Thread: Ebbing Ire on a DPS rune

I wanted to pull this the "65 FA Rune vs 75 SA Rune" thread because I though it is worth discussing and didn't want to completely derail that thread.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

Yep, both are true. I'm very blessed (and spoiled) to have some amazing tanks in kin that are absolutely on top of their game (both Wardens and Guards). It's been a while since I've run with PuG tanks, but yes, I could imagine you needing to Ebb every minute or so if you're a DPS machine. However, that does not mean that I do not use Ebbing Ire when the time calls for it (ie zerging Acid T2C in less then 1min 40 sec, or burning down the first Giant in Fire/Frost). Having the legacy on your DPS rune is a huge waste of points that could be put towards something that's going to increase your DPS.

I'm not advocating to not use Ebbing Ire in the least, but I would never have it on my pure DPS rune. I have a separate runes for different functions. I have my DPS rune, tanking rune, and a pure swap rune. Legacies that I use, but are not on my DPS rune:

-Horn Stun Duration (swap rune)
-Ebbing Ire Cool Down (swap rune)
-Adamant/Invincible Duration (tanking rune)
-Fight On Duration (swap rune)
-Bracing Attack Heal (tanking rune)
-Heroics Heal Chance (swap rune)
-Dire Need Cool Down (swap rune, but I honestly don't swap for this skill typically)

We're lucky to have so many useful legacies, but in order to maximize the benefit, some swapping of runes is required. Just like I have a swap sword for:

-Sudden Defence Cool Down
-Sprint Duration
-Fear Nothing Cool Down

The more I think about it though, the more swapping for Ebbing Ire seems useless to me unless you're running with a PuG or an undergeared/played tank. In our T2 Orthanc runs, I can't really think of a time that I would need to Ebb twice in 1 minute, let alone twice in one fight. One Ebb is more then enough to secure the tank's aggro lead for the rest of the fight (assuming of course you built up enough aggro to make it a significant threat transfer, and of course, your tanks are good).

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!

Edit: If you're running with a Guard that you suspect you're going to pull aggro from, make sure they use Engage before you Ebb. Many times newer Guards don't realize the power of the Engage skill (it essentially copies the raw threat of the player highest on the mob's aggro table). If you pull aggro, just turn the mob around from the rest of the group, instruct your Guard to use Engage, and then Ebb afterwards. That will provide a significant aggro lead for the tank. If you end up Ebbing right before they Engage, you'll find the results to be less then satisfying.

Obviously I respectfully disagree with Rothdire and feel that raiding champs should not only have Ebb on their DPS rune but should use it as a tool to increase the overall DPS of the group. As Rothdire describes in his edit, Engage before Ebb is 100% correct however that mechanic can be used as great proactive tool to manage aggro and not a reactive one to fix mistakes. With both Engage and Ebb on a 60 sec CD, a guard in Threat, and two champs dumping, you can lock down pretty much any boss and let your hunters and RK go town. Using it as a reactive tool because you just pulled aggro isn't going to help the group much if you do it in FF right before a clap.

If you haven't read it, there is a really good thread in the Guard forum on Threat vs Block stances
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...76#post6096076

I agree, using ebbing on your main rune is a VERY good idea no matter under what circumstances (lets face it, there's not that many good legs for a rune anyway). It's not simply about the champ pulling threat but about maximising dps of the GROUP. Lets work with the following image;

Champ has ebbing ire maxed on his rune as well as At the Ready, making the actual cd for ebbing 20-30 secs depending on the situation.
Now, with this the tank will have (literally) enough aggro for everyone to go absolutely bananas on dps. For a lot of people this is it, the main purpose of ebbing. Lets go a step further though. If the tank gets more aggro due to ires, he can then trait for more mitigations thus reducing the amount of heals needed to keep him topped up. Now, since the healers don't need to pour that much heals into the tank they in turn can conserve power for when it is needed as well as use the support skills they have to further increase the effectveness of the entire group. So the more ire the champs put out the better.
With this being said the sad truth is that most people play reactively (Oh ####, what do i do now?) while the most effective and successful groups raid proactively (I'll use this to prevent that), playing reactively is a lot easier since you only need to react to what is happening, playing proactively is a lot harder in that you need to percieve possible threats to the situation before they happen (requires a lot of class knowledge as well as knowledge about the encounter).

