Thread: 1 handed + shield

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

This is probably best explained by first showing an image:


Notice what I boxed for each of the capstones?

Ideally, each of the brother skills, as listed on the capstone, should be the no-brainer choice for that line - at least, if everything was actually working as intended (hint: it's not).

The assessment of the Brother skills as RoR nears?
Self-Shield Brother dramatically improves LoM captain tank survivability, so that was a huge buff to that trait line. A LoM captain will run Shield Brother all the time, and if they don't, they risk going **SQUISH**.

LtC got a pretty good DPS buff from the self-Blade Brother. A LtC captain will run blade brother the vast majority of the time, with the option to sacrifice DPS for group survivability (which fits with how the class works).

Then there's HoH - I would wager that most captains you speak to would say that Shield Brother is a better healing tool than Song Brother, and because of that, the majority of HoH captains are not getting a self Brother. I mean if we're all basically saying:



Instead of 100% (or at least 90% of the time) like the captains would say about LoM/Shield Brother and LtC/Blade Brother, then something is wrong with Song Brother.

Thus, if LoM and LtC got buffs from the self brother skills, and HoH effectively didn't (as observed by play, because Shield Brother is a better healing XBro than Song Brother) - in effect, HoH stagnated, while LtC and LoM were buffed. So two went up, while one stayed the same. Or put a different way, one got nerfed and the others didn't.

lol... why did I let myself get suckered into this. Almangus, we are starting to go in circles again - and you are starting to print pictures instead of charts now trying to prove things that were never in question.

I already said LoM and LtC Captains use Shield-Brother and Blade-Brother more often than HoH Captains use Song Brother. I've ALREADY recognized that. So why you are printing pictures and going off on some long post trying to prove a point that I never disagreed with? It's confusing to say the least. And considering we've had this discussion a zillion times already, you should deffinitely know by now that I think Shield Brother is the better healing tool. I've only said that on these forums an infinity amount of times.

And as I said in the PREVIOUS post, just because LtC and LoM Captains use Shield-Brother and Blade-Brother skills more often than HoH Captains use Song Brother doesn't mean Song Brother was a "nerf". Because it WASN'T, and your post does nothing to prove that it was. The addition of Song Brother did NOTHING to harm HoH Captains. That's just the simple fact. Therefore it can't accuately be described as a "nerf". It did nothing but good things for this class, giving us a powerful new power tool that we can use to rapidly restore our power when the situation calls.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Therein lies the problem - because you have trait-line tunnel vision, this issue is not as obvious to you as it is to captains that switch between HoH, LtC, and LoM fairly frequently.

Edit:
And Turbine needs to do a text trim on the LoM capstone... talk about redundancy XD

/sigh We've gone over this before as well. Again - I play HoH Captain because that is the trait-line I enjoy and want to play. That's called getting my money's worth Almagnus, not "trait-line tunnel vision". If you like playing all 3 trait lines good for you - but I don't.

And to be honest just the fact I play HoH exclusively actually puts me in a BETTER position not worse in regards to being able to tell what has "nerfed" this class and what hasn't. And your suggestion that because I don't play other trait-lines that somehow puts me in a lesser position to be able to judge rather or not certain skills "nerfed" the actual class I always DO play is pretty silly, and makes no sense to me.

Song Brother was not a "nerf" to HoH Almangus, that's just the bottom line here - and nothing you have said even remotely suggests that it was. Your whole argument is basically some comparative analysis that because LoM or LtC Captains use Shield-Brother and Blade-Brother more often than HoH Captains use Song Brother that makes it a "nerf", and that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

No.. that was a silly idea. everyone already knows what the capstones do to FB.

Ideally according to who? According to you, basically. Not really according to Turbine, or myself. There have been no votes universe-wide of captains on this. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not fact.

The other two traitlines were improved by the changes to fellowship brother, but so was HoH.

I can restore my power and reduce my power costs with song brother. That's a life-saving ability. At the same time, I can go shield brother and get drastically improved healing exactly where I want it. If anything I'd argue song brother is a boost to HoH, because you get basically the full benefit of two of the fellowship brother skills. Shield brother on the tank, or power restore on yourself. And while power restore is not a direct healing buff, it sure does look good when you're out of power.

LtC technically works the same way, but the benefits of having MoW traited vs not aren't nearly as significant as the bonuses you get from being in HoH, or the bonus you get from LoM. Can I argue that LtC was nerfed, then?

Explain why a HoH capstone build not having a self-Brother most of the time, when the other two capstone builds DO, is working as intended.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Explain why a HoH capstone build not having a self-Brother most of the time, when the other two capstone builds DO, is working as intended.

Almagnus, your belief rather or not "it's working as intended" is different from calling something a "nerf". That's the difference you aren't understanding here.

We're not devs, so we can't tell you for certain rather or not Song Brother has developed as they intended. But what we can tell you with certainty is that it was NOT a nerf to our class.

