) and more or less trustworthy hearsay (the second one) that they aren't filled with drama and gear/epeen concern. So......I'm sorry that this does not appear to be the case on your server.

Originally Posted by Frisco

The removal of stat caps and the ever-widening gap between 1st and 2nd age weapons has given birth to a very gear-centered community that I'm starting to feel doesn't exemplify the Middle Earth vibe I once loved.

Teamwork and communication have been trumped by DPS races and CombatAnalysis.

The community might be more gear-centered these days due to the difficulty of the raids. In yesteryear it was possible to bring along that hunter with "questionable" LI choices on his 3rd age, wearing purple quest items and filling the remainder with yellow items. But that simply won't cut the mustard these days when people are trying to clear T2 ToO. Why waste the time of 11 people just so that you can include this hunter? These T2 raids are pretty much gated by good gear, and refusing to get good gear, only to bring down a raid due to it is selfish in my opinion.

Like Evendale said though; it ain't all about the DPS. A lot of fights require very high mitigations. My burg has 2.1k agility but no mitigations and has been 1-shotted by Saruman. Also, teamwork and communication is as relevant and necessary these days as it has always been.

If turbine toned down the difficulty of the raids then you would find that raid leaders would be less stringent on who they take because the content could still be completed. Only then would the Middle Earth vibe you once loved be restored.

You're right about CombatAnalysis though - it totally sucks!

Originally Posted by Frisco

For 5 years, I've watched LOTRO raiding become more and more hardcore and non-inclusive. Content has been made more difficult, slightly, but the gap between a well-geared person and a person with average gear has widened much more.

I agree, LOTRO is getting so hardcore that I'm probably going to leave because I have no time to work for hours and hours on end (in one sitting), for several days a week, just to be a decent player. It's taken me 2 years to get to where I am now, and I still am not that good.

Originally Posted by Frisco

People with the most time and in a lot of cases who would formerly be able to complete content with kinmates now have to seek out raiding groups or kinships.

My "whinge" is that there aren't many, if any, raiding kins filled with the kinds of people I like to play with. And their shelf lives are short--there's not a single SoA raiding kinship doing T2 Challenge content that I know of on my server. They also seem to have more drama, and be more openly concerned with gear and epeen. This is fine, except there are very few options for people who don't play that way.

I would gladly trade difficulty (or the gear gap, but that seems to make them way more money) for fun with friends (for more people--not saying raiding kins aren't having fun as well). And this isn't just about me--I have friends I join for raids when I have time anymore. I merely prefer the community when there isn't such a big difference between casual and hardcore. Just an observation over the years.

Originally Posted by Zioloth

I agree, LOTRO is getting so hardcore that I'm probably going to leave because I have no time to work for hours and hours on end (in one sitting), for several days a week, just to be a decent player. It's taken me 2 years to get to where I am now, and I still am not that good.

I think half of the players in our kinship aren't hardcore-players (they don't even have the new jewelry-set) - we have only 2 days we go raiding - we were the first Kinship on our Server killing Shadow T2, Shadow CM, Fire&Frost T2, Acid HM (regular withour Burgstacking)...

I don't think it's all about Time and Equip - Skill matters a lot...

Originally Posted by Frisco

I would gladly trade difficulty (or the gear gap, but that seems to make them way more money) for fun with friends (for more people--not saying raiding kins aren't having fun as well). And this isn't just about me--I have friends I join for raids when I have time anymore. I merely prefer the community when there isn't such a big difference between casual and hardcore. Just an observation over the years.

Why aren't you content with T1 raids then? From this paragraph you basically say you want to do T1 raids, so you don't have to raid with the "kind of" (ridiculous generalization) people who run T2 content. I expect this kind of statement is the entire reason they made T1 raids.

The whole gear/content explanation is just a stupid excuse* for the fact that you want be carried through the toughest content (T2) so that you can feel good about yourself, without being scolded for playing badly, and without having to put up with some testosterone fueled kids.

* With rare exception (eg: Shadow T2 tank, and the currently uncompleted by anyone fights), you do not need good gear for the vast majority of T2 OT



I don't want to not be given difficult content just because poor Frisco and co. (who claim they would happily do less difficult raids if they were around, cough T1 cough) had unrealistic expectations that 11 other people wouldn't mind failing lots, and ended up having a few people be rude to them when they tried to do tough content.

