Thread: Race Change - Hopefully different from previous post.

Ok, so there have been tons of forum threads on this subject.

All of you that are against this, you really don't have a valid reason for it, as ideally this would be a pay for service. In other words, YOU Don't have to buy it. So get over yourselves for wanting to limit other players.

As for coding issues, racial traits, etc. Im not a programmer, and im sure the developers have an extremely difficult job. However, there are several other games that offer similar services and they seem to go off with out a hitch. (i.e World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, Aion(not race change, just sex change)) WoW actually has racial abilities, so you can't say it would be impossible.

Its a disparaging thought wanting to change your human guardian to a dwarf guardian, when your level 75 guardian has endgame raid gear, max crafting professions, and bound items you have already spent TP on that can't be gotten again, i.e. Steed of the Guardian. Then someone tells you, tough luck, re-roll.

Whether it would be difficult or not, whether it would cost turbine money or not, if its set up as a pay-to-use service, turbine would only have to do it for the people who actually want it, so other than adding it as an option in the store, and then the actual process of doing it, there isn't a whole lot else to worry about or have done.

I'm a lifetime member, and i still once a month on average purchase turbine points because they usually come out with some pretty cool stuff in the store. Race change is the feature i would like added more than anything.

I am not against a race or gender change option (paid or not, I don't care much). Also, there are differences between the races (stats and classes that can be played), all of this can be taken into account.

But...

There are a limited number of people working on the game, hence resources can be only applied to certain areas of programming. Personally my priority would not be to have a race / gender change programmed, but certain bugs fixed and new content go further with me than this...

Sorry.

Rather than see a race change, I would prefer it if turbine brought out a brand new class instead.

Originally Posted by Darlakhan

Whether it would be difficult or not, whether it would cost turbine money or not, if its set up as a pay-to-use service, turbine would only have to do it for the people who actually want it, so other than adding it as an option in the store, and then the actual process of doing it, there isn't a whole lot else to worry about or have done.

It isn't the cost of doing it once developed that is the issue, but rather the cost of developing it in the first place. Turbine would have to be convinced that there was sufficient demand to a) make it a high enough priority to get on the work queue, and b) recoup the development cost as well as the running cost.

Given that nothing in software develpment is cheap, I think they would have to believe that there would (literally) thousands of people wanting to make use of such a service. The fact that you would happily pay $25 for it, is not sufficient. Find a thousand friends and you might be getting into the right ball park.

Sorry if that is a harsh reality check, but merely saying that you would pay for a service is never going to be enough.

You don't want to be limited? No problem. Buy your own server. How would your lvl75 characters explain it away upon a roleplaying server?

Originally Posted by wachkussen

You don't want to be limited? No problem. Buy your own server. How would your lvl75 characters explain it away upon a roleplaying server?

Actually that is an easy one:
"The Maiar <punished / blessed > me with a racial change since I was so <discriminating against / praising > the <new race>"
Although lore-wise there is not a proof that it ever happened / will happen.

But anyway as long as there is no profitable business-case I do not think that Turbine / WB will implement it.

I'm with OP on this. Too long have we sat in the shadows as our spur of the moment race decisions have annoyed us. Too long have the RP minority held us back. Too long have the greedy pushed us back, wanting to claim every single developer they can to develop new content instead of letting us have one. Too long.

Race changers... it is now time to strike!

Lore breaking. 'nuff said.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

ROFLOL. That really made me laugh

Originally Posted by Okamion

Lore breaking. 'nuff said.

That 'argument' has been thrown aside as trash since it was first used. It's not lore breaking since it isn't an in-game function, it's a store service.

For anyone else that wants to try to use 'lore breaking', please remember that it means absolutely nothing. You might as well just say 'because it's duck painting!'

Originally Posted by Dorothir

That 'argument' has been thrown aside as trash since it was first used. It's not lore breaking since it isn't an in-game function, it's a store service.

For anyone else that wants to try to use 'lore breaking', please remember that it means absolutely nothing. You might as well just say 'because it's duck painting!'

You don't understand. Tolkein will revoke the rights if the game breaks lore.