All it did was give us a powerful new tool to restore our power when we need it - and there is nothing "harmful" about that, and did not "nerf" us in any way what-so-ever.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

We're not devs, so we can't tell you for certain rather or not Song Brother has developed as they intended. But what we can tell you with certainty is that it was NOT a nerf to our class.

By the same logic that the captain is a support class because it's what's listed on the character creation screen, Song Brother should be the best healing Brother skill because it's explicitly named on the capstone for a traitline centered on healing - so all captains running HoH should have a self Song Brother up the vast majority of the time.

Yet, going by gameplay, Shield Brother is a better healing tool than Song Brother.

Thus, Song Brother is not working as intended, because the gameplay is not matching the design.

While we are not devs, all players in an MMO are testers - because an MMO is, by design, perpetually in Beta testing. We all have the ability to spot if something is not working as intended, and /bug it. Whether or not you choose to use that ability is another matter entirely.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

The 1h only uses more power because you're firing off more skills than with a 2h... In general that's kind of a good thing.

The optimal rotation in a 13s period (duration of battle shout ) is presumably:

Battle shout, sure strike, db/pa, inspire, blade of elendil
And then... every 20-30s do cutting attack/grave wound. Or valiant strike when you're HoH. And throw in war-cry, to arms, strength of will, rally cry, and WoC in there somewhere.

Turns out... a lot of the power problems in HoH are from not having 3red for the -melee skills power cost. 3/3 of b/r turns out to be amazing for power consumption. Also... the -melee skills power cost legacy is priceless imo.

Also nice to have you back on crick... If you feel like doing some light raiding to get gear unlocked you'll have to let me know.

Thanks Dune, I'll keep that in mind. I'll still be out of the country for a few more weeks, so when I get back to play, I'll have some catching up to do. I need a new rig to do raids, so pending current career path options abroad, I'll have to stick to smaller group content and covering the Great River QP on my laptop.

The kinship I'm in is very casual-friendly, and I've used a LoM build for skirm raids. It feels so great to be able to maximize the buffs on everyone, plus put full shield-brother benefits on our tank and myself. (+20%inc healing, +300crit def, -15%inc dmg for 30sec on a 1min CD).

Since LoM is my main build, my 1H for HoH needs more fleshing out, but I definitely have the -power cost legacies there for power management. Interesting to hear about integrating the 3red trait bonus in a HoH build also. I'll have to give it a try when I get back to playing around with trait setups again.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Explain why a HoH capstone build not having a self-Brother most of the time, when the other two capstone builds DO, is working as intended.

I'd agree that the other 2 capstones have obvious synergy with their self-reflected brother type. Song Brother might be used by any captain as power restoration. Seems to me like the design intent was that Song Brother is the "healing" brother skill, rather than the power restore skill. But as it is inferior to the Shield Brother for the single target healing that dominates most group runs (tank SHOULD be taking most damage), it doesn't work out that way. And even for group healing, the fact that Song Brother has no HOT counterbalances the To Arm healing buff at least somewhat...

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

By the same logic that the captain is a support class because it's what's listed on the character creation screen, Song Brother should be the best healing Brother skill because it's explicitly named on the capstone for a traitline centered on healing - so all captains running HoH should have a self Song Brother up the vast majority of the time.

Yet, going by gameplay, Shield Brother is a better healing tool than Song Brother.

Thus, Song Brother is not working as intended, because the gameplay is not matching the design.

That's your theory Almagnus about how things should be, and you are entitled to that - but that doesn't mean Song Brother was a "nerf".

Song Brother wasn't designed to emphasize healing. That's just now how the Devs designed it. They designed Song Brother to be a Power Tool - because that's what it's good at, restoring and salvaging power. And it can be incredibly useful to HoH Captains because I use it often to restore my power when I need to. And I personally would never describe a skill that is extremely useful to me as a failure in game design and certainly not as a "nerf".

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Song Brother wasn't designed to emphasize healing. That's just now how the Devs designed it. They designed Song Brother to be a Power Tool - because that's what it's good at, restoring and salvaging power. And it can be incredibly useful to HoH Captains because I use it often to restore my power when I need to. And I personally would never describe a skill that is extremely useful to me as a failure in game design.

Why is Song Brother: To Arms +25% Outgoing Healing?

Why does Song Brother have -5% healing threat reduction?

Why is Song Brother: Strength of Will -10% Healing Power Costs?

Why would a power restoration tool need the above healing related stuff?

Song Brother is a failure as a healing tool - which is what the HoH capstone explicitly designates it as.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Why is Song Brother: To Arms +25% outgoing healing?

Why does Song Brother have a healing threat reduction to it?

Why is Song Brother: Strength of Will -Healing Power Costs?

Why would a power restoration tool need the following healing related attributes?

Song Brother is a failure as a healing tool - which is what the HoH capstone explicitly designates it as.

It's not a "healing tool" Almagnus. It's a "power tool". That's the simple answer to your question. And as a "power-tool" it's deffinitely NOT a failure.