Also I have zero sympathy for someone who insults Combat Analysis in their opening post. Why don't you go out and write a happy-clappy plugin that encourages people to not epeen instead of instigating that my plugin is somehow the cause of your problems?

Originally Posted by Evendale

* With rare exception (eg: Shadow T2 tank, and the currently uncompleted by anyone fights), you do not need good gear for the vast majority of T2 OT

our Guardian for Shadow T2 CM last weekend had 12/13k Moral Buffed (only a Twink and 2 Weeks 75) (he was the bosstank - not the Uruk-Tank) but this is a fight where good DDs could make it a lot easier...

i have found that success in tier 2 ToO has very little to do with gear and is all about teamwork and communication. i have completed three of the challenges with toons using second age LIs and wearing a mix of draigoch and skirmish gear, all of which are easy to get by players. if anything the gear gap between easy (t1) and difficult (t2) is too small, t2 should have better rewards.

Originally Posted by Frisco

The removal of stat caps and the ever-widening gap between 1st and 2nd age weapons has given birth to a very gear-centered community that I'm starting to feel doesn't exemplify the Middle Earth vibe I once loved.

Teamwork and communication have been trumped by DPS races and CombatAnalysis.

Does anyone think this is something that will ebb and flow, and Turbine will overcorrect, or should we expect that the gap to widen?

I'll echo what Souku said. It's much less about gear than it is about teamwork and understanding the content. This is no different than it's ever been. The trash is less forgiving, but still I'm sure that plenty of people spent lots of time wiping on BG trash, some of the OD trash, etc... BG was less forgiving actually because there was no way to dial it down. It was what it was.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the justification here when T1 offers much of the same rewards as T2 and T1 is a faceroll other than Saruman. If you aren't gear-centered as you claim, you shouldn't give a rip about the T2-only drops in the first place, right?

I think the "widening gap" you're perceiving is a result of the people you interact with as well as you being left behind. The gear grind is easier than ever before and what is available in 3 or 6-man content, as well as bartered gear, is plenty enough to allow you to complete the T2 challenges others have completed.

When we have a challenge goal in mind, I make sure our kin puts its best feet forward. Some players are just better than others - that's the truth. I don't put such groups together based on what gear the person has at all. It's not even a consideration. The only considerations are how well they play their class and how well they work in a 12-person group. That's it completely. And so far, I have yet to be proven wrong.

You can go back in to that same content with 4 different players who are geared relatively the same as the people they replaced and never have a chance. This has happened in dozens of raids I've lead.

If anything, the gap you're seeing is the further refinement of the skill and awareness level that is needed to beat the hardest content. The way it should be.

I think free to play makes raiding kins very leery about pugging.


There is a definite correlation between f2p and age, since kids are less likely to convince parents to dish out a subscription. This is not a rule, there are amazing f2p players, and terrible sub players, but I know I get very scared when inspect someone before inviting and only see 1 or 2 legendary slots @ lvl 75.

I can't comment on the OP's kin experiences, but he does have a point about the widening gap between raid-ready characters and non-raid-ready characters.

There is a very, very big gap between characters in instance/skraid jewels, barter armour and optimised LIs on the one hand, and crafted/rep gear on the other. There always has been a gap, but it was not such a chasm as to be unbridgeable by player skill and co-ordination.

My kin (a raid kin) is seeing this in the number of people being willing to tool-up multiple characters. Large numbers of previously raid-capable toons languish at lvl 65 or crafting in Galtrev because the effort required to get them up to Orthanc T2 standards is so much greater than was the case for (say) DN and BG.

I also know of a good number of kins which raided with some success pre-RoI who are not doing T2 Orthanc *at all*. It is too punishing, requires too much tweaking.

This is my personal problem with the difficulty of Orthanc T2. It is wholly out of whack with what LOTRO has been like for 5 years. Hard content is good, content not everyone can do is fine, content that challenges players' skill and kins' teamwork is terrific. But Orthanc goes too far down that road; it is too divisive, too exclusive. IMO

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

There is a very, very big gap between characters in instance/skraid jewels, barter armour and optimised LIs on the one hand, and crafted/rep gear on the other. There always has been a gap, but it was not such a chasm as to be unbridgeable by player skill and co-ordination.

I totally disagree.
Never before has it been so easy to get "raid-quality" gear. Never.

