Thread: Ebbing Ire on a DPS rune

I wanted to pull this the "65 FA Rune vs 75 SA Rune" thread because I though it is worth discussing and didn't want to completely derail that thread.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

Yep, both are true. I'm very blessed (and spoiled) to have some amazing tanks in kin that are absolutely on top of their game (both Wardens and Guards). It's been a while since I've run with PuG tanks, but yes, I could imagine you needing to Ebb every minute or so if you're a DPS machine. However, that does not mean that I do not use Ebbing Ire when the time calls for it (ie zerging Acid T2C in less then 1min 40 sec, or burning down the first Giant in Fire/Frost). Having the legacy on your DPS rune is a huge waste of points that could be put towards something that's going to increase your DPS.

I'm not advocating to not use Ebbing Ire in the least, but I would never have it on my pure DPS rune. I have a separate runes for different functions. I have my DPS rune, tanking rune, and a pure swap rune. Legacies that I use, but are not on my DPS rune:

-Horn Stun Duration (swap rune)
-Ebbing Ire Cool Down (swap rune)
-Adamant/Invincible Duration (tanking rune)
-Fight On Duration (swap rune)
-Bracing Attack Heal (tanking rune)
-Heroics Heal Chance (swap rune)
-Dire Need Cool Down (swap rune, but I honestly don't swap for this skill typically)

We're lucky to have so many useful legacies, but in order to maximize the benefit, some swapping of runes is required. Just like I have a swap sword for:

-Sudden Defence Cool Down
-Sprint Duration
-Fear Nothing Cool Down

The more I think about it though, the more swapping for Ebbing Ire seems useless to me unless you're running with a PuG or an undergeared/played tank. In our T2 Orthanc runs, I can't really think of a time that I would need to Ebb twice in 1 minute, let alone twice in one fight. One Ebb is more then enough to secure the tank's aggro lead for the rest of the fight (assuming of course you built up enough aggro to make it a significant threat transfer, and of course, your tanks are good).

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!

Edit: If you're running with a Guard that you suspect you're going to pull aggro from, make sure they use Engage before you Ebb. Many times newer Guards don't realize the power of the Engage skill (it essentially copies the raw threat of the player highest on the mob's aggro table). If you pull aggro, just turn the mob around from the rest of the group, instruct your Guard to use Engage, and then Ebb afterwards. That will provide a significant aggro lead for the tank. If you end up Ebbing right before they Engage, you'll find the results to be less then satisfying.

Obviously I respectfully disagree with Rothdire and feel that raiding champs should not only have Ebb on their DPS rune but should use it as a tool to increase the overall DPS of the group. As Rothdire describes in his edit, Engage before Ebb is 100% correct however that mechanic can be used as great proactive tool to manage aggro and not a reactive one to fix mistakes. With both Engage and Ebb on a 60 sec CD, a guard in Threat, and two champs dumping, you can lock down pretty much any boss and let your hunters and RK go town. Using it as a reactive tool because you just pulled aggro isn't going to help the group much if you do it in FF right before a clap.

If you haven't read it, there is a really good thread in the Guard forum on Threat vs Block stances
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...76#post6096076

I agree, using ebbing on your main rune is a VERY good idea no matter under what circumstances (lets face it, there's not that many good legs for a rune anyway). It's not simply about the champ pulling threat but about maximising dps of the GROUP. Lets work with the following image;

Champ has ebbing ire maxed on his rune as well as At the Ready, making the actual cd for ebbing 20-30 secs depending on the situation.
Now, with this the tank will have (literally) enough aggro for everyone to go absolutely bananas on dps. For a lot of people this is it, the main purpose of ebbing. Lets go a step further though. If the tank gets more aggro due to ires, he can then trait for more mitigations thus reducing the amount of heals needed to keep him topped up. Now, since the healers don't need to pour that much heals into the tank they in turn can conserve power for when it is needed as well as use the support skills they have to further increase the effectveness of the entire group. So the more ire the champs put out the better.
With this being said the sad truth is that most people play reactively (Oh ####, what do i do now?) while the most effective and successful groups raid proactively (I'll use this to prevent that), playing reactively is a lot easier since you only need to react to what is happening, playing proactively is a lot harder in that you need to percieve possible threats to the situation before they happen (requires a lot of class knowledge as well as knowledge about the encounter).

I would go as far as saying that in terms of usefulness ire is better than acuity (there's not many places where sustained dps is really needed atm, unfortunately), true you put out more dps with acuity in an aoe situation but ire is useful in all situations and will benefit the entire group. So in the end I guess it comes down to wether or not you group up or not. True it might not be "necessary" as such but used proactively it helps avoid a lot of nasty situations (kalbak turning, giant turning, any other boss turning at a time where it unleash a 20k frontal aoe on squishies).


