Thread: ToF - Best trait line for PUGs?

Hi there,

This here is a theory I've come up with since I started traiting ToF to solo the Limlight dailies.

I've been in 4 or 5 PUGs without retraitting and I find that, even with the -10% threat yellow trait I sometimes draw aggro.
However, being ToF means I can mostly unleash my shots without worrying too much about it.

What all this means is that for me being ToF traited (still running in Precision) makes it much simpler to reach the damage/threat balance than it was when I was blue/red traited.

I am currently 6y/1b (the one that gives power back with intent concentration) and have been running group content without noticing much reducion on average DPS (I just spend less time stance dancing).

The extra CC is just that: an extra. It ends up not being that great because the other team members just break your control most of the time (even when you are trying to scare the creature back to the tank for aggro recovery).
The penetrating shot avoidance reduction is also a nice little bonus.

Of course, there are exceptions and when not in simple PUGable instance, there is no way that I recomend you to go ToF (unless asked for). For Draigoch, for instance, where threat is not an issue and CC is non-existant, traitting yellow would just be silly...

What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

Hi there,

This here is a theory I've come up with since I started traiting ToF to solo the Limlight dailies.

I've been in 4 or 5 PUGs without retraitting and I find that, even with the -10% threat yellow trait I sometimes draw aggro.
However, being ToF means I can mostly unleash my shots without worrying too much about it.

What all this means is that for me being ToF traited (still running in Precision) makes it much simpler to reach the damage/threat balance than it was when I was blue/red traited.

I am currently 6y/1b (the one that gives power back with intent concentration) and have been running group content without noticing much reducion on average DPS (I just spend less time stance dancing).

The extra CC is just that: an extra. It ends up not being that great because the other team members just break your control most of the time (even when you are trying to scare the creature back to the tank for aggro recovery).
The penetrating shot avoidance reduction is also a nice little bonus.

Of course, there are exceptions and when not in simple PUGable instance, there is no way that I recomend you to go ToF (unless asked for). For Draigoch, for instance, where threat is not an issue and CC is non-existant, traitting yellow would just be silly...

What are your thoughts?

You may well be right. But all that means is that it is one glaring indictment of our aggro management tools (or complete lack thereof). It's what a lot of us have been saying for ages. Our only effective aggro management tool is not to hurt things too much so probably self nerfing by traiting the pretty useless outside of limlight gorge, TOF is probably as easy a way to to that as any.

So rejoice hunters - TOF isn't a useless trait line. It's the other two.

ToF does have its but I often find myself rather just want to kill the mob instead of "wasting time" on CC'ing it

Originally Posted by Kongas

You may well be right. But all that means is that it is one glaring indictment of our aggro management tools (or complete lack thereof). It's what a lot of us have been saying for ages. Our only effective aggro management tool is not to hurt things too much so probably self nerfing by traiting the pretty useless outside of limlight gorge, TOF is probably as easy a way to to that as any.

So rejoice hunters - TOF isn't a useless trait line. It's the other two.

Couldn't agree more. :P

A very good tank CAN hold aggro against a red/blue traitted hunter going at ease (not overdoing it, but neither holding back after a while). But that's a very good tank.
In a PUG however, you don't really know how is the tank so with our current lack of threat tools you are left with three choices: - stay red/blue traited and run in endurance most of the time (yay!), trait yellow or deal with aggro (holding back, etc).

I usually go for the third one, but I'm really starting to think of keeping the ToF line while not in a group I know is good.

The silly part of endurance stance is that I remember getting aggro only shooting endurance quick shots... They just crit too much! It's just part of our amazing threat tools... >_<

Oh, that's right! There is a 4th choice now: Run with a Warden in Assailment for the threat reduction (you even get bonus damage). But wait... nobody wants a ranged dps warden in a group... Nevermind this. >_<

This seems pretty silly to me.

Taking a quick look at your gear, you are decent but far from an optimal DPS setup and should not be pulling too terribly hard from any tank with more then a week at 75.
Honestly, you are not doing them any favors by cutting your damage in half so they cannot learn to hold.
Really, download combat analysis and look at the difference in DPS against a dummy. Look at the difference in power management.
If you have the 10% threat down and the threat book you should not pull against anything but a total newbe tank, if you do pull then put on endurance. If you still pull then its the tank absolutely and you should drop group and save yourself the frustration.
If you are doing too much DPS for the tank to handle, and you don't want to drop group, then swap out a bit of morale/mitigation gear and be the tank.

