To get his thead back on track, has anyone tried S&B with HoH lately?
Yes, always s&b with HoH. Been 2h'ing for everything else, except for weird misc. stuff like FnF grims.
unless you mean besides me.
I'm a big fan of the 1h in HoH... Endless Heroics shield is my current favorite although there might be a slightly better drop from fire/acid/lightning t2. I forget if it's t2 or t1.
Yes, always s&b with HoH. Been 2h'ing for everything else, except for weird misc. stuff like FnF grims.
I'm curious to know what the measurable difference between 2H and S&B with healing output is. I know that the stats on a shield are (generally) better than the baked in stats on a 2H. Attack speed also factors into skills (as pointed out upthread), as well as a nice survivability bonuse.
So while it looks like it's a pretty big advantage on paper, I'm curious what the observable difference really is. And also, how could you reliably test this?
Originally Posted by DuneBug
I'm a big fan of the 1h in HoH... Endless Heroics shield is my current favorite although there might be a slightly better drop from fire/acid/lightning t2. I forget if it's t2 or t1.
Captain America wears a shield and most recently 1 shotted several extra terrestrial invaders.
Is that before or after Hulk beat the ground with Loki?
Originally Posted by DuneBug
my opinion on the 2h is... if the 100+ dps from a 2h would really be game-changing in that fight, then you should be going red line for the extra 300-400 dps.
My thoughts as well.... I mean, why not push for better healing with a HoH build and leave the DPS for Rainbow and LtC?
i like the sword and board. you get higher stats from it if your healing. & lets face it, with properly traited hunters/champs/burgs/rks in raids. captains dps is nothing so why bother. just get in there, swing the sword, off heal and buff, protect the squishys if need be, leave the dps to the specialised dps classes
The stats you gain from the shield are probably marginal. What, 0.5% more outgoing healing? I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think generally using a 2 hander while HoH would increase group DPS by a greater % than you'd be increasing group heals. You probably don't need to parse the better heals, just the difference in DPS.
But numbers ain't the whole story here. Its the one-hander attack speed thats nice for healing. Thats the draw to the shield. Quicker animation time hitting SotD and WoC. You can't quantify that to make a comparison, so we really are stuck with "I think this is best."
As I've stated before. I measured the dps difference with 1-h and 2-h multiple times and it was of an average of ~100dps while HoH traited. The attack and animation speeds give you more healing but thats something I've not reliably parsed. I would not be surprised if the correct hps number is between 100-150.
I'd never leave my big bad 2hander, red traits, massive crits, good heals and good dps!
Yes i said good dps, get your might n crit up the roof and stop looking at that morale bar and youll be
able to do good dps, 1.3-1.5k dps single target is good imo.
So go out there get a big bad 2hander
Hide that dagger and silly smallish shield or give it to a ministrel instead
-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
Yeah... like +60 might or whatever on the shield is negligible for heal purposes. I actually ran with a different shield for awhile because it had +morale and good icpr... Urdhas-targed But I switched.. Doesn't really matter.
Big fan of the attack and heal animation durations though. Also block is nice.. I wouldn't really care about the blocking ability if we actually had self-heals, but when you can only rely on muster courage and rally cry reducing damage gets important. Also the extra armor does technically add some mitigations :P
my opinion on the 2h is... if the 100+ dps from a 2h would really be game-changing in that fight, then you should be going red line for the extra 300-400 dps.
Well, just a few comments here.
First, I tried casting Words of Courage with a 1-hander vs 2-hander. The animations looked exactly the same with me... so I dunno, this whole "faster animation" argument seems weird to me.
So I suppose people are meaning the attacking animations, so they can fit in heals quicker inbtween swings or something. This sounds like a very minor issue to me, and if your tank is hanging on by such a tiny intervals to where that is such a big problem for you, I'd say that's your real issue there, not rather you are using a shield or broadsword lol
But in any case... even assuming your numbers are correct, 100+ DPS would deffinitely be more "game-changing" in my humble opinion than this whole 'animation difference", which after some testing I have concluded is very flimsy at best.