The Radiance era (nuff said, even though I liked Radiance):
To get the full Watcher set, you had to beat the Watcher. No tiers - no options. One fight.
You also had to wait in line to get your piece.
That's pretty exclusive to me.

DN gear - granted probably not more desirable than Watcher gear for most, but if you wanted it, you had to beat the raid and you also had to wait your turn. There was also some top-of-the line non-armor stuff to be had. But you had to beat the boss first.

BG they made more accessible in that you didn't need the full DN set to meet the Radiance req because you could run 3 and 6-mans for the purple gear. But guess what? You still had to beat the raid and also wait your turn to get the "real" armor.

OD was the bridge. T1 or T2, but people still whined about T2 players getting better armor. Most of the content was pretty accessible on T2 if you didn't care about the challenge.

So now we have the era of Isengard and practically equal ops for all. Draigoch is the ultimate in accessibility, giving armor that is more than adequate for anything. Skraids take less than 30mins with even a weak group and also give access to some of the better jewelry around. Not to mention, you can run non-raid content for 4 pieces of a raid set. The new 3-piece jewelry sets are also readily accessible to anyone willing and able to join a group every so often. This is not even to mention that crafted jewelry is perfectly adequate for any class going into Orthanc. We also have two of the easiest 6-man instances to ever grace the game. They practically hand-out Second Age Symbols at the log-in screen. I can go on if you like...

So I'm sorry, I don't buy any disparity argument for a second. If the people you know are simply tired of grinding things, I can appreciate that. I can understand it. I used to carry 6 raid ready toons, but I'm just tired of keeping that many up. It's no harder than it used to be, I just don't want to make the time to do it. That's MMO life.

The only way it's different than it used to be is that it's easier to get more with fewer achievements of any significant challenge. That's a fact.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Why aren't you content with T1 raids then? From this paragraph you basically say you want to do T1 raids, so you don't have to raid with the "kind of" (ridiculous generalization) people who run T2 content. I expect this kind of statement is the entire reason they made T1 raids.

The whole gear/content explanation is just a stupid excuse* for the fact that you want be carried through the toughest content (T2) so that you can feel good about yourself, without being scolded for playing badly, and without having to put up with some testosterone fueled kids.

I don't need to be carried through jack, and I don't play badly. You're clearly not understanding my position. You've got the "testosterone-fueled kids" thing down, though.

I don't want to not be given difficult content just because poor Frisco and co. (who claim they would happily do less difficult raids if they were around, cough T1 cough) had unrealistic expectations that 11 other people wouldn't mind failing lots, and ended up having a few people be rude to them when they tried to do tough content.

That's my point. You feel that it's your right to have difficult content that can only be done by a few groups, many of which are intolerable to a lot of players. I'm saying that having that level of difficulty is having a negative effect on the community. I can complete it, sure. It's not THAT hard, and it's just a video game. But they've made it so I don't want to complete it, due to the process I'd have to go through.

Also I have zero sympathy for someone who insults Combat Analysis in their opening post. Why don't you go out and write a happy-clappy plugin that encourages people to not epeen instead of instigating that my plugin is somehow the cause of your problems?

The plugin is a symptom of the problem. But it's also human nature, wanting to epeen. All I'm wanting is content that doesn't encourage groups to use plugins as a method of judgement. Just because I think your product is misused doesn't mean you have to get all teary-eyed over it.

Originally Posted by Southpa

I'll echo what Souku said. It's much less about gear than it is about teamwork and understanding the content. This is no different than it's ever been. The trash is less forgiving, but still I'm sure that plenty of people spent lots of time wiping on BG trash, some of the OD trash, etc... BG was less forgiving actually because there was no way to dial it down. It was what it was.

LOTRO has always been about gear AND teamwork, not sure why so many people are putting up straw men, insinuating that I'm say because gear is more important that teamwork isn't necessary at all. The point is, it as become MORE about gear than ever before.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the justification here when T1 offers much of the same rewards as T2 and T1 is a faceroll other than Saruman. If you aren't gear-centered as you claim, you shouldn't give a rip about the T2-only drops in the first place, right?

What gave you the impression that I didn't want to make my characters the best they can be? I'm only complaining about the route.

I think the "widening gap" you're perceiving is a result of the people you interact with as well as you being left behind. The gear grind is easier than ever before and what is available in 3 or 6-man content, as well as bartered gear, is plenty enough to allow you to complete the T2 challenges others have completed.