Originally Posted by Okamion

You don't understand. Tolkein will revoke the rights if the game breaks lore.

You are right if the game broke lore, but selling a race-change option via the store would not be a lore-breaking action. Just as the books do not say that it is possible, they also do not say that it is impossible.

Note: Personally I think it would be strange and thus I would rather restart a toon than do a race-change. But as people want to pay for it (and if Turbine thinks it has a business-case) let them do it. IMHO it should never be a free action.

Originally Posted by Okamion

You don't understand. Tolkein will revoke the rights if the game breaks lore.

You don't understand. Race changes won't break the lore. I'll repeat: It is not in-game, it is a service. Just as world transfers are a service.

Race Change - Hopefully different from previous post.

I missed it - how is this suggestion different from previous similar suggestions? I see a rant about people 'shooting down' race change suggestions, but I don't see an actual, commentable, suggestion.

Because it's duck painting.

I guess I missed the part where they explained how it is that many players after playing for 75 levels and purchasing all kinds of perks from the store come to the decision that they rather be another race than what they are now.

I'm also curious why those other games rich with this feature are not simply coding in the ability to play for free up to end game or choose how much of a discount a player wishes to receive on their store items, content and access based on simply playing the game. Since every game should be clone of another, then I should be able to log into my F2P account in World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, and Aion.

Am I against the idea? Absolutely not! Given the nature of Turbine and their store, there must be some reason why they have not adopted the idea though. It might be licensing, could be financial, could be they simply have not got around to it on their list of things to do (charge for).

I do respect the OP's opinion. Myself, I never saw a reason to play to end game and then change my avatar. That's just me though, I'm sure there are many valid reasons for many players to desire such a change. I do however refute the argument that just because "X" game has it, "Y" game should as well. If all games were the same it would be like playing alternates in different game genres.

Here's why I would personally like to be able to change a current character rather than make a new one.

I hate questing. Seriously, I hate it. I did it because I had to in order to get certain things, but after I finish any of these quests I think, "thank god I don't have to do that again."

If for some reason I was ever to want to end my main character in order to try something else, I would absolutely love the ability to change EVERYTHING I wanted on an existing character (race, gender, name and appearance) while being able to keep the completed quests, horses, items, etc I had already suffered through content to earn (player vs character).

Originally Posted by Okamion

You don't understand. Tolkein will revoke the rights if the game breaks lore.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

You don't understand. Race changes won't break the lore. I'll repeat: It is not in-game, it is a service. Just as world transfers are a service.

I agree with Dorothir 100% on the lore part. Once we log into the game, we are in the lore of the game. Since we can start over as any race that class allows, it's a game mechanic not related to the lore.

If you go with the attitude that it is lore breaking, then we would only have one character allowed and only be allowed to play on one server, period. Unless we are Cybil, we could not be multiple classes in multiple worlds were it lore breaking.

I still think it's a matter of economics, lack of interest or preference on the part of Turbine. It's certainly not lore related.

Originally Posted by Nemelis

Actually that is an easy one:
"The Maiar <punished / blessed > me with a racial change since I was so <discriminating against / praising > the <new race>"
Although lore-wise there is not a proof that it ever happened / will happen.

Using that argument, you could argue that Turbine ought to provide us all with lightsabers.

Originally Posted by djheydt

Using that argument, you could argue that Turbine ought to provide us all with lightsabers.

I did not say that it was a good argument ;-).
But what I wanted to say is that one could always think up something while roleplaying.

Originally Posted by Zarador

I agree with Dorothir 100% on the lore part. Once we log into the game, we are in the lore of the game. Since we can start over as any race that class allows, it's a game mechanic not related to the lore.

If you go with the attitude that it is lore breaking, then we would only have one character allowed and only be allowed to play on one server, period. Unless we are Cybil, we could not be multiple classes in multiple worlds were it lore breaking.

I still think it's a matter of economics, lack of interest or preference on the part of Turbine. It's certainly not lore related.

When you reroll, nobody has ever interacted with you as that character.

To get a race change, all those NPCs or players who sent you on quests or fought beside you or crafted you something knew you as an Elf. Now you come rolling around the block as a Hobbit.