Honestly, I am reminded of a hunter back in November who posted a bow with all the damage legacies taken off saying how nice it was to never pull aggro. Sure, he never pulled aggro... that's because the mini was generating more heal aggro then he was DPS. Hunter CC has its place, don't get me wrong, but don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing nearly the same damage or will last nearly as long, simply due to terrible power management.
CC traited I am lucky to pull over 700 DPS even with raid buffs (more likely 500). DPS traited I can do 1200-1600 DPS without raid buffs (depending on duration).

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

Couldn't agree more. :P

A very good tank CAN hold aggro against a red/blue traitted hunter going at ease (not overdoing it, but neither holding back after a while). But that's a very good tank.
In a PUG however, you don't really know how is the tank so with our current lack of threat tools you are left with three choices: - stay red/blue traited and run in endurance most of the time (yay!), trait yellow or deal with aggro (holding back, etc).

You may think this is so, but actually its not quite accurate. 2 weeks into my guard being at cap, and I rarely lose aggro to hunters. I do lose to a few champs I play with... but between first age weapons and traiting higher aggro generation (ugh) they expect to pull. Even then its one engage and the mob is back on me.
I would not consider myself a "Very good" tank, but would instead say the issue is tanks that do not understand holding aggro, and do not have proper threat legacies/traits.
Threat is VERY easy to keep against a hunter going easy, assuming you a) get a block response, and b) have the right setup.

Threads like these just make me hang my head.


The class is just a messy joke of threat, mediocre dps, bland utility CC, and tissue paper survivability.

Originally Posted by Strikerin

You may think this is so, but actually its not quite accurate. 2 weeks into my guard being at cap, and I rarely lose aggro to hunters.

Well maybe that's because the hunter is already self-nerfing their dps. When I'm in a random skirmish pug I know from experience most tanks cannot hold aggro so rather than upset people by pulling and killing stuff I'll just watch what is going on and do 'enough'. It might look to the tank that they're holding aggro. Sure - maybe tanks won't learn but I'm not there to help them learn, i'm there to help beat the content and not get shouted at for pulling aggro.

Unless there are two or three hunters and a group leader that understands that setting a seperate ranged rat and trusting the hunters to unleash full dps on tactical targets of choice is often a great idea (in the average 12 man skirm but instances where set tactics and playing one's part is crucial are a different story).

I wish more pug leaders understood that tactic. I remember leading a pug 12 man thru tuckborough and, much to the anger of the tank, recruited 5 other hunters. We just set a ranged rat and slaughtered everything in our path as we sprinted through it.

It was nice just to be able to go all out and not worry about aggro for a change.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Threads like these just make me hang my head.


The class is just a messy joke of threat, mediocre dps, bland utility CC, and tissue paper survivability.

It would be nice if it made a Dev hang their head but I expect the message they take from it is:

'See - I told you to give my super-awesome work on ToF a try. Knew you'd like it. My work here is done.'

Originally Posted by Strikerin

CC traited I am lucky to pull over 700 DPS even with raid buffs (more likely 500). DPS traited I can do 1200-1600 DPS without raid buffs (depending on duration).

Is this for real? More than twice the damage from traits alone? (I'm not doubting, I'm just making sure that all you changed for these tests was the traits)

Edit: Actually, I AM doubting. If these numbers are real, this means that traiting red/blue or whatever mix you had making the tests gives you about 100% damage bonus.
This is just not possible (or is it?).
It would mean about +100% damage from red traits and crit bonus or about -50% induction time from blue traits (you actually get close to -50% induction time blue traited, now that I look at it but just close and that's with improved fleetness in your rotations).

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

The class is just a messy joke of threat,

Agree :/

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

mediocre dps,

What? :S What exactly are you comparing yourselt to? A Balrog? We remain the single target dps kings unless the world turned upside down and I didn't notice. :/

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

bland utility CC,

It's limited alright...

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

and tissue paper survivability.

C'mon! At least cardboard! :P

Originally Posted by Strikerin

but don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing nearly the same damage or will last nearly as long, simply due to terrible power management.

What do you meant by the terrible power management part?

I think you'll realize sooner or later that 6y/1b is doing no one any favours unless you're managing cc on ToO trash pulls. Unless you're placing snares every minute (wasting some induction time for small amount of DoT on a boss), and losing all of those red/blue trait line bonuses, I would never trait yellow on a boss fight EVER, period.

It seems like you haven't spent much time with good tanks, as I can go fullout dps in most ToO T2 runs with a guard tank and most certainly fullout with a warden tank as their threat gen is insane now. I only grab aggro now when a guard has a threat resist, but even then we just switch up positions and he grabs it right back.

If you're about to pop BH + NH during a fight (and the LL jewelry if you have it), consider popping IBN as well as it'll counteract a good amount of that aggro/damage you plan on dishing out over the next 15-20s.