But bottom line is if you like using a shield great, and good for you. Just because I don't like using one, doesn't mean it's stupid to do. Just don't pretend HoH Captains who don't use shields don't understand how to play their class and we won't have any problems.
The stats you gain from the shield are probably marginal. What, 0.5% more outgoing healing? I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think generally using a 2 hander while HoH would increase group DPS by a greater % than you'd be increasing group heals. You probably don't need to parse the better heals, just the difference in DPS.
But numbers ain't the whole story here. Its the one-hander attack speed thats nice for healing. Thats the draw to the shield. Quicker animation time hitting SotD and WoC. You can't quantify that to make a comparison, so we really are stuck with "I think this is best."
Yeah... like +60 might or whatever on the shield is negligible for heal purposes. I actually ran with a different shield for awhile because it had +morale and good icpr... Urdhas-targed But I switched.. Doesn't really matter.
Big fan of the attack and heal animation durations though. Also block is nice.. I wouldn't really care about the blocking ability if we actually had self-heals, but when you can only rely on muster courage and rally cry reducing damage gets important. Also the extra armor does technically add some mitigations :P
my opinion on the 2h is... if the 100+ dps from a 2h would really be game-changing in that fight, then you should be going red line for the extra 300-400 dps.
We're going to get another shield with the new skirmish. Has 2 doses of ICPR, a dose of Tact Mastery, 2-3 doses of vitality, and something else I can't recall. No might. Struck me as an interesting choice for moors raid healing.
We're going to get another shield with the new skirmish. Has 2 doses of ICPR, a dose of Tact Mastery, 2-3 doses of vitality, and something else I can't recall. No might. Struck me as an interesting choice for moors raid healing.
Sounds like something the S&B capts are going to be fighting with minis for....
I think I've read almost every post on this forum because I too was wondering if it would help.
Here's my thought on the 1H+Shield:
It doesn't seem to make a huge difference to switch from a 2h to using a 1h + shield from what I've read.
I myself have a 2H weapon, and it seems like most other cappies are equipped the same way.
It does not seem worth while to grind a 1-H weapon (getting the most major legacies, runes, exp, omg...) for something that doesn't give you MUCH more healing, or survivability.
As a captain, my main role is to support my other raiding members (which a lot of captains tend to forget about). With the effort into grinding a 1-h weapon, I believe that using that energy for my raiding members would be MUCH more beneficial. Helping my fellow minstrel get their 3 star-lit crystals will improve their healing MUCH more than the little amounts a shield might do, giving runes to my fellow guardian so he can replace his t5 relic with a t8 is going to increase his defenses a lot more than mine, so on and so forth.
Captains will never be the best Healers, DPS'ers, or Tanks. Why waste the time and try to disprove this?
I say stick with the 2-H, and if you have tons of time to grind out a weapon that wont be very beneficial, be a TRUE captain and help the rest of your team.
Thoughts?
I think I've read almost every post on this forum because I too was wondering if it would help.
Here's my thought on the 1H+Shield:
It doesn't seem to make a huge difference to switch from a 2h to using a 1h + shield from what I've read.
I myself have a 2H weapon, and it seems like most other cappies are equipped the same way.
It does not seem worth while to grind a 1-H weapon (getting the most major legacies, runes, exp, omg...) for something that doesn't give you MUCH more healing, or survivability.
As a captain, my main role is to support my other raiding members (which a lot of captains tend to forget about). With the effort into grinding a 1-h weapon, I believe that using that energy for my raiding members would be MUCH more beneficial. Helping my fellow minstrel get their 3 star-lit crystals will improve their healing MUCH more than the little amounts a shield might do, giving runes to my fellow guardian so he can replace his t5 relic with a t8 is going to increase his defenses a lot more than mine, so on and so forth.
Captains will never be the best Healers, DPS'ers, or Tanks. Why waste the time and try to disprove this?
I say stick with the 2-H, and if you have tons of time to grind out a weapon that wont be very beneficial, be a TRUE captain and help the rest of your team.