I doubt we'll ever see race changing in Middle Earth. Just spend a few more seconds on the character creation screen and find what you like--it's not like racial traits make a huge difference.

Besides, once we had the ability to change our character's race, what would be next? A movement to allow play as a wizard?

Originally Posted by Frisco

When you reroll, nobody has ever interacted with you as that character.

To get a race change, all those NPCs or players who sent you on quests or fought beside you or crafted you something knew you as an Elf. Now you come rolling around the block as a Hobbit.

I doubt we'll ever see race changing in Middle Earth. Just spend a few more seconds on the character creation screen and find what you like--it's not like racial traits make a huge difference.

To be fair it's not only about racial traits. Sometimes you are going along playing a race and you find you get annoyed with something like; because hobbits are short that often have to swim through water other races can walk through. You might find you hate the way armor looks on Elves. Maybe the way a human laughs annoys you. These things are not apparent at character creation.

I think Turbine should implement this as a service you have to pay for, in other words a convenience service more than anything.
Lore breaking? Come on now, we all know there are certain things we are willing to accept within the confines of the lore. Hobbits rarely if at all would become adventurers, but we accept it because it works for the game. No I don't have a problem with it, I'm just using it as an example.

I think it could be a good way to Warnerbine to generate a little extra cash.

Originally Posted by Frisco

To get a race change, all those NPCs or players who sent you on quests or fought beside you or crafted you something knew you as an Elf. Now you come rolling around the block as a Hobbit.

When I went back to the NPC with my friends after aiding them in defeating the named villain, my friends were awarded the same "unique" rewards I had already received when I killed that mob the first time around. Oddly, the NPC forgot how my efforts were rewarded for killing that mob and saving the town...again.

When I return to Moria at level 75 with gear far superior than they could possibly equip me, I am still told that I'm ill prepared.

I can enter certain towns in the game and be told over and over again that I am new to these parts and a stranger. Hey, remember me? I turned in 30 quests today and passed you 15 times, been coming here for a few months, I'm not new.

Yeah, I get it, the blah...blah...blah hunt at night. Really? Seriously? Again?

Please don't explain to me about how the NPCs remembered me.

I fail to see why this should be a priority.

The racial traits are, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant. The only reason for wanting such a change is cosmetic. I would expect that adding this in would take a great deal of effort, and frankly I don't think its worth the time to invest the resources.

Originally Posted by Armaius

I fail to see why this should be a priority.

The racial traits are, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant. The only reason for wanting such a change is cosmetic. I would expect that adding this in would take a great deal of effort, and frankly I don't think its worth the time to invest the resources.

Some people simply want to change to a different race, goodness knows that a few hours in Rushgore as dwarf really changed my opinion on the importance of height. Not everyone wants the change just for stats.

People ask for changes all the time, much akin to those requesting shared coin in the bank when one can simply mail coin to an alternate. Why should they take time to develop a mechanism already in the game?

Originally Posted by Darlakhan

All of you that are against this, you really don't have a valid reason for it, as ideally this would be a pay for service. In other words, YOU Don't have to buy it. So get over yourselves for wanting to limit other players.

I have to say, this line kinda makes me against the idea. Being rude is not a good way to make a proposal.

It won't be that much of a big deal, but I really think that a feature like this would cheapen this game. In the other MMOs I've played like WoW, Age of Conan, SWTOR, UO and so on they were just game. But to me, LOTRO is different. I really don't want some Hobbit I know to come up to me and now they are an elf. I think it takes the "RP" out of Role Playing Game.

It won't be a deal breaker for me and I won't care enough to nerd rage but I don't like this suggestion.

/unsigned.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

I have to say, this line kinda makes me against the idea. Being rude is not a good way to make a proposal.

It won't be that much of a big deal, but I really think that a feature like this would cheapen this game. In the other MMOs I've played like WoW, Age of Conan, SWTOR, UO and so on they were just game. But to me, LOTRO is different. I really don't want some Hobbit I know to come up to me and now they are an elf. I think it takes the "RP" out of Role Playing Game.

It won't be a deal breaker for me and I won't care enough to nerd rage but I don't like this suggestion.