The 25% extra healing on To Arms is useful because you can use it while you are regaining power with Inspire to help make up for the healing losses you incurr. That's what I use it for anyway.

Your problem is you are letting theory replace reality. It's simply NOT designed as a dominant healing-tool. It's there to recover power. That's what it's good at, and in that it without doubt succeeds and is NOT a failure. And as a HoH captain you have the added benefit of being able to use it on yourself - and that's a nice little advantage we have, and is certainly not a "nerf".

I always used one-hand weapon because 2h weapons are too slow and executing melee skills that are most useful at buffing or healing (inspire, BoE, VS, DS, SS, kick).
the only time I use 2H is for Dpsing or tanking( since the change brought to capstone).

Waiting for the strike to execute with 2h, when you have to cry or cast a heal, in a dire situation, always delay that later one or cancel that previous.

Also Stats of Shield are much better for healing than LI 2hander stats. since those are shared with minstrel; and since to heal it's more important to boost your stats for outgoing heal then just getting a bigger DPS weapon.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Why is Song Brother: To Arms +25% Outgoing Healing?

Why does Song Brother have -5% healing threat reduction?

Why is Song Brother: Strength of Will -10% Healing Power Costs?

Why would a power restoration tool need the above healing related stuff?

Song Brother is a failure as a healing tool - which is what the HoH capstone explicitly designates it as.

Because when you equip the capstone legendary trait of HoH you get the full benefit to yourself of your song brother skills and in raid you place Song-bro on a healer(specially mini who need power) and both get the full benefits of all those skills: inspire, SoW, Song-bro passive buff, to Arm.

in that way you'll never need power ever.

what is sad is that you don't get the benefit of song-bro on yourself whatever x-bro skill you are using.

of course using Shield-bro SoW+ Legacy increase the healing on your tank but you lost power efficiency that you will have to compensate with fate... I stack only might and my power is assured by inspire and Song-bro buff.

I still switch sometime to shield bro when I'm full power and know that big incoming aoe damage are coming, to take advantage of To Arm(shield bro) along with the buff SoW incoming healing (fellwoship bro) still whenever I go below 50% power I just cast song bro on whatever fellow who got power starvation and bring his and mine back up that way.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Explain why a HoH capstone build not having a self-Brother most of the time, when the other two capstone builds DO, is working as intended.

Most cappy I see HoH without song-bro always got power starving, and if not they stack fate and sacrifice might or vitality for that.
HoH with song-bro can focus on getting might and tactical mastery stat and crit without taking into account the ICPR or fate stats so that's an advantage when you are meant to heal, to heal more with each skill and never get OOP.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yet, going by gameplay, Shield Brother is a better healing tool than Song Brother.

Have people measured it? Song brother does give you more healing output and lots of power savings (my captain is very often short of power, something you don't want on a healer). I suspect the difference is really who and how many you are healing. If you heal only the tank then shield brother looks best overall; but if you're healing an entire fellowship who are taking damage then maybe song brother helps out more?

It would be nice though if they modified it somewhat. You put any brother skill on someone and then you get the capstone bonus on yourself. Ie, shield-brother on tank but you get the effects of song-brother if you're HoH.

If Turbine modeled all of the Inspires after Blade Brother's, then Song Brother would be where it should be (following what the HoH capstone says). Ironically, this was even pointed out as a "devs, what the frak?" moment during the RoI Beta.

Originally Posted by Lohi

It would be nice though if they modified it somewhat. You put any brother skill on someone and then you get the capstone bonus on yourself. Ie, shield-brother on tank but you get the effects of song-brother if you're HoH.

That would make Blade Brother the dominant XBro then....

LoM? Blade Bro a DPSer, you get Self-Shield Bro AND Blade Bro FB stuff....

HoH? Blade Bro a DPSer, you get Self-Song Bro AND Blade Bro FB stuff....

LtC? Your DPS remains high, even if you Shield Bro the group to help w/ AoE damage, or pick up Song Bro...

I think what throws the other ones out of whack is the legacy on Strength of Will healing. That legacy should affect all of them, or none of them.

That legacy definitely is an issue, but fixing it is not as straightforward as it seems.

The other two SoWs are -5% Attack Duration and -10% Healing Skill Power Cost. If the legacy affected those, we could get -20% Attack Duration and -25% Healing Skill Power Cost. Great, right?

Except... The -20% Attack Duration is going to stack with War-Cry for -30% Attack Duration, on top of any other buffs (including self-buffs DPS classes might have) that might exist for that. I have no idea whether that would be overpowered or not, but even if not I suspect we're going to be past the point at which animation length prevents any further reduction in Attack Duration. Ok, not a big deal, but not as helpful as you might think.

And, more importantly... HoH Captains are not running out of power anyway, and definitely not while running Song-Brother. So -25% Healing Skill Power Cost is functionally the same as -10% Healing Skill Power Cost. It does absolutely nothing to change the actual problem with Song-Brother, which is that it doesn't increase single-target healing output enough to make it a valid choice over Shield-Brother for healing Captains.