Thoughts?
Well I'm not sure if I agree with your reasoning, but I agree with your end result. 2-handers all the way if you ask me. 1-handers for Captain just isn't worth it IMHO. I've tried it, and let's just say I never re-equipped a broad sword faster or with more pleasure as I did after a few minutes of using a 1-hander lol
I think I've read almost every post on this forum because I too was wondering if it would help.
Here's my thought on the 1H+Shield:
It doesn't seem to make a huge difference to switch from a 2h to using a 1h + shield from what I've read.
I myself have a 2H weapon, and it seems like most other cappies are equipped the same way.
It does not seem worth while to grind a 1-H weapon (getting the most major legacies, runes, exp, omg...) for something that doesn't give you MUCH more healing, or survivability.
As a captain, my main role is to support my other raiding members (which a lot of captains tend to forget about). With the effort into grinding a 1-h weapon, I believe that using that energy for my raiding members would be MUCH more beneficial. Helping my fellow minstrel get their 3 star-lit crystals will improve their healing MUCH more than the little amounts a shield might do, giving runes to my fellow guardian so he can replace his t5 relic with a t8 is going to increase his defenses a lot more than mine, so on and so forth.
Captains will never be the best Healers, DPS'ers, or Tanks. Why waste the time and try to disprove this?
I say stick with the 2-H, and if you have tons of time to grind out a weapon that wont be very beneficial, be a TRUE captain and help the rest of your team.
Thoughts?
We are there to increase the effectiveness of others. But passing on loot is too much for me. I see what you're saying: for better overall healing, let the mini crystal boost his book 3 times before you upgrade your emblem (or to get back on topic, before you spend time making a specialized one hander). But if its raid time and that particular mini can't make it for some reason (life happens), you're gonna wish it was your significant minority of healing that was boosted by X%.
We are there to increase the effectiveness of others. But passing on loot is too much for me. I see what you're saying: for better overall healing, let the mini crystal boost his book 3 times before you upgrade your emblem (or to get back on topic, before you spend time making a specialized one hander). But if its raid time and that particular mini can't make it for some reason (life happens), you're gonna wish it was your significant minority of healing that was boosted by X%.
I'm going to agree with Omen here (even though you compared me to Will Smith lol)
Yeah... we are a support class. But that doesn't mean we should pass on beneficial loot for the sake of others. I think that's taking our "support" role a little too far. Besides, the better we are the better we make our team as a result. So improving yourself by rolling on crystals ect.. is not only making yourself better, but everyone else in the process as well.
So it doesnt' really make any sense to me to do this. Not even from a "support" perspective.
Err.....
I do not get this.....
I am support (i prefer being called uber DPS ), ok call us support if ya want.
But if i do not upgrade my gear ill be a bad support, it would mean 900 crit buf instead of 1500+ etc....
It would mean id go for a 3rd ager with less points and percentages, meaning less heals, longer cooldowns and less 'support' DPS....
As support we are often the lifesavers, the ones that does that little trick to survive the awaiting wipe.
*** Boost your support i say and survive ***
Pass on loot... never (ofc ToO dont have much sweeties for a cappy except maybe a few at Sauru challenge)
But to get back on topic
S n B is for girls, real men uses BIG weapons, yes size does matter
-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
But to get back on topic
S n B is for girls, real men uses BIG weapons, yes size does matter
lol I agree.
You're earlier points were well said too. Gimping yourself to benefit others just makes no sense. Just because we are a support class doesnt' mean we are any less-deserving of new gear and upgrades.
I was never saying pass on loot, I was making the statement that if you have the extra time to grind out a 1-H weapon for VERY LITTLE difference in gameplay, it would be wiser to use that to help others with their items if they're not maxed out on their LI's.
I would never pass on crystals or any gear that I needed, but you'll definately not be seeing me leveling up a 1-H.
But, I am known to be very helpful with others, maybe too much, but that's what the game for ME is...I enjoy helping others out being the best they can be.
