Thread: 1 handed + shield

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Shield Brother - healing
Blade Brother - offense
Song Brother - power

Yet, that's wrong by your logic of the captain being a support class.

By the Traitline capstones:

Blade Brother: DPS
Shield Brother: Tanking
Song Brother: Healing

What you've said is based off of gameplay, what I've said is based off of examining the traits and skills while ignoring gameplay.

Gameplay should match what the traits and skills say, and if they don't (as is the case here), there's a problem.

That's why I say Song Brother is broken - It does not make sense that the healing capstone would give you a self power restoration tool at the expense of a HoT.

That trade off would make far more sense in a DPS or tanking line, instead of in a healing line.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yet, that's wrong by your logic of the captain being a support class.

By the Traitline capstones:

Blade Brother: DPS
Shield Brother: Tanking
Song Brother: Healing

What you've said is based off of gameplay, what I've said is based off of examining the traits and skills while ignoring gameplay.

Gameplay should match what the traits and skills say, and if they don't (as is the case here), there's a problem.

That's why I say Song Brother is broken - It does not make sense that the healing capstone would give you a self power restoration tool at the expense of a HoT.

That trade off would make far more sense in a DPS or tanking line, instead of in a healing line.

Almagnus, restoring power can be a form of support as well. So I don't understand the first part of your post.

And again, this is another example of you replacing your theory of how things "should be" with how things really are. Rather or not you feel Song Brother should be the best "healing-tool" has nothing to do with my point.

My point is, and the reality is - Song Brother IS a power-tool. That is what it's good at doing. That is why people use it. And until you recognize it for what it really IS - instead of wanting it to be what in theory you think it should be - you are never going to appreciate its strengths as a skill.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

And again, this is another example of you replacing your theory of how things "should be" with how things really are. Rather or not you feel Song Brother should be the best "healing-tool" has nothing to do with my point.

So then, captains are hybrids, and aren't support chars?

You can't have that logic work both ways dude.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

So then, captains are hybrids, and aren't support chars?

You can't have that logic work both ways dude.

I don't even know what you are talking about Almagnus. I didn't even mention the word "hybrid"...

Originally Posted by Jeremi

I don't even know what you are talking about Almagnus. I didn't even mention the word "hybrid"...

Heh, got just a tad too abstract then...

Your logic for why we're support is that the word "Support" is listed as the role on the character creation screen.

I say we're hybrid based on what's observed in gameplay.

Applying that to the derail:

My logic for why Song Brother is a borked healing tool is that it is listed on the Hands of Healing Capstone.

You say it's a Power restoration tool based on what's observed in gameplay.

====
I think we need that Tomato YouTube again....

I made a different topic for this, lets go flame eachother there.

In order to get this one back on track...

People will argue 1h are bad because they use more power.

If your rotation is thus in a 13s period...
Battle Shout
Sure Strike
Devastating Blow
Inspire
Blade of Elendil

optional (wont be up all the time)
Valiant Strike, Shadow's Lament, cutting attack, Grave Wound. Rally Cry, War-Cry, Strength of Will, To Arms. Words of Courage

None of those are actually wasted power. You're using the same amount of power to do less damage, yes. But the goal of 90% of those skills aren't to do damage.

Battle shout, Sure Strike - opens up DB/PA.
DB/PA - Used to open up defeat responses.
Inspire - Used for healing, power restore (basically pays for its own power cost in song or blade bro)
Blade of Elendil.... Basically damage only, power restore from defensive strike is minimal.

Cutting Attack / Grave Wound - damage skills, but these do far more damage per power point than any other because of the bleed effect.

OK having analyzed the purpose of all those skills... If you're running a 2h, we know it's a slower AD than a 1H so some skills are not going to fit in. If you're in a healing setup, with a 2h... You want to heal, so You're probably going to drop the bleeds, and maybe Blade of Elendil. But presumably... You're running with a 2h so that you can do more damage, yet you're dropping the highest damage skills from your rotation? This is why 1h HoH damage is not that much less than 2h HoH damage. (well, provided you don't run out of power)

OR... You're healing, with a 2h... And care about damage, so you include the bleeds... But you're going to have to drop or delay something else, like inspire, or sure strike, or battle shout. Which means you'll end up with less chances to crit, and less rally cries for your group. Or you drop inspire and now you're giving up a group-wide heal or PoT, or both. So if you don't care about maximizing your healing, why are you running HoH?