I would go as far as saying that in terms of usefulness ire is better than acuity (there's not many places where sustained dps is really needed atm, unfortunately), true you put out more dps with acuity in an aoe situation but ire is useful in all situations and will benefit the entire group. So in the end I guess it comes down to wether or not you group up or not. True it might not be "necessary" as such but used proactively it helps avoid a lot of nasty situations (kalbak turning, giant turning, any other boss turning at a time where it unleash a 20k frontal aoe on squishies).


Ebbing ire - for a longer life

I might be missing what people are arguing about, but from what i gather, it's about whether or not to put the ebbing ire trait on your dps rune or your swap rune.

The only downside for having it on a swap rune is the 1 second of wait time to swap weapons that you could potentially be dps'ing.

Other than that, I don't see an advantage to having it directly on a dps rune. It still has the same effect as long as you hit ebbing ire with the swap rune.

Or am i missing part of the argument?

I guess my question is, "Why would you want Ebbing Ire CD on your DPS rune?" Why not just use a swap rune? You get the full benefit of the maxed out legacy without sacrificing anything on your DPS rune. You're not really adding any time into the situation, you can swap your rune out during an animation delay before you even hit Ebbing Ire.

Like I said in the quoted text though, the more I think about it, the more I think using a 1 minute Ebbing Ire isn't even needed if everyone (especially the tank) is on top of their game. This is obviously different if you're not playing with a top tier tank.

Example: In Acid T2C, we use the kill it in less then 1:40 strat. To do this requires massive amounts of DPS from the raid. Our DPS'ers are frequently parsing 3000+ DPS sustained throughout that whole fight. Our tank is still able to hold aggro with just one Ebb from myself, or two if there is another Champ in the group (frequently there is). I typically Ebb after about 30 seconds or so, after the first OB is done. A second Ebb from myself isn't needed for the tank to hold aggro. Believe me, no one is holding back on DPS, it's full bore.

I have to disagree about there not being many good legacies on a rune as well. I love every legacy that I have on my DPS rune, each one increases my DPS potential. I couldn't even imagine giving up Battle Acuity Duration for Ebbing Ire CD. Battle Acuity is one of the best legacies on the rune. +25% damage to all AoE skills, able to be kept up the entire fight with the legacy (plus +900 crit to AoE skills if you swap in 3 pieces of the AoE armour set)? Yes please! I disagree completely that there aren't many situations where that's useful. Our kin uses a strat in most wings that utilizes AoE damage to its fullest (Warriors in F&F, Twisted Orcs in Acid, Uruk-Hai in Shadow, all the clone Sarumans). Even in fights where there is no AoE DPS, Battle Acuity is still a great skill. It increases the DPS of Blade Wall, my go to PIP builder right after Wild Attack. As the fight starts, hit Battle Acuity immediately. No real loss of fervour since you hit it as you run in, but now you have +25 seconds of +25% DPS on Blade Wall. Win win.

Originally Posted by Fralin

Champ has ebbing ire maxed on his rune as well as At the Ready, making the actual cd for ebbing 20-30 secs depending on the situation.
Now, with this the tank will have (literally) enough aggro for everyone to go absolutely bananas on dps.

Say what? You trait a blue for DPS situations? That's a massive loss in DPS not only from the trait choice, but from wasting 4 fervour every 30 seconds when it's just not needed, at all.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!

I still stand by that. If your tanks can handle it without more Ebbs, why would you? You're just lowering your DPS. If they need the Ebbs to keep an aggro lead, by all means, Ebb away. You just have to know your situation and tank, and react accordingly.

And yes, proactive Ebbs are better then reactive ones, no question about that. But even then, I find that 2 in a fight simply isn't needed with our tanks.

Tough question as champs and wardens are my favourite classes, and wardens have really been through the ringer the past year.

Put the ebbing ire leg on your DPS rune. A lot of the most recent instances are DPS races, I know, but it's going to help your tank, therefore your whole group, therefore your success, if everyone is actively helping to manage aggro - the tank can't do it all, especially as DPS rises (first age weapons, no stat caps, etc. etc.)

You're doing no DPS when you're dead/the raid wipes.

I'm pretty sure guards would agree with me on this one - threat is becoming more of a balancing act for tanks, especially since so many group members seem to feel more free to ignore it these days.