Nah, it's not easier than ever before. But regardless, that's not the point. It's that as fewer people are capable of completing T2 content, people who enjoy a challenge and the best items for their character are are funneled into fewer and fewer kinships or raid groups. Meaning fewer and fewer options for people. Either join 4 or 5 kins, likely filled with epeening teen boys talking about bacon, or be happy doing T1.

If anything, the gap you're seeing is the further refinement of the skill and awareness level that is needed to beat the hardest content. The way it should be.

I disagree. I don't think Turbine's goal should be to eventually design a raid that only the Germans can beat. We're not filtering out the cream of the crop for a top secret assignment. This isn't The Last Starfighter. This is about fun in a video game and community. There certainly is the option to make hardcore raiding exclusive to some, but I'm just curious if anyone else longs for days when content was more accessible, if easier (not T1 easy--we still spent weeks learning the Blind One or Thrang).

Obviously, the most vocal people on the forums are not going to agree, but the most vocal people on the forums are not exactly representative of the community as a whole. But if nobody says anything about it, Turbine won't even know people are thinking it. So I'm saying it.

Originally Posted by Frisco

That's my point. You feel that it's your right to have difficult content that can only be done by a few groups, many of which are intolerable to a lot of players. I'm saying that having that level of difficulty is having a negative effect on the community. I can complete it, sure. It's not THAT hard, and it's just a video game. But they've made it so I don't want to complete it, due to the process I'd have to go through.

What process? Learning the fights?
Did you complete all the OD challenges on level?
Did you complete all of BG on level?
If not, then I'm not sure you're in the position to be making these claims.

Name one time in the history of LotRO we had such easy access to such a wide variety of gear?

Your argument is in itself a non-starter. It's a rhetorical question. Skill > gear. Always. You seem to be unhappy with both, why are you pitting them against each other then?

My kin has gotten as many challenges as any other kin. I would wager that over 95% of what we're wearing that was gotten in Orthanc was looted from Kalbak's chests. We've gotten probably 20 First Age symbols from those chests as well.

I assume we can consider this boss accessible since tons of kins have done the Challenge. There is your accessibility. It's hardly even worth bothering with the F/F or Acid Wing if you can just farm Lightning. It's the ultimate in accessible and spawns the same loot.

Originally Posted by Frisco

The plugin is a symptom of the problem. But it's also human nature, wanting to epeen. All I'm wanting is content that doesn't encourage groups to use plugins as a method of judgement. Just because I think your product is misused doesn't mean you have to get all teary-eyed over it.

Maybe you need groups that don't consider plugins as a method of judgement? The content doesn't require it. Our kin got a little out of hand with the constant pushing of parses to chat so I kindly asked them all to cool it because it holds little context in uncontrolled environments. I think it's an awesome tool, but it needs context.

Originally Posted by Frisco

LOTRO has always been about gear AND teamwork, not sure why so many people are putting up straw men, insinuating that I'm say because gear is more important that teamwork isn't necessary at all. The point is, it as become MORE about gear than ever before.

And all this gear is more accessible than ever before. This cannot be disproven no matter how hard you try (refer to my previous post).

Originally Posted by Frisco

Nah, it's not easier than ever before. But regardless, that's not the point. It's that as fewer people are capable of completing T2 content, people who enjoy a challenge and the best items for their character are are funneled into fewer and fewer kinships or raid groups. Meaning fewer and fewer options for people. Either join 4 or 5 kins, likely filled with epeening teen boys talking about bacon, or be happy doing T1.

Heh, the average age of the "better" raiders in my kin is over 30. Some are over 40 and some are even older.
We appreciate conversations centered around bacon, sure. But regardless, that's not the point.
But even so, you are trying to argue 2 different things here. Is it the gear "grind" or the content that is making you so sore? As I said, Lightning wing is easy enough that tons of kins have done it. It drops the same loot as Acid and F/F, so there you have access to the loot from 3 of the Wings. The drops from Shadow T2/challenge are pretty much a joke. There's a decent Agi cloak that I wear on a few occasions and there's maybe a piece or two a caster would use, but I haven't seen much else. No one's beaten Saruman T2 other than via exploit, so there's essentially no one walking around with that loot either.

Again, tell me your problem? That you don't have access to a fair Agi cloak and a couple near-sidegrade caster pieces LIKE 20 or so kins have? That's a pretty weak argument.