Anyway... This whole power issue was brought up because Pre-ROI Our damage was so terrible it was basically not worth hitting any of the damage skills. You'd use Blade of Elendil to get the dot on the target then spam defensive strike until BS came off cooldown. Sure Strike was a worthless damage dealer. Grave Wound was a force taunt if you were in LoM (a lot of us were) and didn't have a bleed anyway. Since there was no demand to fit more skills in, it was far better to have a 2h equipped for the higher damage on auto attacks and everything else.

Tanking:
I think the shield ought to justify itself. 1000 armor and 600 crit defense + some assorted stats is nothing to gloss over. Nevertheless, The main reason to use a 2h is more damage = more threat. But if you aren't losing threat, then why would you still use a 2h? Unfortunately... Since both damage (for threat) and survivability are an issue while tanking... You're going to want to spam basically every skill we have at some point, which burns through power like a torch. With a 2H you'd probably achieve the same damage/threat levels using less skills, and therefore less power. So choose your own adventure.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Gameplay should match what the traits and skills say, and if they don't (as is the case here), there's a problem.

I agree there, the game play and the concept behind the skills aren't really matching.

Here's a third way to look at it, looking at each skill in the set:

Shield-brother: supporting the tank
Blade-brother: supporting the damage dealer
Song-brother: supporting the healer

So if you ignore the trait set which copies the effect onto the captain you could theoretically decide which brother skill to use based upon what the group appears to be weak in (useful for PUGs).

Originally Posted by Lohi

I agree there, the game play and the concept behind the skills aren't really matching.

Here's a third way to look at it, looking at each skill in the set:

Shield-brother: supporting the tank
Blade-brother: supporting the damage dealer
Song-brother: supporting the healer

So if you ignore the trait set which copies the effect onto the captain you could theoretically decide which brother skill to use based upon what the group appears to be weak in (useful for PUGs).

Can you copy and paste that post into: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...discussion-mk2?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Heh, got just a tad too abstract then...

Your logic for why we're support is that the word "Support" is listed as the role on the character creation screen.

I say we're hybrid based on what's observed in gameplay.

Applying that to the derail:

My logic for why Song Brother is a borked healing tool is that it is listed on the Hands of Healing Capstone.

You say it's a Power restoration tool based on what's observed in gameplay.

====
I think we need that Tomato YouTube again....

what?! (makes a wry face)

Even by "observed gameplay" we are a support class. This makes no sense. We are a support class because that's what Turbine designed us to be. If you got an issue with that, take it up with turbine - not me.

And I say it's a POWER TOOL because that's what IT IS. Shield Brother is better for healing. Song Brother is better for power. This is an EXTREMELY simple debate - regardless of how hard you to try to complicate it with all this crazyiness about hybrids, abstract observing of gameplay or w/e else. This isn't a a psyche class, and I'm simply calling things as they are.

You can theorize about the way things should be till the cows come home. But I rather deal with reality here, so that's what I"m doing.

Bottom line:
Song Brother is NOT Broken. It's an excellent tool for restoring power, and all your theories and "abstract" thinking doens't change this. So use it on someone when they need power. When you want to heal your tank, use Shield Brother. This isn't rocket science here and there is no need to ponder abstract theories of gameplay and logic to understand my simplistic point.

Originally Posted by Lohi

I agree there, the game play and the concept behind the skills aren't really matching.

Here's a third way to look at it, looking at each skill in the set:

Shield-brother: supporting the tank
Blade-brother: supporting the damage dealer
Song-brother: supporting the healer

So if you ignore the trait set which copies the effect onto the captain you could theoretically decide which brother skill to use based upon what the group appears to be weak in (useful for PUGs).

They match fine. NO where in the Hands of Healing trait line does it say WE CANNOT RESTORE POWER ELSE WE ARE BROKEN AND MAKE NO SENSE! I do like the way you labled the Brother Skills however, though I should point out unless the healer is running low on power Shield Brother is still probably the best support option for healers.

To be honest people are making a whole hill of beans out of literally nothing here. Song Brother has it's place in the Captain's arsenal just like every other brother skill. And there is nothing nonsensical about giving Hands of Healing Captains the option to restore power to themselves through their traitline. It makes perfect sense actually. You aren't going to be healing anyone if you don't have any power afterall.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

I made a different topic for this, lets go flame eachother there.