Originally Posted by Chanah

Put the ebbing ire leg on your DPS rune. A lot of the most recent instances are DPS races, I know, but it's going to help your tank, therefore your whole group, therefore your success, if everyone is actively helping to manage aggro - the tank can't do it all, especially as DPS rises (first age weapons, no stat caps, etc. etc.)

The question still remains though, why wouldn't you put the legacy on a swap rune instead of your DPS rune? I don't get it. If people don't want to take the time to swap, that's fine. But the fact remains that if you want to maximize what you're doing, you're going to have to swap. No two ways about it.

Originally Posted by Chanah

You're doing no DPS when you're dead/the raid wipes.

Correct, I'm not advocating to never Ebb, not in the least. I'm just saying that every situation is different. Why would someone feel the need to Ebb 3 times in a fight if only 1 is needed for the tank to hold aggro? It's just a waste of fervour/time that could have been put towards another couple Brutal Strikes

Which brings me back to:

Originally Posted by Rothdire

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!

Based on 'know your group' and 'know people'. And a lot of pugging. Shockingly (to you), many people have one legendary weapon and one rune. That's it. The folks who post in the forum are a quite a lot more aware than the average LoTRO player (as a rule, there are certainly exceptions).

From the tanking side, and going into a raid: 'Can I borrow some food? I didn't bring any. What are scrolls? What are hope tokens?' I kid you not. We won't even mention the loremaster wearing level 45 quest gear and kitted out in jewellry meant for a melee class. Or the DPS'ing champ with 1100 vit, 600 might, 150 agi, and 500 will - what's that about? (Those two ought to trade places, seriously!)

In other words, I've pretty much come to expect the worst, and that instances and raids will not run smoothly. Now, if you never PUG, and only run with people you know, and they're competent, that's one thing. It just doesn't match with my experience.

I currently see two lines of discussion missing each other in this thread. On the one hand there is mostly Rothdire who simply claims that for the Ebbing Ire CD reduction legacy having it on a swap rune is as good as having it on your main rune. Which I am inclined to agree on.

And then he gets replies that seem to be written under the assumption that he had said that legacy is completely unnecessary. Which it is not. And which he never claimed.

Consolidate, people!

Originally Posted by Chanah

From the tanking side, and going into a raid: 'Can I borrow some food? I didn't bring any. What are scrolls? What are hope tokens?' I kid you not. We won't even mention the loremaster wearing level 45 quest gear and kitted out in jewellry meant for a melee class. Or the DPS'ing champ with 1100 vit, 600 might, 150 agi, and 500 will - what's that about? (Those two ought to trade places, seriously!)

In other words, I've pretty much come to expect the worst, and that instances and raids will not run smoothly. Now, if you never PUG, and only run with people you know, and they're competent, that's one thing. It just doesn't match with my experience.

We had a PUG captain in the watcher who didn't know that he could res... and a burglar in the Rift who didn't know what cc was ... sometimes the ### moments are the most memorable and enjoyable in retrospect

It's all great if you're playing with the best of best players with the best of best gear, but for the rest of us you occasionally have to ebb every time it's off CD and still get aggro at times...

I'm not complaining, I'm not in the top % of dps so don't expect everyone I play with to be in the top % of their class either. I adjust, they adjust, we get on with it, once we're having fun (and it's not a wipefest ) I'm happy

I can appreciate how certain raid groups operate to the maximum of each and every class doing their job perfectly and to the utmost, but doesn't that get boring...?

Originally Posted by KhelgarFK

It's all great if you're playing with the best of best players with the best of best gear, but for the rest of us you occasionally have to ebb every time it's off CD and still get aggro at times...

Holy mother. Did you and others not read the part where some of the posters said you can put the said Legacy in a "swap" Rune? Nobody said the said Legacy is not useful/

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Holy mother. Did you and others not read the part where some of the posters said you can put the said Legacy in a "swap" Rune? Nobody said the said Legacy is not useful/

I can read just fine. Can you? I do have the legacy on a swap rune. I find it very useful. I never said nor implied that anyone had said any different. I was putting my point in that some groups will need its use more than others, all depends on your group. If you raid with exceptional tanks every week (like Rothdire) you will obviously have less use for it than if you raid/group with tanks who may not have the best of best of gear or may have a little difficulty holding aggro.

tl;dr

If you only have to use ebbing ire once per encounter then you have no use for the legacy. On the other hand if you still pull aggro after using it then you do. Simples!