Originally Posted by Frisco

Obviously, the most vocal people on the forums are not going to agree, but the most vocal people on the forums are not exactly representative of the community as a whole. But if nobody says anything about it, Turbine won't even know people are thinking it. So I'm saying it.

I think all they have to do is read the progress thread to get an accurate representation of who's doing what.
There are also threads that already exist on the difficulty of the trash as well as T2 F/F and T2 Saruman balance issues. Frankly, I think you just want to stir the pot.

But to take the title of your post to task, there is no way to correlate gear v. skill. Nothing challenging in this game will allow an average player to win even if they were given the gift of being able to choose exactly what items they wanted available to equip. Skill will always trump the addition of some rare less-accessible drop from a raid boss. Always. Always has, always will. These pieces are what remain of "bragging rights". Tokens of accomplishment - and little more. You want them? You already have access to the gear you need to get them. How about the skill?

Originally Posted by Frisco

Nah, it's not easier than ever before. But regardless, that's not the point. It's that as fewer people are capable of completing T2 content, people who enjoy a challenge and the best items for their character are are funneled into fewer and fewer kinships or raid groups. Meaning fewer and fewer options for people. Either join 4 or 5 kins, likely filled with epeening teen boys talking about bacon, or be happy doing T1.

When I see a statement on these forums like your last sentence, I'm always compelled to mention that the raiding kin that I've been in for the last year - a kin that, at least since OD, has been among the first (and sometimes the first) to complete T2 Challenges - is filled entirely with adults (both men and women), all of whom have jobs, families, advanced degrees (or are attending college/university), and real lives outside of LOTRO. My prior raiding kin was largely filled with the same type of people.

Perhaps I'm lucky or my experience is unique, but I don't think so. Most of the posts I see from members of other prominent raiding kins indicate that those people are also full-fledged, educated, intelligent, and reasonable adults who just happen to enjoy a certain aspect of the game and aren't at all "epeening teen boys [who talk] about bacon".

As far as I can tell, beating the raids isn't any more difficult than before. I do think that the mechanics have become more advanced, but I also think that runs in parallel with the players becoming more advanced/skillful themselves. I didn't start playing until a few months before Moria, but how many "non-hardcore raiding kins" (for lack of a better term) were clearing the Rift four months after it had been out? Or Helegrod? How about the Watcher? DN? BG? OD?

In my experience, only the Turtle and Draigoch have been designed so that nearly anyone can beat them on-level, and beat them fairly soon after their release. Almost every other raid this game has seen (save maybe DN) has been of a level of difficulty that really did limit the number of groups capable of beating it to a select few, at least early on in the life of the raid. Some even became more difficult as time went on - the Watcher 2.0 revamp actually ended up lessening the number of groups that could beat the Watcher, including some allegedly "hardcore raiding kins".

In short, I don't think that the raids are being designed to keep out any more people than they were before - in fact, as Evendale mentioned, with the addition of T1 the raids are actually more accessible. I also don't think that raiding kins are filled with the type of people that you think they're filled with, but I do think that you definitely have some preconceived notions about the types of people that are in kins beating T2/T2C modes that you need to let go of if you want to join one of those kins and beat the toughest content. Either that or you're truly unlucky and the raiding kins on your server are abnormal and really are full of the stereotypes that people like to ascribe to raiding kins.

Originally Posted by Southpa

stuff

Wow. Just wow.

I'm not sure I've been misunderstood and misrepresented so grossly in my entire time on the forum. And the work it must have taken!

I think it's great that you are in a respectful (ignoring the above), mature kinship. There are so few around, and I'm sure you know how lucky you are. But you're clearly in your own little world if you think I was complaining that I couldn't farm T2C Lightning enough for my tastes.

The process I was referring to, which I thought was pretty clear, is that people are forced into fewer and fewer options when it comes to raiding. You may be lucky in that you're in a good kinship, but Bob over there happens to be one of the better players in his kinship, but the content is such that they can't complete it. Bob can either suck it up and not make his character the best it can be, or he can ditch his kinship and join a raiding kin, which may or may not be people he'd play with otherwise.

With fewer and fewer kins capable of beating the hardest content, the options for Bob can be wholly unattractive, depending on his server and his tolerance for bacon chatter (nothing against bacon--I wrap my bacon in bacon). Bob's kin can be any kin that is on the edge of beating content. Maybe his current kin was good enough to beat some stuff, but with the next bump in difficulty, they were unable. I'm only advocating a bump down, for inclusion, not a raid filled with Pie bosses who bleed sprinkles and heal you as you damage it.