In order to get this one back on track...

People will argue 1h are bad because they use more power.

If your rotation is thus in a 13s period...
Battle Shout
Sure Strike
Devastating Blow
Inspire
Blade of Elendil

optional (wont be up all the time)
Valiant Strike, Shadow's Lament, cutting attack, Grave Wound. Rally Cry, War-Cry, Strength of Will, To Arms. Words of Courage

None of those are actually wasted power. You're using the same amount of power to do less damage, yes. But the goal of 90% of those skills aren't to do damage.

Battle shout, Sure Strike - opens up DB/PA.
DB/PA - Used to open up defeat responses.
Inspire - Used for healing, power restore (basically pays for its own power cost in song or blade bro)
Blade of Elendil.... Basically damage only, power restore from defensive strike is minimal.

Cutting Attack / Grave Wound - damage skills, but these do far more damage per power point than any other because of the bleed effect.

OK having analyzed the purpose of all those skills... If you're running a 2h, we know it's a slower AD than a 1H so some skills are not going to fit in. If you're in a healing setup, with a 2h... You want to heal, so You're probably going to drop the bleeds, and maybe Blade of Elendil. But presumably... You're running with a 2h so that you can do more damage, yet you're dropping the highest damage skills from your rotation? This is why 1h HoH damage is not that much less than 2h HoH damage. (well, provided you don't run out of power)

OR... You're healing, with a 2h... And care about damage, so you include the bleeds... But you're going to have to drop or delay something else, like inspire, or sure strike, or battle shout. Which means you'll end up with less chances to crit, and less rally cries for your group. Or you drop inspire and now you're giving up a group-wide heal or PoT, or both. So if you don't care about maximizing your healing, why are you running HoH?

Anyway... This whole power issue was brought up because Pre-ROI Our damage was so terrible it was basically not worth hitting any of the damage skills. You'd use Blade of Elendil to get the dot on the target then spam defensive strike until BS came off cooldown. Sure Strike was a worthless damage dealer. Grave Wound was a force taunt if you were in LoM (a lot of us were) and didn't have a bleed anyway. Since there was no demand to fit more skills in, it was far better to have a 2h equipped for the higher damage on auto attacks and everything else.

Tanking:
I think the shield ought to justify itself. 1000 armor and 600 crit defense + some assorted stats is nothing to gloss over. Nevertheless, The main reason to use a 2h is more damage = more threat. But if you aren't losing threat, then why would you still use a 2h? Unfortunately... Since both damage (for threat) and survivability are an issue while tanking... You're going to want to spam basically every skill we have at some point, which burns through power like a torch. With a 2H you'd probably achieve the same damage/threat levels using less skills, and therefore less power. So choose your own adventure.

ok I skimmed this Dune and over-all it was a pretty fair analysis, though I would take some small issues with a few things.

Utlimately if you rather use a 1 hander and shield that is perfectly your right. I prefer 2-handers, as they do more damage and consume less power - but you seem to do ok for yourself judging by some of your earlier posts so I will try to be more accepting of the idea of a Captain using a 1-hander. There has to be something there of value you appreciate, and I recognize that.

Perhaps also it has to do with the way I build my Captain. I have a high critical chance and a pretty high crititcal magnitude, so it's possible that factors in to why I like my 2 hander so much. I land 3k+ criticals often with my Great Sword, and even my auto attacks can land for 1k sometimes. And that's with only one crystal on my sword. So perhaps that is a factor as well, and the way a Captain concentrates his stats can probably be a defining factor on this one.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Utlimately if you rather use a 1 hander and shield that is perfectly your right. I prefer 2-handers, as they do more damage and consume less power - but you seem to do ok for yourself judging by some of your earlier posts so I will try to be more accepting of the idea of a Captain using a 1-hander. There has to be something there of value you appreciate, and I recognize that.