As much as I hate to even breathe the words, I think a nerf to the Strength of Will Healing legacy would do more to address the problem than making it extend to all three SoWs. Which would be worse than just leaving the status quo in place, because we'd be a weaker class for it in two roles.

That said, an increase to the Song-Brother To Arms base effect could help. Looking at the raw numbers for healing over time... Currently, with a fully-upgraded To Arms Duration legacy, Song-Brother To Arms is worth the same as 12.5% permanent incoming healing on the whole group. Increasing the base effect of Song-Brother To Arms from 25% to 40% would bring the equivalent of 20% permanent incoming healing, matching the fully-upgraded Shield-Brother Strength of Will.

The above doesn't account for the morale HoT provided by Shield-Brother Inspire or the damage reduction provided by Shield-Brother To Arms, but at least it would make Song-Brother more attractive in the healing role than it is now. A smaller increase from 25% to 30-35% could be justified to compensate for the fact that the additional healing from Song-Brother applies to all heals, whether within the Captain's fellowship or in the second fellowship in a raid, whereas the Shield-Brother extra healing only applies to the actively -Brothered target.

Someone PLEASE tell me in what raid power is even remotely close to being an issue? In ToO NO ONE has power issues. Period.

Originally Posted by DreagonMK

Someone PLEASE tell me in what raid power is even remotely close to being an issue? In ToO NO ONE has power issues. Period.

BG Lieutenant?

Pretty much the only time you'd ever really want to use it on yourself is when you're solo-healing a 6man or 3man and are out of power. Or the moors; it's pure gold in PvP. Skills do have applications outside of raiding.

On the offchance you have a terrible lore-master etc. it's a nice skill, but restoring power to others is something you can do w/ or w/o capstone so it's kind of irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

Pretty much the only time you'd ever really want to use it on yourself is when you're solo-healing a 6man or 3man and are out of power. Or the moors; it's pure gold in PvP. Skills do have applications outside of raiding.

Use Song Brother in PvMP?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA

Oh wait, you're seriously suggesting using Song Brother over Blade Brother?

**facepalm**

Originally Posted by DreagonMK

Someone PLEASE tell me in what raid power is even remotely close to being an issue? In ToO NO ONE has power issues. Period.

Dreagon, maybe in your world but not in our's

I can't tell you how many times power has been an issue when I raid. Especially on some of the longer fights like Saruman - I see a LOT of players struggle with power.

Just because you raid with people who are good at conserving or manging their power - trust me, there are a lot of players out there who DO have power issues. I meet them all the time lol

Originally Posted by Lohi

Have people measured it? Song brother does give you more healing output and lots of power savings (my captain is very often short of power, something you don't want on a healer). I suspect the difference is really who and how many you are healing. If you heal only the tank then shield brother looks best overall; but if you're healing an entire fellowship who are taking damage then maybe song brother helps out more?

It would be nice though if they modified it somewhat. You put any brother skill on someone and then you get the capstone bonus on yourself. Ie, shield-brother on tank but you get the effects of song-brother if you're HoH.

Lohi, I "kinda" get what you are saying - but tanks are the ones who receive the most healing, or at they least they "should" be the ones. And since that is where the lion's share of healing will be focused, w/e tool helps you heal the tank the most is going to be the best from a pure healing perspective in my opinion.

I don't disagree with Almagnus when he says Shield Brother is the better healing tool. It is, and by quite a bit if you ask me. A Hands of Healing Captain using Shield Brother is going to be able to keep his/her tank alive through damage a HoH Captain using Song Brother wouldn't be able to.

But I don't even think Song Brother wasn't designed to be the best healing tool. Yes, it has a few healing modifcations, but it's main asset is restoring power - that's what it's actually good at doing so that's probably what it was designed to do. I just don't think it was meant to replace Shield Brother as the best brother skill for healing.

Besides, if HoH were meant to run around with Song Brother up all the time why does the Menestaid set have so much power-related stats on it? Why are there HoH specific traits that increase the healing effect on Inspire?

So I don't really think there is anything wrong with Song Brother. I believe it does what it was meant to do. The problem here is people were expecting it to be the new Shield Brother and it isn't. Besides, I like the strategic variance of being able to use different brother skills as the situation demands and not be guided into using the same Brother Skill all the time based off my trait-line. Strategy is good - and I use all three of my brother skills frequently based off what it is I'm doing. So that says to me they did a good job at designing them.

And sorry, I kind of rambled on here and a lot of this had nothing to do with what you said lol

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Most cappy I see HoH without song-bro always got power starving, and if not they stack fate and sacrifice might or vitality for that.
HoH with song-bro can focus on getting might and tactical mastery stat and crit without taking into account the ICPR or fate stats so that's an advantage when you are meant to heal, to heal more with each skill and never get OOP.

I've actually tried that before Jean.

