Thread: Race Change - Hopefully different from previous post.

Originally Posted by Zarador

We have a name change service, but why? Well, sometimes people make dumb mistakes when they "try out" a game and then find themselves immersed in it down the line. That little guy that you called Tinker Bella seemed like a great idea at the time to mess around with. Now you are really getting into the lore or playing with a bunch of friends and somehow it just does not feel so right anymore.

You're not comparing like with like, there. Changing name is fair enough in an RPG (there are characters in the books who've changed the name they go by). It's not tied into character appearance or game mechanics, either.

It's always been traditional for some choices to be binding in an RPG. It used to be that things like stat and skill point assignment and similar choices of that kind where permanent, that once you'd made them you were stuck with them even if you'd gimped your character. Well, here and in other modern MMOs they've done away with stat assignment altogether, and you can fiddle around with traits and the like for a price. Now most people would be happy with that, but for some having been encouraged to believe they should be able to take choices back they want more. 'We want gender changes!', people cry. 'We want race changes!'. Some even ask for class changes, although to be fair there's general agreement that's beyond the pale. But really, the permanent choices you are asked to make are only fair in a game of this sort.

Same goes with race for some players. I have to tell you that although I have no desire to change my dwarf Hunter into another race, Rushgore was miserable at best. I spent a short time there, then left to do 75% of the rest of Great River dreading my return to Rushgore. Hit map, walk 10 feet looking for the spot, get aggro, rince and repeat. Can't see above the brush at all. Same went with parts of Dunland. I can really see some players wishing they could change to a taller race.

Some actual consequence for a change, a bit of mild and temporary inconvenience, and what do we get? Cries for more convenience. It's an RPG; stuff like that should crop up from time to time. Not everything should be convenient, all the time. Deal.

Then of course there are the Min/Max players. Same deal as wrong choice (for them) on a time invested character. Obviously they would pay a fee to make their character what they feel it should be.

The poor dears. Maybe if they were a little less obsessed with numbers they'd get more into the spirit of things.

Bottom line is from a game mechanic standpoint we want to retain players and keep them happy. Why should it be such an opposed issue to strangers if we change our race? Your friends will accept your choice and the opinion of strangers don't matter in the end.

Bottom line, if you have to ask that question then you really don't know what kind of game you're playing.

Only time will tell if it sparks enough interest for Turbine to look into it and perhaps implement the requested service. I don't however accept that it breaks lore or spoils the game for others. Re-Roll is not a viable option for those seriously disenchanted with their race.

Rerolling is always a viable option; it doesn't stop being valid just because you don't fancy it. You haven't earned a level 85 Elf by having played a level 85 Dwarf, or whatever; just because it's a game, that doesn't mean it's somehow 'right' to consider a character as just a little ball of numbers you should be able to slap a complete new skin on whenever you feel like it.

My Human and Elf characters can't see over the grass in Rushgore, either. I have to turn graphics down.

Originally Posted by Darlakhan

All of you that are against this, you really don't have a valid reason for it, as ideally this would be a pay for service. In other words, YOU Don't have to buy it. So get over yourselves for wanting to limit other players.

This argument always makes me laugh. "If you don't like it, you don't have to use it" is not a valid argument. How about if I want a shark pet with laser beams coming out of its head? If you don't like it, YOU don't have to use it.

Can you see the absurdity now?

There's a reason why there's a bunch of these threads and it never goes anywhere. It's because there aren't enough people who want it to justify developing it, and because there are lots of players against it. Neither one of those alone is necessarily a stopper, but combine them and you're dead.

Besides, technically, this is available today as a pay-for-service. It'll just cost around $200M and 5 years to fund your own MMORPG, and you can dictate the design however you like. If you don't want to wait that long, you could just buy Turbine from WB. Or go for the big guns, for a mere $18B, you could have controlling interest in Time-Warner. Then you could not only change races, but you could greenlight your own movies!

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

You're not comparing like with like, there. Changing name is fair enough in an RPG (there are characters in the books who've changed the name they go by). It's not tied into character appearance or game mechanics, either.

It's always been traditional for some choices to be binding in an RPG. It used to be that things like stat and skill point assignment and similar choices of that kind where permanent, that once you'd made them you were stuck with them even if you'd gimped your character. Well, here and in other modern MMOs they've done away with stat assignment altogether, and you can fiddle around with traits and the like for a price. Now most people would be happy with that, but for some having been encouraged to believe they should be able to take choices back they want more. 'We want gender changes!', people cry. 'We want race changes!'. Some even ask for class changes, although to be fair there's general agreement that's beyond the pale. But really, the permanent choices you are asked to make are only fair in a game of this sort.