I'm just putting the information out there, and I wrote a long post because I was bored + wanted to un-derail the thread.... Which is probably pointless since its 15 pages long and nobody reads anything over 3. But I tried.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You do realize that these parsers you keep fighting are responsible for at least two major shifts in what's "acceptable" for a captain from the raid leaders:

• The shift from MoM HoH Healbot to the proto-FB LoM because the healing was demonstrated to be about the same (thanks to a 6 second RC), and the proto-FB LoM helped raid DPS
• Again with Blade Brother, the non-capstone builds, and LtC, because healing was demonstrated to be about the same, but DPS was also demonstrated to be significantly increased (in several cases, at least double from the LoM or HoH builds, if not more)

That the parsers have actually helped this class more than they have hurt it - and I'm certain there are other classes where that holds true, also.

This is a change that's best to roll with it, cause regardless how much we fight, parsers aren't going away - we lost that fight when Turbine opened up the Lua API to the combat logs.

You don't need parser for that...

Blade-Bro boost dps and inspire from it is a 50% of each shield-bro and song-bro; no matter the spec a Cappy should cast that buff on the higher dps of his group whenever it's about for a DPS sprint, along with OBS.
Song-Bro is a Power Managment tool, every healing class got one, also To Arm increase Outgoing healing which is better then the incoming healing from SoW(Shield-bro) + legacies for a steady raid healing.

Shield-bro + SoW legacies is a good think to get for a cappy on a buff stick LI, in Burst AoE damage situation; the To Arm + Fellowship-Bro damage redux is more usefull for that than the outgoing healing.

All skills got usefulness and if you are a cappy that always only use Shield-bro, well then you are lame, not lame in the insulting sense, lame in an allegorical sense of sacritying 2 arms for one leg.

The key is to learn to switch when necessary...
a hunter is out of power set blade-bro and him and inspire him.
the mini is getting out of power set, song bro on him.
the tankis getting some damage burst, set shield bro on him, the crit defense gonna help against that.

and the skilled cappy know to time the switch with the SoW's or To Arm's CD.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

and the skilled cappy know to time the switch with the SoW's or To Arm's CD.

If what you're referring to is using the SoW out of one XBro, and the To Arms out of the other with FB - that's bordeline exploiting.

Why?

When you XBro someone without FB, and you end the XBro, it pulls the buffs. When have an XBro with FB, and the XBro ends, FB leaves the buffs on party members that ARE NOT the captain or the XBro target. That functionality doesn't seem like it's working as intended, and seems like an exploit to me.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I'm a bit mystified. Not THAT experienced in the moors yet, but I like Blade Brother best at this point. Shield Brother's main virtue is the SOW (the inspire HOT is nice, but not enough to keep folks up in moors). Unfortunately, the creeps tend to beat on the healers, rather than the tank or target you choose for SOW. Do you SOW the healer??? Song Brother is very nice if you are in a power drain situation (files, standard, etc). But Blade Brother is good. Sometimes the key to a fight is bursting up the DPS, dropping a healer quickly, etc. And the extra DPS push is quite helpful, the modest heals and power restore are likewise good... A bladebrothered champ in a blender situation is great, and a blade brothered hunter when things are ranged or a creep is trying to flee is likewise good...

If I can afford to use Shield brother, yes I will use it on the Healer. However most of the time I can't because I'm up against WL's/Defilers. A WL banner cuts your power pool by 1k and what little ICPR you have pretty much in half. Defiler flies will literally wipe your group if you don't have song brother inspire ticking in conjunction with Rallying Cry NFW.

As for bursting people, freeps can do that without blade brother quite easily. And if you want to take down a healer RK/Champ -inc healing debuffs go much further than Blade brother. Basically if your dps need blade brother to kill things, you may want to look for new damage dealers. The Power/Morale restore is too small to counter flies or heal through damage, so the skill all round sucks for the moors.

I actually use Shield brother most for duoing since I'm least likely to get power drained in that situation, and it lets me keep up whoever I'm running with quite easily (usually an RK). Remember the To-Arms stacks additively with audacity so your target ends up with -45% incoming damage before mitigation. Song brother if the group size is 4+ and especially if there is another healer in my group. Some captains will exclusively use Song brother when duoing and opt to get rid of fellowship brother in favor of IDOME.

I don't raid often but I'd imagine Song brother would be best there as well again due to flies. But then it doesn't really matter what you use in a raid since it all comes down to numbers, which is why I hate such fights. I never use OB in the moors unless solo, and to be honest you will get more mileage out of saving a healer or friend with SoTD, which is why I never leave home without it. Remember SotD + Audacity = -105% incoming damage, I.E. everything gets absorbed.