Originally Posted by Zulubeast

If you're about to pop BH + NH during a fight (and the LL jewelry if you have it), consider popping IBN as well as it'll counteract a good amount of that aggro/damage you plan on dishing out over the next 15-20s.

IBN is Perceived Threat and will do nothing to counteract threat generation, when the duration ends threat is exactly as it would have been if you'd never used it.

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

Is this for real? More than twice the damage from traits alone? (I'm not doubting, I'm just making sure that all you changed for these tests was the traits)

Edit: Actually, I AM doubting. If these numbers are real, this means that traiting red/blue or whatever mix you had making the tests gives you about 100% damage bonus.
This is just not possible (or is it?).
It would mean about +100% damage from red traits and crit bonus or about -50% induction time from blue traits (you actually get close to -50% induction time blue traited, now that I look at it but just close and that's with improved fleetness in your rotations).

I was surprised myself, and double checked my numbers. I typically run blue line with fleetness active (5b2r), so I get the massive induction boost (30%), needful haste is up 1/2 the time, I generate one extra focus every 5 QS, -30% IPS power cost, 10% crit mag, 600 crit rating, ~10% more damage from swift bow, etc. All of which I lose when I go CC. I do not count the 10% damage to PS/BlA or the +1 focus on crit because I don't unslot those when I CC.
To be fair, 1200 DPS is more of my sustained rate, as I do not yet have a first age or the 5th Faron. 1600 is blowing cooldowns and just unloading, with a natural time limit and no power concerns because the limlight mobs only have 70k health
With buffs I have done 2200 single target (though two burgs and a cappy is kinda cheating for looking at damage)

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

What do you meant by the terrible power management part?

-30% IPS power cost, better power restore from skills, and if I am running CC then I am (almost always) using all 3 legendary traits for CC. No more BoTR and Press Onwards. I am around 1200 ICPR right now, but BotR really brings that up a lot (600 or so?)
It makes a big enough difference that I swapped legacies around to make sure my CC bow had both power cost reductions on it. I do lose some dps from that, but its not a terrible amount as I last longer.
I am sure that with some more testing and refining rotations I could raise both of those numbers, but to be honest I don't really have the ambition for it right now. 1200 unbuffed DPS is more then enough for anything but t2 ToO, and I don't really care to get an "ideal" rotation until I finally get Saruman completed. (I anticipate a LOT more DPS from the faron 5-set) *rants about kinmates with lag that don't pot in P3*

Originally Posted by Smugo

IBN is Perceived Threat and will do nothing to counteract threat generation, when the duration ends threat is exactly as it would have been if you'd never used it.

Not sure on that one, I have heard (but not tested personally) that it has been bugged since it came out, so you actually generate 60-85% less threat while it is active in addition to your previous total being masked.

I really had no idea. :P
Since I mostly do PUGs, I really barely ever get to go all out and I don't really have it in me to test it on dummies. :P

I'm glad I have guys like you to do the tests for me.

You mentioned Press Onward. Do you actually get to use it ever? I always traited it when going into a boss fight, but barelly ever get to use it. The induction always screws me up.

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

I really had no idea. :P
Since I mostly do PUGs, I really barely ever get to go all out and I don't really have it in me to test it on dummies. :P

I'm glad I have guys like you to do the tests for me.

You mentioned Press Onward. Do you actually get to use it ever? I always traited it when going into a boss fight, but barelly ever get to use it. The induction always screws me up.

I usually trait PO for boss fights, along with my capstone and Bow of the Righteous. If my group is in a good spot and I need power (already using my pot/int. conc.) since we don't have a LM or cappy or something strange, I'll use it for the power boost. If anything, that 4s induction + animation gives the tank more aggro building time so I can go harder on the boss.

If you're using it for morale, a healer isn't/isn't in a position to do his job (could be bad positioning on shadow or with a root) and in which case its a good idea to have it traited to lessen his stress.

I do actually use press onwards, as in some fights you have nothing else to do (Consider foundry... With decent DPS all 3 targets will be green for the 4 second induction easily) Saruman between phases you can use it the same way. Draigoch p3, list goes on.
And as a bonus, whenever a massive AOE hits you can take care of a good chunk of your own morale while the healers are keeping the higher priority targets alive.

Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

You mentioned Press Onward. Do you actually get to use it ever? I always traited it when going into a boss fight, but barelly ever get to use it. The induction always screws me up.

It's good to have on hand, the only Orthanc boss I've dropped it for so far is shadow since I needed both RoT and Bard's Arrow for the adds. That being said I've only used it in F&F since I have plenty of time to relax in that fight.