I was never saying pass on loot, I was making the statement that if you have the extra time to grind out a 1-H weapon for VERY LITTLE difference in gameplay, it would be wiser to use that to help others with their items if they're not maxed out on their LI's.
I would never pass on crystals or any gear that I needed, but you'll definately not be seeing me leveling up a 1-H.
But, I am known to be very helpful with others, maybe too much, but that's what the game for ME is...I enjoy helping others out being the best they can be.
Oh I see.
So basically you were saying instead of spending time to level up a 1-hander it would be better served helping others. Ok on that then we can agree.
I was never saying pass on loot, I was making the statement that if you have the extra time to grind out a 1-H weapon for VERY LITTLE difference in gameplay, it would be wiser to use that to help others with their items if they're not maxed out on their LI's.
I would never pass on crystals or any gear that I needed, but you'll definately not be seeing me leveling up a 1-H.
But, I am known to be very helpful with others, maybe too much, but that's what the game for ME is...I enjoy helping others out being the best they can be.
The only thing that annoys me, is that so far everyone who judges the 1h build as worthless has never actually tried a 1h on a captain. You're essentially speaking from a point of complete ignorance.
If you tried it out and didn't like it, that's wonderful. Share your experiences with us.
Otherwise your opinions are basically irrelevant, since you've never tried it.
The only thing that annoys me, is that so far everyone who judges the 1h build as worthless has never actually tried a 1h on a captain. You're essentially speaking from a point of complete ignorance.
If you tried it out and didn't like it, that's wonderful. Share your experiences with us.
Otherwise your opinions are basically irrelevant, since you've never tried it.
I wonder if part of this isn't resistance from some who are going "ah shoot, I need to do this now" over something that's more an optimization than a significant improvement - and stated that way because I haven't seen a way to accurately and reliably test and gauge HPS.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 01 2012 at 01:08 PM.
The only thing that annoys me, is that so far everyone who judges the 1h build as worthless has never actually tried a 1h on a captain. You're essentially speaking from a point of complete ignorance.
If you tried it out and didn't like it, that's wonderful. Share your experiences with us.
Otherwise your opinions are basically irrelevant, since you've never tried it.
I have certanly tested 1h (believe it or not), post above was a bit sarcastic i know
But i prefer a DPS build and my build is to do dmg and crit healing RC !
So there is no option 5 red 2 blue and a BIG darn 2h Sword and i feel good and DPS flows sweet.
-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
The only thing that annoys me, is that so far everyone who judges the 1h build as worthless has never actually tried a 1h on a captain. You're essentially speaking from a point of complete ignorance.
If you tried it out and didn't like it, that's wonderful. Share your experiences with us.
Otherwise your opinions are basically irrelevant, since you've never tried it.
I highly disagree that I'm being ignorant & my opinions are irrelevant. Yes, I agree that I have not used a 1-h and a shield, but I have talked to other captains, been reading on this post, and play the captain class. I have a good idea, I'm not stupid.
The whole idea of the forums are for players to express their ideas and opinions of whatever topic. I was expressing my ideas on this issue, and maybe put another angle of thinking on some other captains. If you disagree, I welcome that, but please do not call me ignorant or irrelevant.
And if you are pro 1-H, as you claim to be, share your experiences with the rest of us, maybe you can give us light on something we haven't thought about yet and make us want to try that build out.
I highly disagree that I'm being ignorant & my opinions are irrelevant. Yes, I agree that I have not used a 1-h and a shield, but I have talked to other captains, been reading on this post, and play the captain class. I have a good idea, I'm not stupid.
The whole idea of the forums are for players to express their ideas and opinions of whatever topic. I was expressing my ideas on this issue, and maybe put another angle of thinking on some other captains. If you disagree, I welcome that, but please do not call me ignorant or irrelevant.
And if you are pro 1-H, as you claim to be, share your experiences with the rest of us, maybe you can give us light on something we haven't thought about yet and make us want to try that build out.
i have, several times. This is not the first time sword + board has come up. This thread is also 8 pages long i'm fairly certain i've posted earlier in the thread. Like on page1. I don't really feel like typing out the same argument so i guess i'll just quote myself.