Originally Posted by KhelgarFK

If you only have to use ebbing ire once per encounter then you have no use for the legacy. On the other hand if you still pull aggro after using it then you do. Simples!

Pretty much sums it up i think. Suppose i can see the use of having it on a swap instead of main... but at heart i'm lazy so i'll probably keep my main dps one
I still hold that At the Ready is a great supplement in proactive raiding though, there's still enough slots to pack a decent red punch

I found that I need ebbing ire only when I either go full throttle before the tank has had a headstart or if its someone tanking not used to it, or somewhat lacking in threat gen (or needing longer to build up enough threat) like a captain.

In the case of a 'real tank' it usually is enough to use ebbing ire the moment the boss aggro switches to me.
Should it happen later on too, usually the tank uses a skill to grab aggro back and all is fine.
If its an off-tank, I have to use ebbing ire regularly, but that is rather rare, since usually there is a regular tank along, or I have to tank even

So since I am not able to steal aggro from a good guard on a constant basis, and rarely run with only an offtank, I only would place the legacy on a swap/tanking rune, to use for the rare occasions I really need ebbing ire more than once in a fight.
It probably is different for the better champs here, with first age weapons and a better or more aggressive/all-out skill rotation

I'm not sure why you'd actually need battle acuity on your rune... as raging blades has a short enough cd to keep battle acuity up 100% of the time anyways. And if you're aoeing, why is it off cd? :P

Originally Posted by Draykfyre

I'm not sure why you'd actually need battle acuity on your rune... as raging blades has a short enough cd to keep battle acuity up 100% of the time anyways. And if you're aoeing, why is it off cd? :P

Several reasons actually. One is the transition time between pulls. Having the Battle Acuity buff up for 25 seconds will typically allow me to finish one pull, and start the next one with it still active. I can start the pull with a Raging Blades and keep the buff up without ever having to actually use the Battle Acuity skill itself. It's fun to do a Foundry run and keep the Battle Acuity buff up for every single trash pull with only using the skill once (in between bosses that is).

Another reason is the example that I outlined earlier, in a ST fight, you can use Battle Acuity at the very start of the fight to give your Blade Wall an extra +25% damage. I DW while building fervour (swapping to 2h for Brutal), so Blade Wall is constantly in my ST rotation. You won't be using Raging Blades in a ST fight, so you just bought yourself an extra 10 seconds of more damage.

Another reason is just logistics. With Raging Blades being on a 10 second CD, and the unlegacied Battle Acuity only lasting 15 seconds, you only leave yourself a 5 second window to refresh the buff. What if Raging Blades is just about off CD, but you already have 5 fervour built up. You need to unleash that fervour with either a Blade Storm, Horn, or something similar rather then sitting on the fervour for a second or two waiting for Raging Blades to come off CD. Any time waiting is a loss in DPS. This way you don't have any downtime, you're still unleashing the AoE pain, and you've kept the Battle Acuity buff up the whole time Isn't it frustrating when you use Raging Blades, but the animation hasn't finished yet and the Battle Acuity buff runs out? If you have an immediate skill off CD, you can use it to force it through quickly, but that might not always be the case.

Are those enough reasons for you? :P









Back to the lecture at hand (sorry, Dre and Snoop Dogg Coachella set reminded me of that line...look, it's Tupac! :P), I think we can all agree that the Ebbing Ire legacy isn't useless. How much you have to use it depends strictly on who you're running with. If you need to use it every minute, use it every minute. If you only need to use it once per fight on massive DPS races, only use it once. If you never need to use it, don't use it!

Which once again brings me back to my original point:

Originally Posted by Rothdire

It's all situational though, know your group, know your tank, know your potential. Success will follow!

The fact still remains though that if you want to maximize what you're doing, you need to put the legacy on a swap rune. There is no legitimate argument that I've seen against swap runes with the exception of not wanting to do it for convenience and ease of play. If you don't want to swap for it, fine, no sweat off my back. But that doesn't mean it's the most efficient either. The OP was asking from a raiding Champs perspective. An actively raiding Champ should be striving to be a lean, mean, Orc shredding machine. My advice is for those wanting to get the most out of their swords.