Some actual consequence for a change, a bit of mild and temporary inconvenience, and what do we get? Cries for more convenience. It's an RPG; stuff like that should crop up from time to time. Not everything should be convenient, all the time. Deal.

The poor dears. Maybe if they were a little less obsessed with numbers they'd get more into the spirit of things.

Bottom line, if you have to ask that question then you really don't know what kind of game you're playing.

Rerolling is always a viable option; it doesn't stop being valid just because you don't fancy it. You haven't earned a level 85 Elf by having played a level 85 Dwarf, or whatever; just because it's a game, that doesn't mean it's somehow 'right' to consider a character as just a little ball of numbers you should be able to slap a complete new skin on whenever you feel like it.

First off, as I stated, I have no desire to use the service should they implement it, but why all the animosity? How does it effect you if a stranger changes their race or even gender for that matter? How does it even effect the game world? Please don't bring up the "tough luck" answer and old school adage that there needs to be some sort of punishment to a player for making the wrong choice. That was circa 1999, not the way games should be now.

In your opinion, someone who invests a great deal of time into a character should just trash it because, tough luck, bad choice for you, too bad, quit or re-roll. That seems a bit harsh.

Guess what, they also cater the game to those who play the numbers. Stat tomes seem to be generating some income and people raid for minor improvements. Just because you or I don't see the game through their eyes does not make that play style a viable choice for many.

Hey lets go back to the old days. You die, you have corpse rot, corpse runs and huge experience/level loss. Choose the wrong traits and you are hosed over. Don't have a healer and a slower as well as a tank, too bad, don't play today. Oh yeah, that's right, they figured out that punishing players for mistakes is not all that fun for the player and they tend to quit those games.

Speaking of obsessed; perhaps if more players were less obsessed with what the other players do with their time the game might be more enjoyable for everyone.

Originally Posted by Sardonyx

This argument always makes me laugh. "If you don't like it, you don't have to use it" is not a valid argument. How about if I want a shark pet with laser beams coming out of its head? If you don't like it, YOU don't have to use it.

Can you see the absurdity now?

There's a reason why there's a bunch of these threads and it never goes anywhere. It's because there aren't enough people who want it to justify developing it, and because there are lots of players against it. Neither one of those alone is necessarily a stopper, but combine them and you're dead.

Besides, technically, this is available today as a pay-for-service. It'll just cost around $200M and 5 years to fund your own MMORPG, and you can dictate the design however you like. If you don't want to wait that long, you could just buy Turbine from WB. Or go for the big guns, for a mere $18B, you could have controlling interest in Time-Warner. Then you could not only change races, but you could greenlight your own movies!

So lets change it so once you make a character of a certain class, no re-roll, you have that class for life. A one time shot at one Hunter, hit create and that is your Hunter for life. Oh wait, that would be a bad idea. Let them make another capped out of the same class instead. It will have no different effect on the game world, but in our hearts, we will know that not allowing them to change race kept sharks with laser beams out of the game and machine guns for $18.

Radiance was here to stay as well, too bad all those players wasted their time complaining about it. It's almost as bad as the solo players who whined for so long about not being able to complete the epic storyline. They never did allow change that system, right?

Personally, I don't desire a change in race. I can however appreciate that there are players that really do.

Lets stop complaining about the lag as well, they might add eagle mounts for $19.99.

Originally Posted by Zarador

So lets change it so once you make a character of a certain class, no re-roll, you have that class for life. A one time shot at one Hunter, hit create and that is your Hunter for life. Oh wait, that would be a bad idea. Let them make another capped out of the same class instead. It will have no different effect on the game world, but in our hearts, we will know that not allowing them to change race kept sharks with laser beams out of the game and machine guns for $18.

I don't know what you're saying, but I'm sure that being able to roll a class only once has nothing to do with the discussion.

Radiance was here to stay as well, too bad all those players wasted their time complaining about it. It's almost as bad as the solo players who whined for so long about not being able to complete the epic storyline. They never did allow change that system, right?

And since the removal of Radiance was a paid-for service and there were scads of players who wanted to keep it, I can see where your analogy works here.

Oh. Wait.

Personally, I don't desire a change in race. I can however appreciate that there are players that really do.

I can appreciate that there are some players that want a race change. I don't think there's any justification for Turbine implementing it. That's not a contradiction, no matter how much you want it to be.

Lets stop complaining about the lag as well, they might add eagle mounts for $19.99.

Yes, because that's a logical extension of... nothing at all. Analogies are serious business. Use them correctly or don't use them at all.