And yes I am going to continue calling people ignorant if they're going to judge a build before they even try it. I'm pretty sure that fits the definition. The offense isn't intended; But it takes about an hour to create a 2a or 3a 1-hander with base legacies and go run a skraid or foundry with it, and then you'd be 100x more informed than you currently are.
Originally Posted by DuneBug
The 1h attack speed is generally more beneficial than the shield is. But the shield is useful too, as with a captain's high might you'll likely have around 20% block.
I recommend using a 1h/sh while healing, and miscellaneous situations where your damage doesn't really matter... And obviously tanking. I've had much more luck soloing with sword/board than solo'ing with a 2h. (Talking about solo'ing LL trees/spiders and really any other challenging thing).
Originally Posted by DuneBug
...
Big fan of the attack and heal animation durations though. Also block is nice.. I wouldn't really care about the blocking ability if we actually had self-heals, but when you can only rely on muster courage and rally cry reducing damage gets important. Also the extra armor does technically add some mitigations :P
my opinion on the 2h is... if the 100+ dps from a 2h would really be game-changing in that fight, then you should be going red line for the extra 300-400 dps.
Last edited by DuneBug12k; Jun 02 2012 at 01:56 AM.
What gets me is the people that go HoH, then advocate maximizing your DPS.
Why aren't you going down the DPS line, rather than the healing line, if you want the extra DPS?
Or why not go a Rainbow/Skittles build instead?
i don't really understand that either. The difference in hoh between a 1h and a 2h is like 50 - unless for some reason you're hitting shadow's lament a lot.
The only thing that annoys me, is that so far everyone who judges the 1h build as worthless has never actually tried a 1h on a captain. You're essentially speaking from a point of complete ignorance.
If you tried it out and didn't like it, that's wonderful. Share your experiences with us.
Otherwise your opinions are basically irrelevant, since you've never tried it.
I never said a 1-h build was "worthless" I said it wasn't worth the amount of damage you give up to use one IMHO . I go out of my way to say if people like it and want to use it then that's fine with me. And if you read my posts you would have known I actually HAVE TRIED IT, and I hated it. So I'm not speaking from a point of "complete ignorance".
Also - there is a big difference in "maximizing" your dps and caring about it. You can heal just fine as a HoH Captain and still pump out 2-3k crits frequently with a 2 hander, and a lot of us - myself included, don't want to give that up for an insignificant increase to our healing. Captains are great at dpsing and healing at the same time, so it's nice to take advantage of. And the damge difference between using a 1-hander vs a 2-hander is very significant, and a lot more significant than the healing difference using a 1handerr will make for your healing.
Trust me, all of us Captains out there who prefer a 2-hander aren't "ignorant". We know exactly what we are doing.
Also - there is a big difference in "maximizing" your dps and caring about it. You can heal just fine as a HoH Captain and still pump out 2-3k crits frequently with a 2 hander, and a lot of us - myself included, don't want to give that up for an insignificant increase to our healing. Captains are great at dpsing and healing at the same time, so it's nice to take advantage of. And the damge difference between using a 1-hander vs a 2-hander is very significant, and a lot more significant than the healing difference using a 1handerr will make for your healing.
Should the might you have generate enough Melee Offence that the difference in final DPS output between a 1H and 2H in a non-red dominant traiting is pretty trivial?
Should the might you have generate enough Melee Offence that the difference in final DPS output between a 1H and 2H in a non-red dominant traiting is pretty trivial?
It's not "trivial" to me Almagnus. I've compared them, and the amount of damage I lose when I use a 1-hander vs a 2-hander is a big deal. Your critical hits just land a lot harder with a 2-hander, and considering most HoH Captains tend to be crit-heavy - it's a pretty significant decrease damage-wise.
But I may give a 1-hander a whirl again sometime, just to see. But I can tell you last time I used one I was not pleased with the results. At all lol But it's been a while and who knows, maybe things have changed since then, so for the sake of this thread I may just try one out again for fun. And I'll report back on the results.
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