Originally Posted by Fralin

I still hold that At the Ready is a great supplement in proactive raiding though, there's still enough slots to pack a decent red punch

And sorry, but I'm still unconvinced of that point :P In a pure DPS build, there simply isn't enough room for a blue trait. You should either be traiting 4R 3Y or 5R 2Y (if you're running CBR). You should never raid without Improved Rend (unless another Champ in the raid has it traited), it's a massive DPS increase for the entire raid. And I'm addicted to an instant 5 fervour from Battle Frenzy. I love to Horn->Battle Frenzy->Raging Blades. And how could you give up Stalwart Blade?

Other people have swop runes, I have the just in case rune with glory/ardour parry and evade/stun duration/extra damage on brutal strikes, extra healing on bracing attack, and a few other things. And I always trait tight grip because I always end up needing it if there isn't an LM in the crowd, and there usually isn't.

The just in case rune may be messy, but tanks can screw up as much as DPS, and 'can you?' for a few minutes sometimes makes all the difference. Hey, it's weird but it works.

Just saying that if you're like most of us, it doesn't hurt to be prepared, and you can usually count on several someones NOT being prepared.

Which can still be fun, as somebody said. There's kind of the ideal min-max rotation, legs, etc., and then there's the run with the burg who doesn't know what an FM is, much less provoke, or the tank who can't tank.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

The question still remains though, why wouldn't you put the legacy on a swap rune instead of your DPS rune? I don't get it. If people don't want to take the time to swap, that's fine. But the fact remains that if you want to maximize what you're doing, you're going to have to swap. No two ways about it.

This.

As agreed by Roth and I on the original thread:

1. Roth - Raider, hardcore kin, runs with well-geared skilled players he knows well. Wants to maximise DPS for the hardest content the game has ever seen. Ebbing and Bracing Heal on swap runes as it's the most effective way of doing it.

2. Me - Casual, occasional instance runner, small laid-back kin. Runs instances with RL friends or the occasional PUG for fun and gear upgrades. Ebbing and Bracing Heal on primary DPS rune as it's the easier way of doing it.

Isn't that all there is to this discussion?


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Draykfyre

I'm not sure why you'd actually need battle acuity on your rune... as raging blades has a short enough cd to keep battle acuity up 100% of the time anyways. And if you're aoeing, why is it off cd? :P

K, I'll bite. If you look closely at your hotbar you'll notice more than one AoE strike. You can easily build 5 fervour in less than 10secs and to do anything other than spend it immediately is wasting DPS. When the tank has the trash locked down and I'm really AoEing I personally prefer:

Battle-Actuity -> Rend -> Frenzy -> Raging -> Build Fervour -> BladeStorm -> Build -> Raging -> Build -> BladeStorm etc. Reapplying Rend from time-to-time. My preferred builders in this rotation are SS and traited BW.

With a high crit rating this rotation does fearsome AoE DPS and with the acuity legacy a you can get back around to raging before acuity wears off meaning always hitting with a 25% buff. If the tank doesn't have the mobs so under control then you're going to need to throw in Horn of Gondor as well, making the legacy even more useful at keeping acuity up as often as possible.

- AOE power cost
- Strikes line power cost
- Swift strike power cost
- Rend bleed pulses
- Ebbing Ire cooldown
- Might/Battle acuity (who really needs to increase AOE that much anymore, though?)

That is a DPS rune.


- Ardour/Glory ICPR
- Adamant/Invincible Duration
- Bracing Attack Heal
- (Glory) Hedge Armour rating mod
- Dire Need Cooldown
- Vitality/Whatever else you want

That is a tank rune.


- Bracing Attack Heal
- Rend Bleed Pulses
- Stun Duration – Champion Horn
- Increased Range for Hamstring
- Might/Whatever else you want
- Agility/Whatever else you want

That is a PvP rune.


With these three runes, you have pretty much everything you need. No need for swap runes, since if you really want to you can just swap to a different one of the three. The good thing is, they all work brilliantly without swapping anyway.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

And sorry, but I'm still unconvinced of that point :P In a pure DPS build, there simply isn't enough room for a blue trait. You should either be traiting 4R 3Y or 5R 2Y (if you're running CBR). You should never raid without Improved Rend (unless another Champ in the raid has it traited), it's a massive DPS increase for the entire raid. And I'm addicted to an instant 5 fervour from Battle Frenzy. I love to Horn->Battle Frenzy->Raging Blades. And how could you give up Stalwart Blade?