Originally Posted by Lestache

When I see a statement on these forums like your last sentence, I'm always compelled to mention that the raiding kin that I've been in for the last year - a kin that, at least since OD, has been among the first (and sometimes the first) to complete T2 Challenges - is filled entirely with adults (both men and women), all of whom have jobs, families, advanced degrees (or are attending college/university), and real lives outside of LOTRO. My prior raiding kin was largely filled with the same type of people.
...

I also don't think that raiding kins are filled with the type of people that you think they're filled with, but I do think that you definitely have some preconceived notions about the types of people that are in kins beating T2/T2C modes that you need to let go of if you want to join one of those kins and beat the toughest content. Either that or you're truly unlucky and the raiding kins on your server are abnormal and really are full of the stereotypes that people like to ascribe to raiding kins.

1. Squirt in some lemon juice while you're salting my wounds.

2. Hmm...I've thought about this. Do I just really have a low tolerance? Maybe. Probably. Definitely. Most of the kins I've written off in my head because of a few "red flag" members I've come across over the years. Are all raiders bad people? Of course not. Probably not more than a small minority. But they seem to be spread out evenly--a few in every kin. In the old days on Brandywine, you could at least count on them being clumped up, since there were enough kins completing endgame content that you couldn't be a complete tool and expect to be retained based on skill alone, or the fact that you showed up regularly and on time.

Now, there is likely a kin out there that I would love to be a part of. I just haven't found it yet. But my point remains that it seems like good players with a desire for difficult endgame content are getting filtered into fewer and fewer capable kins. And that's making the community very segregated. I don't feel like there's a place for me in LOTRO, and that's the root of my issue--that this may be a path which, if continued upon, will affect more and more people.

Originally Posted by Frisco

The removal of stat caps and the ever-widening gap between 1st and 2nd age weapons has given birth to a very gear-centered community that I'm starting to feel doesn't exemplify the Middle Earth vibe I once loved.

Teamwork and communication have been trumped by DPS races and CombatAnalysis.

Does anyone think this is something that will ebb and flow, and Turbine will overcorrect, or should we expect that the gap to widen?

FAs provide a very marginal boost in either Heals or DPS. Raid acceptable gear is easily accessible. Needless to say, I don't agree.

When ToO was launched even T1 was difficult, but most kins got it fast. T2 is another matter, not all kins have finished all wings+saruman (even without CM).

That level of difficulty made all or most kins very strict about the people to bring in the ToO T2 raids, some requirements are exaggerated and will be tuned, but it's a normal reaction.

I know it is frustrating not been able to do end-game content, but it will settle down.

For example, lightning T2 is becoming easier and not all players need end-game top gear to do it. Pug groups are finishing lightning wing T2.

Skill and experience in raids are still more important then gear (know all your class skills, traits, how to play in groups, awareness of the mechanics and environment, initiative, etc).

Frisco,

To respond to your original question...

Yes, the gap will continue in my opinion.

I can't think of a single way Turbine can make more money without widening it.

Stat removals allowed for larger morale pools, but morale pots only increased linearly with level. So in order to make up the difference, purchase turbine morale pots! That was the beginning of the end in my opinion.

I think right now it's exactly as it should be.

Gear gives you the potential to do damage, but you still need the skill to use it.
If you wanna get good, you will always have to beat the encounters, gather experience etc. and gear comes along with that.
so in my opinion it's still the best to work on your char to learn how to use him and while doing that you'll get the gear to improve as well. After all most people spend time to get their gear, so why shouldn't there be a difference between a char that was played a lot and a random alt?

I think it's a good thing and can motivate someone to work on his chars and not just have them without being able to use their true potential because you don't know how.

One sentiment I've seen expressed in this thread is that it is more time-consuming (i.e., grindy) to gear up toons than it once was, although I don't that it's necessarily any more difficult.

There was a time in Moria when one could get an alt to level 60 (the cap at the time), and have kinmates take two hours to run you through all 6 Moria instances and, voila - you had the gear needed to go do the Watcher. You could even craft yourself some decent jewelry that wasn't too far behind what was available in the instances. Get those virtues to 10 and you were ready to go.