I neglected all of my fate and power stats, relied soely on Song Brother as my source of power and stacked the living #### out of might and tactical mastery to see if the extra healing it provided could make up for the loss of Shield Brother. It didn't, and Shield Brother still provided much better healing for my tank. It is a good strat if you want to provide medium healing while boosting your offense significantly though. HoH can put out some pretty nice dps using this strat.

Bottom line though is no amount of might or tactical mastery you can replace your power with is going to make up for the loss of losing the HoT from Inspire and the 20% extra to your healing from Strength of Will. When it comes to healing your tank - Shield Brother is just superior in every way and can't be effectively replaced for that purpose.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

But Song Brother wasn't designed to be the best healing tool. Yes, it has a few healing modifcations, but it's main asset is restoring power - that's what it's good at doing and that's obviously what it is designed to do. It just wasn't designed to replace Shield Brother as the best brother skill for healing.

The only reason you can claim "power regeneration" is because of Song Brother: Inspire. If Inspire had a HoT component, Song Brother would arguably be the better healing... until FB entered the scene - at which point Song Brother clearly becomes the weakest of the three XBros.

And I know from my LtC experiences that it most certainly does not need Song Brother for power regeneration - and again, you would realize this too if you played something other than HoH on occasion.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Besides, if HoH were meant to run around with Song Brother up all the time why does the Menestaid set have so much power-related stats on it?

It's not just Menestaid, look at all the ToO sets. The difference with Menestaid is that Turbine realized they had screwed up HoH and duct taped it by giving it two HoH specific set bonuses (compared to one for each of LoM and LtC on the other two armor sets), in addition to moving power restoration away from the 5 set bonus and into the set pieces themselves. All that fate and ICPR on the Menestaid pieces is proof that Turbine realized they royally screwed up HoH for RoI, and tried to fix it on the HoH centric ToO set.

This class has had power problems for a very, very long time, which is also part of the reason we got PoTs on two of our XBro skills. It's a problem that needs to go away, or at least have someone from Turbine explain why that design decision was made and stuck to all these years.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Why are there HoH specific traits that increase the healing effect on Inspire?

You're looking at a relic from the past when there was ONLY Shield Brother, and only one copy of Inspire (and Shield Brother had Blade Brother's To Arms on it). In the old days, you'd put SB on whatever you want to heal, then fire up the healing rotation of WoC/Inpsire/<skill>, and produce a ton of healing because you were effectively forcing Inspire to tick faster than it would normally (at least, that's what I think was going on). Running around with 650 will/fate made the power problems non-existant (that was a very desirable healing build at that time because we were essentially heavy metal tactical classes).

And here's why I say the Inspire change nerfed HoH: when Inspire's cooldown increased from 3 seconds to 15, it made that rotation impossible. There went one really good healing tool from the arsenal - oh well.

When Song Brother - the brother skill we were getting sold on as the one for the Healing line - did not have a HoT to it, the writing was pretty clear that Song Brother was not going to fulfill that role, so HoH would essentially be a slightly nerfed version of what it was pre-RoI, whereas LoM's tanking ability was going to be improved many, many times over (and has since been demonstrated that a captain can be a competent tank for some content), and LtC was getting enough tweaks to give it back the edge it had before the weapon normalization, and huge halberd crits and devs ruled it's day.

And as you see by the builds on the board, HoH (sadly) got left in the dust. Without Song Brother being the undisputed healing XBro, HoH is healing lower than it really should be, and while I have had a lot of fun in LtC throughout RoI, I do miss the days when I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could take any group into a 3 man and walk out the other side with loot and people amazed at how well the captain could heal. I miss knowing that I could go into a 6 man as HoH, and have the mini complement me on the healing, and tell me that they ran War Speech throughout most of the instance.

It's just painful to be in HoH now, especially knowing what it once was, because I am keenly aware of how weak it feels now.

And Song Brother is a major part of the HoH weakness.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Use Song Brother in PvMP?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA

Oh wait, you're seriously suggesting using Song Brother over Blade Brother?

**facepalm**

are you... actually serious..?

are all the wl's and defilers on your server rank 2?
power drain and power regen is a huge issue.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

The only reason you can claim "power regeneration" is because of Song Brother: Inspire. If Inspire had a HoT component, Song Brother would arguably be the better healing... until FB entered the scene - at which point Song Brother clearly becomes the weakest of the three XBros.

And I know from my LtC experiences that it most certainly does not need Song Brother for power regeneration - and again, you would realize this too if you played something other than HoH on occasion..

ok Almagnus, jsut a note but I'm getting kind of tired of your constant jabs at me over the fact I choose to only play HoH. Stop it please. Nor did I ever say LtC captains needed Song brother for power regeneration. So I have no idea why you even said that.

And Song Brother is not weak in terms of "power regeneration". It's very good at that. No other Brother Skill comes even close to matching the power restoration Song Brother is capable of.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

It's not just Menestaid, look at all the ToO sets. The difference with Menestaid is that Turbine realized they had screwed up HoH and duct taped it by giving it two HoH specific set bonuses (compared to one for each of LoM and LtC on the other two armor sets), in addition to moving power restoration away from the 5 set bonus and into the set pieces themselves. All that fate and ICPR on the Menestaid pieces is proof that Turbine realized they royally screwed up HoH for RoI, and tried to fix it on the HoH centric ToO set.