/unsigned.

While I agree with you, I gave you rep because of the Tom Baker avatar. *whovian brofist*.

Originally Posted by Okamion

While I agree with you, I gave you rep because of the Tom Baker avatar. *whovian brofist*.

You just earned a Jelly Baby! Darn, The Daleks took them while I wasn't looking!

Originally Posted by Nemelis

But what I wanted to say is that one could always think up something while roleplaying.

RP-wise it's impossible (that does drag lore into it), so don't even try going there.

And as ever, race changes are out of place in anything that calls itself an RPG because they break with the whole basis of what a character is supposed to be (a particular individual, just like in a story, not just some ball of stats, gear and skills you want to have a whole new look or different racial traits for).

First off, My apologies for my intial sentance coming out so badly. Its just all the previous people complaining about race changes, i wanted to avoid. I just made that worse.

The biggest reason i see is people want to avoid it from a lore / role playing standpoint. If this was a valid reason, how do we explain cosmetic gear? For the role players out there, or the lore addicts, i would love to hear the explination of a Hobbit mini wearing cloth armor, but physically showing the hobbit mini decked out in full plate mail.

As i stated so badly in my initial post, i'll restate it hopefully better. Its the player's choice. If you don't agree with your fellow players choice, you have every right to not take their choice, or stop associating with that person for their choice.

Again, my apologies if i offended anyone with the beginning of this thread, and hopefully stated it in a better light.

Originally Posted by Darlakhan

If this was a valid reason, how do we explain cosmetic gear?

You're trying to equate that with character race? Sorry, race is not just cosmetic: it has some gameplay implications. (Limited ones, but still). Also, don't confuse roleplaying itself with the concept of a roleplaying game. You can play an RPG without RPing at all, but the basic concept of the game remains: you are playing as a character, and a character is supposed to be exactly what that word implies: a specific imagined person. Not something to chop and change on a whim.

Its the player's choice.

It's fair to ask whether they should even get that choice.

I have to disagree with this. Based on the fact that its just that: A game.
I do how ever agree with the fact that just because its a role playing game, doesn't mean you have to role play.

I was not however trying to equate cosmetic gear to race change, just posing an example of how role players would explain cosmetic gear in a role playing scenario, since that is one of their main arguements against race change.

There are plenty of people for the idea, and plenty of people against. I keep the belief that because of this, it should still be offered as the people that would like to could, and the people that don't want to, don't have to.

Originally Posted by Darlakhan

I have to disagree with this. Based on the fact that its just that: A game.
I do how ever agree with the fact that just because its a role playing game, doesn't mean you have to role play.

Any RPG ever is just a game, so that argument is far too simplistic. What matters is the fundamental concepts such a game includes, in particular that of the character. That concept exists independently of whether a particular player thinks in RPG terms or not; you can't demand exceptions to that just because it's a game, particularly if making the change you want has gameplay implications (however minor).

I was not however trying to equate cosmetic gear to race change, just posing an example of how role players would explain cosmetic gear in a role playing scenario, since that is one of their main arguements against race change.

Personally, the outfits my characters appear in when they're supposed to be wearing armour have matched item types (leather for leather, etc.), thus avoiding any inconsistency. So, you can't say that the cosmetic system is entirely against the spirit of an RPG in and of itself, it's all down to how you use it.

We have a name change service, but why? Well, sometimes people make dumb mistakes when they "try out" a game and then find themselves immersed in it down the line. That little guy that you called Tinker Bella seemed like a great idea at the time to mess around with. Now you are really getting into the lore or playing with a bunch of friends and somehow it just does not feel so right anymore.

Same goes with race for some players. I have to tell you that although I have no desire to change my dwarf Hunter into another race, Rushgore was miserable at best. I spent a short time there, then left to do 75% of the rest of Great River dreading my return to Rushgore. Hit map, walk 10 feet looking for the spot, get aggro, rince and repeat. Can't see above the brush at all. Same went with parts of Dunland. I can really see some players wishing they could change to a taller race.

Then of course there are the Min/Max players. Same deal as wrong choice (for them) on a time invested character. Obviously they would pay a fee to make their character what they feel it should be.