Even as recently as OD it wasn't too bad to get an alt raid-ready - it didn't take me much time at all to get 3 or 4 alts to the point that they could comfortably step into OD and not feel like they were a liability.

Lately though, it just seems like too much effort. It takes significantly more time to do enough runs of whatever to get at least 4 Draigoch pieces than it used to to get Moria or Mirkwood gear, virtues are up to 14 (a good thing in general, though, as they couldn't stay at 10 forever), and I've just completely checked out of the LI grind on alts - even alts that I used to keep at top raiding level gear-wise. Scrolls of Empowerment get a little more costly with each expansion, and I don't feel like taking the time to meld the best relics for an extra 20 morale or whatever.

So I really don't think that it's more difficult - the content behind which the gear is gated isn't any harder; I just think that the time investment per character keeps creeping upwards with each new expansion/content update. (Although yes, one doesn't need the best gear to be successful in the raid, even on T2, but it certainly helps.)

Originally Posted by Frisco

Wow. Just wow.

I'm not sure I've been misunderstood and misrepresented so grossly in my entire time on the forum. And the work it must have taken!

Your quotes, fella, not mine. And you make it easy.
Go ahead and dodge the questions, you'll stay more credible that way.

Originally Posted by Frisco

I think it's great that you are in a respectful (ignoring the above), mature kinship. There are so few around, and I'm sure you know how lucky you are. But you're clearly in your own little world if you think I was complaining that I couldn't farm T2C Lightning enough for my tastes.

You have a post where you present a belief that gear has somehow started to trump teamwork and skill (actually, knowledge is even greater than skill, but your argument is already too muddled to add another variable). You also complain that you can't do all the content. Logical conclusion here, dude: you think better gear makes harder content attainable. Don't blame me for drawing logical conclusions from the argument you present. Try presenting a more coherent argument next time.

Originally Posted by Frisco

The process I was referring to, which I thought was pretty clear, is that people are forced into fewer and fewer options when it comes to raiding. You may be lucky in that you're in a good kinship, but Bob over there happens to be one of the better players in his kinship, but the content is such that they can't complete it. Bob can either suck it up and not make his character the best it can be, or he can ditch his kinship and join a raiding kin, which may or may not be people he'd play with otherwise.

And I (and others) have already told you that you don't need a decked-out toon to accomplish what the better kins have accomplished. If Bob's kin isn't allowing him to get what he wants out of the game, then Bob needs to move on. Does he place greater value in his kinship or in his personal desire to beat the tough stuff? This is not even to consider where Great Bob, big fish in small pond, will reside among a new group of people. Maybe he's not all that, eh? Who knows... Bob won't unless he quits being such a malcontent and does something for himself.

Originally Posted by Frisco

With fewer and fewer kins capable of beating the hardest content, the options for Bob can be wholly unattractive, depending on his server and his tolerance for bacon chatter (nothing against bacon--I wrap my bacon in bacon). Bob's kin can be any kin that is on the edge of beating content. Maybe his current kin was good enough to beat some stuff, but with the next bump in difficulty, they were unable. I'm only advocating a bump down, for inclusion, not a raid filled with Pie bosses who bleed sprinkles and heal you as you damage it.

It's not harder for all, that's what you don't seem to grasp. Our pace in OD was slower than it has been in Orthanc. We also had the same regular turnover among our regular raiders that we have from every raid to the next. Also, when no kins can beat one challenge and can't beat another T2 at all, there are larger issues at work (which have been acknowledged).

If you will, dig up the old OD progression thread for comparison and see what hard is. Also realize that between OD and Orthanc, quite a few (more than ever) prominent raiding kins dissolved.

Man, you really want me to be saying something other than what I'm saying. Will nobody argue about whatever it is you're arguing about?

You also complain that you can't do all the content.

Now you're just making things up, rather than somehow misinterpreting my words.

Poor Bob. One week, his kin is capable of completing content, the next, they aren't. Guess Bob should just pack it in! Glad we're fostering such a great community.

And thanks for the negative rep. Stay classy.

I didn't give you negative rep, for the record.

I'm just trying to decipher your complaint, that's all. I don't get it. Granted, it has morphed over the course of this thread.

Like I said, don't make a thread with gear vs skill in the title and people won't make that comparison, right?
Read your first post. See how I drew that line?