This class has had power problems for a very, very long time, which is also part of the reason we got PoTs on two of our XBro skills. It's a problem that needs to go away, or at least have someone from Turbine explain why that design decision was made and stuck to all these years...

I don't have power problems on my Captain Almagnus. Most power problems Captains experience are of their own making, refusing to give up other stats in exchange for ICPR-related attributes.

It's not a class issue, it's a player one.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You're looking at a relic from the past when there was ONLY Shield Brother, and only one copy of Inspire (and Shield Brother had Blade Brother's To Arms on it). In the old days, you'd put SB on whatever you want to heal, then fire up the healing rotation of WoC/Inpsire/<skill>, and produce a ton of healing because you were effectively forcing Inspire to tick faster than it would normally (at least, that's what I think was going on). Running around with 650 will/fate made the power problems non-existant (that was a very desirable healing build at that time because we were essentially heavy metal tactical classes).

And here's why I say the Inspire change nerfed HoH: when Inspire's cooldown increased from 3 seconds to 15, it made that rotation impossible. There went one really good healing tool from the arsenal - oh well.

When Song Brother - the brother skill we were getting sold on as the one for the Healing line - did not have a HoT to it, the writing was pretty clear that Song Brother was not going to fulfill that role, so HoH would essentially be a slightly nerfed version of what it was pre-RoI, whereas LoM's tanking ability was going to be improved many, many times over (and has since been demonstrated that a captain can be a competent tank for some content), and LtC was getting enough tweaks to give it back the edge it had before the weapon normalization, and huge halberd crits and devs ruled it's day.

And as you see by the builds on the board, HoH (sadly) got left in the dust. Without Song Brother being the undisputed healing XBro, HoH is healing lower than it really should be, and while I have had a lot of fun in LtC throughout RoI, I do miss the days when I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could take any group into a 3 man and walk out the other side with loot and people amazed at how well the captain could heal. I miss knowing that I could go into a 6 man as HoH, and have the mini complement me on the healing, and tell me that they ran War Speech throughout most of the instance.

It's just painful to be in HoH now, especially knowing what it once was, because I am keenly aware of how weak it feels now.

And Song Brother is a major part of the HoH weakness.

I didn't read all of this... but I'll just sum it up by saying:

Song Brother is a POWER tool. If you look at it as such it is satisfactory.

HoH is NOT weak. This class is stronger than it ever has been. You are simply wrong IMHO. I constantly impress ministrels with my healing, and I heal 6 mans by myself frequently all the time. If you find HoH "painful" to play now, it's probably due to other factors not related to class design ^^

Originally Posted by Jeremi

But I don't even think Song Brother wasn't designed to be the best healing tool. Yes, it has a few healing modifcations, but it's main asset is restoring power

You get three modified skills with song brother, and only one of them restores power and it has a long cooldown. The others conserve power. I look at the 2 minute buffs as the important part of these skills as they can be kept on all the time.

Originally Posted by Lohi

You get three modified skills with song brother, and only one of them restores power and it has a long cooldown. The others conserve power. I look at the 2 minute buffs as the important part of these skills as they can be kept on all the time.

Lohi the most powerful effect Song Brother has that restores power is not on a long cool down. Inspire can be used something like every 15 seconds, and the buff it gives can be kept up constantly 100% of the time.

And there is no doubt in my mind that its most potent buff is indeed its power restoration. The 10% less power consumption effect pales by comparison. So if you are going to argue otherwise - we are going to come no where close to agreeing on this one.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And as you see by the builds on the board, HoH (sadly) got left in the dust. Without Song Brother being the undisputed healing XBro, HoH is healing lower than it really should be, and while I have had a lot of fun in LtC throughout RoI, I do miss the days when I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could take any group into a 3 man and walk out the other side with loot and people amazed at how well the captain could heal. I miss knowing that I could go into a 6 man as HoH, and have the mini complement me on the healing, and tell me that they ran War Speech throughout most of the instance.

It's just painful to be in HoH now, especially knowing what it once was, because I am keenly aware of how weak it feels now.

And Song Brother is a major part of the HoH weakness.

You've been whining about HoH for awhile, and i'm not going to bite. Go make another qq thread that we need to heal like minstrels.

I regularly run Foundry solo-healing even with pugs. As long as the tank isn't an idiot the group does fine. RoF is basically in the same ballpark, but the tank can't be a moron, or get excessive poison dots (requires a decent dps)

Are you having trouble healing 3 man's? I'm sure there's a guide online to help you.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

You've been whining about HoH for awhile, and i'm not going to bite. Go make another qq thread that we need to heal like minstrels.