Bottom line is from a game mechanic standpoint we want to retain players and keep them happy. Why should it be such an opposed issue to strangers if we change our race? Your friends will accept your choice and the opinion of strangers don't matter in the end.

Only time will tell if it sparks enough interest for Turbine to look into it and perhaps implement the requested service. I don't however accept that it breaks lore or spoils the game for others. Re-Roll is not a viable option for those seriously disenchanted with their race.

I have yet to see how this is different from all the previous race-change suggestions.

Lots of arguments here, ranging from the spurious to the furious. However, in the limit, it all comes down to economics. Unless someone can demonstrate that there is a pen-up demad of (literally) thousands of people waiting to be able to do this, it is never going to make it far enough up the priority list to get done.

Turbine is a relatively small development shop. Their philsospohy pretty much has to be Benthamism - the greatest good of the greatest number. Priority is always going to go to that which will increase the happiness of the greatest part of the community.

Originally Posted by Darlakhan

Ok, so there have been tons of forum threads on this subject.

All of you that are against this, you really don't have a valid reason for it, as ideally this would be a pay for service. In other words, YOU Don't have to buy it. So get over yourselves for wanting to limit other players.

As for coding issues, racial traits, etc. Im not a programmer, and im sure the developers have an extremely difficult job. However, there are several other games that offer similar services and they seem to go off with out a hitch. (i.e World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, Aion(not race change, just sex change)) WoW actually has racial abilities, so you can't say it would be impossible.

Its a disparaging thought wanting to change your human guardian to a dwarf guardian, when your level 75 guardian has endgame raid gear, max crafting professions, and bound items you have already spent TP on that can't be gotten again, i.e. Steed of the Guardian. Then someone tells you, tough luck, re-roll.

Whether it would be difficult or not, whether it would cost turbine money or not, if its set up as a pay-to-use service, turbine would only have to do it for the people who actually want it, so other than adding it as an option in the store, and then the actual process of doing it, there isn't a whole lot else to worry about or have done.

I'm a lifetime member, and i still once a month on average purchase turbine points because they usually come out with some pretty cool stuff in the store. Race change is the feature i would like added more than anything.

I understand from reading some of your posts here that you are a very entitled individual and you should get whatever you want, and if anyone disagrees you will respond with "that doesn't matter, I want it!" I am familiar with this mindset, as I have 4 year old twins.

That said -- no. There are a number of reasons for not going down this path --

1 -- Development resources. We are paying for a game that has some very serious issues, such as the fact that an ala cart raid that they are still accepting money for has a ~40% bug out rate for many players. Fix what is there.

2 -- Player requests. We see this request come up every now and then, and there's never a lot of momentum behind it. There seems to be a LOT more player interest in improving the Housing, Hobby, PvMP, Crafting, etc., etc., etc.

3 -- New content. Any game dev will tell you that's what people want most of all, and it drives sales across the board. Apparently even if the new content is unreasonable buggy or outright flawed. Putting a team on race change would sap off of new development.

4 -- Game culture. This is a MMO. The difference between a traditional video game and a multiplayer game is the inclusion of a human element, and the interaction with those characters. The characters in a game world do help shape the culture of the game. I play on multiple servers, and can tell you that even within the shared framework of LotRO there are real differences between the different servers as far as what's common/accepted in glff, assumptions about pug rules, etc. Allowing characters to randomly change race/class on a whim would present a break in the cohesiveness of the community. It would also make life much easier for griefers, loot ninja leaders, etc.

5 -- Stability issues. It might seem cynical, but how many times has Turbine tweaked one thing, only to mangle 3 others? Should all of us be subjected to a year of breakage/update/breakage/hotfix/breakage just so some indecisive players can shuffle their dna about?

6 -- Solution already exists. Roll a character, play it to level 20. Can be done very quickly. If the race doesn't suit, start over.

Quite honestly, Zarador has the best response to this post so far that i have read. Radhruin just seems to want to be argumentative.

Going forward, Lets just post a /for or a /against. That way we can use this sheet as a tally, instead of a grief fest.

I'll deomstrate right after this post.

I'm for this to be implemented.