Luckily we're usually two champs so i don't need to bother with imprend. Which is the reason I use 6r 1b, get more pips than i can spend anyway (and yes, my dps is 2k+ in a raid). As for Stalwart blade... I 2h instead of dw

Originally Posted by Rapunzel666

In the case of a 'real tank' it usually is enough to use ebbing ire the moment the boss aggro switches to me.
Should it happen later on too, usually the tank uses a skill to grab aggro back and all is fine.
If its an off-tank, I have to use ebbing ire regularly, but that is rather rare, since usually there is a regular tank along, or I have to tank even

The problem would be if you're fighting one of those bosses that could potentially wipe you if he turns at the wrong time due to your aggro (F/F spawning lots of grims, Kalbak doing his AoE, Iorveth doing his AoE, etc). Usually better to do it before that.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

- AOE power cost
- Strikes line power cost
- Swift strike power cost
- Rend bleed pulses
- Ebbing Ire cooldown
- Might/Battle acuity (who really needs to increase AOE that much anymore, though?)

That is a DPS rune.

Possibly a DPS rune for a 2H champ. As a DW, I rarely ever use Swift.

Also, as Rothdire has mentioned, Rend is really only useful for one champ to use in a raid. If armour reduction is not your role in the group, it is not worth using the pips just for bleeds. To take what he said a step further, if another champ has a higher armour rend on their weapon, it is not even worth traiting imprend as the armour reduction doesn't stack (how sweet would it be if it did).

Might Legacy, swift strike power cost, strikes line power cost, rend bleed pulses, bracing attack heal, hamstring range.
I use that rune for everythings from pvping to dpsing to tanking frost and fire giant. Never found a need for ebbing ire CD. Its the burgs that are helping the tank generate the threat way more then champs 25% every so often. I run with a good group of raiders. If i pull agro on trash I just tank it, theres normally so much #### going on in t2 trash its almost easier to have the champ tank the burn target IMO. I slot 1 blue trait and thats bracing heal, I tank through DPS.

For those not ebbing... ebbing ire is about increasing the threat on the tank as much as it's about lowering your own.

I can't speak to wardens, but if you're in a good group a guard will never sacrifice agro-building for survivability. Because your dps will be too much to handle without as much agro gen as you can muster... I've been in much more wipes due to lost-threat to a dps than the tank dying. And sacrificing dps in T2ToO is just not an option.

Provoke is nothing compared to Ebb. Burgs can provoke once every 5s and unless they do it from stealth it's going do to about 1000 damage worth of threat. If you did 100k damage in one minute, and then ebb it's going to be a nice 25k worth of threat. It'd take a burglar like 25 provokes to do that.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...voked-Provoken

Other than that...
Optimal setup is ebbing ire on a swap rune with baller mouse or keyboard macros. Personally i just have it on my main dps rune. I think I lose out on like 40 might by doing that.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

- Might/Battle acuity (who really needs to increase AOE that much anymore, though?)

Come now, you can't possibly be serious. How could you look at +25% damage to all AoE skills and say "eh, not for me". You're a Champ, AoE is your lifeblood! Hell, might as well not even bother with a FA weapon if DPS isn't a concern for you :P I hope you're just being facetious.

Originally Posted by Thorcar

To take what he said a step further, if another champ has a higher armour rend on their weapon, it is not even worth traiting imprend as the armour reduction doesn't stack (how sweet would it be if it did).

The armour reduction stacking would be amazing. I was hoping when they made the bleeds from Rend stack they would make the armour reduction stack too, but to no avail. I think a great majority of people severely underestimate the power of armour reduction.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

Come now, you can't possibly be serious. How could you look at +25% damage to all AoE skills and say "eh, not for me". You're a Champ, AoE is your lifeblood! Hell, might as well not even bother with a FA weapon if DPS isn't a concern for you :P I hope you're just being facetious.

No. My point was you don't need to increase the duration from a legacy because most things are dead by the time the base duration is over. Champs going for longer battle acuity duration legacy are like minstrels who go for rally cooldown legacy; they're just saying they doubt their own abilities.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

No. My point was you don't need to increase the duration from a legacy because most things are dead by the time the base duration is over. Champs going for longer battle acuity duration legacy are like minstrels who go for rally cooldown legacy; they're just saying they doubt their own abilities.