I regularly run Foundry solo-healing even with pugs. As long as the tank isn't an idiot the group does fine. RoF is basically in the same ballpark, but the tank can't be a moron, or get excessive poison dots (requires a decent dps)

Are you having trouble healing 3 man's? I'm sure there's a guide online to help you.

I agree.

There is nothing "weak" about Captain healing these days. For example I heal Roots of Fangorn by myself all the time, and unless the group is a complete trainwreck it's a cakewalk. 3 mans even more so, and it's not unususal for me to heal those with loremaster or runekeeper tanks in paper armor and 6k morale. If I have a real tank, it's almost too easy.

There is nothing wrong with Hands of Healing Captains right now, and if you are struggling to heal content as one - it's NOT due to the class itself. I can promise you that.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

I don't have power problems on my Captain Almagnus. Most power problems Captains experience are of their own making, refusing to give up other stats in exchange for ICPR-related attributes.

It's not a class issue, it's a player one.

You asked why, I told you why.

If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

You are simply wrong IMHO.

So what, you're saying that my experience in game is wrong?

That all that I've experienced on my captain is wrong?

How arrogant can you possibly be?

Originally Posted by DuneBug

You've been whining about HoH for awhile, and i'm not going to bite. Go make another qq thread that we need to heal like minstrels.

I remember what it was like pre-RoI when we had the tools and we could throw out a lot more (relative) healing. There was a lot more flex with group composition (thanks to better relative healing power) before RoI compared to what came after RoI.

What's wrong with wanting that back?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You asked why, I told you why.

If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.?

Almagnus... I didn't ask you anything on this. You were responding to a quote I directed at Lohi with this comment. And I didn't say I "didn't like your answer" I simply told you most of the power issues Captains have are because of the player, not the class itself.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

So what, you're saying that my experience in game is wrong?

That all that I've experienced on my captain is wrong?

How arrogant can you possibly be??

Disagreeing with you and giving you my opinion that you are wrong about HoH being weak doesn't really make someone "arrogant" Almagnus. And considering all of the times you have said I've been "wrong" about stuff in the past on these forums, if I'm arrogant because of this, then by that standard you could be called so as well.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Use Song Brother in PvMP?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA

Oh wait, you're seriously suggesting using Song Brother over Blade Brother?

**facepalm**

Uh, dude I agree with you in most things but this is wrong.

Blade brother is probably the worst of the three to be using in the moors. The inspire is #### and the damage boost is not needed with current freep dps levels.

Shield brother is best, but you will have obvious power problems with the myriad of power drains creeps bring to the table. Flies is probably the strongest skill in the game, and the only thing that counters it is song brother. I've pretty much taken to running it 100% of the time if there is another healer in my group.

In any case song brother is 100x more useful than Blade brother out there, due to hard countering flies (and other power drains) and the fact that healing is extremely powerful in the moors with audacity.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Disagreeing with you and giving you my opinion that you are wrong about HoH being weak doesn't really make someone "arrogant" Almagnus. And considering all of the times you have said I've been "wrong" about stuff in the past on these forums, if I'm arrogant because of this, then by that standard you could be called so as well.

I don't think I've ever seen you be "right".

He is 100% correct outside of pvp Song brother is extremely weak in comparison to the other two options. It fills a role which is not needed whatsoever (power restoration) considering that NfW covers pretty much does the same thing but better.

Although I don't know if a full rework is in order just because it doesn't currently fit in this tier of raiding. We could all agree on how useful this would have been in SoM vs. the Lieutenant.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I remember what it was like pre-RoI when we had the tools and we could throw out a lot more (relative) healing. There was a lot more flex with group composition (thanks to better relative healing power) before RoI compared to what came after RoI.

What's wrong with wanting that back?

Our relative healing was better compared to tank HP, but it still sucked.
No finesse = 2x the chance valiant strike fails. And no armor set to make VS cooldown actually worthwhile to use.

Will was the main healing stat instead of might, and crit was divided into melee, tactical and ranged. Obviously stacking melee crit does nothing for your healing, so crit heals were a fluke instead of a regularity. Some people still built for it, but since RO was a ###### trait back then, those people were basically wrong.
No 15% damage reduction on shield brother, and a 15m cd on SotD. 20 minute time of need cooldown.

The only thing we've lost since then is the change to inspire cooldown, which was stupid but put in place out of convenience because poor captains didn't enjoy overwriting their inspire buff and wasting power.

If our healing was so solid, why was everyone running LoM in raids? Because it did the same healing as HoH, while adding a 30s damage buff.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

Uh, dude I agree with you in most things but this is wrong.

Blade brother is probably the worst of the three to be using in the moors. The inspire is #### and the damage boost is not needed with current freep dps levels.

Shield brother is best, but you will have obvious power problems with the myriad of power drains creeps bring to the table. Flies is probably the strongest skill in the game, and the only thing that counters it is song brother. I've pretty much taken to running it 100% of the time if there is another healer in my group.