Originally Posted by Zarador

First off, as I stated, I have no desire to use the service should they implement it, but why all the animosity? How does it effect you if a stranger changes their race or even gender for that matter? How does it even effect the game world? Please don't bring up the "tough luck" answer and old school adage that there needs to be some sort of punishment to a player for making the wrong choice. That was circa 1999, not the way games should be now.

Since when is lack of a convenience feature 'punishment'? My point was that all the real 'tough luck' stuff has long since been removed from games of this sort, and now people are trying to pretend that not having particular convenience features is 'harsh' (to use your choice of word).

In your opinion, someone who invests a great deal of time into a character should just trash it because, tough luck, bad choice for you, too bad, quit or re-roll. That seems a bit harsh.

Let's get one thing straight: no character is ever left unplayable because of choice of race. If a player isn't prepared to reroll, then they can't really want that level 85 Elf (or whatever) all that badly, they just want the convenience. We wants it, yes we does, Precious.

Guess what, they also cater the game to those who play the numbers. Stat tomes seem to be generating some income and people raid for minor improvements. Just because you or I don't see the game through their eyes does not make that play style a viable choice for many.

That doesn't mean that min/maxers need to be pandered to by making it convenient. If they want the absolute best as they see it then perhaps they should work for it, rather than expecting the game to hand it to them.

Hey lets go back to the old days. You die, you have corpse rot, corpse runs and huge experience/level loss. Choose the wrong traits and you are hosed over. Don't have a healer and a slower as well as a tank, too bad, don't play today. Oh yeah, that's right, they figured out that punishing players for mistakes is not all that fun for the player and they tend to quit those games.

As I already pointed out, there's no real comparison between the way games used to actively punish players for making mistakes and what we're talking about, having chosen the 'wrong' race for a character in a game which doesn't punish you for that in any way. You are not 'hosed over' if you do that. Your character will not be perma-gimped. Die-hard min/maxers may cry bitter tears because their character is somehow 'ruined' by not being whatever is currently considered to be optimal, but that's all. You will always have a perfectly playable character, regardless.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

As I already pointed out, there's no real comparison between the way games used to actively punish players for making mistakes and what we're talking about, having chosen the 'wrong' race for a character in a game which doesn't punish you for that in any way. You are not 'hosed over' if you do that. Your character will not be perma-gimped. Die-hard min/maxers may cry bitter tears because their character is somehow 'ruined' by not being whatever is currently considered to be optimal, but that's all. You will always have a perfectly playable character, regardless.

Actually, sometimes it isn't just the min/maxers that want this scroll. Some of us want it for the aesthetics.

I made a hobbit burg but I now realise I'd prefer a man. There is no benefit to this in-game other than my own personal tastes. It's not enough to make me want to scrap all the time and money I spent on him but it is enough to bug me every time I log in to the point where I just don't play him now.

The same with my elf runekeeper. I'd prefer a dwarf runekeeper just because I want a little stock lightning factory over the girly looking elf mage. I didn't realise how much I'd grow to hate the elf and hobbit characters until both were well into the higher levels and they still irritate me.

So would you still stand opposed to a race change scroll with no other argument than 'RP games were harder in my day'? Having to re-roll would cost me time and money but I'd prefer to just have it cost me money.

I would buy a race change token, of course with some limitations (no dwarf loremasters or hobbit champions :P). Developers should also consider that if someone changes race, he will probably change name also, spending more TP.

No.

Because it's a dead horse; stop beating it.

Originally Posted by Elemiire

No.

Because it's a dead horse; stop beating it.

In a way, it's sorta ironic. We have threads that have gone on for some time about housing hooks, cosmetics, even a thread about making females look more with more revealing clothing. All of which have been beaten, shaken, stirred and rehashed over and over again, yet some people still desire such changes. Changes that have no effect on the mechanics of the game whatsoever.

Prettier house? Nice, but could be argued as a waste of resources. Cool looking no stat outfits? Sellable in the store I would imagine, but then again, many would complain that they should be free rewards or crafted items. More revealing female character? Creepy actually that it's such a huge issue, given the number of males playing females in online games.

Yet I respect those requests, just like I respect the OP's request in this thread. A little more polish here and there in the game might just spice it up and attract even more players. I have also learned in over 14+ years of online gaming to never say never (f2p anyone?). No one ever knows how close a suggestion is to being implemented and how a few extra nudges just might sway the argument.

That's what this area of the forums is, a suggestion area. Allow me to also point out another plus that is argued by the opposing side. The fact that this issue has been brought up so many times in the past. That would indicate to me that it has a chance at becoming an ongoing revenue that does not get effected by the game aging. If anything, it might spark interest in returning players to change their race rather than play a race they no longer enjoy but don't wish to re-roll.