From my last post on the first page, here are several reasons why I find the Battle Acuity Duration legacy to be useful:

Originally Posted by Rothdire

Several reasons actually. One is the transition time between pulls. Having the Battle Acuity buff up for 25 seconds will typically allow me to finish one pull, and start the next one with it still active. I can start the pull with a Raging Blades and keep the buff up without ever having to actually use the Battle Acuity skill itself. It's fun to do a Foundry run and keep the Battle Acuity buff up for every single trash pull with only using the skill once (in between bosses that is).

Another reason is the example that I outlined earlier, in a ST fight, you can use Battle Acuity at the very start of the fight to give your Blade Wall an extra +25% damage. I DW while building fervour (swapping to 2h for Brutal), so Blade Wall is constantly in my ST rotation. You won't be using Raging Blades in a ST fight, so you just bought yourself an extra 10 seconds of more damage.

Another reason is just logistics. With Raging Blades being on a 10 second CD, and the unlegacied Battle Acuity only lasting 15 seconds, you only leave yourself a 5 second window to refresh the buff. What if Raging Blades is just about off CD, but you already have 5 fervour built up. You need to unleash that fervour with either a Blade Storm, Horn, or something similar rather then sitting on the fervour for a second or two waiting for Raging Blades to come off CD. Any time waiting is a loss in DPS. This way you don't have any downtime, you're still unleashing the AoE pain, and you've kept the Battle Acuity buff up the whole time Isn't it frustrating when you use Raging Blades, but the animation hasn't finished yet and the Battle Acuity buff runs out? If you have an immediate skill off CD, you can use it to force it through quickly, but that might not always be the case.

Idk, I don't see myself ever giving up that legacy. What would I replace it with? Ebbing Ire cd? On my swap rune. I don't PvP so I don't have any use for the Hamstring legacy. The legacy is great and nothing that I've found is a better replacement for it.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

From my last post on the first page, here are several reasons why I find the Battle Acuity Duration legacy to be useful:

Idk, I don't see myself ever giving up that legacy. What would I replace it with? Ebbing Ire cd? On my swap rune. I don't PvP so I don't have any use for the Hamstring legacy. The legacy is great and nothing that I've found is a better replacement for it.

Might scroll would be good. Point is, most AOE fights don't last longer than the duration lasts anyway.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Might scroll would be good. Point is, most AOE fights don't last longer than the duration lasts anyway.

Already run a Might stat scroll on my DPS rune though. Here's what I have on my PvE DPS rune:

Swift Strike Power
Blade Line Power
Strike Line Power
Battle Acuity Duration
Rend Pulses
Might stat scroll


I still remain unconvinced of a better legacy to put on then Battle Acuity Duration. Will the Battle Acuity Duration legacy be useful in every single encounter? Close to it for me actually. Like I outlined in my above post, even in ST target fights I find the legacy to be useful (not to mention the other reasons I outlined in my above post). Use it as soon as you run in. You don't lose any fervour since you haven't built any up yet, and you give your tank a split second head start as the animation finishes. I DW while building fervour (swapping to 2h for Brutal), so Blade Wall is constantly in my ST rotation. I just got a free 25 seconds of +25% damage to an important skill in my rotation while sacrificing virtually nothing. Yes, this won't have much benefit if you're strictly running 2h, but for me, it's more then worth it.

Originally Posted by Rothdire

Already run a Might stat scroll on my DPS rune though. Here's what I have on my PvE DPS rune:

Swift Strike Power
Blade Line Power
Strike Line Power
Battle Acuity Duration
Rend Pulses
Might stat scroll


I still remain unconvinced of a better legacy to put on then Battle Acuity Duration. Will the Battle Acuity Duration legacy be useful in every single encounter? Close to it for me actually. Like I outlined in my above post, even in ST target fights I find the legacy to be useful (not to mention the other reasons I outlined in my above post). Use it as soon as you run in. You don't lose any fervour since you haven't built any up yet, and you give your tank a split second head start as the animation finishes. I DW while building fervour (swapping to 2h for Brutal), so Blade Wall is constantly in my ST rotation. I just got a free 25 seconds of +25% damage to an important skill in my rotation while sacrificing virtually nothing. Yes, this won't have much benefit if you're strictly running 2h, but for me, it's more then worth it.

I don't really deal in swap weapons/runes, so I prefer having Ebbing Ire cd on my weapon, since I have no use for Battle Acuity duration. Suppose it's down to preference.