I'm a bit mystified. Not THAT experienced in the moors yet, but I like Blade Brother best at this point. Shield Brother's main virtue is the SOW (the inspire HOT is nice, but not enough to keep folks up in moors). Unfortunately, the creeps tend to beat on the healers, rather than the tank or target you choose for SOW. Do you SOW the healer??? Song Brother is very nice if you are in a power drain situation (files, standard, etc). But Blade Brother is good. Sometimes the key to a fight is bursting up the DPS, dropping a healer quickly, etc. And the extra DPS push is quite helpful, the modest heals and power restore are likewise good... A bladebrothered champ in a blender situation is great, and a blade brothered hunter when things are ranged or a creep is trying to flee is likewise good...

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I'm a bit mystified. Not THAT experienced in the moors yet, but I like Blade Brother best at this point. Shield Brother's main virtue is the SOW (the inspire HOT is nice, but not enough to keep folks up in moors). Unfortunately, the creeps tend to beat on the healers, rather than the tank or target you choose for SOW. Do you SOW the healer??? Song Brother is very nice if you are in a power drain situation (files, standard, etc). But Blade Brother is good. Sometimes the key to a fight is bursting up the DPS, dropping a healer quickly, etc. And the extra DPS push is quite helpful, the modest heals and power restore are likewise good... A bladebrothered champ in a blender situation is great, and a blade brothered hunter when things are ranged or a creep is trying to flee is likewise good...

I feel that way too - especially in a group:
FB Blade Bro To Arms + Telling Mark + Oathbreaker's Shame = asploded creep

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

I don't think I've ever seen you be "right".

He is 100% correct outside of pvp Song brother is extremely weak in comparison to the other two options. It fills a role which is not needed whatsoever (power restoration) considering that NfW covers pretty much does the same thing but better.

Although I don't know if a full rework is in order just because it doesn't currently fit in this tier of raiding. We could all agree on how useful this would have been in SoM vs. the Lieutenant.

lol... Needlessly, after seeing some of your other posts on this forum I'm flattered that you dont' agree with me often

And Song Brother isn't "extremely weak" in comparison to the other two Brother Skills. It's strength is power restoration. That is it's purpose and what it's good at - and in that does it far exceed the other Brother Skills. And it does it way better than Now For Wrath does as well.

So just as your buddy Almagnus, you are "wrong" in my opinion as well. And I'm not surprised you two see eye to eye on so many other things ^^

Originally Posted by Jeremi

lol... Needlessly, after seeing some of your other posts on this forum I'm flattered that you dont' agree with me often

And Song Brother isn't "extremely weak" in comparison to the other two Brother Skills. It's strength is power restoration. That is it's purpose and what it's good at - and in that does it far exceed the other Brother Skills. And it does it way better than Now For Wrath does as well.

So just as your buddy Almagnus, you are "wrong" in my opinion as well

If Song Brother is supposed to be a power restoration tool, why doesn't To Arms have something to do with power restoration?

Why is Strength of Will -10% Healing Skills Power cost instead of -10% Skills Power Costs?

Simple answer: Song Brother isn't a power restoration tool. All you're doing is polishing a piece of poop and claiming it to be a rare piece of petrified wood.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

Our relative healing was better compared to tank HP, but it still sucked.
No finesse = 2x the chance valiant strike fails. And no armor set to make VS cooldown actually worthwhile to use.

Will was the main healing stat instead of might, and crit was divided into melee, tactical and ranged. Obviously stacking melee crit does nothing for your healing, so crit heals were a fluke instead of a regularity. Some people still built for it, but since RO was a ###### trait back then, those people were basically wrong.
No 15% damage reduction on shield brother, and a 15m cd on SotD. 20 minute time of need cooldown.

The only thing we've lost since then is the change to inspire cooldown, which was stupid but put in place out of convenience because poor captains didn't enjoy overwriting their inspire buff and wasting power.

If our healing was so solid, why was everyone running LoM in raids? Because it did the same healing as HoH, while adding a 30s damage buff.

Yes. We are vastly superior today than we were back in the Moria days. Just the might/crit and other stat changes alone accomplished that, and that's not to even mention the numerous other buffs and shortening of CDs we've received.

The Inspire Spam thing was stupid anyways.... was probably just an exploit in the mechanics. I'm glad they fixed it - so we do disagree there.

I've played HoH exclusively for many years now and I can tell you from my "game experience" that this class has never been better.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If Song Brother is supposed to be a power restoration tool, why doesn't To Arms have something to do with power restoration?

Why is Strength of Will -10% Healing Skills Power cost instead of -10% Skills Power Costs?

Simple answer: Song Brother isn't a power restoration tool. All you're doing is polishing a piece of poop and claiming it to be a rare piece of petrified wood.

It's a "power restoration" tool because that's what it does best Almangus and that's why people use it, to restore power. Pretty simple answer

All the Brother Skills give a mixed variety of buffs. But that doens't take away from it's dominant quality.

Shield Brother - healing
Blade Brother - offense
Song Brother - power