Ebbing ire - for a longer life

I might be missing what people are arguing about, but from what i gather, it's about whether or not to put the ebbing ire trait on your dps rune or your swap rune.

The only downside for having it on a swap rune is the 1 second of wait time to swap weapons that you could potentially be dps'ing.

Other than that, I don't see an advantage to having it directly on a dps rune. It still has the same effect as long as you hit ebbing ire with the swap rune.

Or am i missing part of the argument?

I guess my question is, "Why would you want Ebbing Ire CD on your DPS rune?" Why not just use a swap rune? You get the full benefit of the maxed out legacy without sacrificing anything on your DPS rune. You're not really adding any time into the situation, you can swap your rune out during an animation delay before you even hit Ebbing Ire.

Like I said in the quoted text though, the more I think about it, the more I think using a 1 minute Ebbing Ire isn't even needed if everyone (especially the tank) is on top of their game. This is obviously different if you're not playing with a top tier tank.

Example: In Acid T2C, we use the kill it in less then 1:40 strat. To do this requires massive amounts of DPS from the raid. Our DPS'ers are frequently parsing 3000+ DPS sustained throughout that whole fight. Our tank is still able to hold aggro with just one Ebb from myself, or two if there is another Champ in the group (frequently there is). I typically Ebb after about 30 seconds or so, after the first OB is done. A second Ebb from myself isn't needed for the tank to hold aggro. Believe me, no one is holding back on DPS, it's full bore.

I have to disagree about there not being many good legacies on a rune as well. I love every legacy that I have on my DPS rune, each one increases my DPS potential. I couldn't even imagine giving up Battle Acuity Duration for Ebbing Ire CD. Battle Acuity is one of the best legacies on the rune. +25% damage to all AoE skills, able to be kept up the entire fight with the legacy (plus +900 crit to AoE skills if you swap in 3 pieces of the AoE armour set)? Yes please! I disagree completely that there aren't many situations where that's useful. Our kin uses a strat in most wings that utilizes AoE damage to its fullest (Warriors in F&F, Twisted Orcs in Acid, Uruk-Hai in Shadow, all the clone Sarumans). Even in fights where there is no AoE DPS, Battle Acuity is still a great skill. It increases the DPS of Blade Wall, my go to PIP builder right after Wild Attack. As the fight starts, hit Battle Acuity immediately. No real loss of fervour since you hit it as you run in, but now you have +25 seconds of +25% DPS on Blade Wall. Win win.

Originally Posted by Fralin

Champ has ebbing ire maxed on his rune as well as At the Ready, making the actual cd for ebbing 20-30 secs depending on the situation.
Now, with this the tank will have (literally) enough aggro for everyone to go absolutely bananas on dps.

Say what? You trait a blue for DPS situations? That's a massive loss in DPS not only from the trait choice, but from wasting 4 fervour every 30 seconds when it's just not needed, at all.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!

I still stand by that. If your tanks can handle it without more Ebbs, why would you? You're just lowering your DPS. If they need the Ebbs to keep an aggro lead, by all means, Ebb away. You just have to know your situation and tank, and react accordingly.

And yes, proactive Ebbs are better then reactive ones, no question about that. But even then, I find that 2 in a fight simply isn't needed with our tanks.

Tough question as champs and wardens are my favourite classes, and wardens have really been through the ringer the past year.

Put the ebbing ire leg on your DPS rune. A lot of the most recent instances are DPS races, I know, but it's going to help your tank, therefore your whole group, therefore your success, if everyone is actively helping to manage aggro - the tank can't do it all, especially as DPS rises (first age weapons, no stat caps, etc. etc.)

You're doing no DPS when you're dead/the raid wipes.

I'm pretty sure guards would agree with me on this one - threat is becoming more of a balancing act for tanks, especially since so many group members seem to feel more free to ignore it these days.

Originally Posted by Chanah

Put the ebbing ire leg on your DPS rune. A lot of the most recent instances are DPS races, I know, but it's going to help your tank, therefore your whole group, therefore your success, if everyone is actively helping to manage aggro - the tank can't do it all, especially as DPS rises (first age weapons, no stat caps, etc. etc.)

The question still remains though, why wouldn't you put the legacy on a swap rune instead of your DPS rune? I don't get it. If people don't want to take the time to swap, that's fine. But the fact remains that if you want to maximize what you're doing, you're going to have to swap. No two ways about it.

Originally Posted by Chanah

You're doing no DPS when you're dead/the raid wipes.

Correct, I'm not advocating to never Ebb, not in the least. I'm just saying that every situation is different. Why would someone feel the need to Ebb 3 times in a fight if only 1 is needed for the tank to hold aggro? It's just a waste of fervour/time that could have been put towards another couple Brutal Strikes

Which brings me back to:

Originally Posted by Rothdire

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!