I haven't done much in raiding. However, I have seen that gap between people hitting 75 and those with gear is huge. The best crafted and reward gear is at best 50% the stats of the raid gear. I have been able to get my hunter decently geared but it has taken me months to do it. Dragon armour will take easily 50 or more duo/6 man skirmishes to get 1 piece. If you can get an isen 3-man together its down to 10 runs. Less if you can get into a foundry, but even t1 a hunter will get torn up by the tactical mitigation without at least lvl 8+ virtues and the right ones. That in and of itself is not obvious to most leveling players so they don't work too much on virtues just gear and leveling. So most players reaching cap with their first char are so pathetically equipped that they can't handle the content needed to improve themselves till they spend weeks correcting the mistakes in leveling they didn't know they were making. Sure its easy on my second char I know what to focus on, but for that first char its really painful if you don't have people to help you avoid those mistakes. Before ROI you had to be massively incompetent and brain dead to build your char wrong, after its the natural state upon reaching cap unless you really know the game. Worse is it isn't until lvl 70 and you start to use the new reward gear that you see where your char is deficient and figure out what you need to do with virtues to fix it. Level cap is really, in my opinion, where leveling your character really starts now that wasn't the case before. I firmly believe that most newly leveled first characters for people will not even be able to survive skill or no skill even the t1 3-man isens.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

we were the first Kinship on our Server killing Shadow T2, Shadow CM, Fire&Frost T2, Acid HM (regular withour Burgstacking)...

F&F youre Kin definitely not the first Kin on Maiar that Kill the two Giants. Please stop lying Mel....

I just wanna speak up for how awesome Combat Analysis is. It's the only real tool we have at all on lotro to objectively judge how we're performing as players (and as a raid) and has BY FAR led to the greatest amount of improvement in our kin's performance as DPSers, tanks and healers due to the extremely convenient organization and partitioning of data.

Thank you very much Evendale.

Ability > Gear enhances that ability & CA pwns (bring back the option to group parse!)

It seems a lots of players got mistaken thinking about "the old days". Rift, Helegrod, DN, BG... they all were one tier, one raid, one fight. Some people may have used to think they are great raiders because they were able to do those raids. OD and ToO introduced a new tier and you got 2 very different fights depending on the tier - one easier, very casual, pug friendly and one that is the hardest thing ever made in LOTRO. No one ever said T2 will be easy, forgiving and pug-friendly. And I like the way it is now better. As others have pointed out - it has never been easier to get the "raid-gear"

About the Skill vs Gear nonesence.... my kin is raiding regularly, almost every night - 2-3 Dragon runs and 1-2 ToO runs weekly. We go thru t1 of ToO as a breez, but we still struggle to complete any t2 wing. We are all very well geared, full sets, best jewelries, some of the guys bought 1st agers and got lucky with up to 5 majors... and still we fail at t2... why? Lack ot good tactics, knowledge, some personal mistakes and not fully understanding how is your class supposed to work for the best of the group, etc. Nothing about the gear. It is all about "skill". Reminds me of my first successful Watcher run back in the years... I was in a very casual kin back there and we were attempting to do the Watcher without any success past phase 2... and then I tryed it with a pug group where the leader were using voice commands that were so simple and easy to follow that there was no room for mistake - my first successful Watcher was in a pug group. Anyway... gear cant save you in ToO t2 if people use AoE on target that is mezzed, or any other ocation when personal mistakes/lack of understanding is involved. Gear can only make it easier/faster when you can beat the instance/raid anyway.
Remember, no one used ToO sets or Great River jewels when he was beating the ToO for the first time...

I'd just like to add that, while epeening is fun, using CA is the best way to get better at dps. After all, how can you get better if you don't know you have to improve, or even tell when you have improved.

(Bring back group parse too)

Lets have a simple thought experiment: Two players that have exactly the same skill with their class and exactly the same stats except about 2000 offense rating that results in=
Player A does 1000 DPS
Player B does 1100 DPS, 10% more

But Player A has more experience with/is more skilled at the current instance. Which leads to him acquiring the next target faster, positioning himself faster, starts to DPS faster by just ONE second than player B. Player B will need to DPS for 10 whole seconds just to equalize the damage player A has done at this point.

You can substitute A and B with tanks of different mitigations, or healers, whatever. Bottom line is: "skill"/experience can always give an edge over raw power - within reasonable margins. Thats why some groups get purple-clad alts through Orthanc T2 while other exquisitely teal geared groups fail at doing T1.